Quote from Crawling_Chaos >>

I think the regeneration from the Loup Garou probably should have been on here, since while it does effectively give it more HP in the combat itself, regeneration is fundamentally different in that it continues to work after the fight is over. Which would make it more critical to hit the werewolf with something that stops their regen in its tracks, and that is where silvered weapons could have come in.

And perhaps instead of a longbow, they should have had a generic Throw attack that lets them toss whatever is around and still deal a significant amount of damage with it, to play up their more bestial disposition. Plus the picture for this monster is definitely not depicting someone who would be carrying a longbow with them.

That being said, the curse on this version is definitely a lot scarier, since it turns the character into a werewolf permanently if they drop to 0 HP while they have the curse.

You're correct. On its face, Regeneration is fundamentally different than more Hit Points because it can apply indefinitely. But is it functionally different? The evidence indicates no. Regeneration on average lasts 3 rounds. This data comes from the tens of thousands of hours of play testing that went into 5e and 6e (See Player's Handbook Credits).

The benefit of having Regeneration is exactly what you described: a creature with Regeneration can come back later with full (or at least more) Hit Points without needing to take a Short or Long Rest or avail itself of healing. Is that utility helpful—does it give depth to the werewolf's archetype or add interesting design feature?

Let's first discuss the werewolf archetype. Accelerated healing is common—though not universal—amongst werewolves in modern fantasy. However, accelerated healing is a newfound aspect of their folklore—the earliest reference I could find on that was the concept of only silver being able to harm werewolves, which originated in 1935. In fact, in many histories people could identify werewolves by injuring them while in wolf form then identifying the werewolf as a human by looking for the corresponding injury. For general context, the myth of werewolves goes back to at least 430 BC. So, Regeneration is not deeply rooted in the tradition and history of werewolves. But that doesn't mean it necessarily shouldn't be included in the stat block.

Let's discuss how Regeneration adds to the werewolf's game design. Is this monster meant to disengage from a fight and return—healed—before a party can themselves heal? I don't think that is the role of the werewolf. The stat block provided is more of a bruiser that benefits from strength-in-numbers rather than hit-and-run tactics (See Pack Tactics).

Of course, one can provide an ad hoc explanation of how Regeneration could be used to warrant filling the niche of guerrilla fighter: given that your werewolves can regenerate, they adopt hit-and-run tactics because that is the best strategy. But that reasoning is circular: Regeneration fulfills the archetype of the werewolf healing and coming back to fight, which is what it does because it has Regeneration.

But what if we did include Regeneration as part of the stat block and have our werewolves use guerrilla tactics (so that Regeneration doesn't simply last 3 rounds and thus be no different than simply translating Regeneration into more Hit Points)? The result is an oppressive, annoying enemy that is a real pain for parties to deal with. The werewolf(ves) attacks and runs away. Either the party chases to defeat it (or them) or lets it go. If the party succeeds in preventing the escape, then we have the scenario above regarding Regeneration essentially being more Hit Points. If it gets away, then the werewolf accomplished the same thing that simply having another werewolf (full Hit Points) available for later. There doesn't seem to be much add to the werewolf here.

If I'm missing some aspect of why werewolves having Regeneration would be great, then please elaborate on that. But as it is, Regeneration for werewolves just seems superfluous at best and oppressive at worst.

this just happened to a player in my party and now I'm trying to figure out what happens from here.  

Where silver-suppressed regen?

Quote from Tucupa >>

So can the werewolf use Scratch in his human form? It doesn't specify when it's available.

I think of it like the werewolves from Wednesday, like Enid, where they can make their nails longer and slash with them without transforming. I did the same thing with my Blood Hunter using the Altered feat before I become a Lycan (although I imagined it more like Sabretooth at the time before realizing Enid was more similar).

The Loup Garou is meant to be the pinnacle of werewolves, not a big standard werewolf to throw at parties. Most lycanthropes in pop culture do go beyond the archetypal "transform into big hybrid monster" whereas vampires in pop culture can have a number of abilities and magnitudes of importance and power, hence why you don't see much variance in lycanthropes outside of the animal they turn into.

This is ridiculous! They removed the damage immunities from the lyncanthropes. And the write-up in 2014 was so much better. Ugh!

Quote from Maruntoryx >>

I really hate how they handled players contracting lycanthropy in this edition. Hitting zero health is such a weird trigger and doesn't fit with any werewolf lore that I know of. And you lose your character with no say in the matter.

 Yeah, personally if I were to do it I would say that once you contract the curse you slowly turn into a werewolf over the course of several days. Also even once you fully turn into a werewolf you should still have control of your character when you’re not transformed.

Quote from xXloorpik_slayerXx >>

Quote from Maruntoryx >>

I really hate how they handled players contracting lycanthropy in this edition. Hitting zero health is such a weird trigger and doesn't fit with any werewolf lore that I know of. And you lose your character with no say in the matter.

