Pretty much the title. How powerful does an entity have to be before it can become a patron to a Warlock? A solar can become a patron, as can most demon princes and lords of hell, but some of the patrons, such as the Archfey and Great Old Ones seem to have very vague definitions of their power, such as Oberon, who is described as having control over pretty much every tree and plant in the Feywild, or Ghaunadaur who seems to straddle the line between demon Prince and Great Old One.
Or how about Asmodeus, who is actually a God?
I know it seems silly, but I am a bit confused about what can become a patron to a Warlock and what couldn't.
First of all, do not ever feel a question feels silly if you are looking for clarification on something. Especially a topic as undefined as a warlock patron.
I think that's one of the great things about warlock patrons is that they are NOT defined by their perceived level of power and that ideally anything could potentially be a patron; they are really only limited by your imagination and/or any limits set by your DM. There is no "X must be met to be a warlock patron". I hope this helps you, Tangled.
I'd like to second Lyrel's comments on both counts. Absolutely.
Your excellent questions have fascinating implications. Can a warlock become more powerful than their patron? Could a patron come to see a powerful warlock as a partner or rival? This would have deep implications for the character. Another example: whether and why a god might also sponsor warlocks if they also have clergy. You mention Asmodeus. What would be his reasons to sponsor a second channel (warlocks) for his power and influence in the campaign world? How would his priests feel abut the presence of warlocks? Reverence for those "blessed" with direct interaction with the god or jealousy of the special relationship? Would they even know, or are warlocks secret?
Here is something funny, unlike clerics, Warlocks don't need a powerful being to keep their power. They are, like wizards, individuals who learned their powers from their patron. Or in some cases exposed or leeched off. So your character could be leeching off power from a tome of a corpse/dying entity. Power level? It has to be bit powerful god level? not necessarily demigods can teach mortals stuff too but keep in mind they took the short cut for their power. That's why they have less but powerful spell slots.
Of course you can trash all what i said and go with what you see more epic! This is D&D after all... a game only (somewhat) limited by imagination! .... and dice of course...
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Born under the watch of something from the furthest corners of the far realms.... It knows all.... it sees all... and it asks: "What is it that you want to see?"... and my answer is... ALL"
I think that the idea is the patron is a 'being of power', though this could mean any being with innate magic. Some interesting ideas for patrons that I'm playing around with:
Great Old One: Aboleth, Beholder, Illithid Elder Brain Fey: Dryad, Hag, Satyr
My original idea for my warlock was that she was forced to serve a demon that her sister had summoned and it held her prisoner and if she didn't serve, he'd send her to hell.
Now power isn't a huge deal, Think of this idea: You sought revenge against a local noble who dishonored a family member and the fiend caused them to have such horrible nightmares that it made them confess to their family and they were disowned and now travel the countryside trying to survive. Being able to cause nightmares and nothing else wouldn't qualify you as being uber powerful, but it did as you ask, so you happily serve it
The plan I am kicking around, is a celestial warlock serving the vestige of Mystryl, the original goddess of magic on Toril. My theory is that when Mystyrl sacrificed herself due to Karsus and was instantly reincarnated as Mystra, a small, chaotic part (Mystryl was Chaotic Neutral, Mystra was reincarnated as Lawful Neutral) of her essence went unclaimed by the new goddess and became a weave ghost of sorts.
Fast forward to more modern times, and Larloch, the last of Mystryl's original chosen was defeated. The vestige of Mystryl was able to reclaim that power (as it was never Mystra's) which boosts her power considerably. She knows that she will not be able to reclaim the portfolio of magic, but one of her original portfolios, spontaneous spellcasters, was apparently never picked up by Mystra. So, Mystryl is making a play to reclaim that old portfolio and with it, her divinity.
Peradan, a young tiefling, is the first one she approaches as his soul is not yet claimed by any god or goddess. In exchange for his worship and spreading her word, she's willing to grant him some power...
