Enlarge/Reduce increases the target's size category by one, from its current size. So, if something is Large, the spell makes it Huge, regardless of what its "natural" size is.
It's important to note that doing it the other way around does not make you Huge, because the Goliath's Large Form feature sets your size to Large, regardless of what it is at the time; if it's already Large, nothing changes.
Wild Shape causes you to adopt the size category of the beast form you're using, so if you are Huge and transform into a Large form, you're now Large.
Wild Shape causes you to adopt the size category of the beast form you're using, so if you are Huge and transform into a Large form, you're now Large.
So even though Wild Shape doesn't cause you to lose concentration on spells, Enlarge would have no effect on it, just because it was cast before the transformation? That doesn't sound right...
Wild Shape causes you to adopt the size category of the beast form you're using, so if you are Huge and transform into a Large form, you're now Large.
So even though Wild Shape doesn't cause you to lose concentration on spells, Enlarge would have no effect on it, just because it was cast before the transformation? That doesn't sound right...
Again, the order matters. If someone cast Enlarge on you after you went into beast form, then it would make you bigger.
It depends if we're talking about the "base size" or the "current size", after alterations are taken into account, when we read these descriptions. I would expect a spell or an ability that "sets" your size to affect your "base size", not your current one (otherwise we get the glitchy-sounding behavior you're describing). You decreed that it should be read as "current size", but based on what?
By the way, I double-checked the description of Wild Shape:
Game Statistics.Your game statistics are replaced by the Beast’s stat block, but you retain your creature type; Hit Points; Hit Point Dice; Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores; class features; languages; and feats. You also retain your skill and saving throw proficiencies and use your Proficiency Bonus for them, in addition to gaining the proficiencies of the creature. If a skill or saving throw modifier in the Beast’s stat block is higher than yours, use the one in the stat block.
As a Goliath, my game statistics says I'm Medium, whether I'm under the effect of the Enlarge spell or not. So as I thought, Enlarge should still have an effect. It's not my current size that is set to "Large", it's the size of my stat block.
Wild Shape causes you to adopt the size category of the beast form you're using, so if you are Huge and transform into a Large form, you're now Large.
Wild Shape does not dispel effects on you, it changes your base size, which can still be further modified by other effects, such as enlarge/reduce. It doesn't stack with Goliath because species traits are not retained in wild shape, and Large Form is a species trait.
I was thinking the same thing about Large Form. Since it's specific to Goliath, it probably wouldn't work with Wild Shape indeed. But while I can't be a Gargantuan Constrictor Snake this way, we agree I can at least make it Huge :)
Another thing I'm wondering is about Giant Frog. If it size increases, does the size limit on his abilities increase too?
Wild Shape causes you to adopt the size category of the beast form you're using, so if you are Huge and transform into a Large form, you're now Large.
Wild Shape does not dispel effects on you, it changes your base size, which can still be further modified by other effects, such as enlarge/reduce. It doesn't stack with Goliath because species traits are not retained in wild shape, and Large Form is a species trait.
If Enlarge/Reduce stacks with Wild Shape used after the spell is cast, why doesn't Powerful Build stack?
When the abilities are used in in that order, either both stack or neither do.
If you are concentrating on Enlarge/Reduce and Wild Shape into a Brown Bear, you become a (still Large) Brown Bear with Advantage on Strength checks and Strength saving throws. and the attacks with its enlarged weapons or Unarmed Strikes deal an extra 1d4 damage on a hit.
If you are concentrating on Enlarge/Reduce and Wild Shape into a Rat, you become a (still Tiny) Rat with Advantage on Strength checks and Strength saving throws. and the attacks with its enlarged weapons or Unarmed Strikes deal an extra 1d4 damage on a hit.
If someone else casts Enlarge/Reduce on you after Wild Shaping or you cast it on yourself via Beat Spells (it has a material component, but it is not costly and not consumed), then you could become a Huge Brown Bear or a Small Rat.
I don't think Large Form from Goliath is compatible with Wild Shape as Wild Shape does not retain your species traits (therefore ending any Large Form effects).
Aside from the space you occupy, the results of changing the order of operations will be mechanically identical.
If Enlarge/Reduce stacks with Wild Shape used after the spell is cast, why doesn't Powerful Build stack?
