It's important to note that instinctive charm and shield have different triggers. Instinctive charm triggers when an enemy makes an attack roll, whereas shield triggers when an enemy hits you with an attack roll. So by using instinctive charm, the enemy doesn't even get to try against you if it fails its save, unless it has multiattack. With shield, the enemy has already hit you, and if the DM plays it straight (which admittedly many don't) there's no guarantee that shield will successfully prevent the hit.
It's useful if there's another enemy within melee reach of the attacking enemy, because you can have them attack their buddy instead of you. Or, if the party's tank is close enough, you can force them to attack the attack the tank and likely miss.
It's also not considered magical, so it still works inside an area of antimagic, whereas shield doesn't. Niche use, but good to know.
Part of it will be based on the table. Even basics like how often enemies attack the back line and if they do are they within 30'. To how do you handle multiattack in play. Lets say in this example its 3 attacks but one action so does your DM roll one and then ask do you use instinctive charm, do they roll all 3 and say I hit a 15, 20, 25. Well if your AC is 16 shield and instinctive charm do the same thing to reduce damage and charm assuming a failed save can cause some. But if its 15, 18, 19 instinctive charm stops less. And what if its 15, 18, crit. Now instinctive charm is potentially better at reducing damage and can really hit a enemy hard.
Part of it will be based on the table. Even basics like how often enemies attack the back line and if they do are they within 30'. To how do you handle multiattack in play. Lets say in this example its 3 attacks but one action so does your DM roll one and then ask do you use instinctive charm, do they roll all 3 and say I hit a 15, 20, 25. Well if your AC is 16 shield and instinctive charm do the same thing to reduce damage and charm assuming a failed save can cause some. But if its 15, 18, 19 instinctive charm stops less. And what if its 15, 18, crit. Now instinctive charm is potentially better at reducing damage and can really hit a enemy hard.
So the table is one attack at a time - attack - do you use your reaction? .... attack again - do you use your reaction .... attack again ...
Also the character is a front liner (fighter-wizard) which has some significance here because shield will work on lots of enemies, but instinctive charm only works on 1 attack.
Part of it will be based on the table. Even basics like how often enemies attack the back line and if they do are they within 30'. To how do you handle multiattack in play. Lets say in this example its 3 attacks but one action so does your DM roll one and then ask do you use instinctive charm, do they roll all 3 and say I hit a 15, 20, 25. Well if your AC is 16 shield and instinctive charm do the same thing to reduce damage and charm assuming a failed save can cause some. But if its 15, 18, 19 instinctive charm stops less. And what if its 15, 18, crit. Now instinctive charm is potentially better at reducing damage and can really hit a enemy hard.
So the table is one attack at a time - attack - do you use your reaction? .... attack again - do you use your reaction .... attack again ...
Also the character is a front liner (fighter-wizard) which has some significance here because shield will work on lots of enemies, but instinctive charm only works on 1 attack.
When it is run like that shield is generally better as of the first hit you are using the shield and while its possible all the other attacks miss its a gamble. Still its a extra option which can bail you out from crits or hits that are past what shield can protect against when they are the first hit and maybe you've burned all your 1st slots and then the question whats a better use a 2nd level shield or instinctive charm and that is a harder call.
Instinctive Charm can only protect against 1 attack, And if they succeed? You can't use it on them again for a day. It only works if the target is within 30 ft.
Shield just works. It's +5 AC, and even if that attack still goes through, the shield remains up for any and all attack rolls made against you by anyone, anywhere. They could be a bajillion miles away - you still get your +5 protection. There could thousands of enemies all attacking you within that round it's up - and it'll provide it's +5 protection every single attack. All of them.
And you only need to use the shield if an attack would hit you, so there's no wasting it. The +5 AC is more likely to protect you, than the enemy is likely to fail their save. Also, there's a lot of enemies who are immune to your charms, instinctive or otherwise and very very few who can ignore your Shield.
Sure, Shield uses spell slots but then that's what Spell Storing rings, scroll-scribing and Spell Mastery are for.
I played a high level enchanter and decided to use instinctive charm as I had two enemies - wanting to get one to hit the other. It worked. But, that was that. I managed to deflect 1 attack out of 4. And if I had used Shield, I'd have deflected all of them (got to see the rolls).
IC is absolutely, indescribably, useless. Shield every time. No contest.
I wouldn't go that far I played a enchanter and used it about 1/2 the time. Enemy attacks misses first attack, they only have 2 and they are within 30', which is better now? Sure avoiding damage is nice, and assuming its within 5 of your AC its guaranteed. But doing damage at the same time is nicer.
If your build gives you a solid AC like maybe you are a dwarf wizard with a 17AC you might only get hit 50% of the time so its 1 missed attack for 1 missed attack on average with a enemy with 2 attacks, or the ever so common 1 level hex blade dip and you have a 19 AC. Or the other end your Ac is such garbage +5 AC doesn't help, you are like woo with shield I have a 18 AC and the DM is like I hit a AC 25, 28, 27.
Instinctive Charm is practically worthless. Shield is much better.
Hypnotic Gaze is good. But Split Enchantment and Alter Memories is where this subclass really rules. Those two are remarkable abilities - the ability to double the number of victims in combat is huge. The ability to make people forget you charmed them makes charm spells key for non-combat situations.
I just.don’t get why people like Hypnotic Gaze. You are locking up your wizard in order to lock up an NPC. That’s almost never worth it.
Its worth it in many fights imo, especially since it take a action, not concentration. Quick example a Ogre and 4 orcs attack the party, locking down the ogre is a solid choice especially since it only costs and action. 2 frost giants attack, locking down one of the frost giants is solid. Cast hold monster, and lock down another. You've taken 2 enemies out of the fight while the party overwhelms the rest.
Instinctive Charm is practically worthless. Shield is much better.
Every tool has its uses and that makes Instinctive Charm far from useless.
Compared to Shield it is free, it can't be Counterspelled, and it has the potential to damage an enemy.
I agree that Shield is generally more useful and that the cost quickly becomes negligible. That doesn't mean that Instinctive Charm is practically worthless. It is a bit more risk/reward thing with some tactical usage.
Yup there are lots of situations where instinctive charm is useful. Last enchanter I played used it about half the time and it was the right call to do so.
1. A decent number of enemies have one attack or a one attack in their rotation, like giants and their rock. Or they have two and just missed on their first attack.
2. Lots of times shield just wont matter, enchanters maybe especially. A enchanter might put something into charisma to help with their charm effects and the like so they might not have much if anything to put into Dex, so their AC is 13 from mage armor. 18 with shield. Fighting something with +10/11 to hit shield very well may stop nothing where instinctive charm can at least stop one of them. Or the other end where through multi classing or something your base Ac is so high its rare they will hit you twice. And on one hit I'd rather divert the attack to a enemy if possible. Though positioning can screw that up and just divert it to a friend so shield there.
3. Sometimes diverting the attack to a particular target is worth taking a hit from a 2nd attack.
And while the cost of shield may become negligible depending on how long your days are it may not be fast. Its worth burning 1st levels spells on pretty fast, 2nd level spells a bit later, its pretty late game when its worth burning a 3rd level spell.
I just.don’t get why people like Hypnotic Gaze. You are locking up your wizard in order to lock up an NPC. That’s almost never worth it.
Hypnotic gaze incapacitates the target for a round, during wich you can still move freely. It's a one-round total shutdown at no cost except a single action. Only if you've chosen to use your action on subsequent turns to extend it does the effect break by damage, moving away, or being unable to see/hear you - which, depending on the situation, might be totally worth it. If you're facing multiple enemies, you can even drop a flaming sphere before gazing someone and continue doing damage to other enemies while you're busy locking down the big scary one.
But I digress, as this thread is about instinctive charm rather than hypnotic gaze. Both have certain tactical uses, which I quite enjoy. Neither feature is The Best™️ in every situation, but when used well they can both be very potent.
Hypnotic gaze is often more useful as a single turn, but can be valuable to concentrate on something and then shut down a high-profile target while the party cleans up the fodder.
Instinctive charm is typically more useful against fewer attacks, whereas shield is more useful against more attacks. If you're most likely only taking one or two attacks in a given round, you can save your spell slot and try to divert that attack before shield even becomes relevant (like I mentioned before, instinctive charm triggers when the attack is made, whereas shield triggers on a successful hit). There might be more niche situations where instinctive charm is better than shield against multiple attacks, but more than likely you're better off using it against fewer attacks.
