Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer Creatures
Frozen Sick
D&D Beyond Basic Rules
Basic Rules (2014)
Sign in to view your library & saved favorites.
Sign in- Marketplace
Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer CreaturesFrozen SickD&D Beyond Basic RulesBasic Rules (2014)Sign in to view your library & saved favorites.
Sign in
I was revisiting a post about single-turn movement and I made some conservative assumptions about the rules.
Base Speed of 110
Speed Bonuses
Speed Multipliers
Special Modifiers
Basically, should Elemental Epitome's and Charger's Speed Bonuses (+30 total) be multiplied by x8 for Feline Agility, Boots of Speed, and Potion of Speed? I don't think there is any reason why the Longstrider wouldn't be multiplied, but let's go ahead and challenge that assumption too. It looks like for some reason I multiplied Elemental Epitome's modifiers and not Charger's when calculating the final speed, which is strangely inconsistent.
Since this would be the Tabaxi's turn, does Simultaneous Effects mean that I can choose to add the speed bonuses before I multiply according to the other effects?
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
Based on my interpretation from Haste and other movement multipliers ... Bonus Question, I think Charge is just +10 only "When you take the Dash action", so it's not modified by other factors.
Elemental Epitome, however, says "When you use your Step of the Wind, your Speed increases by 20 feet until the end of the turn", so I'd say it's affected by:
- Feline Agility: "When you move on your turn in combat, you can double your speed until the end of the turn..."
- Boots of Speed: double your Speed when you take a Bonus Action
- Potion of Speed (Haste): "Until the spell ends, the target’s Speed is doubled..."
- Longstrider: "The target’s Speed increases by 10 feet until the spell ends"
TBH, it's just my interpretation, but I could be wrong.
If it helps: Interaction of Flat Movespeed Items and Spells vs Speed Increases of Feats, Features and Spells
Charger is +10 Speed when you take the Dash Action. If Simultaneous Effects allows us to change the order effects apply at will (I am not sure it does), then for the duration of the Dash Action, couldn't you choose to add (Speed + 10) x 2 x 2 x 2 to your movement? It wouldn't affect your normal movement of course, just the movement added by the action.
It sounds like you are saying that Elemental Epitome adds 20 feet to your speed before any multipliers. If Charger only adds 10 speed after any multipliers, why would Elemental Epitome add 20 before multipliers (effectively adding 160 feet of movement in this case)? It seems inconsistent.
Or did I misunderstand your response?
From the thread you linked:
The conclusion may or may not be correct, but the rationale is wrong. Charger adds speed, not movement. The Dash increases your movement and "The increase equals your Speed after applying any modifiers."
Normal PEMDAS (Parenthesis, Exponents, Multiplication, Division, Addition, Subtraction) would say that any additions or subtractions would be handled last. You could also argue for the order that the game feature was triggered. However, Simultaneous Effects overrides both, but flipping the order of effects mid turn seems sketchy. Maybe it's not though. Maybe this is the correct and intended interaction...
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
5th edition in general does a lousy job handling effect stacking -- you basically have effects that specifically don't stack (advantage, disadvantage, resistance, proficiency, base AC calculations, and two instances of the same effect) and effects where the rules are silent on stacking (everything else). It would be entirely consistent to say that "double speed" doesn't stack at all -- haste + feline agility + boots of speed = x2 speed -- and the order of static modifiers vs multipliers is not defined, though it's pretty clear that "reduce speed to 0" is intended to be last.
IMO Pathfinder handles multiplicative bonuses better. The basic principle is to treat such bonuses like they are percentages instead, so a "double your X" bonus is instead an "add 100% of X" bonus.
As far as I can tell those rules are directly cribbed from D&D3e, but yes, 3e, 4e, and Pathfinder all handle stacking bonuses better by the simple fact of having rules. There are plenty of places where 5e's choice to leave something up to the DM rather than giving rules is the right decision, but IMO stacking bonuses isn't one of them.
Oh, I understand now... it could be, yes, but my reasoning is based on the Speed already being modified by the feat, magic items and the spell, before you take the Dash action. Let's say it's too late to modify the Speed except for Charger.
I probably wasn't clear in my answer/explanation, sorry.
In this case, it's because following the Simultaneous Effects rule, Elemental Epitome could be applied before.
Even so, to me it's clear for Boots of Speed (since you need to take a Bonus Action), but I guess it's debatable for Haste or Feline Agility if you consider those modifications to have already happened when your turn starts.
I miss typed bonuses.
I can't remember how Pathfinder 2e handles simultaneous effects like this. I believe it would essentially follow a PEMDAS resolution in addition to the clearer stacking guidelines.
The Bonus Action for Boots of Speed is assumed to resolve in a prior turn, possibly the same with the potion of speed or that may have been administered by an ally.
Haste, Boots of Speed, and Feline Agility must resolve before any of the Dashes as they won't retroactively change what movement amount the Dash actions add. If Simultaneous Effects allows Elemental Epitome to apply before the speed multipliers, then I would think it would allow Charger to as well.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
Ah, right! I'm not sure why I thought it activated on the current turn. I guess my brain was thinking about other Actions because of Dash.
I'd agree with that ruling at any table.
They would stack in the order they are applied.
So if Character A has 30 ft speed, then drinks a Potion of Speed (Haste) they have 60 ft speed, if another character then casts Longstrider on them they have 70 ft speed, if they then decided to use Feline Agility on one particular turn they have 140 ft speed.
Whereas if Character B has 30 ft speed, then casts Longstrider on themselves, then drinks a potion of speed they would have 80 ft speed. Then with feline agility 160 ft speed.
Anything that is "always on" like Monk speed boost is effectively triggered first. Only things triggered / initiated at the same moment can be rearranged in the order of the target creature's choice.
