When I open the page, everything I would want at a glance is there: abilities, movement, defenses, hit points, saving throws, skills, attacks.
I do believe some sections can be better highlighted as sections but access is much better than the old sheet.
It's not just an index. It contains a lot of useful information and a lot more is a click away. I would even say lots of information that most players forget or ignore because it's too far away from them.
The PHB is still the basis of the game. It's what players read when they start. And lots of my friends who use DNDBeyond still have the books around and that's what they know. Some of them even keep the book open to useful sections. A reference to the PHB would be very useful to them. Because they know it and can get around in it.
In the previous sheet, the spell slots weren't very accessible either. Even just repositioning helps. Now, I just go to the spell section and everything is there. It's not hard to find, it was explained many times before and you just need to know it's there (I admit, it could be made better visually) and it's easy to access.
You count spell slots? When? You always want to know what you have per level? Or is that just another evidence how each game is different and every player is different
What I did to add equipment earlier? Scroll down, find the equipment section because it's different in mobile and desktop, click add items, wait for it to load, search item, add item. What do I do now? Click equipment, click cog, search item (because it's already there), add item. Don't see the big problem or the big difference.
I agree better distinction of the major sections like AC and initiative is in order but, I, for instance, rarely use passive scores, especially anything other than perception.
And base abilities are always the most important, especially for new players.
I might also suggest having skills in a wide box underneath abilities because I use them more than anything else. I usually have one combat per session but tons of use of skills, saves and straight abilities.
Honestly, the green marker next to skills was almost imperceptible to me. The expertise tag was visible. A big black circle on white is much easier.
I do wish that the sidebar won't be longer than the window height so I wouldn't have to scroll the entire page just to read a bit more on a section that I clicked.
Monk unarmored defence doesn't show up when you click on defences for your character, I feel that it should be mentioned in there as a reminder to players who receive a bonus to AC due to that
I understand that the monk skills in general are still working on a minor revamp of the character sheet so I can't wait for the easier tracking of ki points.
Another thing that I noticed on my monk is, unarmed attack states that it is 1 + STR, but with monk it has an actual table that the players go off of to indicate unarmed damage and monk weapon damage.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Nykkan Fharngnarthnost: Dragonborn Monk (4)...Coliseum of Conquest (3) {1W-6L} [Brewer]
Hans Stormsong: Human Monk (1)...Colosseum of Conquest (3) {0W-1L}
While the functionality improvements are excellent, this is a massive step backwards in user experience and design.
Good web design gives you access to the information you need as you need it, not all at the same time. Why would you replicate a 45-year-old pen and paper character sheet design, instead of continuing to use clean modern web design?
Thanks for the feedback. To offer some counterpoints:
Here's the biggest problem: this design is fundamentally unfriendly to new players.
New players have years of experience with clean modern web design, thanks to Facebook, Apple, Google and the like. These companies have ingrained standard patterns of interface design and user behaviour into literally billions of people - everyone knows to pinch to zoom, or pull to refresh, because these designs cut across everything we use. The old Beyond design built on those patterns of design; you didn't have to learn how to use Beyond, because you already knew how. It was the same as any other modern web tool - intuitive to any five-year-old who's ever used an iPad. This redesign disregards all digital design principles users are intuitively familiar with from modern web design, in favour of recreating a pen and paper experience.
This character sheet is basically just an index you click on, to bring up the relevant rules in the side pane - it's functionally no different from just flicking between PHB pages.
This redesign clearly did not consider new players, and their ability to quickly and easily pick up the game; it did not consider how modern web design allows you to present and access information in ways more efficient than just having an index and a reference book.
Expandable drop down items. Simple visual representations. Clear visual distinctions between objects and sections. These are core to modern design, and all seem to have gone out the window. The best thing about using Beyond was that it wasn't burdened by the D&D character sheet's existing design paradigm and 45 years of history; it gave a fresh, clean interface, relevant for a modern digital toolset like Beyond. Returning to the information overload of the pen and paper character sheet is a bad decision, if for no other reason than it makes it exponentially harder to introduce new players to the game.
Previously, information was sorted into clean, simple headings, following the principles of modern web design in a way that any of those five-year-olds I mentioned before can navigate; now it's an information overload, where you almost have to know specifically what you're looking for in order to find it anywhere. When you do find it and click it, all you get is "great, here's the relevant section of the PHB; you can figure out how it works yourself."
Lots of generalizations and opinions here, and based on the theoretical instead of actual play using the sheet. First of all, this was playtested with hundreds of beginner players and the feedback was positive. When UX testing was performed with new players, a great deal of negative feedback was recorded regarding the collapsibles and how difficult it was to find specific information when asked (like a DM would do during a session) on the old sheet.
Additionally, Dungeons & Dragons as an interactive game that is played is far different than browsing Ars Technica's news content. In other words, designing a digital character sheet for use during play of a game with a complex ruleset might not be conducive to the same modern design principles as a general news/ content/ blog website.
Lastly on this section, when you click to pull in the sidebar, we are absolutely not just plopping down a section of the PHB and forcing you to fend for yourself - the content in that sidebar is both specific and focused on what was clicked. The design goal was to capture what information might need to be seen and understood at a glance while still providing the full context from the rules of the game that we support close at hand. Now we might not have gotten the balance between those two perfectly right as a first pass, but the design intent is not necessarily bad because it doesn't fit into the mold of some other websites out there.
Plenty of websites (especially those that would be considered closer to an "app" and have meaningful information to show in it) use sidebars effectively. A great example is Google Drive.
Spell slots were previously a nice easily understood grid of checkboxes of how many you had at each level, visible clearly on the main page.
Now, if you want to know how many spell slots you have, you have to find the spells tab on the confusingly grouped combat/actions/spells/equipment pane, click the right tab, then count up the numbers next to the levels of your slots. Why on earth would you get rid of a perfect at-a-glance way of visually representing spell slots, and replace it with 'count up all these numbers'?
Under the old design: "Hmm, what's the right spell for this situation? Let me scroll through my list."
New design: "Hmm, what's the right spell for this situation? Let me click back and forth between tabs for each level, or again open up that unmarked cog to get that sidebar thing."
The numbers representing spell slots on each spell level are quick indicators, and you still get the visual boxes at each level - you don't have to open the sidebar to check them. This was also based on feedback that most players tested got overwhelmed by having the entire spell list/ spell slot boxes thrown at them. If we see the representative sample is not in fact representative of the broader community, we will make adjustments.