I just.don’t get why people like Hypnotic Gaze. You are locking up your wizard in order to lock up an NPC. That’s almost never worth it.
If you are say 7th level and fighting a purple worm it is pretty good to lock him up for a round while your party pounds on him. It only lasts 1 round but even so when the enemy can take out a character every turn that is a huge benefit on the first round of combat.
My main problem with it is that you can only succeed at it once per long rest, I think I'd personally prefer if it was proficiency bonus attempts as while there'd be a chance it doesn't work at all, there'd also be a chance that you can do it multiple times. Either that or maybe half proficiency uses per long rest but only used on success?
Definitely feels like it should be something that can be used more often anyway, as there's a real danger of using it to avoid an attack that wasn't that bad, only to regret succeeding when something far worse comes your way. Which makes it into one of those classic features where you hold off using it, only to then never use it because you were afraid it would be wasted.
Update: Nevermind, apparently I can't read and have played it wrong!
I mean if they make their save its only once vs them. But you can use it against others. Its main problem is the you have use it before you know it hits clause, though I've played in multiple campaigns and that never comes up as the DM just says I hit a Ac 20 etc. They aren't going they attack, what do you do. One it feels kind of douchy to try and coax it being used on a miss and two it just slows the game far too much.
I mean if they make their save its only once vs them. But you can use it against others. Its main problem is the you have use it before you know it hits clause, though I've played in multiple campaigns and that never comes up as the DM just says I hit a Ac 20 etc. They aren't going they attack, what do you do. One it feels kind of douchy to try and coax it being used on a miss and two it just slows the game far too much.
Oh it's per attacker? In that case I've read and used it wrong so you can ignore my post entirely, heh, that's much better than I thought in that case!
Making one enemy smash another, even if that happens infrequently (and it does), is awesome and should be tried. It's a moment that isn't happening all the time, but it's when it does it is joyous.
Yup there are lots of situations where instinctive charm is useful. Last enchanter I played used it about half the time and it was the right call to do so.
1. A decent number of enemies have one attack or a one attack in their rotation, like giants and their rock. Or they have two and just missed on their first attack.
2. Lots of times shield just wont matter, enchanters maybe especially. A enchanter might put something into charisma to help with their charm effects and the like so they might not have much if anything to put into Dex, so their AC is 13 from mage armor. 18 with shield. Fighting something with +10/11 to hit shield very well may stop nothing where instinctive charm can at least stop one of them. Or the other end where through multi classing or something your base Ac is so high its rare they will hit you twice. And on one hit I'd rather divert the attack to a enemy if possible. Though positioning can screw that up and just divert it to a friend so shield there.
3. Sometimes diverting the attack to a particular target is worth taking a hit from a 2nd attack.
And while the cost of shield may become negligible depending on how long your days are it may not be fast. Its worth burning 1st levels spells on pretty fast, 2nd level spells a bit later, its pretty late game when its worth burning a 3rd level spell.
I like instinctive charm. I don't think I could ever get an enchanter to high enough level to use it though because I view hypnotic gaze so poorly.
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Instinctive Charm seems really cool, but since it is a reaction how much does it conflict with Shield? Is it as good as it sounds?
I really want to like it but I am afraid it will almost always be better to throw shield, especially since most enemies have multiattack.
FWIW this character will be in melee a lot.
It's important to note that instinctive charm and shield have different triggers. Instinctive charm triggers when an enemy makes an attack roll, whereas shield triggers when an enemy hits you with an attack roll. So by using instinctive charm, the enemy doesn't even get to try against you if it fails its save, unless it has multiattack. With shield, the enemy has already hit you, and if the DM plays it straight (which admittedly many don't) there's no guarantee that shield will successfully prevent the hit.
It's useful if there's another enemy within melee reach of the attacking enemy, because you can have them attack their buddy instead of you. Or, if the party's tank is close enough, you can force them to attack the attack the tank and likely miss.
It's also not considered magical, so it still works inside an area of antimagic, whereas shield doesn't. Niche use, but good to know.