What is your basis for this?
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
Because continuous effects don't count as "simultaneous" with everything else that happens in their duration. They occur when they start and then they persist for their duration unchanged unless the effect specifically says it can be changed (E.g. how silent image can be moved). Haste doesn't "happen" at the start of your turn, it "happens" when it is cast. So it doubles your speeds whatever those speeds are when it is cast. The Simultaneous effect rules only apply to effects that occur at the same time - i.e. something happens at a specific time - not for things with overlapping durations.
A Fighter who has been polymorphed into an elephant can't choose to attack as a fighter then transform into an elephant later on in their same turn just because the polymorph effect duration overlaps with their attack action. So a Haste that was cast last turn does not reapply its effects halfway through this turn after you use something else that alters your speed. Similarly if a druid Wildshapes and then is Polymorphed, they stay in the Polymorph form until the Polymorph spell ends they can't decide to swap around the order whenever they feel like it and swap back and forth between the two forms.
I can see that take and I think that is how I initially processed the effects. At the same time, ongoing effects do, at least sometimes, resolve continuously during their duration. Therefore, even in the case you make, there could be cases where Simultaneous Effects affects the ongoing effects. Wall of Fire, for example, is an ongoing effect that could compete with the timing of other effects. Being ongoing or continuous is not sufficient, it must have an instantaneous resolution. However, I don't see anything that calls that out as a rule.
That's not really a valid example though. If [spell]Polymorph[/spells] takes away your class features, you cannot attack as a Fighter. A Wildshaped Druid/Fighter would preserve their class features so that is invalid for different reasons.
A more accurate comparison would be a Rune Knight using Giant's Might after Enlarge/Reduce was cast. However, that example just gets pulled into the same debate. I've seen the advice to use Giant's Might before Enlarge to get to Huge size, but if Simultaneous Effects can apply to ongoing effects, then the order doesn't matter and, frankly, I think that's a better game experience. Unfortunately, I think any truly accurate comparisons get pulled into the same debate and become hard to provide support for or against. I suspect that scenarios like this, involving addition and multiplication, may be the most problematic of the scenarios.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
I remember some of threads about Enlarge/Reduce, if they are useful for this discussion:
- Does large form and powerful build stack for Goliaths?
- Question about combining creature size alterations
- Enlarge/Reduce: How big can we get?
Wall of Fire explicitly states within the spell when it "activates" (i.e. deals damage to creatures), spells that don't have that language activate when they are cast only. Aid doesn't activate at the start of each turn - a target gains the 5 HP max and gains the 5 HP once and only once when the spell is cast - it doesn't end and then reapply every turn.
For Rune Knight, if a creature has been Enlarged, it is now Large size so Giant's Might (become Large if it isn't already) does nothing, the creature is already Large. No different than if the creature was innately a Large homebrew species.
Simultaneous Effects does not apply to on going effects. Otherwise my Wildshape & Polymorph example is entirely valid - both Wildshape and Polymorph are on going effects so if Simultaneous Effects applied then the Druid could decide at any and every moment which order they happen in and thus flip between the two forms in every moment.
Simultaneous Effects refers to things with a described activation time - like Wall of Fire - so if a creature ended its turn in a Wall of Fire but also was inside the area of conjure celestial they could choose to gain the hit points from Conjure Celestial before taking damage from Wall of Fire since they both specifically activate at the end of their turn.
On going effects, that don't have subsequent activations described in the spell, only activate once and only apply their effects once when they are cast. Those effects then simply persist for the duration. They do not reactivate at any later time, they do not reapply their effects at any later time, thus are not simultaneous with any later effect.
The only exception to this are things that specifically set something to a specific value - e.g. Gauntlets of Ogre Strength, or the Grappled condition - those operate separately from things that increase / decrease a current value.
We know that order-of-application is not the way to handle all types of overlapping abilities -- damage modifications have an explicit order of application.
It also has some problems:
It leads to inconsistent interactions -- We're both under the effects of longstrider and haste, but due to ordering, you have an additional 10 feet of movement
It requires much more accurate record-keeping -- if we suspend combat, and note that both of us are hasted and longstridered, that isn't sufficient
It probably doesn't work with the digital tools -- yes, the tools are not the rules, but it increases the bookkeeping difficulty
My personal ruling is to take a leaf from the damage modifiers, and go:
(I wouldn't say somebody who folds charger into #1 is wrong, though.)
Where are you getting that? Many activity-specific bonuses like charger, sneak attack, and smite all get doubled by a critical hit, whereas the linear change of adding your ability modifier doesn't get doubled by a critical hit. Whereas Poison gets doubled by a critical hit if there is no saving throw for it, but doesn't get doubled if there is a saving throw for the poison.
I am taking influence from damage, not copying its rules exactly. The mechanics of damage are much more centered around a single-point event, rather than ongoing abilities like speed is. You don't have a damage stat the way you have a speed stat -- each damage roll is constructed on the fly from the relevant bonuses. Thus, with speed, I differentiate between ongoing abilities and one-offs due to a specific action taken.
Which bonuses are doubled by a critical is because it explicitly doesn't double non-dice. Anyway, crits don't double anything -- they just add more dice, which makes them another linear bonus.
And, as I said:
I think he's just coming up with an order of applications inspired by how damage works. Personally, I'd probably just go
Yes. That's the distinction I was making.
The rest of the discussion was describing how using an order of activation (Such as Enlarge then Giant's Might) can create what feels like a trap.
Since there is nothing actually mandating that resolution sequencing, each table can determine their own method and still be following RAW. Simultaneous Effects is a fine as a guideline for that resolution, so is yours. I think I like jl8e's suggestion best for the consistency.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.