Hi everyone, I was wondering if according to the new rules (OneD&D) a warlock could cast cure wounds with warlock slots if he picked it through the Magic Initiate Origin Feat. Thanks.
(probably a little bit offtopic, so sorry for that, but the next consideration could be useful for the OP)
I agree with @wagnarokkr, but I'd like to add that it's often accepted that spells learned through feats (like Magic Initiate, Fey Touched, or Shadow Touched) or species traits don't count as class spells. So, in that example, the spell you choose wouldn't count as a Warlock spell for you.
This sometimes matters if other features interact with your Warlock spells. Also, the chosen spell wouldn't benefit from your focus. Not the case of Cure Wounds though, as it's a VS spell.
The reason why Cure Wounds is not a Warlock spell in this case is because it does not appear on the Warlock Spell list, and it was not learned via a feature which explicitly makes it a Warlock spell.
The information below details how you use those rules with Warlock spells, which appear in the Warlock spell list later in the class’s description.
The reason why Cure Wounds is not a Warlock spell in this case is because it does not appear on the Warlock Spell list, and it was not learned via a feature which explicitly makes it a Warlock spell.
The information below details how you use those rules with Warlock spells, which appear in the Warlock spell list later in the class’s description.
The problem with that is that means pretty much every invocation(expect pact of the tome) that grants spells would not be warlock spells by that standard. I'm going to go with that is not the intent. So maybe we are reading the rules wrong here. Sorry you made the bad choice of taking armor of shadows you need to carry the material component and can't use your warlocks arcane focus etc.
Maybe that is the rule, but who knows this isn't really described explicitly in any section of the rules, at best we have pact of the tome includes the language therefore the lack of it means it doesn't add to their list.
The reason why Cure Wounds is not a Warlock spell in this case is because it does not appear on the Warlock Spell list, and it was not learned via a feature which explicitly makes it a Warlock spell.
The information below details how you use those rules with Warlock spells, which appear in the Warlock spell list later in the class’s description.
The problem with that is that means pretty much every invocation(expect pact of the tome) that grants spells would not be warlock spells by that standard. I'm going to go with that is not the intent. So maybe we are reading the rules wrong here. Sorry you made the bad choice of taking armor of shadows you need to carry the material component and can't use your warlocks arcane focus etc.
Maybe that is the rule, but who knows this isn't really described explicitly in any section of the rules, at best we have pact of the tome includes the language therefore the lack of it means it doesn't add to their list.
From Pact Magic:
If another Warlock feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, those spells don’t count against the number of spells you can prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as Warlock spells for you.
This covers Invocations explicitly and makes them all Warlock spells when they're cast in the way mentioned. The only question left to ask would be if the feat counts as a Warlock feature because you gain it during the Warlock leveling progression.
The reason why Cure Wounds is not a Warlock spell in this case is because it does not appear on the Warlock Spell list, and it was not learned via a feature which explicitly makes it a Warlock spell.
The information below details how you use those rules with Warlock spells, which appear in the Warlock spell list later in the class’s description.
The problem with that is that means pretty much every invocation(expect pact of the tome) that grants spells would not be warlock spells by that standard. I'm going to go with that is not the intent. So maybe we are reading the rules wrong here. Sorry you made the bad choice of taking armor of shadows you need to carry the material component and can't use your warlocks arcane focus etc.
Maybe that is the rule, but who knows this isn't really described explicitly in any section of the rules, at best we have pact of the tome includes the language therefore the lack of it means it doesn't add to their list.
From Pact Magic:
If another Warlock feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, those spells don’t count against the number of spells you can prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as Warlock spells for you.
This covers Invocations explicitly and makes them all Warlock spells when they're cast in the way mentioned. The only question left to ask would be if the feat counts as a Warlock feature because you gain it during the Warlock leveling progression.
Thanks, I missed or forgot that section.
Edit to add it would also mean if you took lessons of the first one for magic initiate they would be class spells now.
I personally just make it all class spells, I don't think the added twist of needing a component really adds anything to the game. In fact I think it detracts from it. Less fun for no reason. So like it you take magic initiate druid and are a eldritch knight its a class spell for you.
Also, there was a long discussion about whether Eldritch Invocation spells count as Warlock spells for you. Personally, I'm ruling that they do, and they definitely should if you take Pact of the Tome (see Athanar90's quoted rule). But again, not everyone agrees with that: What exactly is considered a Warlock Spell, especially when multiclassing (EDIT: hey, I just realized you were there :D)
The drawbacks could be the one you mentioned, not being able to use your spellcasting focus, or certain features that interact with your Warlock spells.
Also, there was a long discussion about whether Eldritch Invocation spells count as Warlock spells for you. Personally, I'm ruling that they do, and they definitely should if you take Pact of the Tome (see Athanar90's quoted rule). But again, not everyone agrees with that: What exactly is considered a Warlock Spell, especially when multiclassing (EDIT: hey, I just realized you were there :D)
The drawbacks could be the one you mentioned, not being able to use your spellcasting focus, or certain features that interact with your Warlock spells.
It'd be great to get a clarification.
So random question then.
Based on the arguments of those threads and the line "If another Warlock feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, those spells don’t count against the number of spells you can prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as Warlock spells for you."
Does a spell gained through the ASI class feature count as warlock spell?
Does a spell gained through the ASI class feature count as warlock spell?
Personally, I wouldn't count ASIs as "warlock features." Nor would I count any individual feat as a "warlock feature." Even Lessons of the First Ones wouldn't change that, in my opinion. (Regarding that thread, though: people were worried about Shillelagh being eligible for Agonizing Blast, which is a whole 'nother bag of worms...so a lot of the argument there is probably reaching too hard for limitations.)
This is a question best posed to your DM, or to yourself if you are the DM. There are plenty of DMs who effectively ignore mundane material components, for example.
Personally, I wouldn't count ASIs as "warlock features." Nor would I count any individual feat as a "warlock feature." Even Lessons of the First Ones wouldn't change that, in my opinion.
Per strict RAW, I think ASIs do have to be considered class features
1. ASIs are listed on the Feature table for each class at the appropriate levels, as well as in the ensuing breakdown on each class page
Level 4: Ability Score Improvement
You gain the Ability Score Improvement feat (see chapter 5) or another feat of your choice for which you qualify. You gain this feature again at Warlock levels 8, 12, and 16.
Record New Class Features. Look at your class features table in chapter 3, and note the features you gain at your new level in that class. Make any choices offered by a new feature.
No exception is noted for ASIs
The counterargument, I suppose, would be that "general class features" are separate from "specifically warlock features"
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
MeatLuggin are feats considered class features or a separate thing? I think the latter.
Record Class Features Look at your class’s feature table in chapter 3, and write down the level 1 features. The class features are detailed in that same chapter.
Chapter 5: Feats This chapter offers a collection of feats, which are special features not tied to a character class. [...] Your background gives you a feat, and at certain levels, your class gives you the Ability Score Improvement feat or the choice of another feat for which you qualify.
EDIT: sorry, I didn't see AntonSirius answer. For me "Ability Score Improvement" is just a way of referring to that particular feature, but it gives you Feat benefits.
The reason why Cure Wounds is not a Warlock spell in this case is because it does not appear on the Warlock Spell list, and it was not learned via a feature which explicitly makes it a Warlock spell.
The information below details how you use those rules with Warlock spells, which appear in the Warlock spell list later in the class’s description.
The problem with that is that means pretty much every invocation(expect pact of the tome) that grants spells would not be warlock spells by that standard. I'm going to go with that is not the intent. So maybe we are reading the rules wrong here. Sorry you made the bad choice of taking armor of shadows you need to carry the material component and can't use your warlocks arcane focus etc.
Maybe that is the rule, but who knows this isn't really described explicitly in any section of the rules, at best we have pact of the tome includes the language therefore the lack of it means it doesn't add to their list.
Yes, this is a known problem with how the 2024 Warlock is currently written -- if the spells gained through Eldritch Invocations are meant to be Warlock spells, then hopefully it gets some errata to clarify that. All that they have to do is to put a line into the introductory description for "Level 1: Eldritch Invocations" that says something like: "When an invocation allows the casting of a spell, that spell is always prepared". If that was included, then the rule within the Warlock's Pact Magic feature would kick in which says: "If another Warlock feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, those spells don’t count against the number of spells you can prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as Warlock spells for you."
But as it stands, you are correct. Spells cast by using an Eldritch Invocation feature are not Warlock spells unless the feature explicitly says that it is. Among other things, this does indeed mean that the Warlock cannot use his spellcasting focus to cast those spells and they do not apply their spellcasting modifier since they are not casting the spell by using their "Spellcasting Ability". They also cannot use their spell slots to cast those spells to attempt to upcast them, for example. Whether or not all of that is intended is unclear.
If another Warlock feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, those spells don’t count against the number of spells you can prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as Warlock spells for you.
This covers Invocations explicitly and makes them all Warlock spells when they're cast in the way mentioned. The only question left to ask would be if the feat counts as a Warlock feature because you gain it during the Warlock leveling progression.
Unfortunately, this is not true as currently written. The Eldritch Invocations which allow you to cast a spell such as Armor of Shadows do not specify that the spell is "always prepared".
As for the Warlock leveling progression -- At Warlock Level 4, for example, the Warlock gains a Feature called "Level 4: Ability Score Improvement". That feature states that "you gain . . . a feat of your choice".
The Warlock Feature allows you to gain a Feat, but that does not cause the Feat itself to be a Warlock Feature. The Feat is just a Feat and Feats have their own rules which dictate when and how they can be used.
Again, this is just one of many topics regarding the new 2024 rules which would benefit from some small errata or at least some official clarification.
I believe the SAC’s clarification on the Magic Initiate feat helps us understand RAI:
If you’re a spellcaster, can you pick your own class when you gain the Magic Initiate feat? Yes, the feat doesn’t say you can’t. For example, if you’re a wizard and gain the Magic Initiate feat, you can choose wizard and thereby learn two more wizard cantrips and another 1st-level wizard spell.
If you have spell slots, can you use them to cast the 1st-level spell you learn with the Magic Initiate feat? Yes, but only if the class you pick for the feat is one of your classes. For example, if you pick sorcerer and you are a sorcerer, the Spellcasting feature for that class tells you that you can use your spell slots to cast the sorcerer spells you know, so you can use your spell slots to cast the 1st-level sorcerer spell you learn from Magic Initiate. Similarly, if you are a wizard and pick that class for the feat, you learn a 1st-level wizard spell, which you could add to your spellbook and subsequently prepare.
In short, you must follow your character’s normal spellcasting rules, which determine whether you can expend spell slots on the 1st-level spell you learn from Magic Initiate.
The final statement—“you must follow your character’s normal spellcasting rules”—is crucial. This indicates that, under the 2014 rules, spells gained via Magic Initiate are not inherently treated as class spells unless they already belong to your class’s spell list.
While the 2024 Magic Initiate description adds “You can also cast the spell using any spell slots you have”, we can infer that spells from this feat do not join your class’s spell list. Otherwise, the added clause would be redundant, as you could already cast them via your Spellcasting feature without explicit permission.
Personally, I wouldn't count ASIs as "warlock features." Nor would I count any individual feat as a "warlock feature." Even Lessons of the First Ones wouldn't change that, in my opinion.
Per strict RAW, I think ASIs do have to be considered class features
1. ASIs are listed on the Feature table for each class at the appropriate levels, as well as in the ensuing breakdown on each class page
Level 4: Ability Score Improvement
You gain the Ability Score Improvement feat (see chapter 5) or another feat of your choice for which you qualify. You gain this feature again at Warlock levels 8, 12, and 16.
Record New Class Features. Look at your class features table in chapter 3, and note the features you gain at your new level in that class. Make any choices offered by a new feature.
No exception is noted for ASIs
The counterargument, I suppose, would be that "general class features" are separate from "specifically warlock features"
Agreed. In fact, in another thread, we previously discussed this issue but reached no consensus:
Look at your class’s feature table in chapter 3, and write down the level 1 features. The class features are detailed in that same chapter.
However, the Warlock’s(or any other classes) Level 4 feature explicitly grants:
Ability Score Improvement feat or another feat of your choice.
If these feat options aren’t considered class features, could this imply that other customizable options (e.g., Eldritch Invocations, Metamagic, Maneuvers) also fall outside the "class feature" definition?
MeatLuggin are feats considered class features or a separate thing? I think the latter.
Record Class Features Look at your class’s feature table in chapter 3, and write down the level 1 features. The class features are detailed in that same chapter.
Chapter 5: Feats This chapter offers a collection of feats, which are special features not tied to a character class. [...] Your background gives you a feat, and at certain levels, your class gives you the Ability Score Improvement feat or the choice of another feat for which you qualify.
EDIT: sorry, I didn't see AntonSirius answer. For me "Ability Score Improvement" is just a way of referring to that particular feature, but it gives you Feat benefits.
EDIT2: edited for clarity and highlighting.
I think an argument that the feature "Ability score improvement" isn't a class feature is unfounded. It's clearly listed as a class feature in the charts for every class, when you gain it is based on class level not character level, and some classes them at different levels than others indicating that it isn't just a character feature like a background. Just because a feature is given to more than one class doesn't exclude it from being a class feature. Are extra attack, channel divinity, fighting style, the spellcasting feature, and unarmored defense not class features?
The only argument I saw on those threads was that it didn't count because there was a degree of separation which is a weak argument. Just because a feature gives you choices doesn't mean the choice you select isn't part of the feature.
Edit: I don't think that this interaction is RAI but RAW I think the wording of the spellcasting features allows you to count spells gained through a choice of the ASI feature as class spells.
MeatLuggin are feats considered class features or a separate thing? I think the latter.
Record Class Features Look at your class’s feature table in chapter 3, and write down the level 1 features. The class features are detailed in that same chapter.
Chapter 5: Feats This chapter offers a collection of feats, which are special features not tied to a character class. [...] Your background gives you a feat, and at certain levels, your class gives you the Ability Score Improvement feat or the choice of another feat for which you qualify.
EDIT: sorry, I didn't see AntonSirius answer. For me "Ability Score Improvement" is just a way of referring to that particular feature, but it gives you Feat benefits.
EDIT2: edited for clarity and highlighting.
I think an argument that the feature "Ability score improvement" isn't a class feature is unfounded. It's clearly listed as a class feature in the charts for every class, when you gain it is based on class level not character level, and some classes them at different levels than others indicating that it isn't just a character feature like a background. Just because a feature is given to more than one class doesn't exclude it from being a class feature. Are extra attack, channel divinity, fighting style, the spellcasting feature, and unarmored defense not class features?
The only argument I saw on those threads was that it didn't count because there was a degree of separation which is a weak argument. Just because a feature gives you choices doesn't mean the choice you select isn't part of the feature.
Edit: I don't think that this interaction is RAI but RAW I think the wording of the spellcasting features allows you to count spells gained through a choice of the ASI feature as class spells.
Couldn’t agree more.
The sole distinction required for this issue is the source of the feat:
If from a background or species, it is a background feature or species trait.
This chapter offers a collection of feats, which are special features not tied to a character class.
I interpret “not tied to” as meaning not only acquired through class progression (i.e., obtained via other sources), but this does not imply feats gained via classes are not class features—otherwise, wouldn’t that be as absurd as claiming spells gained through classes aren’t class spells?
I believe the SAC’s clarification on the Magic Initiate feat helps us understand RAI:
If you’re a spellcaster, can you pick your own class when you gain the Magic Initiate feat? Yes, the feat doesn’t say you can’t. For example, if you’re a wizard and gain the Magic Initiate feat, you can choose wizard and thereby learn two more wizard cantrips and another 1st-level wizard spell.
If you have spell slots, can you use them to cast the 1st-level spell you learn with the Magic Initiate feat? Yes, but only if the class you pick for the feat is one of your classes. For example, if you pick sorcerer and you are a sorcerer, the Spellcasting feature for that class tells you that you can use your spell slots to cast the sorcerer spells you know, so you can use your spell slots to cast the 1st-level sorcerer spell you learn from Magic Initiate. Similarly, if you are a wizard and pick that class for the feat, you learn a 1st-level wizard spell, which you could add to your spellbook and subsequently prepare.
In short, you must follow your character’s normal spellcasting rules, which determine whether you can expend spell slots on the 1st-level spell you learn from Magic Initiate.
The final statement—“you must follow your character’s normal spellcasting rules”—is crucial. This indicates that, under the 2014 rules, spells gained via Magic Initiate are not inherently treated as class spells unless they already belong to your class’s spell list.
While the 2024 Magic Initiate description adds “You can also cast the spell using any spell slots you have”, we can infer that spells from this feat do not join your class’s spell list. Otherwise, the added clause would be redundant, as you could already cast them via your Spellcasting feature without explicit permission.
Maybe, or they used a more generic statement as they were taking into account multi class spell casters whose slots are not wholly from one class so it was there way of saying no matter what class your slots come from its considered from that class.
They have tons of silly definitional rules that add nothing to the game especially in 2014 and types of attack for example, so sure maybe that is the intent. If I were writing the rule, and that was my intent, I'd add the single line but is only considered a class spell from the class it was taken from. the thing I'd ask is what is the value add to someone's game to run it one way or the other. If someone takes magic initiate druid and is a archfey warlock background wise the spells they picked up with their origin feat are from the fey they made a pact with when they became an adult. Does it really make anyone's experience better there to say nuh uh that's a druid spell.
