Hey all, what is your interpretation on this Gravity well ability:
Gravity Well
6th-level Graviturgy Magic feature
You’ve learned how to manipulate gravity around a living being: whenever you cast a spell on a creature, you can move the target 5 feet to an unoccupied space of your choice if the target is willing to move, the spell hits it with an attack, or it fails a saving throw against the spell.
I would say this means that you can move a creature when:
a) they fail a saving throw from your spell.
b) they are hit with an attack roll from your spell
c) they willingly move when a spell is cast on them.
Would the forced movement be based on one creature per spell cast or does it encompass all creatures that would be subject to the spell.
Also would this feature also apply for AOE based spells.
example 1: I cast scorching ray on three different targets requiring an attack roll for all 3 creatures, does the 5ft movement get applied to only one creature due to only one spell being cast or all 3 creatures due to being hit by an attack roll.
example 2: I cast fireball on an area which requires creatures within the area to make a dexterity saving throw. Due to only one spell being cast, does one creature get forced 5ft, all creatures subject to and failing the dexterity saving throw get moved 5ft or no creatures at all since the ability states when a spell is cast on a creature where these spells are cast on an area.
If anyone has any official rulings or other threads which cover this would be greatly appreciated.
It only works for spells you cast on the creature and target them. There is no limit to the number.
With AoE spells like Fireball you don't cast the spell on a creature or target them. You cast the spell on an area - targeting a point in space you can see within the spell's range.
So, Example 1: each creature you target that you successfully strike can be moved.
Example 2: no creature is moved.
If you cast Charm Person on 3 creatures by upcasting, each one that fails their save can also be moved.
It can also apply to yourself. Cast Shield on yourself against an attack and before the attack even hits (because the shield is up before the attack as per the reaction text) you can move yourself 5 away which means if you can move out of the reach of that attack , you cause it to automiss and your shield still applies for any other attacks before the start of your next turn. Since the movement is not you using your movement it doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity either (which means not only could cast a beneficial spell on an ally engaged with an enemy, you could - basically - disengage them for free if you move them out of the enemy's reach. This also means if an enemy is next to you, you could use a spell like Frostbite targeting them and they fail- you push them away 5 ft, basically disengaging for free so you can run away.
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I would not allow it to let the 5ft move from a a shield move you out of the way of a spell. As a DM I would rule if the player manages to hit your AC even with the shield, that means they hit you BEFORE you moved.
Since there isn't ability's like nimble escape that lets a goblin literally run around a battle field permanently with out ever triggering a AOO right? which has 0 restrictions on being spammed. and in case you didn't know the trait.
Nimble Escape
You can take the Disengage or Hide action as a bonus action on each of your turns.
if you take the Disengage action, your movement doesn't provoke opportunity attacks for the rest of the turn.
Reaction shield move self 5 feet. there goes 1 casting slot. Rinse repeat sure but they are burning slots to possibly not get hit vs letting the dice chance of not hitting. Seems very small minded to not let it work.
I think you can only move a target 5 feet per casting of a spell. "whenever you cast a spell on a creature, you can move the target 5 feet"
That doesn't limit it's uses. It later specifies when you can trigger it, and if a spell can trigger this ability multiple times (like scorching ray or jim's magic missiles) you can use it multiple times a turn.
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I think you can only move a target 5 feet per casting of a spell. "whenever you cast a spell on a creature, you can move the target 5 feet"
That doesn't limit it's uses. It later specifies when you can trigger it, and if a spell can trigger this ability multiple times (like scorching ray or jim's magic missiles) you can use it multiple times a turn.
My reading agrees with Sungamer.
The spell specifies 5ft of movement, not 5ft of movement per trigger. It's basically asking, "Did the spell hit a target with an attack?", to which the answer is "Yes" or "No", not a number of instances.
In other words, the features occurs once per creature per casting, not per trigger.
I think you can only move a target 5 feet per casting of a spell. "whenever you cast a spell on a creature, you can move the target 5 feet"
That doesn't limit it's uses. It later specifies when you can trigger it, and if a spell can trigger this ability multiple times (like scorching ray or jim's magic missiles) you can use it multiple times a turn.
My reading agrees with Sungamer.
The spell specifies 5ft of movement, not 5ft of movement per trigger. It's basically asking, "Did the spell hit a target with an attack?", to which the answer is "Yes" or "No", not a number of instances.
In other words, the features occurs once per creature per casting, not per trigger.
That doesn't limit the amount of times you can use it in a turn.
The question is "Did the spell hit a creature with an attack?", if the answer is "Yes" you get to move it 5 feet. This isn't once a turn, it's once each time you hit a creature.
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(1) Magic Missile simply doesn't work with it, since there is no attack or saving throw [SageAdvice]
(2) There is no limit to the number of creatures it can effect [Sageadvice], but to suggest that it can affect the same target multiple times as part of the same spell is inconsistent with the author's M.O., inconsistent with the other triggers, and exceedingly powerful to the point of being broken.
(1) Magic Missile simply doesn't work with it, since there is no attack or saving throw [SageAdvice]
(2) There is no limit to the number of creatures it can effect [Sageadvice], but to suggest that it can affect the same target multiple times as part of the same spell is inconsistent with the author's M.O., inconsistent with the other triggers, and exceedingly powerful to the point of being broken.
1) I never said magic missile would work, I already know it wouldn't for the exact reason you said. I said jim's magic missile, which does require an attack roll and would be a viable spell for this feature.
2) It is definitely not broken to give up a 9th level spell to move a creature unwillingly 50-55 feet, having to hit 10-11 times in order to get this spell to function. Even at lower levels it is no more powerful than a warlock with repelling eldritch blast. Also, if it can effect multiple targets at once, there is no reason RAW why it cannot effect a single target multiple times in the same turn.
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(2) There absolutely is a reason by RAW, because the wording is different from other such effects. Repelling blast explicitly states, "When you hit a creature...", whereas this ability says "Whenever you cast a spell...". The former occurs multiple times, the latter only occurs once. The former is a result of the impact, and the latter is a result of the casting.
Giving up a 9th level spell is total overkill. Simply casting scorching ray at 3rd level then casting a quickened Eldritch Blast would let a 6th level character move a target 30ft.
Keep in mind also that Repelling blast is limited to "directly away from the caster in a straight line".
Your interpretation would allow a 6th level caster to move a creature around corners, over walls, or just straight up for an additional 3d6 fall damage.
While unlikely due to AC, you could literally pick up a Tarrasque and just put it on someone's house. (Plenty of ways to get advantage.)
So a Wizard with two Sorcery Points could cast Mind Sliver cantrip as an Action, then cast Gust cantrip with Quickened Spell as a Bonus Action, to move a Medium sized target creature 3 times, for a total of 15ft? That seems pretty good, actually: 2 SP to move someone 15ft (including straight up, or off a cliff), zero spell slots used...
How does this compare with other ways to move a creature involuntarily?
Gravity well could work with the regular magic missile spell, so long as the target is willing. Niche, but can be a relatively low damage way to target multiple allies and move them from where they are if absolutely necessary for some reason.
(2) There absolutely is a reason by RAW, because the wording is different from other such effects. Repelling blast explicitly states, "When you hit a creature...", whereas this ability says "Whenever you cast a spell...". The former occurs multiple times, the latter only occurs once. The former is a result of the impact, and the latter is a result of the casting.
The wording is different because repelling blast has one trigger clause. Attack rolls with eldritch blast. Gravity Well can be triggered by any targeting spells and the clauses include willingness to move, hitting with an attack or failing a save. The verbiage of Repelling Blast does not provide a proper case for your ruling. I imagine the wording on gravity well was mostly done for ease of syntax while still providing the relevant information to use it.
They are quite clear to label when something can only be applied once per turn (or once per your turn). It's all over Tasha's. The same logic applies to any text that would outline "once per spell cast". Absent that kind of language, I believe Third is correct.
It would affect all creatures targeted by the spell as long as they meet the criteria (the creature is hit with an attack from the spell, fails a save against the spell, or is willing to move), but it wouldn't work on AoE spells. As others have mentioned, you do not cast an AoE spell on a creature, you cast it on an area targeting a point of origin.
Shield and absorb elements are interesting cases. They do allow you to move yourself 5 ft. when you cast them, but keep in mind the triggers of each:
The trigger of shield is "when you are hit by an attack or targeted by the magic missile spell." The attack has already hit you, so it's not like you can move out of the away to avoid it. However, that little bit of movement could prevent multiattacks if the attacker used all of its movement to get to you.
The trigger of absorb elements is "when you take acid, cold, fire, lightning, or thunder damage." You're already taking the damage, so again you can't avoid it by moving out of the way, but you can still move yourself.
Moving a creature multiple times with the same spell (such as scorching ray or Jim's magic missile) doesn't work. The ability triggers when you cast one of those spells on a creature as long you hit it with an attack from the spell. It does not trigger when you hit the creature with an attack from the spell. You're only casting the spell on the creature once, whether you target it with one instance of the damage or multiple, so you only get to move the creature 5 feet per casting.
Yeah, it only triggers once per casting; that's why I asked about Mind Sliver + (Quickened) Gust for 2 Sorcery points & 0 spell slots. 2 SP each use still limits how many times you can use it, but that's 2 triggers & up to 5 or 15 feet, per use.
Any way to get more movement of a hostile creature, for less cost?
What's even comparable, here? What combo forces the most total movement?
Yeah, it only triggers once per casting; that's why I asked about Mind Sliver + (Quickened) Gust for 2 Sorcery points & 0 spell slots. 2 SP each use still limits how many times you can use it, but that's 2 triggers & either 15 or 5 feet, per use.
Any way to get more movement of a hostile creature, for less cost?
What's even comparable, here? What combo forces the most total movement?
The most total movement would come from a spell that hits with multiple attacks or forces multiple saves or, in the case of magic missile or a buff, is cast on willing targets, on multiple targets - it can absolutely trigger multiple times per casting, provided there are multiple creatures. For example, you could cast Scorching Ray at three different creatures. All three are now subject to the Gravity Well rule if the Ray hits them, so all three can be moved. Same thing with Eldritch Blast.
But the spell has plenty of other uses. For example, Sword Burst targets a creature - the caster. You can use this ability to cast Sword Burst and then step back from the melee without provoking an AoO, for example. I wouldn't underestimate its massive utility for causing forced friendly movement.
Hey all, what is your interpretation on this Gravity well ability:
Gravity Well
6th-level Graviturgy Magic feature
You’ve learned how to manipulate gravity around a living being: whenever you cast a spell on a creature, you can move the target 5 feet to an unoccupied space of your choice if the target is willing to move, the spell hits it with an attack, or it fails a saving throw against the spell.
I would say this means that you can move a creature when:
a) they fail a saving throw from your spell.
b) they are hit with an attack roll from your spell
c) they willingly move when a spell is cast on them.
Would the forced movement be based on one creature per spell cast or does it encompass all creatures that would be subject to the spell.
Also would this feature also apply for AOE based spells.
example 1: I cast scorching ray on three different targets requiring an attack roll for all 3 creatures, does the 5ft movement get applied to only one creature due to only one spell being cast or all 3 creatures due to being hit by an attack roll.
example 2: I cast fireball on an area which requires creatures within the area to make a dexterity saving throw. Due to only one spell being cast, does one creature get forced 5ft, all creatures subject to and failing the dexterity saving throw get moved 5ft or no creatures at all since the ability states when a spell is cast on a creature where these spells are cast on an area.
If anyone has any official rulings or other threads which cover this would be greatly appreciated.
It only works for spells you cast on the creature and target them. There is no limit to the number.
With AoE spells like Fireball you don't cast the spell on a creature or target them. You cast the spell on an area - targeting a point in space you can see within the spell's range.
So, Example 1: each creature you target that you successfully strike can be moved.
Example 2: no creature is moved.
If you cast Charm Person on 3 creatures by upcasting, each one that fails their save can also be moved.
It can also apply to yourself. Cast Shield on yourself against an attack and before the attack even hits (because the shield is up before the attack as per the reaction text) you can move yourself 5 away which means if you can move out of the reach of that attack , you cause it to automiss and your shield still applies for any other attacks before the start of your next turn. Since the movement is not you using your movement it doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity either (which means not only could cast a beneficial spell on an ally engaged with an enemy, you could - basically - disengage them for free if you move them out of the enemy's reach. This also means if an enemy is next to you, you could use a spell like Frostbite targeting them and they fail- you push them away 5 ft, basically disengaging for free so you can run away.
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You can do something like Jim's Magic Missiles, upcast it to level 9 to make 11 missiles, and then move one creature 55 feet.
That would work.
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One fun use of this ability is to cast Hellish rebuke to push a Melee target 5ft away, or to use it on shield to cause a melee attack to miss.
When the DM smiles, it is already to late.
I would not allow it to let the 5ft move from a a shield move you out of the way of a spell. As a DM I would rule if the player manages to hit your AC even with the shield, that means they hit you BEFORE you moved.
To rule otherwise seems overpowered to me.
Since there isn't ability's like nimble escape that lets a goblin literally run around a battle field permanently with out ever triggering a AOO right? which has 0 restrictions on being spammed. and in case you didn't know the trait.
You can take the Disengage or Hide action as a bonus action on each of your turns.
if you take the Disengage action, your movement doesn't provoke opportunity attacks for the rest of the turn.
Reaction shield move self 5 feet. there goes 1 casting slot. Rinse repeat sure but they are burning slots to possibly not get hit vs letting the dice chance of not hitting. Seems very small minded to not let it work.
I think you can only move a target 5 feet per casting of a spell. "whenever you cast a spell on a creature, you can move the target 5 feet"
That doesn't limit it's uses. It later specifies when you can trigger it, and if a spell can trigger this ability multiple times (like scorching ray or jim's magic missiles) you can use it multiple times a turn.
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My reading agrees with Sungamer.
The spell specifies 5ft of movement, not 5ft of movement per trigger. It's basically asking, "Did the spell hit a target with an attack?", to which the answer is "Yes" or "No", not a number of instances.
In other words, the features occurs once per creature per casting, not per trigger.
That doesn't limit the amount of times you can use it in a turn.
