I have an idea for a Warlock character with the Undying type patron. Background of the character is that he was a Zhentil Keep refugee who's parents tried returning to the southern portions to help rebuild. Shortly after arriving he was captured by the ex-magelord liches that occupy it's catacombs. These liches are known to be unique in that they have managed to a semblance of society in which they research powerful ritual magic (as stated in Ruins of Zhentil Keep). So my thought here was that these liches will capture and bind promising persons with ritual magic in a state of semi-enslavement, thus providing the Undying type patron (WotC, feel free to use this idea in an unattributed fashion for a canon story line ;) )
So my questions are more in how this would work in a conceptual fashion.What level of lich is required to be a patron for this type? Larloch is mentioned in the SCAG, but he's a Chosen of Mystra and is a quite unique case. My assumption is that it's not a stretch to think that a cult of liches focused on ritual magic could accomplish something similar, but I'm not quite sure the level of power the designers had in mind.
Also, typical Warlocks would sign away their souls in an infernal pact or something. Generally, souls are involved. In this case, souls are still useful to liches for the same reason Acererak collects them, etc. Though since they are a dime a dozen to the ex-magelords, this is hardly something they care about other than a useful way to blackmail my character into service. I'm assuming any contract could be broken by the Patron, freeing the soul if agreed conditions are met. What happens then if I fullfill my service to the lich cult and they free my soul to one day rest in the halls of my deity? Wouldn't I lose all my abilities? If so, what's the incentive of continuing to progress in the Warlock instead of developing more permanent skill like wizardry other than the threats of the Patrons themselves?
Lastly, can Patrons generally communicate with their servants? Would I hear their voices instructing me or mocking me? Do they manifest in form or in my mind only?
What do you guys (and gals) think? What situation would you expect within the FR world?
The relationship is a DM to player discussion. It can/will drive the story. How overt can be creepy cool from the DM, or perhaps a player rationalization and a tick of the head.
If this was a lich who gave the power; Level 20 min. Mostly I can't imagine one doing so and handing out Level 9 spells unless it could cast them itself. But a powerful demilich would work. But that's an opinion and nothing more. Perhaps it needs a "coven" of liches vs. a solo one, and the gestalt ritural can forge the link...and is out of control of the liches.
I wouldn't bargain a soul here (feels fiendish); I'd bargain favors. "Do this for me when I ask, and this power can be yours." Getting strange items, causing strange events to occur, going to odd places that no one dares go. Or perhaps where they CAN'T go. Perhaps they need eyes and ears elsewhere (your character is like a familiar/pawn). Or perhaps you stole it, or the pact is a reward for a deed already done in the game. Depends mostly on how central to the story being told.
There isn't a rule that I am aware of that covers a broken pact though; As RAW the only class that covers this are Paladins breaking their oaths and DM's discretion on the outcome. There isn't a clear out here for absolution or becoming a blackguard like warlock. The pact seems to be rule wise "well we agree to this...here goes nothing!" So I would be more worried about direct retribution/rivals from other servants of the patron. I don't like the idea of pulling power away from the player., unless I could give a hard option like a blackguard. I am fine with being mysterious, and having a post conversation with the player along the lines of "good...good...just as I predicted/planed/expected."
Can patrons talk to players; nothing stops it. Do you listen to it is the more interesting question? A pact made in haste and desperation (and that can go both ways). Weird messages, an crawling claw with a scroll...who can see them is up to you/dm. As a DM I would leave you notes only you could read...maybe other players could find out with the right magic though :).
There isn't a rule that I am aware of that covers a broken pact though; As RAW the only class that covers this are Paladins breaking their oaths and DM's discretion on the outcome. There isn't a clear out here for absolution or becoming a blackguard like warlock. The pact seems to be rule wise "well we agree to this...here goes nothing!" So I would be more worried about direct retribution/rivals from other servants of the patron. I don't like the idea of pulling power away from the player., unless I could give a hard option like a blackguard. I am fine with being mysterious, and having a post conversation with the player along the lines of "good...good...just as I predicted/planed/expected."
Pact Magic is eternal. A character knowing what they're getting into can go against the pact once the pact has been made, however, patrons can coerce a character in a manner of ways. If you aren't the betting type and honor the initial deal, once it has been fulfilled, you still have the magic and you are free to do what you please.
Clerics and Paladins, they aren't as lucky. Both only continue to get their magic through prayer and meditation each morning. Paladins become oathbreakers when they stop acting and thinking in a way that aligns with the tenets of their oath.
"The relevant equation is: Knowledge = power = energy = matter = mass; a good bookshop is just a genteel Black Hole that knows how to read." - Terry Pratchett
There isn't a rule that I am aware of that covers a broken pact though; As RAW the only class that covers this are Paladins breaking their oaths and DM's discretion on the outcome. There isn't a clear out here for absolution or becoming a blackguard like warlock. The pact seems to be rule wise "well we agree to this...here goes nothing!" So I would be more worried about direct retribution/rivals from other servants of the patron. I don't like the idea of pulling power away from the player., unless I could give a hard option like a blackguard. I am fine with being mysterious, and having a post conversation with the player along the lines of "good...good...just as I predicted/planed/expected."
Pact Magic is eternal. A character knowing what they're getting into can go against the pact once the pact has been made, however, patrons can coerce a character in a manner of ways. If you aren't the betting type and honor the initial deal, once it has been fulfilled, you still have the magic and you are free to do what you please.
Clerics and Paladins, they aren't as lucky. Both only continue to get their magic through prayer and meditation each morning. Paladins become oathbreakers when they stop acting and thinking in a way that aligns with the tenets of their oath.
If Pact Magic is eternal, what happens if I kill my patron (really unlikely as it may be) or my patron dies? Do I keep my boons but cease to gain new ones? That's where the Undying patron gets messy. It's reasonable to assume the lich commune under Zhentil Keep are capable of using ritual magic to create a pact. But it's certainly not guaranteed my patron or the specific cult itself (I imagine there are more than one) will not be destroyed while I'm under their pact. I'm more curious from a lore perspective than a mechanics perspective. If a DM decides to wipe out my patron, I'd expect they had a plan for what happens next.
There isn't a rule that I am aware of that covers a broken pact though
Pact Magic is eternal.
If Pact Magic is eternal, what happens if I kill my patron (really unlikely as it may be) or my patron dies? Do I keep my boons but cease to gain new ones? That's where the Undying patron gets messy. It's reasonable to assume the lich commune under Zhentil Keep are capable of using ritual magic to create a pact. But it's certainly not guaranteed my patron or the specific cult itself (I imagine there are more than one) will not be destroyed while I'm under their pact. I'm more curious from a lore perspective than a mechanics perspective. If a DM decides to wipe out my patron, I'd expect they had a plan for what happens next.
It really sucks to be a warlock then? You just stagnate or multiclass (which is an optional rule, a DM might not allow you to) if you develop your character and interact with your backstory? RAF says NO! Story-wise, it's a bit more tricky. As charisma based casters, I put them along side sorcerers. When they make a pact, they are filled with magical reservoirs, some of which they can not access quite yet. As they level up they unlock certain aspects of those reservoirs, some of which are aspects specific to their patron, others take the form of spells, and more still are Eldritch Invocations. Boons, again are nothing more than a road bump a skillful DM can maneuver around. Depending on the nature of the pact, at some point, you summon forth from your reserves a shadowy book or a blade or a small fiendish friend.
"The relevant equation is: Knowledge = power = energy = matter = mass; a good bookshop is just a genteel Black Hole that knows how to read." - Terry Pratchett
There isn't a rule that I am aware of that covers a broken pact though
Pact Magic is eternal.
If Pact Magic is eternal, what happens if I kill my patron (really unlikely as it may be) or my patron dies? Do I keep my boons but cease to gain new ones? That's where the Undying patron gets messy. It's reasonable to assume the lich commune under Zhentil Keep are capable of using ritual magic to create a pact. But it's certainly not guaranteed my patron or the specific cult itself (I imagine there are more than one) will not be destroyed while I'm under their pact. I'm more curious from a lore perspective than a mechanics perspective. If a DM decides to wipe out my patron, I'd expect they had a plan for what happens next.
It really sucks to be a warlock then? You just stagnate or multiclass (which is an optional rule, a DM might not allow you to) if you develop your character and interact with your backstory? RAF says NO! Story-wise, it's a bit more tricky. As charisma based casters, I put them along side sorcerers. When they make a pact, they are filled with magical reservoirs, some of which they can not access quite yet. As they level up they unlock certain aspects of those reservoirs, some of which are aspects specific to their patron, others take the form of spells, and more still are Eldritch Invocations. Boons, again are nothing more than a road bump a skillful DM can maneuver around. Depending on the nature of the pact, at some point, you summon forth from your reserves a shadowy book or a blade or a small fiendish friend.
RAW - nothing changes. The pact was done; you have your source of power, and levelling is you about using that source of power and becoming more proficient in it. A patron isn't personally investing power into the character; otherwise they would be a cleric or Paladin.
A DM could however alter the deal, and you might lose all power until you make a new pact (similar to a Templar in the Dark Sun setting). Or perhaps can't advance, forcing multiclassing (with all the proviso's above). DM is the final judge.
However, you should have an idea of what of the above will happen in my opinion. If you patron is going to be threatened, and you know that your power would be cut off (again, just like a Templar in Dark Sun), your actions might become important here. Do you save your patron? Do you embrace the change? Might be a cool story, but IMHO, is should be very clear between the DM and you. Surprises that causes you to completely destroy your character in the process tend towards the "not fun" category of game.
I have an idea for a Warlock character with the Undying type patron. Background of the character is that he was a Zhentil Keep refugee who's parents tried returning to the southern portions to help rebuild. Shortly after arriving he was captured by the ex-magelord liches that occupy it's catacombs. These liches are known to be unique in that they have managed to a semblance of society in which they research powerful ritual magic (as stated in Ruins of Zhentil Keep). So my thought here was that these liches will capture and bind promising persons with ritual magic in a state of semi-enslavement, thus providing the Undying type patron (WotC, feel free to use this idea in an unattributed fashion for a canon story line ;) )
So my questions are more in how this would work in a conceptual fashion.What level of lich is required to be a patron for this type? Larloch is mentioned in the SCAG, but he's a Chosen of Mystra and is a quite unique case. My assumption is that it's not a stretch to think that a cult of liches focused on ritual magic could accomplish something similar, but I'm not quite sure the level of power the designers had in mind.
Also, typical Warlocks would sign away their souls in an infernal pact or something. Generally, souls are involved. In this case, souls are still useful to liches for the same reason Acererak collects them, etc. Though since they are a dime a dozen to the ex-magelords, this is hardly something they care about other than a useful way to blackmail my character into service. I'm assuming any contract could be broken by the Patron, freeing the soul if agreed conditions are met. What happens then if I fullfill my service to the lich cult and they free my soul to one day rest in the halls of my deity? Wouldn't I lose all my abilities? If so, what's the incentive of continuing to progress in the Warlock instead of developing more permanent skill like wizardry other than the threats of the Patrons themselves?
Lastly, can Patrons generally communicate with their servants? Would I hear their voices instructing me or mocking me? Do they manifest in form or in my mind only?
What do you guys (and gals) think? What situation would you expect within the FR world?
The relationship is a DM to player discussion. It can/will drive the story. How overt can be creepy cool from the DM, or perhaps a player rationalization and a tick of the head.
If this was a lich who gave the power; Level 20 min. Mostly I can't imagine one doing so and handing out Level 9 spells unless it could cast them itself. But a powerful demilich would work. But that's an opinion and nothing more. Perhaps it needs a "coven" of liches vs. a solo one, and the gestalt ritural can forge the link...and is out of control of the liches.
I wouldn't bargain a soul here (feels fiendish); I'd bargain favors. "Do this for me when I ask, and this power can be yours." Getting strange items, causing strange events to occur, going to odd places that no one dares go. Or perhaps where they CAN'T go. Perhaps they need eyes and ears elsewhere (your character is like a familiar/pawn). Or perhaps you stole it, or the pact is a reward for a deed already done in the game. Depends mostly on how central to the story being told.
There isn't a rule that I am aware of that covers a broken pact though; As RAW the only class that covers this are Paladins breaking their oaths and DM's discretion on the outcome. There isn't a clear out here for absolution or becoming a blackguard like warlock. The pact seems to be rule wise "well we agree to this...here goes nothing!" So I would be more worried about direct retribution/rivals from other servants of the patron. I don't like the idea of pulling power away from the player., unless I could give a hard option like a blackguard. I am fine with being mysterious, and having a post conversation with the player along the lines of "good...good...just as I predicted/planed/expected."
Can patrons talk to players; nothing stops it. Do you listen to it is the more interesting question? A pact made in haste and desperation (and that can go both ways). Weird messages, an crawling claw with a scroll...who can see them is up to you/dm. As a DM I would leave you notes only you could read...maybe other players could find out with the right magic though :).
GLHF!
Pact Magic is eternal. A character knowing what they're getting into can go against the pact once the pact has been made, however, patrons can coerce a character in a manner of ways. If you aren't the betting type and honor the initial deal, once it has been fulfilled, you still have the magic and you are free to do what you please.
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Astromancer's Homebrew Assembly
"The relevant equation is: Knowledge = power = energy = matter = mass; a good bookshop is just a genteel Black Hole that knows how to read." - Terry Pratchett
Tooltips | Snippet Code | How to Homebrew on D&D Beyond | Subclass Guide | Feature Roadmap
Astromancer's Homebrew Assembly
"The relevant equation is: Knowledge = power = energy = matter = mass; a good bookshop is just a genteel Black Hole that knows how to read." - Terry Pratchett