This chapter offers a collection of feats, which are special features not tied to a character class.
I interpret “not tied to” as meaning not only acquired through class progression (i.e., obtained via other sources), but this does not imply feats gained via classes are not class features—otherwise, wouldn’t that be as absurd as claiming spells gained through classes aren’t class spells?
The rules do not support any of the above ideas though.
Feats are always just feats. They are never class features. Feats have their own rules. As already quoted, they are "special features not tied to a character class". The idea here is that you could be a member of many different classes and still acquire a given Feat. This is generally not true of class Features. For example, you must be a Barbarian to acquire the class Feature called "Rage". Other classes do not have access to that feature since it is a class Feature belonging to Barbarians. Feats do not work that way. They are not class Features.
The "source of the Feat" does not matter at all in determining if the Feat is a class Feature. That's because a Feat is never a class Feature.
otherwise, wouldn’t that be as absurd as claiming spells gained through classes aren’t class spells?
As a matter of fact, this is certainly possible. Whether or not you gain a spell through a class is actually irrelevant in determining if that spell is a class spell. The ONLY thing that matters for determining if a spell is a class spell is if it appears on the class spell list. Or, if a feature explicitly says that the spell counts as a [class] spell for you.
This is precisely the issue with the Warlock invocations. These invocations sometimes allow a character to gain a spell "through their Warlock class", but that doesn't make them Warlock spells. A spell is only a Warlock spell when the rules state that it is a Warlock spell.
Reading the Converting to System Reference Document 5.2.1, maybe this helps regarding the discussion about whether feats (e.g. Ability Score Improvement) are considered class features or a separate thing:
Feats
Feats “Feats” includes the following new and revised elements, which are presented in the order in which they appear in that section.
Feat Descriptions [New Rule]
Feats are now divided into categories, including Origin, General, Fighting Style, and Epic Boon. All feats in this section are new except for the following revised rules.
Ability Score Improvement [Revised Rule]
This rule is now a feat rather than a class feature.
Grappler [Revised Rule]
This feat is revised and is now a General feat.
Fighting Style Feats [Revised Rule]
These rules are now feats rather than class features.
Reading the Converting to System Reference Document 5.2.1, maybe this helps regarding the discussion about whether feats (e.g. Ability Score Improvement) are considered class features or a separate thing:
Ability Score Improvement [Revised Rule]
This rule is now a feat rather than a class feature.
Fighting Style Feats [Revised Rule]
These rules are now feats rather than class features.
MeatLuggin are feats considered class features or a separate thing? I think the latter.
Record Class Features Look at your class’s feature table in chapter 3, and write down the level 1 features. The class features are detailed in that same chapter.
Chapter 5: Feats This chapter offers a collection of feats, which are special features not tied to a character class. [...] Your background gives you a feat, and at certain levels, your class gives you the Ability Score Improvement feat or the choice of another feat for which you qualify.
EDIT: sorry, I didn't see AntonSirius answer. For me "Ability Score Improvement" is just a way of referring to that particular feature, but it gives you Feat benefits.
EDIT2: edited for clarity and highlighting.
I think an argument that the feature "Ability score improvement" isn't a class feature is unfounded. It's clearly listed as a class feature in the charts for every class, when you gain it is based on class level not character level, and some classes them at different levels than others indicating that it isn't just a character feature like a background. Just because a feature is given to more than one class doesn't exclude it from being a class feature. Are extra attack, channel divinity, fighting style, the spellcasting feature, and unarmored defense not class features?
The only argument I saw on those threads was that it didn't count because there was a degree of separation which is a weak argument. Just because a feature gives you choices doesn't mean the choice you select isn't part of the feature.
Edit: I don't think that this interaction is RAI but RAW I think the wording of the spellcasting features allows you to count spells gained through a choice of the ASI feature as class spells.
Couldn’t agree more.
The sole distinction required for this issue is the source of the feat:
If from a background or species, it is a background feature or species trait.
If from any class feature, it is a class feature.
You're making up your own rule there, not quoting any actual rule. It's a class feature if it's listed as a class feature in the class description, period. You don't get to make up new rules and pretend they are RAW. Nowhere is there written a rule that getting a feat from a class features makes the secondary abilities gained from those feats class features. You are making an inference, that since the class feature gives you a feat, and the feat gives you a spell, then the spell granted by the feat is considered to be granted by a class feature. That would be 100% fine if you were a DM and ruled this, but when talking RAW that inference is not valid. RAW spells granted by magic initiate are spells of the appropriate class, and where there are exceptions to this rule, such as with warlock invocations, they explicitly state an exception which is not stated for wizard, further clarifying that the RAW ruling is also intended. You are both confusing how you feel it should work with how it works RAW.
ASIs are class features (they are listed under class features twice, both in the table and in the description.)