She's something of an echo of the original goddess of magic, and I have no idea how the new goddess of magic will react to it.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
That sounds perfectly good, I think any mid level power entity can give you access to potent magics, maybe when you exceed their capabilities you find someone higher up the food chain. Like for the celestial you might start with a low level archon as your patron and they might pass you off to someone higher up the food chain. Or alternatively you are being 'groomed' for something more than what you are currently. Maybe X god has shown interest in you, and they send a low level emissary to cultivate your potential. That seems totally legit to me. They may not be willing to spend their time to directly influence you, but they will spend a few moments to send someone else off to get you properly trained to become their emissary.
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"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
the patron has no defined minimum power. it merely must deliver its end of the bargain... which could have been stolen. one of azomodeus' lowly imp servants could have covertly channeled some power to the warlock that the imp would otherwise be unable to weild. a tome, his masters dark thoughts, the sword of 1000 truths etc. perhaps all those things.
the patron has no defined minimum power. it merely must deliver its end of the bargain... which could have been stolen. one of azomodeus' lowly imp servants could have covertly channeled some power to the warlock that the imp would otherwise be unable to weild. a tome, his masters dark thoughts, the sword of 1000 truths etc. perhaps all those things.
That might be a cool patron...an imp that's managed to steal power somehow, and is trying to get his warlock to do enough with it to get him promoted out of imp-dom.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
A Celestial Pact Patron can be a Unicorn which is a CR 5 creature, so I'd say that your patron doesn't have to be very powerful at all. Your patron just has to be supernatural in some way in order to have access to secrets that can be passed on to you.
People have made some excellent point. Whether the being gives them access to powers that they themselves have access to, or knowledge that they have taken it could all still work out. Could make for some really interesting scenarios in game.
With the imp concept, what happens when his higher up makes some realization of what he is doing. Will they be impressed, or angered. Maybe they will test the warlock to see if they were worthy of their power. Could make a whole arc that they mastermind just to test whether they are worthy of the power. Like they said maybe this gets the imp an upgrade in the hierarchy of hell. That kinda shit gets me all excited thinking of things I had not thought of before. A++
A do gooding Cherub going out of its way to support you even though it knows it shouldn't (maybe you are a tiefling or something) and they want to bring you to the light side. Maybe giving you keys to knowledge it didn't have permission to give you. Might make for a side plot of having to defend the cherubs decision in a celestial court (or just in front of some arbitrator, Modron?).
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
As far as i know, most boons a Warlock gets are defined as knowledge rather than raw power. So an Imp who got the hold of some nice informations for his little pact-buddy can already be sufficient as a Patron.
Going back to raw power as requirement, like the idea of a bunch of low-ranking guys who chip in to bestow an warlock with power. Having conferences about how the best utiliser their new agent. And every boon you get as a warlock is just a gift from one of the guys on the council.
As far as i know, most boons a Warlock gets are defined as knowledge rather than raw power. So an Imp who got the hold of some nice informations for his little pact-buddy can already be sufficient as a Patron.
Going back to raw power as requirement, like the idea of a bunch of low-ranking guys who chip in to bestow an warlock with power. Having conferences about how the best utiliser their new agent. And every boon you get as a warlock is just a gift from one of the guys on the council.
I was starting to think along these same lines as I was reading through the thread.
Really, the only minimal requirement for a patron is that they're able to give the warlock their powers. So it might make for quite a story if a warlock comes to find out his patron really has no real power of their own, but has been faking it and fudging the situation by giving them powers, say, through a bunch of Wish scrolls that the patron's former wizard master left behind, or by teaching him spells from the patron's dead master's spellbook.
The idea of a council of lesser beings acting as a patron is also pretty intriguing.
Just FYI, in most settings, Asmodeus isn’t quite a god: just an incredibly powerful extraplanar being. I can only really think of Asmodeus being a god in the Dawn War pantheon. That’s why you don’t see paladins or clerics of Asmodeus: because he isn’t quite a god. You can serve as a warlock though.