Part of it will be based on the table. Even basics like how often enemies attack the back line and if they do are they within 30'. To how do you handle multiattack in play. Lets say in this example its 3 attacks but one action so does your DM roll one and then ask do you use instinctive charm, do they roll all 3 and say I hit a 15, 20, 25. Well if your AC is 16 shield and instinctive charm do the same thing to reduce damage and charm assuming a failed save can cause some. But if its 15, 18, 19 instinctive charm stops less. And what if its 15, 18, crit. Now instinctive charm is potentially better at reducing damage and can really hit a enemy hard.
So the table is one attack at a time - attack - do you use your reaction? .... attack again - do you use your reaction .... attack again ...
Also the character is a front liner (fighter-wizard) which has some significance here because shield will work on lots of enemies, but instinctive charm only works on 1 attack.
When it is run like that shield is generally better as of the first hit you are using the shield and while its possible all the other attacks miss its a gamble. Still its a extra option which can bail you out from crits or hits that are past what shield can protect against when they are the first hit and maybe you've burned all your 1st slots and then the question whats a better use a 2nd level shield or instinctive charm and that is a harder call.
Shield everytime.
Instinctive Charm can only protect against 1 attack, And if they succeed? You can't use it on them again for a day. It only works if the target is within 30 ft.
Shield just works. It's +5 AC, and even if that attack still goes through, the shield remains up for any and all attack rolls made against you by anyone, anywhere. They could be a bajillion miles away - you still get your +5 protection. There could thousands of enemies all attacking you within that round it's up - and it'll provide it's +5 protection every single attack. All of them.
And you only need to use the shield if an attack would hit you, so there's no wasting it. The +5 AC is more likely to protect you, than the enemy is likely to fail their save. Also, there's a lot of enemies who are immune to your charms, instinctive or otherwise and very very few who can ignore your Shield.
Sure, Shield uses spell slots but then that's what Spell Storing rings, scroll-scribing and Spell Mastery are for.
I played a high level enchanter and decided to use instinctive charm as I had two enemies - wanting to get one to hit the other. It worked. But, that was that. I managed to deflect 1 attack out of 4. And if I had used Shield, I'd have deflected all of them (got to see the rolls).
IC is absolutely, indescribably, useless. Shield every time. No contest.
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I wouldn't go that far I played a enchanter and used it about 1/2 the time. Enemy attacks misses first attack, they only have 2 and they are within 30', which is better now? Sure avoiding damage is nice, and assuming its within 5 of your AC its guaranteed. But doing damage at the same time is nicer.
If your build gives you a solid AC like maybe you are a dwarf wizard with a 17AC you might only get hit 50% of the time so its 1 missed attack for 1 missed attack on average with a enemy with 2 attacks, or the ever so common 1 level hex blade dip and you have a 19 AC. Or the other end your Ac is such garbage +5 AC doesn't help, you are like woo with shield I have a 18 AC and the DM is like I hit a AC 25, 28, 27.
Instinctive Charm is practically worthless. Shield is much better.
Hypnotic Gaze is good. But Split Enchantment and Alter Memories is where this subclass really rules. Those two are remarkable abilities - the ability to double the number of victims in combat is huge. The ability to make people forget you charmed them makes charm spells key for non-combat situations.
I just.don’t get why people like Hypnotic Gaze. You are locking up your wizard in order to lock up an NPC. That’s almost never worth it.
Its worth it in many fights imo, especially since it take a action, not concentration. Quick example a Ogre and 4 orcs attack the party, locking down the ogre is a solid choice especially since it only costs and action. 2 frost giants attack, locking down one of the frost giants is solid. Cast hold monster, and lock down another. You've taken 2 enemies out of the fight while the party overwhelms the rest.
Every tool has its uses and that makes Instinctive Charm far from useless.
Compared to Shield it is free, it can't be Counterspelled, and it has the potential to damage an enemy.
I agree that Shield is generally more useful and that the cost quickly becomes negligible. That doesn't mean that Instinctive Charm is practically worthless. It is a bit more risk/reward thing with some tactical usage.
Yup there are lots of situations where instinctive charm is useful. Last enchanter I played used it about half the time and it was the right call to do so.