ASI let's you pick a feat. (You gain the Ability Score Improvement feat (see chapter 5) or another feat of your choice for which you qualify., definition of ASI)
Feats are not class features. (Clarification, Ability Score Improvement [Revised Rule] This rule is now a feat rather than a class feature., Converting to SRD 5.2.1)
So a spell gained from a feat is not a class spell since it is not from a class features. Is that right?
ASIs are class features (they are listed under class features twice, both in the table and in the description.)
ASI let's you pick a feat. (You gain the Ability Score Improvement feat (see chapter 5) or another feat of your choice for which you qualify., definition of ASI)
Feats are not class features. (Clarification, Ability Score Improvement [Revised Rule] This rule is now a feat rather than a class feature., Converting to SRD 5.2.1)
That's my interpretation as well. A feat, even when gained through a feature, is not a feature. This is also stated in the PHB:
Chapter 5: Feats This chapter offers a collection of feats, which are special features not tied to a character class. [...] Your background gives you a feat, and at certain levels, your class gives you the Ability Score Improvement feat or the choice of another featfor which you qualify.
Probably calling the feature something else instead of "Ability Score Improvement" would have been good to avoid confusion.
A class’s spell list specifies the spells that belong to the class. For example, a Sorcerer spell is a spell on the Sorcerer spell list, and if a Sorcerer knows spells that aren’t on that list, those spells aren’t Sorcerer spells unless a feature says otherwise.
And examples of "unless a feature says otherwise" could be:
Level 10: Magical Secrets
[...] Whenever you reach a Bard level (including this level) and the Prepared Spells number in the Bard Features table increases, you can choose any of your new prepared spells from the Bard, Cleric, Druid, and Wizard spell lists, and the chosen spells count as Bard spells for you (see a class’s section for its spell list). [...]
Or:
Pact of the Tome
[...] Cantrips and Rituals. When the book appears, choose three cantrips, and choose two level 1 spells that have the Ritual tag. The spells can be from any class’s spell list, and they must be spells you don’t already have prepared. While the book is on your person, you have the chosen spells prepared, and they function as Warlock spells for you.
The rules do not support any of the above ideas though.
Feats are always just feats. They are never class features. Feats have their own rules. As already quoted, they are "special features not tied to a character class". The idea here is that you could be a member of many different classes and still acquire a given Feat. This is generally not true of class Features. For example, you must be a Barbarian to acquire the class Feature called "Rage". Other classes do not have access to that feature since it is a class Feature belonging to Barbarians. Feats do not work that way. They are not class Features.
The "source of the Feat" does not matter at all in determining if the Feat is a class Feature. That's because a Feat is never a class Feature.
As for this above thought:
As a matter of fact, this is certainly possible. Whether or not you gain a spell through a class is actually irrelevant in determining if that spell is a class spell. The ONLY thing that matters for determining if a spell is a class spell is if it appears on the class spell list. Or, if a feature explicitly says that the spell counts as a [class] spell for you.
This is precisely the issue with the Warlock invocations. These invocations sometimes allow a character to gain a spell "through their Warlock class", but that doesn't make them Warlock spells. A spell is only a Warlock spell when the rules state that it is a Warlock spell.
Thanks everyone, just as I thought it worked but needed confirmation 😁
Reading the Converting to System Reference Document 5.2.1, maybe this helps regarding the discussion about whether feats (e.g. Ability Score Improvement) are considered class features or a separate thing:
All right, I think you are right.
You're making up your own rule there, not quoting any actual rule. It's a class feature if it's listed as a class feature in the class description, period. You don't get to make up new rules and pretend they are RAW. Nowhere is there written a rule that getting a feat from a class features makes the secondary abilities gained from those feats class features. You are making an inference, that since the class feature gives you a feat, and the feat gives you a spell, then the spell granted by the feat is considered to be granted by a class feature. That would be 100% fine if you were a DM and ruled this, but when talking RAW that inference is not valid. RAW spells granted by magic initiate are spells of the appropriate class, and where there are exceptions to this rule, such as with warlock invocations, they explicitly state an exception which is not stated for wizard, further clarifying that the RAW ruling is also intended. You are both confusing how you feel it should work with how it works RAW.
So trying to follow the logic train here.
ASIs are class features (they are listed under class features twice, both in the table and in the description.)
ASI let's you pick a feat. (You gain the Ability Score Improvement feat (see chapter 5) or another feat of your choice for which you qualify., definition of ASI)
Feats are not class features. (Clarification, Ability Score Improvement [Revised Rule]
This rule is now a feat rather than a class feature., Converting to SRD 5.2.1)
So a spell gained from a feat is not a class spell since it is not from a class features. Is that right?
That's my interpretation as well. A feat, even when gained through a feature, is not a feature. This is also stated in the PHB:
Probably calling the feature something else instead of "Ability Score Improvement" would have been good to avoid confusion.
Not exactly. The 2024 SAC clarified what counts as a class spell:
And examples of "unless a feature says otherwise" could be:
Or:
EDIT: some recent threads about this topic: