First off, I am one of those players that likes to put flavour over min/maxing (at least to a point)
That said, I am currently working on an AL character that I plan to eventually use to dual wield whips while Bladesinging.
One strategy is going to be to utilize Spell Sniper to hit an enemy with Booming Blade at 10ft range, thus making them have to move in order to hit attack me.
My question is on the type of tactics I can use to make whips better (since they unfortunately have low damage). Specifically, this time with the Shove action. Since this action can be used to either push a target back or knock them prone, I am wondering if you can use the Whip's reach to essentially trip (shove) an enemy and knock them flat at 10 ft.
I am also interested in hearing if anyone else has any other strategies/tactics
if you can spare 3 levels for battle master you could take the maneuver that trips enemies or you could grab the feat that lets you take a couple maneuvers.
A three level dip into fighter does sound doable as I will still get my 9th level spells and 4 ASI/Feats.
I may take the 4th level in Fighter though depending on if I need that one 9th level spell or a 5th ASI/Feat.
Right now though, I'm only 2nd level, so plenty of time between now and then.
Considered taking either High Elf (Moon heritage for flavour) or a Half Elf Variant with the Fleet Feet ability to boost base speed to 35 (which becomes 90 when Bladesong and Haste are active (in that order)).
Took my first level in Fighter to grab the gear (which was spent to purchase Studded Leather, Shortswords, Whips and other desired gear), proficiencies and Second Wind.
Second level went straight to Wizard and now I'm 200XP from level 3.
Plan is to dedicate the next 4 levels into Wizard for 3rd level spells (Haste being primary) and either an ASI to bump INT to 18, Resiliency to boost Dex to 18, Dual Wielding to dual wield non light weapons, War Caster or Spell Sniper to increase range on cantrips.
After that, at least 1 into Fighter for Action Surge, though may go 3 to get my next ASI/Feat at level 9.
By rule, I'd say yes, you can use the reach of your weapon, whatever your weapon is, to make a Shove attack.
Glad I found this thread, while talking to one of my players about potential uses for Warlock Pact Blade I offhanded mentioned you could even turn it into a whip. To which his eyes lit up a bit and We then went looking to what you could do with the whip. Disappointed by a lack of anything besides the finesse and reach on it we were spitballing how we could handle using the whip to trip and such. Using it as a shove attack solves many of the questions we were asking, although since it is finesse I don't feel it would be out of the question to allow using Acrobatics vs athletics for the opposed check. Reasoning being knocking someone off balance isn't always about raw strength as can just as easily be about timing, or taking advantage of which foot they are balanced on. If it comes into play frequently I am curious how fun it will be, Looking forward to seeing him use it in action.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
Physics as they exist in the real world are proven repeatedly to be incompatible with table-top role-playing game rules.
This is why it is possible for the games to include such not physically possible events as, but not limited to:
20' tall humanoids with human body proportions, which is like having a proportionately identical greyhound dog that is as tall as an elephant.
Blasts of fire that don't carry any risk of starting anything on fire.
Weaponry and armor that never needs repair or replacement no matter how many times it gets used in battle... unless you battle just the right sort of creature like a black pudding or a rust monster.
Magical lightning that doesn't behave even remotely like real electrical current, allowing for precision aiming and zero unintended arcing no matter the local environment.
Of course, the question then rises "What should be done about this?". To that question, I answer "Forget the physics talk and just have fun with the game." because I am far too lazy to do the other thing that would similarly solve the issue, which is to write an immense house-rule document that carefully brought every detail of the game in-line with whatever knowledge of the current understanding of physics I could accumulate through personal study and research.
Physics as they exist in the real world are proven repeatedly to be incompatible with table-top role-playing game rules.
I was about to do a full paragraph with half orcs and warlocks balancing on dragon's heads etc, and only the pushback effect of the whip causing me suspension of disbelief issues....but you seem to have covered that. :) You know, negating my original point?
Arguing is more fun though, so..........
The specific character mentioned is for use in AL play, in which case I suspect the random DMs that will be encountered over the course of this PC's career will be many and varied - do you really want to spend the first ten minutes of every session arguing with the DM over whether you can push with a whip?
It's not quite the same, but try pushing someone with a fencing foil - the blade will snap before you move an adult backwards. Hit someone with a Karate Chop and you are unlikely to knock them back 5 foot. There are techniques to thrust an opponent away, but the moves are slower and require you to be much closer.
A standard whip is not a weapon. Yes, you might be able to take someone's eye out with one, but as weapons go, I'd rather have a sock filled with hard toffees.
...do you really want to spend the first ten minutes of every session arguing with the DM over whether you can push with a whip?
Nope, and thanks to the rules and guidelines of the Adventurer's League, no such arguments should be happening.
AL DMs aren't given free-reign to make whatever call they feel like making, so the rules apply as written, with the only alterations to them being the ones made by the Adventurer's League itself. So the topic of "can I push with a whip?" comes down to just two questions: Can you push with a weapon in general?; and Is there any special exception present in the rules for whips or the Adventurer's League guidelines? No argument at all.
Ok. so the PHB defines the whip as a weapon, and furthermore, as effective as a low-level monk's fist or open hand. So yes, under the rules, the whip can be used to pushback/shove.
But normal, non-magical whips would be about as useful as origami platemail. Unless, the platemail was made from quality card rather than paper, in which case it might be worth having if you are ever attacked by a crack squad of whipists. (I say 'Crack' as I suspect that is what they are on.)