1. A decent number of enemies have one attack or a one attack in their rotation, like giants and their rock. Or they have two and just missed on their first attack.
2. Lots of times shield just wont matter, enchanters maybe especially. A enchanter might put something into charisma to help with their charm effects and the like so they might not have much if anything to put into Dex, so their AC is 13 from mage armor. 18 with shield. Fighting something with +10/11 to hit shield very well may stop nothing where instinctive charm can at least stop one of them. Or the other end where through multi classing or something your base Ac is so high its rare they will hit you twice. And on one hit I'd rather divert the attack to a enemy if possible. Though positioning can screw that up and just divert it to a friend so shield there.
3. Sometimes diverting the attack to a particular target is worth taking a hit from a 2nd attack.
And while the cost of shield may become negligible depending on how long your days are it may not be fast. Its worth burning 1st levels spells on pretty fast, 2nd level spells a bit later, its pretty late game when its worth burning a 3rd level spell.
Hypnotic gaze incapacitates the target for a round, during wich you can still move freely. It's a one-round total shutdown at no cost except a single action. Only if you've chosen to use your action on subsequent turns to extend it does the effect break by damage, moving away, or being unable to see/hear you - which, depending on the situation, might be totally worth it. If you're facing multiple enemies, you can even drop a flaming sphere before gazing someone and continue doing damage to other enemies while you're busy locking down the big scary one.
But I digress, as this thread is about instinctive charm rather than hypnotic gaze. Both have certain tactical uses, which I quite enjoy. Neither feature is The Best™️ in every situation, but when used well they can both be very potent.
Hypnotic gaze is often more useful as a single turn, but can be valuable to concentrate on something and then shut down a high-profile target while the party cleans up the fodder.
Instinctive charm is typically more useful against fewer attacks, whereas shield is more useful against more attacks. If you're most likely only taking one or two attacks in a given round, you can save your spell slot and try to divert that attack before shield even becomes relevant (like I mentioned before, instinctive charm triggers when the attack is made, whereas shield triggers on a successful hit). There might be more niche situations where instinctive charm is better than shield against multiple attacks, but more than likely you're better off using it against fewer attacks.
If you are say 7th level and fighting a purple worm it is pretty good to lock him up for a round while your party pounds on him. It only lasts 1 round but even so when the enemy can take out a character every turn that is a huge benefit on the first round of combat.
I think it's a solid defensive feature.
My main problem with it is that you can only succeed at it once per long rest, I think I'd personally prefer if it was proficiency bonus attempts as while there'd be a chance it doesn't work at all, there'd also be a chance that you can do it multiple times. Either that or maybe half proficiency uses per long rest but only used on success?Definitely feels like it should be something that can be used more often anyway, as there's a real danger of using it to avoid an attack that wasn't that bad, only to regret succeeding when something far worse comes your way. Which makes it into one of those classic features where you hold off using it, only to then never use it because you were afraid it would be wasted.Update: Nevermind, apparently I can't read and have played it wrong!
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I mean if they make their save its only once vs them. But you can use it against others. Its main problem is the you have use it before you know it hits clause, though I've played in multiple campaigns and that never comes up as the DM just says I hit a Ac 20 etc. They aren't going they attack, what do you do. One it feels kind of douchy to try and coax it being used on a miss and two it just slows the game far too much.
Oh it's per attacker? In that case I've read and used it wrong so you can ignore my post entirely, heh, that's much better than I thought in that case!
Characters: Bullette, Chortle, Dracarys Noir, Edward Merryspell, Habard Ashery, Legion, Peregrine
My Homebrew: Feats | Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Races
Guides: Creating Sub-Races Using Trait Options
WIP (feedback needed): Blood Mage, Chromatic Sorcerers, Summoner, Trickster Domain, Unlucky, Way of the Daoist (Drunken Master), Weapon Smith
Please don't reply to my posts unless you've read what they actually say.
Making one enemy smash another, even if that happens infrequently (and it does), is awesome and should be tried. It's a moment that isn't happening all the time, but it's when it does it is joyous.
Very well said.
I like instinctive charm. I don't think I could ever get an enchanter to high enough level to use it though because I view hypnotic gaze so poorly.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha