Maybe I am being thick but I am quite confused with the new rules about two weapons fighting.
1) I can't see any reference to the mechanic in the Combat section of the new PHB, does that mean that there is no longer a default Bonus Action option to make an attack with a second light weapon?
2) By reading the 2024 version of the Dual Wielder feat "When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn with a different weapon, which must be a Melee weapon that lacks the Two-Handed property. You don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative". Does this mean that now to do two weapon combat you MUST have this feat? Also is this saying that the weapon in the main hand must have the Light property but not the weapon in the second hand?
3) How does this work with the Nick weapon mastery? "When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn". Does this mean that, in theory, if I am wielding two daggers, regardless of extra attacks and other features, I can attack once with the main hand then, using the Nick weapon mastery, I can attack with my off hand dagger and then, if I have the Dual Wielder feat, I can use my bonus action to attack again with my off hand dagger?
Sorry if I missed some important passage on the PHB and any advice will be appreciated.
Yeah... that rule you're referring to was moved from Combat to Equipment, so you don't need Dual Wielder for this. I think it helps also to clarify your doubts no. 2 and no. 3.
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Light
When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon, and you don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative. For example, you can attack with a Shortsword in one hand and a Dagger in the other using the Attack action and a Bonus Action, but you don’t add your Strength or Dexterity modifier to the damage roll of the Bonus Action unless that modifier is negative.
Oh that's great thanks. This means that, apart from the ability score increase, all that the Dual Wielder feat does now is removing the Light property prerequisite from the the attack with the second weapon?
Oh that's great thanks. This means that, apart from the ability score increase, all that the Dual Wielder feat does now is removing the Light property prerequisite from the the attack with the second weapon?
Yes, but also this:
Quick Draw. You can draw or stow two weapons that lack the Two-Handed property when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one.
3) is a yes you can make 3 attacks without EA - Attack Action, which includes a second attack thanks to Nick and Bonus Action attack granted by Dual Wielder feat. Almost all archetypes in 2024 now have a decent feat that somehow increases their number of attacks. Be it PAM also granting a BA attack, XBE lifting the Loading restriction or GWM giving a BA attack on crits and kills.
What about if you are using two weapons with the light and nick properties, say, two scimitars, then you used your action and bonus action to attack with both. Could you attack with both again if you had the extra attack?
Short answer: no, you only get a single additional attack with extra attack.
Extra attack just adds attack to a single action. Light allows one additional attack. Nick just changes the action economy a bit, but has no effect on the number of attacks.
Short answer: no, you only get a single additional attack with extra attack.
Extra attack just adds attack to a single action. Light allows one additional attack. Nick just changes the action economy a bit, but has no effect on the number of attacks.
Nick explicitly restricts the extra attack of the light property to once per turn.
If you want two extra attacks, you need Dual Wielder as well.
General Feat (Prerequisite: Level 4+, Strength or Dexterity 13+)
You gain the following benefits.
Ability Score Increase. Increase your Strength or Dexterity score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
Enhanced Dual Wielding. When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn with a different weapon, which must be a Melee weapon that lacks the Two-Handed property. You don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative.
Quick Draw. You can draw or stow two weapons that lack the Two-Handed property when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one.
how does having Duel wielding give you another attack added on to Mastery that gives you nick?
Take a closer look. It says "...with a different weapon, which must be a Melee weapon that lacks the Two-Handed property". That's the benefit that part provides: the second weapon does not have to be Light. Without this feat, both weapons must be Light.
General Feat (Prerequisite: Level 4+, Strength or Dexterity 13+)
You gain the following benefits.
Ability Score Increase. Increase your Strength or Dexterity score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
Enhanced Dual Wielding. When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn with a different weapon, which must be a Melee weapon that lacks the Two-Handed property. You don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative.
Quick Draw. You can draw or stow two weapons that lack the Two-Handed property when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one.
how does having Duel wielding give you another attack added on to Mastery that gives you nick?
Light gives you an additional attack
Nick doesn't. It modifies the attack of the Light property.
DW provides an additional attack of its own. Even though it's triggered by using a light weapon, it's still from a separate ability. It's not the "extra attack of the Light property", but the "extra attack of the Dual Wielder feat".
