Hi all! I'm prepping a character for an upcoming campaign and I'm seeking some race advice.
The character will start as a Rogue, but only 1 level for the purposes of the extra starting skill and Expertise (in Deception and Performance). The character is a charlatan circus performer who does some basic sleight of hand stuff before coming to the realization that magic opens the door to bigger and better stuff via Illusions. At level 2 I'll multiclass to a Wizard Illusionist and never look back (maybe 1 more level at some point on Rogue for Cunning Action). As such, I'm very interested in the thaumaturgy cantrip, and tieflings get it for free, along with some other good racial benefits such as Dark Vision and fire resistance. They also get +2 to charisma and +1 to Int, the 2 stats I would like to be primary for this character. Between the level of Rogue and the Entertainer background I'll have a solid core of skills to employ.
On the other hand, I am considering variant human with the Magic Initiate feat. At the cost of the racial benefits, and 1 less stat point in charisma, I'd get an extra skill, 2 cantrips at will (one of which would be thaumaturgy), and a 1st level spell once per long rest. This feels kinda good, because I can already dabble in magic despite starting in a generally non-magical class.
I'd certainly appreciate any thoughts on the subject, though I understand that this may be a case of pros and cons for both. Thanks!
P.S. Stats haven't been rolled yet, though they don't really factor much into the decision making progress for this topic.
have you thought about a Forest Gnome. +2 to intelligence, +1 to dexterity, darkvision, and you get the minor illusion cantrip for free. You don't get the extra charisma, but you do get a boost to the main stat of the two classes you are choosing.
As for the two races you mentioned, they both sound fine. Human Variant is always a strong choice with getting a feat at level 1. Tieflings are fine as well. The one thing I'd check with your DM on is how NPCs will react to a Tiefling. Infernal legacy can be detriment to how others see you. Still, you'd probably fit right in at a circus.
Thanks for the thoughts, Meph. Right after posting I had noticed the Forest Gnome, but I'm primarily interested in thaumaturgy, which means either tiefling or Magic Initiate, due to it being a cleric only cantrip. I feel like it combos nicely with prestidigitation and Minor Illusion (which I get for free as a 2nd level illusionist) for putting on shows. Anything Dex related would be a perk.
May I ask why you want to go for wizard/illusionist? If you want to go full charisma based you could go sorcerer as well. Things like subtle spell and other metamagic would work great for the concept I think. If you go rogue/wizard/charlatan you probably want high dex/int/cha respectively, whereas with a rogue/sorcerer/charlatan you can go dex/cha so it saves you from being to Multiple Attribute Dependant.
Ty for the suggestion Raj! Let me clarify, as I wrote the initial post somewhat hastily. When I referenced charlatan I didn't even realize there was a Background for it lol and it's perhaps too strong a word. I meant it as in a person who does sleight of hand or forced perspective illusions, as opposed to the real deal (someone who crafts magical illusions). I suppose the main reason for being an Illusionist is because that's the best person to specialize in illusions. The 6th level and 14th level school bonuses are pretty sweet; the former for entertainment and the latter for utility. Also, a Wizard starts with far more spells known, and progresses at 2 per level, ending with significantly more options than the sorcerer. While my specialty will be illusions, and my character won't be dabbling heavy into any sort of battle magic, I still prefer to have options.
As far as Dex, I'm only taking my 1st level as a Rogue to get extra starting skills, as well as Expertise. I'm not worried about Dex-related things long term. Taking a high charisma is more for flavor, and for bonuses to Deception and Performance (the 2 skills I'll be using Expertise for). So that overall makes me less MAD.
I'd recommend taking a good long look at Bard. It actually has a lot of the flavor you're looking for, without a multi-class. Yuan-ti pureblood might be a good race if you choose bard MC wizard, as you can have both excellent int and char.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tiefling is likely better than Human. Darkvision on everyone in the party is the difference between actually being stealthy, and carrying around a glowing light source saying 'hey, not only is someone around, but they're Right Here' at all times. Darkvision is a 2nd level spell, and by the time you don't mind not only having a spell for darkvision, but actually using it, you'll be 5th level. Even then, trading a 2nd level spell slot for an extra cantrip and a 1st level spell slot seems not worth it to me.
Variant Human is certainly not Wrong, and arguments could be made for it, *especially* if someone else in the party already lacks darkvision and so your party is going to be running around under light at all times anyway. However I believe Tiefling is the better choice, and the more flavorful one, personally. I'm likely biased though, I hate playing as humans.
Anyways, I tend to recommend against variant human for most classes. While the extra feat is very attractive to many, I find that its no match for other racial benefits, such as darkvision, the ability to communicate with your familiar (forest gnome), fire/poison/necrotic/charm resistances (tiefling/dwarf/aasimar/elf+gnome respectively).
Illusionists tend to work alongside rogues as side-scouts, working a bit into that kind of mentality with their invisibility and other stealth enhancements. And, let me tell you that darkvision is a huge, huge, HUGE boon for them.