Oh no wait, you can still get the visual layout - you just have to go to the spells tab, click the completely un-obvious cog to open the side pane, then expand out the drop-down for spell slots. Three unclear steps - so much easier than just having it immediately visible! /s
Want to add an item previously? Easy! In the Equipment pane, click add item, search, and add it!
Whoops, now you've got to go into the equipment tab and search for an item, then click add item, then search for the item again, then add it, then clear your previous search to see your items, then scroll down to the new item. That's much easier! /s
Alternatively, you can click on the completely unexplained cog in the bottom right corner.
This goes completely against sensible UX - when people want to add an item, they're not going to think "I should search for an item, or click that tiny almost invisible cog", they're going to look for something that says "Add Item".
I agree (and we asked the question before release and ultimately decided to see what kind of feedback we got) that the cog icon is not enough to call out spell or equipment management. Our goal of utilizing screen real estate more effectively (instead of having strange puzzle pieces that players had a hard time of navigating) was on our mind with the icon, but we saw the early feedback and know that it's not enough. A change was already developed today, is being tested, and should roll out tomorrow.
There used to be a nice visual distinction for key useful numbers - AC, Initiative, Passive Perception, Move Speed, etc; they were separated out at the top, in a visually distinct section, because they're useful numbers. What's it like now?
There is basically zero visual distinction between my base stats, walking speed, and proficiency bonus
Passive stats are buried off to the side separately
AC is only visible if you have the combat tab open (WHY?)
Also why do base stats take up so much space?
You're making some assumptions here on priority of information. You could be correct, but what you feel like should always be exposed might not be the same as what others would want. Again, this was based on hundreds of thousands of posts and internal and external playtesting (and UX testing with focus groups). This is what we came up with as a starting point. Many players wanted the ability scores to be prominent, for instance.
Having said all of that, we are paying attention to information display priority and I would expect some tweaks to that in the coming weeks as we sort through what is reactive versus real, especially after actual use during play.
No clear section headings to direct new players. Used to have clear, visually distinct headings - Abilities, Skills, Attacks, Equipment, etc. - with a clear difference in background colour, to identify them as headings.
"Yeah nah, let's make them visually indistinct, move some of them to the bottom of the pane (like Senses, Saving Throws, and Skills), and move the rest into equally unremarkable tabs at the top (Combat, Actions, Features and Traits)."
Or, how about, you know, have visually clear headings that are both consistent in terms of their placement in the pane, and visually distinct?
Your opinion for this is noted, and I'll share that your calling it out here is the first time we've seen this specific feedback in any of our months-long testing. We'll keep an eye on whether players do indeed struggle with this and adjust if needed.
Skills. Before: nice modern UI, with unintrusive indication of which base stat was relevant to the skill, and modern green 'notification' style dots to indicate proficiency.
Now: Remember when you were in school and had to fill out those machine-marked tests by filling in the right circle? THEY'RE BACK BABY.
Suddenly, a third of the entire panel is taken up by literally one dot and three letters.
Speaking of skills, why has the font size and weight of everything in that panel been changed to the least sensible combination? The bonus number shouldn't be bold, and nor should the three letter base stat abbreviation, because those aren't what needs to catch my eye when I look at that pane; what I'm going to be looking for more often than not is the name of the skill! But let's keep that nice and plain, because we'd rather you see a whole bunch of bolded numbers and then have to figure out which one is which, than easily find the skill and then look across for the bonus number!
The green notification style dots used for proficiency were literally the most-reported point of confusion in all of our feedback and testing. Virtually no one knew what they meant and 9 out of 10 people requested a better visual representation of not only proficiency but half and twice proficiency.
If we see that folks are struggling with the text formatting for skill names or numbers we will indeed make changes to that.
Saving throws: remember the good old days (last week) when the section that explained what you had advantage on for your saving throws had all the words there? Yeah, those were the days.
Now if you have multiple different ones, the text gets cut off by an ellipsis (...), and you have to mouse over it to read it.
Many testers complained about the space the save modifiers were taking up, and that those were elements they needed to see when making saves but that the full information was "already known." So, with that feedback, we made that section more of a "notification." If players wanted to be reminded of the full information they could mouse over or pull in the sidebar.
We'll see if that was the right approach over time and keep an eye on it.
Spells: Before, a nice list with good use of bold font for names, with other details in lighter, smaller font. Nice little colourful icons to visually distinguish different spell schools.
Now: Italics baby. Also do you like Excel spreadsheets? Cause that's what you've got now.
Spells in D&D are italicized. We need to support that formatting standard as WotC uses it. In our testing, we also observed that spell school has very little to do with a player making spellcasting choices, so we de-emphasized it. When's the last time you cast a fireball because it was an evocation spell? If you're an evoker and care, you likely already know its school. Also, it's relatively easy for me to point to make the claim that people do like spreadsheets for the presentation of like/ similar information because it makes it easier to digest.
In fact, font in general. Did this change? Because everything feels a lot less readable - feels much denser and smaller.
Yes, fonts changed in an attempt to utilize the space as I noted above. If we end up needing to make changes for readability, we will do it.
Also the side panel - massively awkward at times. Clicked on a class feature? Great! We won't just use a familiar expandable item to give you the information you wanted where you clicked - instead you have to look all the way up over here at this new window thing that's opened! Isn't that easy to follow?!
We received many more complaints about how players didn't like the way collapsibles moved all the other content around the element they were browsing when clicked than any other thing with the old sheet (except for the green proficiency dots). The sidebar was a way for us to still be able to fit in full description information without the information in the character sheet jumping around.
Actually I know why this pisses me off - it's because it feels like instead of having a modern digital toolset, that's designed for digital use, I'm just flipping back and forth between my character sheet (main panes) and the PHB/DMG/whatever (side pane). The whole advantage of digital tools is you shouldn't have to be flipping back and forth, because in a modern digital toolset, your character sheet should be interactive, not just an index you click on that brings up a second reference document on the side. A digital character sheet should not act like a piece of paper. If I click on a spell because I want more details, it should expand the details right there, not ask me to look up some other reference pane. That's the whole point of digital design - get what you want, where you need it.