I've been looking at this closely and wanted to get everyone's take with how Two Weapon fighting style and the dual wielder feat work together. From reading the Two Weapon style, it seems very clear that the STR/DEX bonus only applies to the extra attack coming from the Light weapon's property. So at level 5, if you have Nick, you get three attacks during the attack action, all with regular damage bonuses. However, the remaining Dual Wielder attack you perform with your bonus action would not get the STR/DEX bonus. That is how I read it.
from TWF - When you make an extra attack as a result of using a weapon that has the Light property, you...
from Dual Wielder - When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you...
It seems a semantic stretch to say that the bonus action attack from Dual Wielder is an "extra attack as a result of using a weapon that has the Light property". The light property is required for an extra attack from Dual Wielder, but the Dual Wielder extra attack is NOT an extra attack as a result of using a Light weapon.
I will say that this interpretation makes Dual Wielder very unattractive: you have to use your bonus action for an attack without modifiers. I guess if you have nothing better to do with it...
I've been looking at this closely and wanted to get everyone's take with how Two Weapon fighting style and the dual wielder feat work together. From reading the Two Weapon style, it seems very clear that the STR/DEX bonus only applies to the extra attack coming from the Light weapon's property. So at level 5, if you have Nick, you get three attacks during the attack action, all with regular damage bonuses. However, the remaining Dual Wielder attack you perform with your bonus action would not get the STR/DEX bonus. That is how I read it.
from TWF - When you make an extra attack as a result of using a weapon that has the Light property, you...
from Dual Wielder - When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you...
It seems a semantic stretch to say that the bonus action attack from Dual Wielder is an "extra attack as a result of using a weapon that has the Light property". The light property is required for an extra attack from Dual Wielder, but the Dual Wielder extra attack is NOT an extra attack as a result of using a Light weapon.
Look at it this way: If your weapon had not been Light, would you have received the extra attack?
You would not. Thus, you made the extra attack as a result of using a weapon that has the Light property.
It's just like the DW extra attack -- it keys off the existence of the Light property, not the use of its extra attack.
Yes, all the two-weapon fighting stuff is built around close readings of the wording, and it was not a great design choice, but it does hold together.
I will say that this interpretation makes Dual Wielder very unattractive: you have to use your bonus action for an attack without modifiers. I guess if you have nothing better to do with it...
That's a backup argument -- if DW is bad when read this way, maybe the reading is wrong.
There's two different abilities letting you take a Bonus Action to make an extra attack when taking the Attack action and attacking with a Light weapon; the Light property and the Dual Wielder feat. We refer to them as;
The extra attack of the Light property
The extra attack of the Dual Wielder feat
Nick Mastery only modify one of them, the extra attack of the Light property.
The Two-Weapon Fighting Style feat modify the two of them because both are extra attack as a result of using a weapon that has the Light property.
For feat wording only applying to the extra attack of the Light property, see Crossbow Expert compared to Two-Weapon Fighting Style;
Crossbow Expert.When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can add your ability modifier to the damage of the extra attack if that attack is with a crossbow that has the Light property and you aren't already adding that modifier to the damage.
Two-Weapon Fighting: When you make an extra attack as a result of using a weapon that has the Light property, you can add your ability modifier to the damage of that attack if you aren't already adding it to the damage.
The cmbnation of light weapons, two weapon fighting style and enhanced dual wielding along with the thrown weapons allows a L1-4 PC to sometimes get 3 attacks in the first round (at least). I used this example in a different thread but I’ll try to explain it better here. Round. Starts - attack action begins - draw and throw a dagger: drawing and throwing a thrown weapon are part of attack, dagger is a light weapon, activating the light weapon two weapon fighting, the Nick change from bonus action to attack action of a second light weapon attack, the two weapon fighting style and enhanced dual wielding dual wielding which calls for an attack by a light weapon. As the initial attack the dagger gets your stat bonus to hit and damage. movement during attack action - closing on dagger target, while moving you draw a shortsword and a long sword using the QuickDraw property of dual wieldng. shortsword attacks as the second attack of the light property, Nick moves this from bonus action to attack action and TWFS grants you your stat bonus to hit and damage - attack action closes. Short sword grants vex giving the next attack this round advantage. bonus action - since it wasn’t used by light weapon TWF thanks to Nick, it is available for use by dual weapon feat which was activated by the dagger ( or the shortsword) attack so you swing the long sword and hopefully hit. You don’t get stat bonuses added but you do roll with advantage thanks to vex from the short sword.