 Yeah, personally if I were to do it I would say that once you contract the curse you slowly turn into a werewolf over the course of several days. Also even once you fully turn into a werewolf you should still have control of your character when you’re not transformed.

 I agree, this zero health rule seems like it was designed for NPC's, not PCs. How could you lose your character without any say in the matter? This monster is basically the equivalent of an intellect devourer for 6e.

Absolutely nothing about the changes they made are acceptable, at all, and absolutely all of TheOtherRyan's counterpoints can be summarized as "Stop complaining about any of Wizard's stuff, you meanie.🥺" with no actual thought put into his walls of text, and can be summarily ignored with just as little thought.

To add on to all of the valid criticisms put forth so far, not only were silvered weapons rendered no more valuable than normal weapons by these changes to lycanthropes, but they even doubled their cost, now being sold for 100g and only costing 50g if you're willing to spend the time to craft it yourself.

To me, the absolute worst part about the 2024 lycanthropes is that, RAW, it disallows any players from ever playing out being lycanthropes, and all it functionally does is make it so that you permanently lose your character upon hitting 0 hit points, no death saves.  This is OBJECTIVELY bad game design as it could never be made to ever feel satisfying to anyone at the table, ever, it's just a "No Fun Allowed" mechanic.  I'm fully willing to drop use of any content marked as Legacy so long as there's a newer equivalent, but this is not an equivalent by any sane stretch of the imagination.  I will be using the legacy version of the Curse of Lycanthropy and lycanthropes.  The only creature with "were" in its name that I'm satisfied with in the 2024 rules is the Jackalwere, as it never had anything to do with the Curse of Lycanthropy to begin with, except that it used to be a valid target of the curse and isn't anymore, due to properly no longer being classified as a humanoid.

Speaking of which, without the Curse of Lycanthropy being involved here, this means that a given character can be easily afflicted by every lycanthrope simultaneously.  It's possible under the legacy rules too, but the fact that they're different versions of the same curse means that only the "most potent" version is active, while the others become dormant, effectively making contracting a stronger preferable version a viable option for dealing with a weaker unwanted version.  Here though, the rules for dealing with the situation becomes vague.

I actually much prefer this stat block over the old one(That definitely felt more like a CR 2 is not for the damage immunities,) this has a lot of good stuff, but i would change the zero health lycanthropy rule to something better, I would only use that for NPCs. Also, I would take one damage die off of the longbow, but apart from those two minor issues, this is a lot more balanced than the old one.

I think the bow damage should be changed to that of a normal Shortbow (1d6+DEX). If the Werewolf is supposed to be a fairly normal hunter in their human form, I would think they would be armed with a Shortbow rather then the more expensive and hard to use Longbow. Werewolf stories never emphasize their deadly archery, so I don't know why they decided to make the Werewolf's bow deal more damage then its scratch.

If you want to use the Werewolf, I recommend giving it a high regeneration (10-20), but vulnerability to silver or negation of the regen when damaged by silver weapons.

This new official version of the werewolf is just lazy and too simplistic in design. Regeneration and vulnerability is not just an part of an abstract hit point value. These abilities of the werewolf are essential for strategic value and roleplaying.

A fleeing werewolf is a threat, because it will heal within a minute while the heroes can not recover. So chasing a werewolf can be a meaningful endeaveur, roleplaying and strategic. Beeing that strong the vulnerability offers the heroes possibilities of countermeasures, maybe even a whole standalone adventure of aquiring the sercret of their weakness or a set of silver weapons.

The new version is just dull and boring. Maybe well balanced, but I dont buy a MM für 50 bucks for having 300 generic monsters that are plain hp walls with mostly super simplistic design. For that you can just release one page of formulas of dmg/hp ration and relations to CR and your good to go.

The artworks and the online accessability of the new MM are great though. 

Quote from GrafZahn83 >>

If you want to use the Werewolf, I recommend giving it a high regeneration (10-20), but vulnerability to silver or negation of the regen when damaged by silver weapons.

This new official version of the werewolf is just lazy and too simplistic in design. Regeneration and vulnerability is not just an part of an abstract hit point value. These abilities of the werewolf are essential for strategic value and roleplaying.

A fleeing werewolf is a threat, because it will heal within a minute while the heroes can not recover. So chasing a werewolf can be a meaningful endeaveur, roleplaying and strategic. Beeing that strong the vulnerability offers the heroes possibilities of countermeasures, maybe even a whole standalone adventure of aquiring the sercret of their weakness or a set of silver weapons.

The new version is just dull and boring. Maybe well balanced, but I dont buy a MM für 50 bucks for having 300 generic monsters that are plain hp walls with mostly super simplistic design. For that you can just release one page of formulas of dmg/hp ration and relations to CR and your good to go.