I've never been able to touch a piece of paper and have every detail about what I touched slide in magically on the side of it. I know - particularly at this point in what you wrote - that there's some healthy ranting going on (as you state below) - but I have to say that "flipping back and forth" is a bit of a dramatic phrase for what's actually happening on a screen. I click a spell (and for many spells, I hopefully didn't even click because I saw all the major info I needed to make my decision already at a glance in the list) and the sidebar appears, even on the largest screens that would typically fit on a desk, a few inches away.
This has been a rambling rant, but the fundamental question I have is this:
Why are you trying to recreate the pen and paper experience, when you should be designing a modern, interactive web tool?
Why can't we have both? [insert meme here]
In all seriousness, we are trying to walk that line. We might not always succeed, but we are going to be earnest in the attempt, course correct where needed, and relentlessly work towards making this better and better. Sure, we are trying to make a modern, interactive tool, but we are supporting a pen and paper game (not a video game).
I hope you take my comments in the spirit that I wrote them - an attempt to explain our rationale for the design decisions we made and how much feedback and testing played into it - and not as anything personal. You do make some solid and valid points that we will add to our consideration as we parse feedback in the coming weeks.
Thanks!
Thanks BadEye for a well put together response!
I agree with a lot of QQMcRage's points and would love to see the functionality of the new layout in more friendly and modern design. This implementation feels like DnDBeyond has simply taken the paper sheets and embedded hotlinks.
In my respectful submission, might I suggest starting by shrinking the stat lists and using that space to make a better spell list? The implementation in the new version is very awkward, especially hiding the spellbook under the 'cog'.
While this is personal preference, I believe that the 'neo-retro' design is a case of the form tail wagging the usability dog, and allowing a 'modern' theme would be greatly appreciated.
Monk unarmored defence doesn't show up when you click on defences for your character, I feel that it should be mentioned in there as a reminder to players who receive a bonus to AC due to that
I understand that the monk skills in general are still working on a minor revamp of the character sheet so I can't wait for the easier tracking of ki points.
Another thing that I noticed on my monk is, unarmed attack states that it is 1 + STR, but with monk it has an actual table that the players go off of to indicate unarmed damage and monk weapon damage.
Strange, my Monk displays properly (click on AC and unarmored defense is listed, and my unarmed strike is the 1d4 instead of 1. Do you have any homebrew stuff on that character by chance? Way earlier in this thread someone had an issue of things not showing up and the fix was to remove all homebrew content then readd it.
In Chrome on my phone (Nexus 5X) the header bar shows the character tidbits, hit points display and inspiration button.
In Chrome on my iPad Mini, the header bar shows the character tidbits section, the short rest button, the long rest button and the character builder button. This means that hit points are not easily accessible while on the combat screen, which is very inconvenient as a player needs to swap between the combat screen and abilities, saves, etc. screen frequently during combat.
Please change the display on iPad Mini to show hit points instead of the character builder and long rest buttons, which are needed much less frequently and are already easily accessed from the tidbits drop-down menu.
While the functionality improvements are excellent, this is a massive step backwards in user experience and design.
Good web design gives you access to the information you need as you need it, not all at the same time. Why would you replicate a 45-year-old pen and paper character sheet design, instead of continuing to use clean modern web design?
Thanks for the feedback. To offer some counterpoints:
Here's the biggest problem: this design is fundamentally unfriendly to new players.
New players have years of experience with clean modern web design, thanks to Facebook, Apple, Google and the like. These companies have ingrained standard patterns of interface design and user behaviour into literally billions of people - everyone knows to pinch to zoom, or pull to refresh, because these designs cut across everything we use. The old Beyond design built on those patterns of design; you didn't have to learn how to use Beyond, because you already knew how. It was the same as any other modern web tool - intuitive to any five-year-old who's ever used an iPad. This redesign disregards all digital design principles users are intuitively familiar with from modern web design, in favour of recreating a pen and paper experience.
This character sheet is basically just an index you click on, to bring up the relevant rules in the side pane - it's functionally no different from just flicking between PHB pages.
This redesign clearly did not consider new players, and their ability to quickly and easily pick up the game; it did not consider how modern web design allows you to present and access information in ways more efficient than just having an index and a reference book.
Expandable drop down items. Simple visual representations. Clear visual distinctions between objects and sections. These are core to modern design, and all seem to have gone out the window. The best thing about using Beyond was that it wasn't burdened by the D&D character sheet's existing design paradigm and 45 years of history; it gave a fresh, clean interface, relevant for a modern digital toolset like Beyond. Returning to the information overload of the pen and paper character sheet is a bad decision, if for no other reason than it makes it exponentially harder to introduce new players to the game.
Previously, information was sorted into clean, simple headings, following the principles of modern web design in a way that any of those five-year-olds I mentioned before can navigate; now it's an information overload, where you almost have to know specifically what you're looking for in order to find it anywhere. When you do find it and click it, all you get is "great, here's the relevant section of the PHB; you can figure out how it works yourself."
Lots of generalizations and opinions here, and based on the theoretical instead of actual play using the sheet. First of all, this was playtested with hundreds of beginner players and the feedback was positive. When UX testing was performed with new players, a great deal of negative feedback was recorded regarding the collapsibles and how difficult it was to find specific information when asked (like a DM would do during a session) on the old sheet.
Additionally, Dungeons & Dragons as an interactive game that is played is far different than browsing Ars Technica's news content. In other words, designing a digital character sheet for use during play of a game with a complex ruleset might not be conducive to the same modern design principles as a general news/ content/ blog website.
Lastly on this section, when you click to pull in the sidebar, we are absolutely not just plopping down a section of the PHB and forcing you to fend for yourself - the content in that sidebar is both specific and focused on what was clicked. The design goal was to capture what information might need to be seen and understood at a glance while still providing the full context from the rules of the game that we support close at hand. Now we might not have gotten the balance between those two perfectly right as a first pass, but the design intent is not necessarily bad because it doesn't fit into the mold of some other websites out there.
Plenty of websites (especially those that would be considered closer to an "app" and have meaningful information to show in it) use sidebars effectively. A great example is Google Drive.
Spell slots were previously a nice easily understood grid of checkboxes of how many you had at each level, visible clearly on the main page.
Now, if you want to know how many spell slots you have, you have to find the spells tab on the confusingly grouped combat/actions/spells/equipment pane, click the right tab, then count up the numbers next to the levels of your slots. Why on earth would you get rid of a perfect at-a-glance way of visually representing spell slots, and replace it with 'count up all these numbers'?