Because species traits are not among the traits retained when going into wild shape. It would otherwise stack (though mostly irrelevant since advantage doesn't stack, so all it does is increase your carry).
If Enlarge/Reduce stacks with Wild Shape used after the spell is cast, why doesn't Powerful Build stack?
Because species traits are not among the traits retained when going into wild shape. It would otherwise stack (though mostly irrelevant since advantage doesn't stack, so all it does is increase your carry).
And the speed increase. I made the point about the species traits not being retained later in the post, but didn't edit the earlier part. Doh.
Actually, thinking about it more, the fact that Wild Shape is a replacement effect may mean that it will never stack. I will have to think about it a bit more.
Hard to imagine being grappled by a horse or a camel. It's strange how ill-defined this is, given all the obvious thought and effort applied to revamping moon Druids.
They can bite. And the Grappling entry in the Rules Glossary now accounts for non-human anatomy, whereas the 2014 version only mentioned hands. That led to a lot of confusion since the Monster Manual said monsters could use the universal actions listed in the PHB as well, but the 2014 PHB was written for player characters. It then had to be clarified in Sage Advice.
The grappling rule was written for a grappler with at least one hand, but a DM can easily adapt the rule for a handless creature that has a bite or an appendage, such as a tentacle, that could reasonably seize someone. A wolf, for example, could plausibly try to seize a person with its bite, and the animal wouldn’t be able to use its bite attack as long as it held onto the person.
Keep in mind that the grappling rule in the Player’s Handbook requires the Attack action, so a creature must take that action—rather than Multiattack or another action in the creature’s stat block—when it uses that rule. A monster, such as a roper, that has a special grappling attack doesn’t follow that rule when using its special attack
Keep in mind that the grappling rule in the Player’s Handbook requires the Attack action, so a creature must take that action—rather than Multiattack or another action in the creature’s stat block—when it uses that rule. A monster, such as a roper, that has a special grappling attack doesn’t follow that rule when using its special attack
Also, grappling no longer requires the Attack action, but may still prevent the Multiattack action if they cannot use an Unarmed Strike with the Multiattack.
If this was a video game, such behavior would be considered a bug.
Is this RAW? Like, is there a rule somewhere that says that the order matters?
This is the same thing with a rune knight and the enlarge spell. It has never sat well with me that the compatibility or incompatibility of two features depends on the order in which they are applied. That isn't how the rest of D&D works, and it irks me endlessly that it's being played like that here. I wouldn't require an order of operations at my table.
Keep in mind that the grappling rule in the Player’s Handbook requires the Attack action, so a creature must take that action—rather than Multiattack or another action in the creature’s stat block—when it uses that rule. A monster, such as a roper, that has a special grappling attack doesn’t follow that rule when using its special attack
Also, grappling no longer requires the Attack action, but may still prevent the Multiattack action if they cannot use an Unarmed Strike with the Multiattack.
Totally right. Now it's just an option for Unarmed Strikes.
I don't get why there's any confusion about the order of abilities mattering. Each new ability has effects overriding anything prior where applicable. Would you say that a creature under the effects of Enlarge that's then hit with Imprisonment (Minimus Containment) is now Small instead of Tiny while trapped? It's the same argument at its core.
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So I have a Goliath that can get Large Form. It's also a Moon Druid who can cast Enlarge/Reduce.
By default, the Goliath is Medium.
Let's say I use Large Form to become Large, then I cast Enlarge on myself. Do I become Huge?
What if then I Wild Shape into a Constrictor Snake (Large by default). What's my size now?
Enlarge/Reduce increases the target's size category by one, from its current size. So, if something is Large, the spell makes it Huge, regardless of what its "natural" size is.
It's important to note that doing it the other way around does not make you Huge, because the Goliath's Large Form feature sets your size to Large, regardless of what it is at the time; if it's already Large, nothing changes.
Wild Shape causes you to adopt the size category of the beast form you're using, so if you are Huge and transform into a Large form, you're now Large.
pronouns: he/she/they
So even though Wild Shape doesn't cause you to lose concentration on spells, Enlarge would have no effect on it, just because it was cast before the transformation? That doesn't sound right...
Again, the order matters. If someone cast Enlarge on you after you went into beast form, then it would make you bigger.
pronouns: he/she/they
If this was a video game, such behavior would be considered a bug.
Is this RAW? Like, is there a rule somewhere that says that the order matters?
It’s RAW because it’s in the descriptions of all these effects. There does not really need to be a separate rule about it.
Setting your size to Large and increasing your size by one are different things, and the order in which you do them matters.
pronouns: he/she/they
It depends if we're talking about the "base size" or the "current size", after alterations are taken into account, when we read these descriptions.
I would expect a spell or an ability that "sets" your size to affect your "base size", not your current one (otherwise we get the glitchy-sounding behavior you're describing).
You decreed that it should be read as "current size", but based on what?
By the way, I double-checked the description of Wild Shape:
As a Goliath, my game statistics says I'm Medium, whether I'm under the effect of the Enlarge spell or not. So as I thought, Enlarge should still have an effect. It's not my current size that is set to "Large", it's the size of my stat block.
Wild Shape does not dispel effects on you, it changes your base size, which can still be further modified by other effects, such as enlarge/reduce. It doesn't stack with Goliath because species traits are not retained in wild shape, and Large Form is a species trait.
I was thinking the same thing about Large Form. Since it's specific to Goliath, it probably wouldn't work with Wild Shape indeed. But while I can't be a Gargantuan Constrictor Snake this way, we agree I can at least make it Huge :)
Another thing I'm wondering is about Giant Frog. If it size increases, does the size limit on his abilities increase too?
RAW no, though the DM may rule otherwise. However, the giant toad already exists.
Good point... And as a Moon Druid, I can use CR 1 as early as level 3...
By the way, it's a bit off-topic, but if I take the Grappler feat, can I grapple an enemy as part of the Brown Bear Claw attack?
I'm not sure if a bear's paw constitutes a "hand"...
If Enlarge/Reduce stacks with Wild Shape used after the spell is cast, why doesn't Powerful Build stack?
When the abilities are used in in that order, either both stack or neither do.
If you are concentrating on Enlarge/Reduce and Wild Shape into a Brown Bear, you become a (still Large) Brown Bear with Advantage on Strength checks and Strength saving throws. and the attacks with its enlarged weapons or Unarmed Strikes deal an extra 1d4 damage on a hit.
If you are concentrating on Enlarge/Reduce and Wild Shape into a Rat, you become a (still Tiny) Rat with Advantage on Strength checks and Strength saving throws. and the attacks with its enlarged weapons or Unarmed Strikes deal an extra 1d4 damage on a hit.
If someone else casts Enlarge/Reduce on you after Wild Shaping or you cast it on yourself via Beat Spells (it has a material component, but it is not costly and not consumed), then you could become a Huge Brown Bear or a Small Rat.
I don't think Large Form from Goliath is compatible with Wild Shape as Wild Shape does not retain your species traits (therefore ending any Large Form effects).
Aside from the space you occupy, the results of changing the order of operations will be mechanically identical.
How to add Tooltips.
Because species traits are not among the traits retained when going into wild shape. It would otherwise stack (though mostly irrelevant since advantage doesn't stack, so all it does is increase your carry).
And the speed increase. I made the point about the species traits not being retained later in the post, but didn't edit the earlier part. Doh.
Actually, thinking about it more, the fact that Wild Shape is a replacement effect may mean that it will never stack. I will have to think about it a bit more.
How to add Tooltips.
@InquisitiveCoder explained it well here:
Also, grappling no longer requires the Attack action, but may still prevent the Multiattack action if they cannot use an Unarmed Strike with the Multiattack.
How to add Tooltips.
This is the same thing with a rune knight and the enlarge spell. It has never sat well with me that the compatibility or incompatibility of two features depends on the order in which they are applied. That isn't how the rest of D&D works, and it irks me endlessly that it's being played like that here. I wouldn't require an order of operations at my table.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Totally right. Now it's just an option for Unarmed Strikes.
I don't get why there's any confusion about the order of abilities mattering. Each new ability has effects overriding anything prior where applicable. Would you say that a creature under the effects of Enlarge that's then hit with Imprisonment (Minimus Containment) is now Small instead of Tiny while trapped? It's the same argument at its core.