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Pretty much the title. How powerful does an entity have to be before it can become a patron to a Warlock? A solar can become a patron, as can most demon princes and lords of hell, but some of the patrons, such as the Archfey and Great Old Ones seem to have very vague definitions of their power, such as Oberon, who is described as having control over pretty much every tree and plant in the Feywild, or Ghaunadaur who seems to straddle the line between demon Prince and Great Old One.
Or how about Asmodeus, who is actually a God?
I know it seems silly, but I am a bit confused about what can become a patron to a Warlock and what couldn't.
First of all, do not ever feel a question feels silly if you are looking for clarification on something. Especially a topic as undefined as a warlock patron.
I think that's one of the great things about warlock patrons is that they are NOT defined by their perceived level of power and that ideally anything could potentially be a patron; they are really only limited by your imagination and/or any limits set by your DM. There is no "X must be met to be a warlock patron". I hope this helps you, Tangled.
Valaith "Rimehand" Kalukavi - Chronicles of Arden
Thank you Lyrel, this does make me feel better, so thanks for taking the time to respond.
I'd like to second Lyrel's comments on both counts. Absolutely.
Your excellent questions have fascinating implications. Can a warlock become more powerful than their patron? Could a patron come to see a powerful warlock as a partner or rival? This would have deep implications for the character. Another example: whether and why a god might also sponsor warlocks if they also have clergy. You mention Asmodeus. What would be his reasons to sponsor a second channel (warlocks) for his power and influence in the campaign world? How would his priests feel abut the presence of warlocks? Reverence for those "blessed" with direct interaction with the god or jealousy of the special relationship? Would they even know, or are warlocks secret?
Here is something funny, unlike clerics, Warlocks don't need a powerful being to keep their power. They are, like wizards, individuals who learned their powers from their patron. Or in some cases exposed or leeched off. So your character could be leeching off power from a tome of a corpse/dying entity. Power level? It has to be bit powerful god level? not necessarily demigods can teach mortals stuff too but keep in mind they took the short cut for their power. That's why they have less but powerful spell slots.
Of course you can trash all what i said and go with what you see more epic! This is D&D after all... a game only (somewhat) limited by imagination! .... and dice of course...
Born under the watch of something from the furthest corners of the far realms.... It knows all.... it sees all... and it asks: "What is it that you want to see?"... and my answer is... ALL"
I think that the idea is the patron is a 'being of power', though this could mean any being with innate magic.
Some interesting ideas for patrons that I'm playing around with:
Great Old One: Aboleth, Beholder, Illithid Elder Brain
Fey: Dryad, Hag, Satyr
Fierna is the best Duchess of Hell
Can the lord of imps give you power?
Sure, if that is the story. A master isnt a master until an apprentice can exceed him. So it can happen...just not at level 1.
Changes the patron to advisor. Story is fine so why not?
My original idea for my warlock was that she was forced to serve a demon that her sister had summoned and it held her prisoner and if she didn't serve, he'd send her to hell.
Now power isn't a huge deal, Think of this idea: You sought revenge against a local noble who dishonored a family member and the fiend caused them to have such horrible nightmares that it made them confess to their family and they were disowned and now travel the countryside trying to survive. Being able to cause nightmares and nothing else wouldn't qualify you as being uber powerful, but it did as you ask, so you happily serve it
Use, that's literally the plot to Brimstone Angels, the DnD book. Just FYI, very good book if you're interested.
The plan I am kicking around, is a celestial warlock serving the vestige of Mystryl, the original goddess of magic on Toril. My theory is that when Mystyrl sacrificed herself due to Karsus and was instantly reincarnated as Mystra, a small, chaotic part (Mystryl was Chaotic Neutral, Mystra was reincarnated as Lawful Neutral) of her essence went unclaimed by the new goddess and became a weave ghost of sorts.
Fast forward to more modern times, and Larloch, the last of Mystryl's original chosen was defeated. The vestige of Mystryl was able to reclaim that power (as it was never Mystra's) which boosts her power considerably. She knows that she will not be able to reclaim the portfolio of magic, but one of her original portfolios, spontaneous spellcasters, was apparently never picked up by Mystra. So, Mystryl is making a play to reclaim that old portfolio and with it, her divinity.