The artworks and the online accessability of the new MM are great though. 

 I just don't know about this. Imao Werewolves are really interesting monsters, but neither this stat block or the legacy one in D&D just isn't that good. Old one has low damage and really the only thing that merited it being CR 3 was the damage immunities, not to mention it had really vague rules about players contracting lycanthropy. This one is around the same level as the old one(I do not personally agree that this one is worse than the old one, but its definitely not better.) This one just feels lazy as you said, and the rules for players contracting lycanthropy are now arguably way worse, as your character could now become an NPC werewolf with no cure. (Not to mention no mention of any silver vulnerability or regen in this stat block,)I just don't know. It's just bad.

Quote from TheOtherRyan >>

Quote from Crawling_Chaos >>

I think the regeneration from the Loup Garou probably should have been on here, since while it does effectively give it more HP in the combat itself, regeneration is fundamentally different in that it continues to work after the fight is over. Which would make it more critical to hit the werewolf with something that stops their regen in its tracks, and that is where silvered weapons could have come in.

And perhaps instead of a longbow, they should have had a generic Throw attack that lets them toss whatever is around and still deal a significant amount of damage with it, to play up their more bestial disposition. Plus the picture for this monster is definitely not depicting someone who would be carrying a longbow with them.

That being said, the curse on this version is definitely a lot scarier, since it turns the character into a werewolf permanently if they drop to 0 HP while they have the curse.

You're correct. On its face, Regeneration is fundamentally different than more Hit Points because it can apply indefinitely. But is it functionally different? The evidence indicates no. Regeneration on average lasts 3 rounds. This data comes from the tens of thousands of hours of play testing that went into 5e and 6e (See Player's Handbook Credits).

The benefit of having Regeneration is exactly what you described: a creature with Regeneration can come back later with full (or at least more) Hit Points without needing to take a Short or Long Rest or avail itself of healing. Is that utility helpful—does it give depth to the werewolf's archetype or add interesting design feature?

Let's first discuss the werewolf archetype. Accelerated healing is common—though not universal—amongst werewolves in modern fantasy. However, accelerated healing is a newfound aspect of their folklore—the earliest reference I could find on that was the concept of only silver being able to harm werewolves, which originated in 1935. In fact, in many histories people could identify werewolves by injuring them while in wolf form then identifying the werewolf as a human by looking for the corresponding injury. For general context, the myth of werewolves goes back to at least 430 BC. So, Regeneration is not deeply rooted in the tradition and history of werewolves. But that doesn't mean it necessarily shouldn't be included in the stat block.

Let's discuss how Regeneration adds to the werewolf's game design. Is this monster meant to disengage from a fight and return—healed—before a party can themselves heal? I don't think that is the role of the werewolf. The stat block provided is more of a bruiser that benefits from strength-in-numbers rather than hit-and-run tactics (See Pack Tactics).

Of course, one can provide an ad hoc explanation of how Regeneration could be used to warrant filling the niche of guerrilla fighter: given that your werewolves can regenerate, they adopt hit-and-run tactics because that is the best strategy. But that reasoning is circular: Regeneration fulfills the archetype of the werewolf healing and coming back to fight, which is what it does because it has Regeneration.

But what if we did include Regeneration as part of the stat block and have our werewolves use guerrilla tactics (so that Regeneration doesn't simply last 3 rounds and thus be no different than simply translating Regeneration into more Hit Points)? The result is an oppressive, annoying enemy that is a real pain for parties to deal with. The werewolf(ves) attacks and runs away. Either the party chases to defeat it (or them) or lets it go. If the party succeeds in preventing the escape, then we have the scenario above regarding Regeneration essentially being more Hit Points. If it gets away, then the werewolf accomplished the same thing that simply having another werewolf (full Hit Points) available for later. There doesn't seem to be much add to the werewolf here.

If I'm missing some aspect of why werewolves having Regeneration would be great, then please elaborate on that. But as it is, Regeneration for werewolves just seems superfluous at best and oppressive at worst.

 I would think that Regeneration could be a feature in a Werewolf stat block. Think about it this way, the characters are being hunted by a pack of werewolves in the wilderness. They are all in wolf form and use hit and run tactics to slowly run down their health, while regenerating themselves. This way, a fleeing werewolf is actually a threat, as it could return later at full hit points. This means the characters would have to be smart and strategic to escape from them. In a homebrew Werewolf I made, I reduced their hp back to 58, and gave them low regen. (5 hit points per round, suppressed by silvered weapons). However, they can still die if reduced to 0 hit points, so it isn't necessary to defeat them, that's my solution. If you disagree that's fine, but I think that this version of a Werewolf just needs a bit more unique features. (Also if their base HP was back to 58 I wouldn't have to try and come up with new HP values for the werewolves like Kiril in COS,)