TY for the the replies, though now I'm feeling even more indecisive lol
Regarding Thaumaturgy, I feel like having 3 cantrips that all synergize means that within 18 seconds I can craft a visual illusion, give it sound and even smell. (a non-combat 18 seconds that is lol ) I suppose it's not a deal breaker.
As for Darkvision, I definitely agree. My current party has 2 members without it and it always seems to be a thing. I just didn't want that to rule my decision. Forest gnome is definitely looking better and better, depending on how I roll for stats. The advantage on 3 types of magical saving throws seems quite appealing.
And then there's Bard...as I've described the character it would appear that Bard is the handmade class for it. I just wish there was an illusionist college, even though that would probably bite too much into the Wiz specialization. All too frequently Bards are viewed as singers/musicians, while their storytelling origins (Shakespeare was referred to as "The Bard") take somewhat of a backseat. And I definitely see my illusions as stories, supported with sound and other qualities from the various spells used in harmony.
I suppose I'm lucky I have a few months before this next campaign because D&D just simply allows for an endless number of possibilities. Glad to be able to talk this over with random strangers who can approach this from angles I hadn't considered!
If you go Wizard (illusionist), you can already create both sound and sight with Minor Illusion at level 2 with a single casting. And at level 6, you can shape your Minor Illusion at whim.
Well, you should keep in mind that the difference between an Illusionist Wizard and a Glamour Bard is that the former is focused primarily on making detailed illusions, while the latter is focused more on interacting with the audience. Its the difference between a painter (or animator) and an actor. For the bard, its all about the interaction with the people, whereas the wizard is more about technical perfection.
And don't forget that, when all is said and done, you can still cast Silent Image or other non-cantrips to create more detailed images than Minor Image as well. You can't create creatures with Minor Illusion, only objects, after all. Well, I suppose you could use Dancing Lights too.
I often play a bard who uses a component pouch instead of an instrument. While he has all the features of a bard, he isn't a performer. He has the Courtier background. He is, in fact, a diplomat. Yes he has a voice, and he can play a few instruments, but music isn't important to him as it is to the typical bard.
I never refer to him as a bard (except above) and no one bats an eye at his break from the archetype.
Hi all! I'm prepping a character for an upcoming campaign and I'm seeking some race advice.
The character will start as a Rogue, but only 1 level for the purposes of the extra starting skill and Expertise (in Deception and Performance). The character is a charlatan circus performer who does some basic sleight of hand stuff before coming to the realization that magic opens the door to bigger and better stuff via Illusions. At level 2 I'll multiclass to a Wizard Illusionist and never look back (maybe 1 more level at some point on Rogue for Cunning Action). As such, I'm very interested in the thaumaturgy cantrip, and tieflings get it for free, along with some other good racial benefits such as Dark Vision and fire resistance. They also get +2 to charisma and +1 to Int, the 2 stats I would like to be primary for this character. Between the level of Rogue and the Entertainer background I'll have a solid core of skills to employ.
On the other hand, I am considering variant human with the Magic Initiate feat. At the cost of the racial benefits, and 1 less stat point in charisma, I'd get an extra skill, 2 cantrips at will (one of which would be thaumaturgy), and a 1st level spell once per long rest. This feels kinda good, because I can already dabble in magic despite starting in a generally non-magical class.
I'd certainly appreciate any thoughts on the subject, though I understand that this may be a case of pros and cons for both. Thanks!
P.S. Stats haven't been rolled yet, though they don't really factor much into the decision making progress for this topic.
have you thought about a Forest Gnome. +2 to intelligence, +1 to dexterity, darkvision, and you get the minor illusion cantrip for free. You don't get the extra charisma, but you do get a boost to the main stat of the two classes you are choosing.
As for the two races you mentioned, they both sound fine. Human Variant is always a strong choice with getting a feat at level 1. Tieflings are fine as well. The one thing I'd check with your DM on is how NPCs will react to a Tiefling. Infernal legacy can be detriment to how others see you. Still, you'd probably fit right in at a circus.
Thanks for the thoughts, Meph. Right after posting I had noticed the Forest Gnome, but I'm primarily interested in thaumaturgy, which means either tiefling or Magic Initiate, due to it being a cleric only cantrip. I feel like it combos nicely with prestidigitation and Minor Illusion (which I get for free as a 2nd level illusionist) for putting on shows. Anything Dex related would be a perk.
May I ask why you want to go for wizard/illusionist? If you want to go full charisma based you could go sorcerer as well. Things like subtle spell and other metamagic would work great for the concept I think. If you go rogue/wizard/charlatan you probably want high dex/int/cha respectively, whereas with a rogue/sorcerer/charlatan you can go dex/cha so it saves you from being to Multiple Attribute Dependant.
Subclass: Dwarven Defender - Dragonborn Paragon
Feats: Artificer Apprentice
Monsters: Sheep - Spellbreaker Warforged Titan
Magic Items: Whipier - Ring of Secret Storage - Collar of the Guardian
Monster template: Skeletal Creature
Ty for the suggestion Raj! Let me clarify, as I wrote the initial post somewhat hastily. When I referenced charlatan I didn't even realize there was a Background for it lol and it's perhaps too strong a word. I meant it as in a person who does sleight of hand or forced perspective illusions, as opposed to the real deal (someone who crafts magical illusions). I suppose the main reason for being an Illusionist is because that's the best person to specialize in illusions. The 6th level and 14th level school bonuses are pretty sweet; the former for entertainment and the latter for utility. Also, a Wizard starts with far more spells known, and progresses at 2 per level, ending with significantly more options than the sorcerer. While my specialty will be illusions, and my character won't be dabbling heavy into any sort of battle magic, I still prefer to have options.
As far as Dex, I'm only taking my 1st level as a Rogue to get extra starting skills, as well as Expertise. I'm not worried about Dex-related things long term. Taking a high charisma is more for flavor, and for bonuses to Deception and Performance (the 2 skills I'll be using Expertise for). So that overall makes me less MAD.
I'd recommend taking a good long look at Bard. It actually has a lot of the flavor you're looking for, without a multi-class. Yuan-ti pureblood might be a good race if you choose bard MC wizard, as you can have both excellent int and char.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Tiefling is likely better than Human. Darkvision on everyone in the party is the difference between actually being stealthy, and carrying around a glowing light source saying 'hey, not only is someone around, but they're Right Here' at all times. Darkvision is a 2nd level spell, and by the time you don't mind not only having a spell for darkvision, but actually using it, you'll be 5th level. Even then, trading a 2nd level spell slot for an extra cantrip and a 1st level spell slot seems not worth it to me.
Variant Human is certainly not Wrong, and arguments could be made for it, *especially* if someone else in the party already lacks darkvision and so your party is going to be running around under light at all times anyway. However I believe Tiefling is the better choice, and the more flavorful one, personally. I'm likely biased though, I hate playing as humans.
Can I ask why the interest in Thaumaturgy? Its not like Minor Illusion and Prestidigitation can't basically do most of the same things as Thaumaturgy.
Anyways, I tend to recommend against variant human for most classes. While the extra feat is very attractive to many, I find that its no match for other racial benefits, such as darkvision, the ability to communicate with your familiar (forest gnome), fire/poison/necrotic/charm resistances (tiefling/dwarf/aasimar/elf+gnome respectively).
Illusionists tend to work alongside rogues as side-scouts, working a bit into that kind of mentality with their invisibility and other stealth enhancements. And, let me tell you that darkvision is a huge, huge, HUGE boon for them.
TY for the the replies, though now I'm feeling even more indecisive lol
Regarding Thaumaturgy, I feel like having 3 cantrips that all synergize means that within 18 seconds I can craft a visual illusion, give it sound and even smell. (a non-combat 18 seconds that is lol ) I suppose it's not a deal breaker.
As for Darkvision, I definitely agree. My current party has 2 members without it and it always seems to be a thing. I just didn't want that to rule my decision. Forest gnome is definitely looking better and better, depending on how I roll for stats. The advantage on 3 types of magical saving throws seems quite appealing.
And then there's Bard...as I've described the character it would appear that Bard is the handmade class for it. I just wish there was an illusionist college, even though that would probably bite too much into the Wiz specialization. All too frequently Bards are viewed as singers/musicians, while their storytelling origins (Shakespeare was referred to as "The Bard") take somewhat of a backseat. And I definitely see my illusions as stories, supported with sound and other qualities from the various spells used in harmony.
I suppose I'm lucky I have a few months before this next campaign because D&D just simply allows for an endless number of possibilities. Glad to be able to talk this over with random strangers who can approach this from angles I hadn't considered!
If you go Wizard (illusionist), you can already create both sound and sight with Minor Illusion at level 2 with a single casting. And at level 6, you can shape your Minor Illusion at whim.
Well, you should keep in mind that the difference between an Illusionist Wizard and a Glamour Bard is that the former is focused primarily on making detailed illusions, while the latter is focused more on interacting with the audience. Its the difference between a painter (or animator) and an actor. For the bard, its all about the interaction with the people, whereas the wizard is more about technical perfection.
And don't forget that, when all is said and done, you can still cast Silent Image or other non-cantrips to create more detailed images than Minor Image as well. You can't create creatures with Minor Illusion, only objects, after all. Well, I suppose you could use Dancing Lights too.
I guess it’s a good thing those cantrips don’t require concentration lol I could easily be juggling 3-5 spells at a clip.
I often play a bard who uses a component pouch instead of an instrument. While he has all the features of a bard, he isn't a performer. He has the Courtier background. He is, in fact, a diplomat. Yes he has a voice, and he can play a few instruments, but music isn't important to him as it is to the typical bard.
I never refer to him as a bard (except above) and no one bats an eye at his break from the archetype.
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