Under the old design: "Hmm, what's the right spell for this situation? Let me scroll through my list."
New design: "Hmm, what's the right spell for this situation? Let me click back and forth between tabs for each level, or again open up that unmarked cog to get that sidebar thing."
The numbers representing spell slots on each spell level are quick indicators, and you still get the visual boxes at each level - you don't have to open the sidebar to check them. This was also based on feedback that most players tested got overwhelmed by having the entire spell list/ spell slot boxes thrown at them. If we see the representative sample is not in fact representative of the broader community, we will make adjustments.
Oh no wait, you can still get the visual layout - you just have to go to the spells tab, click the completely un-obvious cog to open the side pane, then expand out the drop-down for spell slots. Three unclear steps - so much easier than just having it immediately visible! /s
Want to add an item previously? Easy! In the Equipment pane, click add item, search, and add it!
Whoops, now you've got to go into the equipment tab and search for an item, then click add item, then search for the item again, then add it, then clear your previous search to see your items, then scroll down to the new item. That's much easier! /s
Alternatively, you can click on the completely unexplained cog in the bottom right corner.
This goes completely against sensible UX - when people want to add an item, they're not going to think "I should search for an item, or click that tiny almost invisible cog", they're going to look for something that says "Add Item".
I agree (and we asked the question before release and ultimately decided to see what kind of feedback we got) that the cog icon is not enough to call out spell or equipment management. Our goal of utilizing screen real estate more effectively (instead of having strange puzzle pieces that players had a hard time of navigating) was on our mind with the icon, but we saw the early feedback and know that it's not enough. A change was already developed today, is being tested, and should roll out tomorrow.
There used to be a nice visual distinction for key useful numbers - AC, Initiative, Passive Perception, Move Speed, etc; they were separated out at the top, in a visually distinct section, because they're useful numbers. What's it like now?
There is basically zero visual distinction between my base stats, walking speed, and proficiency bonus
Passive stats are buried off to the side separately
AC is only visible if you have the combat tab open (WHY?)
Also why do base stats take up so much space?
You're making some assumptions here on priority of information. You could be correct, but what you feel like should always be exposed might not be the same as what others would want. Again, this was based on hundreds of thousands of posts and internal and external playtesting (and UX testing with focus groups). This is what we came up with as a starting point. Many players wanted the ability scores to be prominent, for instance.
Having said all of that, we are paying attention to information display priority and I would expect some tweaks to that in the coming weeks as we sort through what is reactive versus real, especially after actual use during play.
No clear section headings to direct new players. Used to have clear, visually distinct headings - Abilities, Skills, Attacks, Equipment, etc. - with a clear difference in background colour, to identify them as headings.
"Yeah nah, let's make them visually indistinct, move some of them to the bottom of the pane (like Senses, Saving Throws, and Skills), and move the rest into equally unremarkable tabs at the top (Combat, Actions, Features and Traits)."
Or, how about, you know, have visually clear headings that are both consistent in terms of their placement in the pane, and visually distinct?
Your opinion for this is noted, and I'll share that your calling it out here is the first time we've seen this specific feedback in any of our months-long testing. We'll keep an eye on whether players do indeed struggle with this and adjust if needed.
Skills. Before: nice modern UI, with unintrusive indication of which base stat was relevant to the skill, and modern green 'notification' style dots to indicate proficiency.
Now: Remember when you were in school and had to fill out those machine-marked tests by filling in the right circle? THEY'RE BACK BABY.
Suddenly, a third of the entire panel is taken up by literally one dot and three letters.
Speaking of skills, why has the font size and weight of everything in that panel been changed to the least sensible combination? The bonus number shouldn't be bold, and nor should the three letter base stat abbreviation, because those aren't what needs to catch my eye when I look at that pane; what I'm going to be looking for more often than not is the name of the skill! But let's keep that nice and plain, because we'd rather you see a whole bunch of bolded numbers and then have to figure out which one is which, than easily find the skill and then look across for the bonus number!
The green notification style dots used for proficiency were literally the most-reported point of confusion in all of our feedback and testing. Virtually no one knew what they meant and 9 out of 10 people requested a better visual representation of not only proficiency but half and twice proficiency.
If we see that folks are struggling with the text formatting for skill names or numbers we will indeed make changes to that.
Saving throws: remember the good old days (last week) when the section that explained what you had advantage on for your saving throws had all the words there? Yeah, those were the days.
Now if you have multiple different ones, the text gets cut off by an ellipsis (...), and you have to mouse over it to read it.
Many testers complained about the space the save modifiers were taking up, and that those were elements they needed to see when making saves but that the full information was "already known." So, with that feedback, we made that section more of a "notification." If players wanted to be reminded of the full information they could mouse over or pull in the sidebar.
We'll see if that was the right approach over time and keep an eye on it.
Spells: Before, a nice list with good use of bold font for names, with other details in lighter, smaller font. Nice little colourful icons to visually distinguish different spell schools.
Now: Italics baby. Also do you like Excel spreadsheets? Cause that's what you've got now.
Spells in D&D are italicized. We need to support that formatting standard as WotC uses it. In our testing, we also observed that spell school has very little to do with a player making spellcasting choices, so we de-emphasized it. When's the last time you cast a fireball because it was an evocation spell? If you're an evoker and care, you likely already know its school. Also, it's relatively easy for me to point to make the claim that people do like spreadsheets for the presentation of like/ similar information because it makes it easier to digest.
In fact, font in general. Did this change? Because everything feels a lot less readable - feels much denser and smaller.
Yes, fonts changed in an attempt to utilize the space as I noted above. If we end up needing to make changes for readability, we will do it.
Also the side panel - massively awkward at times. Clicked on a class feature? Great! We won't just use a familiar expandable item to give you the information you wanted where you clicked - instead you have to look all the way up over here at this new window thing that's opened! Isn't that easy to follow?!
We received many more complaints about how players didn't like the way collapsibles moved all the other content around the element they were browsing when clicked than any other thing with the old sheet (except for the green proficiency dots). The sidebar was a way for us to still be able to fit in full description information without the information in the character sheet jumping around.