Magical, flaming whips are a thing of beauty - I would not argue with The Balrog, Nathan Garrett, Qurrah Tun, or Fury from Darksiders 3. Freezing whips, acid whips, sonic whips (Crack!), Whips of Mighty Morphing, even Vorpal Whips, I can get on board with, but normal whips are only scary to one-inch fire elementals standing on pedestals of wax that are exactly 7.13 metres away.
Maybe you push someone back with a whip by cracking it in their face and making them jump back?
Although I personally was not planning to allow an actual pushback I was looking at moving them to the sides or prone mostly, Mathias makes a good point. A crack of the whip an inch away from someones face would probably make them move back involuntarily, just as much as pulling them off balance would move them horizontally to regain their footing.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
He was arguing against a whip being able to knock a person AWAY from you, I don't think they have said anything against using it to trip/knock prone.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
Maybe you push someone back with a whip by cracking it in their face and making them jump back?
Yeah this is what I was thinking. I don't think a shove necessarily means you're literally pushing them with the weapon, its just a maneuver you're doing which, one way or another, forces your opponent to move in a direction you want.
Maybe you push someone back with a whip by cracking it in their face and making them jump back?
Yeah this is what I was thinking. I don't think a shove necessarily means you're literally pushing them with the weapon, its just a maneuver you're doing which, one way or another, forces your opponent to move in a direction you want.
I was going with the OP's shove to push away or make them prone. If they are prone you have advantage on attacks while they are prone.
Relating to whips, I'd personally houserule that whips should count as light weapons, to make them a decent off-hand weapon. Low damage, but getting a reach weapon in your off-hand? Hell yeah.
...Though I don't think that would be AL legal, so nevermind.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
First off, I am one of those players that likes to put flavour over min/maxing (at least to a point)
That said, I am currently working on an AL character that I plan to eventually use to dual wield whips while Bladesinging.
One strategy is going to be to utilize Spell Sniper to hit an enemy with Booming Blade at 10ft range, thus making them have to move in order to hit attack me.
My question is on the type of tactics I can use to make whips better (since they unfortunately have low damage). Specifically, this time with the Shove action. Since this action can be used to either push a target back or knock them prone, I am wondering if you can use the Whip's reach to essentially trip (shove) an enemy and knock them flat at 10 ft.
I am also interested in hearing if anyone else has any other strategies/tactics
By rule, I'd say yes, you can use the reach of your weapon, whatever your weapon is, to make a Shove attack.
I think that is a great concept and that Filcat is right.
She/Her College Student Player and Dungeon Master
if you can spare 3 levels for battle master you could take the maneuver that trips enemies or you could grab the feat that lets you take a couple maneuvers.
A three level dip into fighter does sound doable as I will still get my 9th level spells and 4 ASI/Feats.
I may take the 4th level in Fighter though depending on if I need that one 9th level spell or a 5th ASI/Feat.
Right now though, I'm only 2nd level, so plenty of time between now and then.
Considered taking either High Elf (Moon heritage for flavour) or a Half Elf Variant with the Fleet Feet ability to boost base speed to 35 (which becomes 90 when Bladesong and Haste are active (in that order)).
Took my first level in Fighter to grab the gear (which was spent to purchase Studded Leather, Shortswords, Whips and other desired gear), proficiencies and Second Wind.
Second level went straight to Wizard and now I'm 200XP from level 3.
Plan is to dedicate the next 4 levels into Wizard for 3rd level spells (Haste being primary) and either an ASI to bump INT to 18, Resiliency to boost Dex to 18, Dual Wielding to dual wield non light weapons, War Caster or Spell Sniper to increase range on cantrips.
After that, at least 1 into Fighter for Action Surge, though may go 3 to get my next ASI/Feat at level 9.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
Roleplaying since Runequest.
Roleplaying since Runequest.
Physics as they exist in the real world are proven repeatedly to be incompatible with table-top role-playing game rules.
This is why it is possible for the games to include such not physically possible events as, but not limited to:
Of course, the question then rises "What should be done about this?". To that question, I answer "Forget the physics talk and just have fun with the game." because I am far too lazy to do the other thing that would similarly solve the issue, which is to write an immense house-rule document that carefully brought every detail of the game in-line with whatever knowledge of the current understanding of physics I could accumulate through personal study and research.
Hit someone with a Karate Chop and you are unlikely to knock them back 5 foot. There are techniques to thrust an opponent away, but the moves are slower and require you to be much closer.
Roleplaying since Runequest.
Ok. so the PHB defines the whip as a weapon, and furthermore, as effective as a low-level monk's fist or open hand.
So yes, under the rules, the whip can be used to pushback/shove.
But normal, non-magical whips would be about as useful as origami platemail. Unless, the platemail was made from quality card rather than paper, in which case it might be worth having if you are ever attacked by a crack squad of whipists. (I say 'Crack' as I suspect that is what they are on.)
Magical, flaming whips are a thing of beauty - I would not argue with The Balrog, Nathan Garrett, Qurrah Tun, or Fury from Darksiders 3. Freezing whips, acid whips, sonic whips (Crack!), Whips of Mighty Morphing, even Vorpal Whips, I can get on board with, but normal whips are only scary to one-inch fire elementals standing on pedestals of wax that are exactly 7.13 metres away.
I'm just trying to keep fantasy real.
Roleplaying since Runequest.
Maybe you push someone back with a whip by cracking it in their face and making them jump back?
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Tooltips (Help/aid)
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
He was arguing against a whip being able to knock a person AWAY from you, I don't think they have said anything against using it to trip/knock prone.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
Relating to whips, I'd personally houserule that whips should count as light weapons, to make them a decent off-hand weapon. Low damage, but getting a reach weapon in your off-hand? Hell yeah.
...Though I don't think that would be AL legal, so nevermind.