If there is one specific broken combo with a cantrip is it better to just talk with the player and say, hey that kind of skews the balance at the levels we are playing can you do something else, or have a overarching rule that clamps down on the 99% of things that don't break the game and make it more enjoyable for most players. No maybe I am missing something and the lock into its origin class adds some great roleplaying event into peoples games, I kind of doubt it, it seems more to be a hassle people work their way around but maybe it does. In which case be strict on it I guess.
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Hi everyone, I was wondering if according to the new rules (OneD&D) a warlock could cast cure wounds with warlock slots if he picked it through the Magic Initiate Origin Feat. Thanks.
Yes. The 2024 version of Magic Initiate explicitly says that you can do exactly that: "You can also cast the spell using any spell slots you have."
pronouns: he/she/they
You can do that, though note it would not make Cure Wounds a Warlock spell.
(probably a little bit offtopic, so sorry for that, but the next consideration could be useful for the OP)
I agree with @wagnarokkr, but I'd like to add that it's often accepted that spells learned through feats (like Magic Initiate, Fey Touched, or Shadow Touched) or species traits don't count as class spells. So, in that example, the spell you choose wouldn't count as a Warlock spell for you.
This sometimes matters if other features interact with your Warlock spells. Also, the chosen spell wouldn't benefit from your focus. Not the case of Cure Wounds though, as it's a VS spell.
EDIT: ninja'd by @kenclary
The reason why Cure Wounds is not a Warlock spell in this case is because it does not appear on the Warlock Spell list, and it was not learned via a feature which explicitly makes it a Warlock spell.
The problem with that is that means pretty much every invocation(expect pact of the tome) that grants spells would not be warlock spells by that standard. I'm going to go with that is not the intent. So maybe we are reading the rules wrong here. Sorry you made the bad choice of taking armor of shadows you need to carry the material component and can't use your warlocks arcane focus etc.
Maybe that is the rule, but who knows this isn't really described explicitly in any section of the rules, at best we have pact of the tome includes the language therefore the lack of it means it doesn't add to their list.
From Pact Magic:
This covers Invocations explicitly and makes them all Warlock spells when they're cast in the way mentioned. The only question left to ask would be if the feat counts as a Warlock feature because you gain it during the Warlock leveling progression.
Thanks, I missed or forgot that section.
Edit to add it would also mean if you took lessons of the first one for magic initiate they would be class spells now.
I personally just make it all class spells, I don't think the added twist of needing a component really adds anything to the game. In fact I think it detracts from it. Less fun for no reason. So like it you take magic initiate druid and are a eldritch knight its a class spell for you.
For fairness sake, not everyone agrees with that Does Lessons of the first ones, Agonizing blast, and Magic initiate (Druid) work together to create the best melee weapon?
Also, there was a long discussion about whether Eldritch Invocation spells count as Warlock spells for you. Personally, I'm ruling that they do, and they definitely should if you take Pact of the Tome (see Athanar90's quoted rule). But again, not everyone agrees with that: What exactly is considered a Warlock Spell, especially when multiclassing (EDIT: hey, I just realized you were there :D)
The drawbacks could be the one you mentioned, not being able to use your spellcasting focus, or certain features that interact with your Warlock spells.
It'd be great to get a clarification.
So random question then.
Based on the arguments of those threads and the line "If another Warlock feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, those spells don’t count against the number of spells you can prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as Warlock spells for you."
Does a spell gained through the ASI class feature count as warlock spell?
You're better off going back and posting in those threads, no one can give a definitive answer here as (IIRC) there was no consensus reached.
Personally, I wouldn't count ASIs as "warlock features." Nor would I count any individual feat as a "warlock feature." Even Lessons of the First Ones wouldn't change that, in my opinion. (Regarding that thread, though: people were worried about Shillelagh being eligible for Agonizing Blast, which is a whole 'nother bag of worms...so a lot of the argument there is probably reaching too hard for limitations.)
This is a question best posed to your DM, or to yourself if you are the DM. There are plenty of DMs who effectively ignore mundane material components, for example.
Per strict RAW, I think ASIs do have to be considered class features
1. ASIs are listed on the Feature table for each class at the appropriate levels, as well as in the ensuing breakdown on each class page
2. The Gaining a Level section of the rules also says
No exception is noted for ASIs
The counterargument, I suppose, would be that "general class features" are separate from "specifically warlock features"
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
MeatLuggin are feats considered class features or a separate thing? I think the latter.
EDIT: sorry, I didn't see AntonSirius answer. For me "Ability Score Improvement" is just a way of referring to that particular feature, but it gives you Feat benefits.
EDIT2: edited for clarity and highlighting.
Yes, this is a known problem with how the 2024 Warlock is currently written -- if the spells gained through Eldritch Invocations are meant to be Warlock spells, then hopefully it gets some errata to clarify that. All that they have to do is to put a line into the introductory description for "Level 1: Eldritch Invocations" that says something like: "When an invocation allows the casting of a spell, that spell is always prepared". If that was included, then the rule within the Warlock's Pact Magic feature would kick in which says: "If another Warlock feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, those spells don’t count against the number of spells you can prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as Warlock spells for you."
But as it stands, you are correct. Spells cast by using an Eldritch Invocation feature are not Warlock spells unless the feature explicitly says that it is. Among other things, this does indeed mean that the Warlock cannot use his spellcasting focus to cast those spells and they do not apply their spellcasting modifier since they are not casting the spell by using their "Spellcasting Ability". They also cannot use their spell slots to cast those spells to attempt to upcast them, for example. Whether or not all of that is intended is unclear.
Unfortunately, this is not true as currently written. The Eldritch Invocations which allow you to cast a spell such as Armor of Shadows do not specify that the spell is "always prepared".
As for the Warlock leveling progression -- At Warlock Level 4, for example, the Warlock gains a Feature called "Level 4: Ability Score Improvement". That feature states that "you gain . . . a feat of your choice".
The Warlock Feature allows you to gain a Feat, but that does not cause the Feat itself to be a Warlock Feature. The Feat is just a Feat and Feats have their own rules which dictate when and how they can be used.
Again, this is just one of many topics regarding the new 2024 rules which would benefit from some small errata or at least some official clarification.
I believe the SAC’s clarification on the Magic Initiate feat helps us understand RAI:
The final statement—“you must follow your character’s normal spellcasting rules”—is crucial. This indicates that, under the 2014 rules, spells gained via Magic Initiate are not inherently treated as class spells unless they already belong to your class’s spell list.
While the 2024 Magic Initiate description adds “You can also cast the spell using any spell slots you have”, we can infer that spells from this feat do not join your class’s spell list. Otherwise, the added clause would be redundant, as you could already cast them via your Spellcasting feature without explicit permission.
Agreed. In fact, in another thread, we previously discussed this issue but reached no consensus:
I think an argument that the feature "Ability score improvement" isn't a class feature is unfounded. It's clearly listed as a class feature in the charts for every class, when you gain it is based on class level not character level, and some classes them at different levels than others indicating that it isn't just a character feature like a background. Just because a feature is given to more than one class doesn't exclude it from being a class feature. Are extra attack, channel divinity, fighting style, the spellcasting feature, and unarmored defense not class features?
The only argument I saw on those threads was that it didn't count because there was a degree of separation which is a weak argument. Just because a feature gives you choices doesn't mean the choice you select isn't part of the feature.
Edit: I don't think that this interaction is RAI but RAW I think the wording of the spellcasting features allows you to count spells gained through a choice of the ASI feature as class spells.
Couldn’t agree more.
The sole distinction required for this issue is the source of the feat:
If from a background or species, it is a background feature or species trait.
If from any class feature, it is a class feature.
Regarding TarodNet’s citation:
I interpret “not tied to” as meaning not only acquired through class progression (i.e., obtained via other sources), but this does not imply feats gained via classes are not class features—otherwise, wouldn’t that be as absurd as claiming spells gained through classes aren’t class spells?
Maybe, or they used a more generic statement as they were taking into account multi class spell casters whose slots are not wholly from one class so it was there way of saying no matter what class your slots come from its considered from that class.
They have tons of silly definitional rules that add nothing to the game especially in 2014 and types of attack for example, so sure maybe that is the intent. If I were writing the rule, and that was my intent, I'd add the single line but is only considered a class spell from the class it was taken from. the thing I'd ask is what is the value add to someone's game to run it one way or the other. If someone takes magic initiate druid and is a archfey warlock background wise the spells they picked up with their origin feat are from the fey they made a pact with when they became an adult. Does it really make anyone's experience better there to say nuh uh that's a druid spell.
If there is one specific broken combo with a cantrip is it better to just talk with the player and say, hey that kind of skews the balance at the levels we are playing can you do something else, or have a overarching rule that clamps down on the 99% of things that don't break the game and make it more enjoyable for most players. No maybe I am missing something and the lock into its origin class adds some great roleplaying event into peoples games, I kind of doubt it, it seems more to be a hassle people work their way around but maybe it does. In which case be strict on it I guess.