Actually I know why this pisses me off - it's because it feels like instead of having a modern digital toolset, that's designed for digital use, I'm just flipping back and forth between my character sheet (main panes) and the PHB/DMG/whatever (side pane). The whole advantage of digital tools is you shouldn't have to be flipping back and forth, because in a modern digital toolset, your character sheet should be interactive, not just an index you click on that brings up a second reference document on the side. A digital character sheet should not act like a piece of paper. If I click on a spell because I want more details, it should expand the details right there, not ask me to look up some other reference pane. That's the whole point of digital design - get what you want, where you need it.
I've never been able to touch a piece of paper and have every detail about what I touched slide in magically on the side of it. I know - particularly at this point in what you wrote - that there's some healthy ranting going on (as you state below) - but I have to say that "flipping back and forth" is a bit of a dramatic phrase for what's actually happening on a screen. I click a spell (and for many spells, I hopefully didn't even click because I saw all the major info I needed to make my decision already at a glance in the list) and the sidebar appears, even on the largest screens that would typically fit on a desk, a few inches away.
This has been a rambling rant, but the fundamental question I have is this:
Why are you trying to recreate the pen and paper experience, when you should be designing a modern, interactive web tool?
Why can't we have both? [insert meme here]
In all seriousness, we are trying to walk that line. We might not always succeed, but we are going to be earnest in the attempt, course correct where needed, and relentlessly work towards making this better and better. Sure, we are trying to make a modern, interactive tool, but we are supporting a pen and paper game (not a video game).
I hope you take my comments in the spirit that I wrote them - an attempt to explain our rationale for the design decisions we made and how much feedback and testing played into it - and not as anything personal. You do make some solid and valid points that we will add to our consideration as we parse feedback in the coming weeks.
Thanks!
Thanks BadEye for a well put together response!
I agree with a lot of QQMcRage's points and would love to see the functionality of the new layout in more friendly and modern design. This implementation feels like DnDBeyond has simply taken the paper sheets and embedded hotlinks.
In my respectful submission, might I suggest starting by shrinking the stat lists and using that space to make a better spell list? The implementation in the new version is very awkward, especially hiding the spellbook under the 'cog'.
While this is personal preference, I believe that the 'neo-retro' design is a case of the form tail wagging the usability dog, and allowing a 'modern' theme would be greatly appreciated.
My eye twitches violently whenever I see someone quoting an entire post chain, especially a long one. TWITCH MINE EYES TWITCH~!
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
I am not going to repost BadEye's well written response to QQMcRage's well Rage again. I just wanted to say that the last couple of post pointing to a better "Pen and Paper" with web capabilities and features IS what I want. Not a web page that works like facebook.
I have been playing D&D for almost 20 years and actually always liked the pen and paper designs. They have grown better and the redesign took a lot of what works right and brought it in with link quick references and changing windows. I know "new" players might find this a down grade but "Old" players like me found the original version needlessly cumbersome and the familiarity of this to pen and paper means I immediately understand how to use it and could teach it to someone else. The digital means its more handy than pen and paper. I literally only want Containerized drag and drop inventory that allows sharing between party members, stores, differentiates weather it effects weight (for encumbrance) and auto calculates weight and total value of person/group "treasure" in gold coins. I get that I am golden.
So maybe the true is their are 2 conflicting markets here and one sheet layout isn't going to cut it for ether. I do believe for me this is a massive upgrade and an excellent place to move forward from.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The lack of inflection in text means that a reader of any post adds their own inflection as they "verbalize" it in their head. I write long and repetitive in an effort to be clear and avoid my intent from being skewed or inverted. I am also bad at examples. It is common for people to skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of the point I am actually trying to make. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.
I love the new sheet! Some hard work went into this. Are there any plans to have the ability to add the ‘Sanity’ attribute score as an option for the sheet?
Overall I like the new design, and I welcome the ability to mark a weapon as Pact Weapon or Hex Warrior - although the latter does not seem to work with the Staff of the Adder.
Cosmetic / UI feedback
Listing spells for each level they could be cast at makes a mess of high level spell lists, it would be nice if this could be turned off (with the ability to use higher level slots as before).
While the Actions section breakdown is very useful, several bonus actions and attack options are put in the Others section (War cleric domain ability, and Divine Strike/Smite, for example), while other useful combat modifiers (i.e. Sneak Attack damage) are not shown
The Combat tab (mobile / low width desktop) should also show Speed, as movement is very much part of the round.
Desktop version
In less than 1200px wide windows the design has a lot of fixed empty space on the left, making it awkward to use (I like to keep it open beside other windows on my desktop); while the toolbar with the long rest buttons flow off the screen, even though there's a lot of empty space in the middle. See screenshot here.
Mobile view
I would like to be able to see all the spells at once in the spells tab, instead of having to click through the spell level filters all the time - this is especially annoying with some spells appearing on several levels, and some not.
Functional issues
Exhaustion levels cannot be tracked - this should be a 6 level tracker with cumulative effects instead of a yes/no. (In our campaign, it's not unusual to have 2-3 levels of exhaustion).
Encumbered characters gain 5ft of movement of every type - flying, swimming, climbing speed as well, even if they didn't have it before.
Racial Darkvision stacks with the warlock Devil's Sight invocation - this should not stack.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
--[ Natural 20 - that's how I roll! ]-- We've stopped this OGL madness, but stay vigilant, they tried it once, they can try it again.
Overall I'm really happy with the direction of the new sheet, but I have noticed a couple of issues. Desktop mode seems great and that's what I will be using in general, since I typically use a laptop when we play. Nobody at our table uses a phone, but the phone mode has some nice features that perhaps should be included in the tablet view, as about half our table uses tablets (the other half uses laptops). These include:
Hit points are always visible.
Hit point modification window has a scroll wheel
I always found scrolling the wheel to be much nicer than dealing with a tablet's keyboard for HP management, so perhaps that could be brought over to the tablet view? I was a little surprised that HP wasn't always in the top corner like it is on the phone, there certainly seems to be enough space for it.
In general, I was surprised that the tablet mode looked more like the phone than the desktop in landscape mode. It feels like there's a ton of empty space in general when viewed on a tablet (I'm using the 10.5" iPad Pro for reference, which is a pretty standard tablet size). For example, the Combat page for my Paladin has basically one weapon attack, and thus there's a solid inch and a half of dead space around a tiny window in the middle. I was playing around with mobile device emulation on my desktop, and it does look like you switch to desktop mode when the larger 12" iPad Pro is in landscape mode, can this also apply on 10" tablets as well? I also have an iPad Mini, and the current tablet behaviour seems fine on that one, as the screen is significantly smaller than both Pro models (it basically feels more like a big phone, and so treating it as such seems fine). The current view seems fine for portrait mode, but I don't really use that.