Peradan, a young tiefling, is the first one she approaches as his soul is not yet claimed by any god or goddess. In exchange for his worship and spreading her word, she's willing to grant him some power...
She's something of an echo of the original goddess of magic, and I have no idea how the new goddess of magic will react to it.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
That sounds perfectly good, I think any mid level power entity can give you access to potent magics, maybe when you exceed their capabilities you find someone higher up the food chain. Like for the celestial you might start with a low level archon as your patron and they might pass you off to someone higher up the food chain. Or alternatively you are being 'groomed' for something more than what you are currently. Maybe X god has shown interest in you, and they send a low level emissary to cultivate your potential. That seems totally legit to me. They may not be willing to spend their time to directly influence you, but they will spend a few moments to send someone else off to get you properly trained to become their emissary.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
the patron has no defined minimum power. it merely must deliver its end of the bargain... which could have been stolen. one of azomodeus' lowly imp servants could have covertly channeled some power to the warlock that the imp would otherwise be unable to weild. a tome, his masters dark thoughts, the sword of 1000 truths etc. perhaps all those things.
Jesus Saves!... Everyone else takes damage.
That might be a cool patron...an imp that's managed to steal power somehow, and is trying to get his warlock to do enough with it to get him promoted out of imp-dom.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
A Celestial Pact Patron can be a Unicorn which is a CR 5 creature, so I'd say that your patron doesn't have to be very powerful at all. Your patron just has to be supernatural in some way in order to have access to secrets that can be passed on to you.
Professional computer geek
People have made some excellent point. Whether the being gives them access to powers that they themselves have access to, or knowledge that they have taken it could all still work out. Could make for some really interesting scenarios in game.
With the imp concept, what happens when his higher up makes some realization of what he is doing. Will they be impressed, or angered. Maybe they will test the warlock to see if they were worthy of their power. Could make a whole arc that they mastermind just to test whether they are worthy of the power. Like they said maybe this gets the imp an upgrade in the hierarchy of hell. That kinda shit gets me all excited thinking of things I had not thought of before. A++
A do gooding Cherub going out of its way to support you even though it knows it shouldn't (maybe you are a tiefling or something) and they want to bring you to the light side. Maybe giving you keys to knowledge it didn't have permission to give you. Might make for a side plot of having to defend the cherubs decision in a celestial court (or just in front of some arbitrator, Modron?).
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
As far as i know, most boons a Warlock gets are defined as knowledge rather than raw power. So an Imp who got the hold of some nice informations for his little pact-buddy can already be sufficient as a Patron.
Going back to raw power as requirement, like the idea of a bunch of low-ranking guys who chip in to bestow an warlock with power. Having conferences about how the best utiliser their new agent. And every boon you get as a warlock is just a gift from one of the guys on the council.
I was starting to think along these same lines as I was reading through the thread.
Really, the only minimal requirement for a patron is that they're able to give the warlock their powers. So it might make for quite a story if a warlock comes to find out his patron really has no real power of their own, but has been faking it and fudging the situation by giving them powers, say, through a bunch of Wish scrolls that the patron's former wizard master left behind, or by teaching him spells from the patron's dead master's spellbook.
The idea of a council of lesser beings acting as a patron is also pretty intriguing.
Whistler
Titus - V. Human Battle Master Fighter 3 - [Pic] - [Pic2] - [Traits] - in Shadowglass
Locke - V. Human Shadow Monk 3 / Undead Warlock 2 - [Pic] - [Traits] - in FOW - DMless West Marches
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>> New FOW threat & treasure tables: fow-advanced-threat-tables.pdf fow-advanced-treasure-table.pdf
Just FYI, in most settings, Asmodeus isn’t quite a god: just an incredibly powerful extraplanar being. I can only really think of Asmodeus being a god in the Dawn War pantheon. That’s why you don’t see paladins or clerics of Asmodeus: because he isn’t quite a god. You can serve as a warlock though.