The question is "Did the spell hit a creature with an attack?", if the answer is "Yes" you get to move it 5 feet. This isn't once a turn, it's once each time you hit a creature.
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(1) Magic Missile simply doesn't work with it, since there is no attack or saving throw [SageAdvice]
(2) There is no limit to the number of creatures it can effect [Sageadvice], but to suggest that it can affect the same target multiple times as part of the same spell is inconsistent with the author's M.O., inconsistent with the other triggers, and exceedingly powerful to the point of being broken.
1) I never said magic missile would work, I already know it wouldn't for the exact reason you said. I said jim's magic missile, which does require an attack roll and would be a viable spell for this feature.
2) It is definitely not broken to give up a 9th level spell to move a creature unwillingly 50-55 feet, having to hit 10-11 times in order to get this spell to function. Even at lower levels it is no more powerful than a warlock with repelling eldritch blast. Also, if it can effect multiple targets at once, there is no reason RAW why it cannot effect a single target multiple times in the same turn.
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(1) hah, right. I forgot about Jim.
(2) There absolutely is a reason by RAW, because the wording is different from other such effects. Repelling blast explicitly states, "When you hit a creature...", whereas this ability says "Whenever you cast a spell...". The former occurs multiple times, the latter only occurs once. The former is a result of the impact, and the latter is a result of the casting.
Giving up a 9th level spell is total overkill. Simply casting scorching ray at 3rd level then casting a quickened Eldritch Blast would let a 6th level character move a target 30ft.
Keep in mind also that Repelling blast is limited to "directly away from the caster in a straight line".
Your interpretation would allow a 6th level caster to move a creature around corners, over walls, or just straight up for an additional 3d6 fall damage.
While unlikely due to AC, you could literally pick up a Tarrasque and just put it on someone's house. (Plenty of ways to get advantage.)
So a Wizard with two Sorcery Points could cast Mind Sliver cantrip as an Action, then cast Gust cantrip with Quickened Spell as a Bonus Action, to move a Medium sized target creature 3 times, for a total of 15ft?
That seems pretty good, actually: 2 SP to move someone 15ft (including straight up, or off a cliff), zero spell slots used...
How does this compare with other ways to move a creature involuntarily?
Gravity well could work with the regular magic missile spell, so long as the target is willing. Niche, but can be a relatively low damage way to target multiple allies and move them from where they are if absolutely necessary for some reason.
The wording is different because repelling blast has one trigger clause. Attack rolls with eldritch blast. Gravity Well can be triggered by any targeting spells and the clauses include willingness to move, hitting with an attack or failing a save. The verbiage of Repelling Blast does not provide a proper case for your ruling. I imagine the wording on gravity well was mostly done for ease of syntax while still providing the relevant information to use it.
They are quite clear to label when something can only be applied once per turn (or once per your turn). It's all over Tasha's. The same logic applies to any text that would outline "once per spell cast". Absent that kind of language, I believe Third is correct.
It would affect all creatures targeted by the spell as long as they meet the criteria (the creature is hit with an attack from the spell, fails a save against the spell, or is willing to move), but it wouldn't work on AoE spells. As others have mentioned, you do not cast an AoE spell on a creature, you cast it on an area targeting a point of origin.
Shield and absorb elements are interesting cases. They do allow you to move yourself 5 ft. when you cast them, but keep in mind the triggers of each:
Moving a creature multiple times with the same spell (such as scorching ray or Jim's magic missile) doesn't work. The ability triggers when you cast one of those spells on a creature as long you hit it with an attack from the spell. It does not trigger when you hit the creature with an attack from the spell. You're only casting the spell on the creature once, whether you target it with one instance of the damage or multiple, so you only get to move the creature 5 feet per casting.
Yeah, it only triggers once per casting; that's why I asked about Mind Sliver + (Quickened) Gust for 2 Sorcery points & 0 spell slots. 2 SP each use still limits how many times you can use it, but that's 2 triggers & up to 5 or 15 feet, per use.
Any way to get more movement of a hostile creature, for less cost?
What's even comparable, here? What combo forces the most total movement?
I know there's a Telekinetic feat to inflict movement... but that's on weapon attacks; or could it stack with this?
The most total movement would come from a spell that hits with multiple attacks or forces multiple saves or, in the case of magic missile or a buff, is cast on willing targets, on multiple targets - it can absolutely trigger multiple times per casting, provided there are multiple creatures. For example, you could cast Scorching Ray at three different creatures. All three are now subject to the Gravity Well rule if the Ray hits them, so all three can be moved. Same thing with Eldritch Blast.
But the spell has plenty of other uses. For example, Sword Burst targets a creature - the caster. You can use this ability to cast Sword Burst and then step back from the melee without provoking an AoO, for example. I wouldn't underestimate its massive utility for causing forced friendly movement.