Now, by my reading of the combined rules you could do pretty much the same thing every round wielding a scimitar and short sword with the scimitar normally going first and shortsword second to get vex on the third attack.
Now, by my reading of the combined rules you could do pretty much the same thing every round wielding a scimitar and short sword with the scimitar normally going first and shortsword second to get vex on the third attack.
Yeah, if you have Nick Mastery and DW, you don't need any tricks to get three attacks.
Attack with weapon A
You attacked with a Light weapon, so both the Light property and DW are in play
Use Nick to use the Light attack with weapon B as part of the attack action
Use the DW attack as a bonus action with weapon B
Exactly which of these has to be a Nick weapon is a question for your DM.
Even if your DM disagrees that both get activated in step 2 (they may be wrong, but they're the DM, so can house rule it), an ABA attack sequence ought to still be permitted, but you'll need two Nick weapons for that.
When dual weilding, you get either two attacks as part of the Attack action. Or one attack as the attack action and one attack as a bonus action. Depending on the combination of Light/Nick/DWfeat.
The interpretation that yeilds 3 attacks is faulty.
The best combo is all 3, and yields an attack with a light weapon + an attack with a non-light weapon and leaves your BA free for something else.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
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Hello,
Maybe I am being thick but I am quite confused with the new rules about two weapons fighting.
1) I can't see any reference to the mechanic in the Combat section of the new PHB, does that mean that there is no longer a default Bonus Action option to make an attack with a second light weapon?
2) By reading the 2024 version of the Dual Wielder feat "When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn with a different weapon, which must be a Melee weapon that lacks the Two-Handed property. You don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative". Does this mean that now to do two weapon combat you MUST have this feat? Also is this saying that the weapon in the main hand must have the Light property but not the weapon in the second hand?
3) How does this work with the Nick weapon mastery? "When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn".
Does this mean that, in theory, if I am wielding two daggers, regardless of extra attacks and other features, I can attack once with the main hand then, using the Nick weapon mastery, I can attack with my off hand dagger and then, if I have the Dual Wielder feat, I can use my bonus action to attack again with my off hand dagger?
Sorry if I missed some important passage on the PHB and any advice will be appreciated.
Yeah... that rule you're referring to was moved from Combat to Equipment, so you don't need Dual Wielder for this. I think it helps also to clarify your doubts no. 2 and no. 3.
---
Light
When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon, and you don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative. For example, you can attack with a Shortsword in one hand and a Dagger in the other using the Attack action and a Bonus Action, but you don’t add your Strength or Dexterity modifier to the damage roll of the Bonus Action unless that modifier is negative.
Oh that's great thanks. This means that, apart from the ability score increase, all that the Dual Wielder feat does now is removing the Light property prerequisite from the the attack with the second weapon?
Yes, but also this:
3) is a yes you can make 3 attacks without EA - Attack Action, which includes a second attack thanks to Nick and Bonus Action attack granted by Dual Wielder feat.
Almost all archetypes in 2024 now have a decent feat that somehow increases their number of attacks. Be it PAM also granting a BA attack, XBE lifting the Loading restriction or GWM giving a BA attack on crits and kills.
What about if you are using two weapons with the light and nick properties, say, two scimitars, then you used your action and bonus action to attack with both. Could you attack with both again if you had the extra attack?
Short answer: no, you only get a single additional attack with extra attack.
Extra attack just adds attack to a single action. Light allows one additional attack. Nick just changes the action economy a bit, but has no effect on the number of attacks.
Nick explicitly restricts the extra attack of the light property to once per turn.
If you want two extra attacks, you need Dual Wielder as well.
So when it says different Light weapon, does that mean I can't dual wield daggers and receive the benefit?
Yes, that's right. "different" in this context means different objects (weapons).
If it's helps:
It needs to be two weapons, but they can be the same type (as long as both are Light). Two daggers is fine.
General Feat (Prerequisite: Level 4+, Strength or Dexterity 13+)
You gain the following benefits.
Ability Score Increase. Increase your Strength or Dexterity score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
Enhanced Dual Wielding. When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn with a different weapon, which must be a Melee weapon that lacks the Two-Handed property. You don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative.