I mentioned this in some earlier feedback, but it would be really great if there was an integrated healing option as part of the short rest. Right now, we typically roll all the dice and heal ourselves using the normal HP window, manually keeping track of how many hit dice we've spent. We then hit the Short Rest button and check off the correct number of hit dice. Having this all done from one window would be really helpful, as there'd be less of a chance of making mistakes such as spending too many hit dice and so on.
One of the complaints I hear most at our table relates to currency management, specifically when we get odd amounts of money after an encounter. Having to manually add things up and enter the totals really slows things down, so having a way to say "I just got 23gp, 37sp and 153cp" and have the sheet add these values for you would be great. This could be a sidebar like you currently have for managing XP, for example.
I'm about to head off to France to play at the D&D in a Castle event (thanks for the sponsorship of that!) and will post more feedback once I've had a chance to actually use the new sheet, but so far I'm very impressed in general.
Overall I like the new design, and I welcome the ability to mark a weapon as Pact Weapon or Hex Warrior - although the latter does not seem to work with the Staff of the Adder.
Cosmetic / UI feedback
Listing spells for each level they could be cast at makes a mess of high level spell lists, it would be nice if this could be turned off (with the ability to use higher level slots as before).
While the Actions section breakdown is very useful, several bonus actions and attack options are put in the Others section (War cleric domain ability, and Divine Strike/Smite, for example), while other useful combat modifiers (i.e. Sneak Attack damage) are not shown
The Combat tab (mobile / low width desktop) should also show Speed, as movement is very much part of the round.
Desktop version
In less than 1200px wide windows the design has a lot of fixed empty space on the left, making it awkward to use (I like to keep it open beside other windows on my desktop); while the toolbar with the long rest buttons flow off the screen, even though there's a lot of empty space in the middle. See screenshot here.
Mobile view
I would like to be able to see all the spells at once in the spells tab, instead of having to click through the spell level filters all the time - this is especially annoying with some spells appearing on several levels, and some not.
Functional issues
Exhaustion levels cannot be tracked - this should be a 6 level tracker with cumulative effects instead of a yes/no. (In our campaign, it's not unusual to have 2-3 levels of exhaustion).
Encumbered characters gain 5ft of movement of every type - flying, swimming, climbing speed as well, even if they didn't have it before.
Racial Darkvision stacks with the warlock Devil's Sight invocation - this should not stack.
For the Spell List, click the gear beside the Spells header to open the sidebar. Click Spell Slots at the top of the sidebar to see all of your spell slots, and below that are all of your currently usable spells in spell level order.
It might be nice to add "Show Unarmed Strike" back as a preference toggle, there doesn't seem to be a way to add that back after you uncheck the "show as attack" option on the attack itself. In general I prefer to hide this, but it might be nice to be able to restore it in the rare occasion it comes up for non-Monk characters.
So I logged on to my character sheet last night for our campaign and the layout for my character sheet was different for last week. Everything is highlighted in red and there's a huge blank side bar that said select to read more. The previous layout I've gotten use to. It had the character's class feats , background , skills, items, etc. all in their own separate boxes. With this new layout, everything is all bunched together and it's constant scrolling to find what you want . Needless to say, I has to use my paper character sheets but only once I got it updated. It was a complete pain, so I'm hoping there's a way to revert back to the previous layout because I rather use my three sheets of paper than constant scrolling. Please help!
It might be nice to add "Show Unarmed Strike" back as a preference toggle, there doesn't seem to be a way to add that back after you uncheck the "show as attack" option on the attack itself. In general I prefer to hide this, but it might be nice to be able to restore it in the rare occasion it comes up for non-Monk characters.
Click on the Actions tab, scroll down and click on Unarmed Strike, select Customize and tick Display As Attack.
Overall I like the new design, and I welcome the ability to mark a weapon as Pact Weapon or Hex Warrior - although the latter does not seem to work with the Staff of the Adder.
Cosmetic / UI feedback
Listing spells for each level they could be cast at makes a mess of high level spell lists, it would be nice if this could be turned off (with the ability to use higher level slots as before).
While the Actions section breakdown is very useful, several bonus actions and attack options are put in the Others section (War cleric domain ability, and Divine Strike/Smite, for example), while other useful combat modifiers (i.e. Sneak Attack damage) are not shown
The Combat tab (mobile / low width desktop) should also show Speed, as movement is very much part of the round.
Desktop version
In less than 1200px wide windows the design has a lot of fixed empty space on the left, making it awkward to use (I like to keep it open beside other windows on my desktop); while the toolbar with the long rest buttons flow off the screen, even though there's a lot of empty space in the middle. See screenshot here.
Mobile view
I would like to be able to see all the spells at once in the spells tab, instead of having to click through the spell level filters all the time - this is especially annoying with some spells appearing on several levels, and some not.
Functional issues
Exhaustion levels cannot be tracked - this should be a 6 level tracker with cumulative effects instead of a yes/no. (In our campaign, it's not unusual to have 2-3 levels of exhaustion).
Encumbered characters gain 5ft of movement of every type - flying, swimming, climbing speed as well, even if they didn't have it before.
Racial Darkvision stacks with the warlock Devil's Sight invocation - this should not stack.
For the Spell List, click the gear beside the Spells header to open the sidebar. Click Spell Slots at the top of the sidebar to see all of your spell slots, and below that are all of your currently usable spells in spell level order.
While I can see my spellbook there, I cannot use it to cast the spells, or read the descriptions. Instead of having one overview that I have to click to reveal, and a separate list where I have to click several times to get to the actual spell, I would prefer a single list (like on the desktop view) where each spell appears only once (unlike in the desktop view, where, for example, Chronatic Orb appears in every spell level list available - imagine looking at your 7th level spells if you have at least 3-4 spells from each level that can be cast on higher levels: you would look at a list of 18-24 spells just on the 7th level slot, most of them also appearing in the 6th, etc...)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
--[ Natural 20 - that's how I roll! ]-- We've stopped this OGL madness, but stay vigilant, they tried it once, they can try it again.
It might be nice to add "Show Unarmed Strike" back as a preference toggle, there doesn't seem to be a way to add that back after you uncheck the "show as attack" option on the attack itself. In general I prefer to hide this, but it might be nice to be able to restore it in the rare occasion it comes up for non-Monk characters.
Click on the Actions tab, scroll down and click on Unarmed Strike, select Customize and tick Display As Attack.
Beat me to it! I just figured it out myself. That ones a bit sneaky!
It might be nice to add "Show Unarmed Strike" back as a preference toggle, there doesn't seem to be a way to add that back after you uncheck the "show as attack" option on the attack itself. In general I prefer to hide this, but it might be nice to be able to restore it in the rare occasion it comes up for non-Monk characters.
Click on the Actions tab, scroll down and click on Unarmed Strike, select Customize and tick Display As Attack.
Ahh I figured it was hidden away somewhere, thanks!
- mostly OK, but actions and combat should be 1 tab
- get rid of the long descriptions in the actions tab, just tell me what it does (e.g. I am playing a bloodhunter atm: hybrid transformation: + 1 AC, +1 to damage, adv on strength checks and saves etc. plus the checkboxes so I see at once how often I have used it already) If I need the longer description I can use the features&traits tab, which is right under it.
- AC should be visible all the time not only under the combat tab so I can stay on the main Tab. Sometimes AC changes because of spells or other effects so that info should be right there.
- The stats are way to prominent at the top. Would be more than enough to put them on the left side like they are on the pdf export.
Mobile:
I used my Ipad to play at the table but the new sheet for that is horrible to use. So much wasted space, lots of clicking on the menu button.
actions, combat, spells are all in different submenues and to change hp I have to go back again. I just want the webview on mobile, too.
even on my asus mini pc it uses the mobile version of the sheet which is even worse. I relly hoped I could circumvent the bad mobile sheet and switch to my mini PC but no luck there.
and again under actions you get lots of text describing everything, I just need to know what it does and if I need more info I couls either use the sidebar or go to traits.
It is nice to have the description but after using it for some time you only need the mechanical effects of a certain feature, condensed to the most important changes like plus to AC or stuff like that.
maybe you could put actions, combat and features and traits on 1 page with a bit of scrolling down, that would eliminate a lot of problems.
I actually like the spell tab a lot, I think that one was implemented quite well.
Unfortunately i do not like the new one at all. I use dndbeyond mainly on mobile (android) via chrome browser. Sliding left and right was simple and efficient. Now i have to dig through some popup menus. For me its a waste of time
Please if possible make option to switch to old one
I want to chime in and say I personally prefer the pop up menus to the sliding. It's easier for me to get where I'm going, before I may slide to the right 5 times before getting to the page I want, now it's just two clicks.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
How do you get a one-armed goblin out of a tree?
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A few things that I noticed.
Monk unarmored defence doesn't show up when you click on defences for your character, I feel that it should be mentioned in there as a reminder to players who receive a bonus to AC due to that
I understand that the monk skills in general are still working on a minor revamp of the character sheet so I can't wait for the easier tracking of ki points.
Another thing that I noticed on my monk is, unarmed attack states that it is 1 + STR, but with monk it has an actual table that the players go off of to indicate unarmed damage and monk weapon damage.
Nykkan Fharngnarthnost: Dragonborn Monk (4)...Coliseum of Conquest (3) {1W-6L} [Brewer]
Hans Stormsong: Human Monk (1)...Colosseum of Conquest (3) {0W-1L}
Thanks BadEye for a well put together response!
I agree with a lot of QQMcRage's points and would love to see the functionality of the new layout in more friendly and modern design. This implementation feels like DnDBeyond has simply taken the paper sheets and embedded hotlinks.
In my respectful submission, might I suggest starting by shrinking the stat lists and using that space to make a better spell list? The implementation in the new version is very awkward, especially hiding the spellbook under the 'cog'.
While this is personal preference, I believe that the 'neo-retro' design is a case of the form tail wagging the usability dog, and allowing a 'modern' theme would be greatly appreciated.
Strange, my Monk displays properly (click on AC and unarmored defense is listed, and my unarmed strike is the 1d4 instead of 1. Do you have any homebrew stuff on that character by chance? Way earlier in this thread someone had an issue of things not showing up and the fix was to remove all homebrew content then readd it.
In Chrome on my phone (Nexus 5X) the header bar shows the character tidbits, hit points display and inspiration button.
In Chrome on my iPad Mini, the header bar shows the character tidbits section, the short rest button, the long rest button and the character builder button. This means that hit points are not easily accessible while on the combat screen, which is very inconvenient as a player needs to swap between the combat screen and abilities, saves, etc. screen frequently during combat.
Please change the display on iPad Mini to show hit points instead of the character builder and long rest buttons, which are needed much less frequently and are already easily accessed from the tidbits drop-down menu.
My eye twitches violently whenever I see someone quoting an entire post chain, especially a long one. TWITCH MINE EYES TWITCH~!
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
― Oscar Wilde.
I am not going to repost BadEye's well written response to QQMcRage's well Rage again. I just wanted to say that the last couple of post pointing to a better "Pen and Paper" with web capabilities and features IS what I want. Not a web page that works like facebook.
I have been playing D&D for almost 20 years and actually always liked the pen and paper designs. They have grown better and the redesign took a lot of what works right and brought it in with link quick references and changing windows. I know "new" players might find this a down grade but "Old" players like me found the original version needlessly cumbersome and the familiarity of this to pen and paper means I immediately understand how to use it and could teach it to someone else. The digital means its more handy than pen and paper. I literally only want Containerized drag and drop inventory that allows sharing between party members, stores, differentiates weather it effects weight (for encumbrance) and auto calculates weight and total value of person/group "treasure" in gold coins. I get that I am golden.
So maybe the true is their are 2 conflicting markets here and one sheet layout isn't going to cut it for ether. I do believe for me this is a massive upgrade and an excellent place to move forward from.
The lack of inflection in text means that a reader of any post adds their own inflection as they "verbalize" it in their head. I write long and repetitive in an effort to be clear and avoid my intent from being skewed or inverted. I am also bad at examples. It is common for people to skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of the point I am actually trying to make. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.
I love the new sheet! Some hard work went into this. Are there any plans to have the ability to add the ‘Sanity’ attribute score as an option for the sheet?
Overall I like the new design, and I welcome the ability to mark a weapon as Pact Weapon or Hex Warrior - although the latter does not seem to work with the Staff of the Adder.
Cosmetic / UI feedback
Desktop version
Mobile view
Functional issues
--[ Natural 20 - that's how I roll! ]--
We've stopped this OGL madness, but stay vigilant, they tried it once, they can try it again.
Overall I'm really happy with the direction of the new sheet, but I have noticed a couple of issues. Desktop mode seems great and that's what I will be using in general, since I typically use a laptop when we play. Nobody at our table uses a phone, but the phone mode has some nice features that perhaps should be included in the tablet view, as about half our table uses tablets (the other half uses laptops). These include:
I always found scrolling the wheel to be much nicer than dealing with a tablet's keyboard for HP management, so perhaps that could be brought over to the tablet view? I was a little surprised that HP wasn't always in the top corner like it is on the phone, there certainly seems to be enough space for it.
In general, I was surprised that the tablet mode looked more like the phone than the desktop in landscape mode. It feels like there's a ton of empty space in general when viewed on a tablet (I'm using the 10.5" iPad Pro for reference, which is a pretty standard tablet size). For example, the Combat page for my Paladin has basically one weapon attack, and thus there's a solid inch and a half of dead space around a tiny window in the middle. I was playing around with mobile device emulation on my desktop, and it does look like you switch to desktop mode when the larger 12" iPad Pro is in landscape mode, can this also apply on 10" tablets as well? I also have an iPad Mini, and the current tablet behaviour seems fine on that one, as the screen is significantly smaller than both Pro models (it basically feels more like a big phone, and so treating it as such seems fine). The current view seems fine for portrait mode, but I don't really use that.
I mentioned this in some earlier feedback, but it would be really great if there was an integrated healing option as part of the short rest. Right now, we typically roll all the dice and heal ourselves using the normal HP window, manually keeping track of how many hit dice we've spent. We then hit the Short Rest button and check off the correct number of hit dice. Having this all done from one window would be really helpful, as there'd be less of a chance of making mistakes such as spending too many hit dice and so on.
One of the complaints I hear most at our table relates to currency management, specifically when we get odd amounts of money after an encounter. Having to manually add things up and enter the totals really slows things down, so having a way to say "I just got 23gp, 37sp and 153cp" and have the sheet add these values for you would be great. This could be a sidebar like you currently have for managing XP, for example.
I'm about to head off to France to play at the D&D in a Castle event (thanks for the sponsorship of that!) and will post more feedback once I've had a chance to actually use the new sheet, but so far I'm very impressed in general.
For the Spell List, click the gear beside the Spells header to open the sidebar. Click Spell Slots at the top of the sidebar to see all of your spell slots, and below that are all of your currently usable spells in spell level order.
It might be nice to add "Show Unarmed Strike" back as a preference toggle, there doesn't seem to be a way to add that back after you uncheck the "show as attack" option on the attack itself. In general I prefer to hide this, but it might be nice to be able to restore it in the rare occasion it comes up for non-Monk characters.
So I logged on to my character sheet last night for our campaign and the layout for my character sheet was different for last week. Everything is highlighted in red and there's a huge blank side bar that said select to read more. The previous layout I've gotten use to. It had the character's class feats , background , skills, items, etc. all in their own separate boxes. With this new layout, everything is all bunched together and it's constant scrolling to find what you want . Needless to say, I has to use my paper character sheets but only once I got it updated. It was a complete pain, so I'm hoping there's a way to revert back to the previous layout because I rather use my three sheets of paper than constant scrolling. Please help!
Click on the Actions tab, scroll down and click on Unarmed Strike, select Customize and tick Display As Attack.
While I can see my spellbook there, I cannot use it to cast the spells, or read the descriptions. Instead of having one overview that I have to click to reveal, and a separate list where I have to click several times to get to the actual spell, I would prefer a single list (like on the desktop view) where each spell appears only once (unlike in the desktop view, where, for example, Chronatic Orb appears in every spell level list available - imagine looking at your 7th level spells if you have at least 3-4 spells from each level that can be cast on higher levels: you would look at a list of 18-24 spells just on the 7th level slot, most of them also appearing in the 6th, etc...)
--[ Natural 20 - that's how I roll! ]--
We've stopped this OGL madness, but stay vigilant, they tried it once, they can try it again.
Beat me to it! I just figured it out myself. That ones a bit sneaky!
Ahh I figured it was hidden away somewhere, thanks!
Some more things.
PC:
- mostly OK, but actions and combat should be 1 tab
- get rid of the long descriptions in the actions tab, just tell me what it does (e.g. I am playing a bloodhunter atm: hybrid transformation: + 1 AC, +1 to damage, adv on strength checks and saves etc. plus the checkboxes so I see at once how often I have used it already) If I need the longer description I can use the features&traits tab, which is right under it.
- AC should be visible all the time not only under the combat tab so I can stay on the main Tab. Sometimes AC changes because of spells or other effects so that info should be right there.
- The stats are way to prominent at the top. Would be more than enough to put them on the left side like they are on the pdf export.
Mobile:
I used my Ipad to play at the table but the new sheet for that is horrible to use. So much wasted space, lots of clicking on the menu button.
actions, combat, spells are all in different submenues and to change hp I have to go back again. I just want the webview on mobile, too.
even on my asus mini pc it uses the mobile version of the sheet which is even worse. I relly hoped I could circumvent the bad mobile sheet and switch to my mini PC but no luck there.
and again under actions you get lots of text describing everything, I just need to know what it does and if I need more info I couls either use the sidebar or go to traits.
It is nice to have the description but after using it for some time you only need the mechanical effects of a certain feature, condensed to the most important changes like plus to AC or stuff like that.
maybe you could put actions, combat and features and traits on 1 page with a bit of scrolling down, that would eliminate a lot of problems.
I actually like the spell tab a lot, I think that one was implemented quite well.
Unfortunately i do not like the new one at all. I use dndbeyond mainly on mobile (android) via chrome browser. Sliding left and right was simple and efficient. Now i have to dig through some popup menus. For me its a waste of time
Please if possible make option to switch to old one
I want to chime in and say I personally prefer the pop up menus to the sliding. It's easier for me to get where I'm going, before I may slide to the right 5 times before getting to the page I want, now it's just two clicks.
How do you get a one-armed goblin out of a tree?
Wave!