Quick Draw. You can draw or stow two weapons that lack the Two-Handed property when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one.
how does having Duel wielding give you another attack added on to Mastery that gives you nick?
Take a closer look. It says "...with a different weapon, which must be a Melee weapon that lacks the Two-Handed property". That's the benefit that part provides: the second weapon does not have to be Light. Without this feat, both weapons must be Light.
pronouns: he/she/they
Light gives you an additional attack
Nick doesn't. It modifies the attack of the Light property.
DW provides an additional attack of its own. Even though it's triggered by using a light weapon, it's still from a separate ability. It's not the "extra attack of the Light property", but the "extra attack of the Dual Wielder feat".
I've been looking at this closely and wanted to get everyone's take with how Two Weapon fighting style and the dual wielder feat work together. From reading the Two Weapon style, it seems very clear that the STR/DEX bonus only applies to the extra attack coming from the Light weapon's property. So at level 5, if you have Nick, you get three attacks during the attack action, all with regular damage bonuses. However, the remaining Dual Wielder attack you perform with your bonus action would not get the STR/DEX bonus. That is how I read it.
from TWF - When you make an extra attack as a result of using a weapon that has the Light property, you...
from Dual Wielder - When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you...
It seems a semantic stretch to say that the bonus action attack from Dual Wielder is an "extra attack as a result of using a weapon that has the Light property". The light property is required for an extra attack from Dual Wielder, but the Dual Wielder extra attack is NOT an extra attack as a result of using a Light weapon.
I will say that this interpretation makes Dual Wielder very unattractive: you have to use your bonus action for an attack without modifiers. I guess if you have nothing better to do with it...
Look at it this way: If your weapon had not been Light, would you have received the extra attack?
You would not. Thus, you made the extra attack as a result of using a weapon that has the Light property.
It's just like the DW extra attack -- it keys off the existence of the Light property, not the use of its extra attack.
Yes, all the two-weapon fighting stuff is built around close readings of the wording, and it was not a great design choice, but it does hold together.
That's a backup argument -- if DW is bad when read this way, maybe the reading is wrong.
@Ty1234 if I may suggest something: follow @jl8e's leads. He knows really well how Nick, DW, TWF, and Light work.
I also like @Plaguescarred's explanation, which I'm taking from a different thread:
And:
The cmbnation of light weapons, two weapon fighting style and enhanced dual wielding along with the thrown weapons allows a L1-4 PC to sometimes get 3 attacks in the first round (at least). I used this example in a different thread but I’ll try to explain it better here.
Round. Starts - attack action begins - draw and throw a dagger: drawing and throwing a thrown weapon are part of attack, dagger is a light weapon, activating the light weapon two weapon fighting, the Nick change from bonus action to attack action of a second light weapon attack, the two weapon fighting style and enhanced dual wielding dual wielding which calls for an attack by a light weapon. As the initial attack the dagger gets your stat bonus to hit and damage.
movement during attack action - closing on dagger target, while moving you draw a shortsword and a long sword using the QuickDraw property of dual wieldng.
shortsword attacks as the second attack of the light property, Nick moves this from bonus action to attack action and TWFS grants you your stat bonus to hit and damage - attack action closes. Short sword grants vex giving the next attack this round advantage.
bonus action - since it wasn’t used by light weapon TWF thanks to Nick, it is available for use by dual weapon feat which was activated by the dagger ( or the shortsword) attack so you swing the long sword and hopefully hit. You don’t get stat bonuses added but you do roll with advantage thanks to vex from the short sword.
Now, by my reading of the combined rules you could do pretty much the same thing every round wielding a scimitar and short sword with the scimitar normally going first and shortsword second to get vex on the third attack.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Yeah, if you have Nick Mastery and DW, you don't need any tricks to get three attacks.
Exactly which of these has to be a Nick weapon is a question for your DM.
Even if your DM disagrees that both get activated in step 2 (they may be wrong, but they're the DM, so can house rule it), an ABA attack sequence ought to still be permitted, but you'll need two Nick weapons for that.
When dual weilding, you get either two attacks as part of the Attack action. Or one attack as the attack action and one attack as a bonus action. Depending on the combination of Light/Nick/DWfeat.
The interpretation that yeilds 3 attacks is faulty.
The best combo is all 3, and yields an attack with a light weapon + an attack with a non-light weapon and leaves your BA free for something else.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.