The product feels unfinished to me. I feel like these things should have been available out the gate. Heck, a simple ePub from Barnes and Noble or a Kindle eBook offers these features.
I fully agree. : ) I too, also pine for these features. It's all a continuous work-in-progress; Good things are on the way.
I would say that the experience I've had on a laptop is far better than on my tablet or phone. There is just far too much scrolling on those devices. If all of the classes were separated in a more manageable format, that would be awesome. If there was a side pull out menu that had the table of contents, or something, that also would be awesome; just some kind of improved navigation. I know that this would break it down further than the chapters of the print versions, but I think it would add so much to the experience.
There is a lot that I like though:) and i also realize that it's early, and hopefully there will be plenty of fixes to the broken links etc. So, keep it up! Thanks!
Here's where I'm at. I'm a person who feels, very strongly, that people who own the physical books should get a discount on DnD Beyond content that they own physically. I think it would be easy enough for WotC and Curse to work out. I think it's a pretty fundamental thing that is absolutely not too much to ask. And yes, I've read all the arguments about how they are two different companies, and I understand that. That doesn't mean that what I'm asking for here is impossible, because it's not, and other companies do similar things all the time. Brand synergy and all that.
That said, I've purchased things on here that I already own and I have no regrets. Would it have been nice to get a discount for things I already owned? Absolutely. But the usefulness of DnD Beyond at my table makes me feel 100% like what I got here was worth it. Ultimately, the folks who are taking a hard-line on this--that they are absolutely unwilling to pay for the content twice--don't seem to be folks who find what DnD Beyond offers particularly useful in the first place. And that's fine! I do think it'd be nice for Curse/WotC to throw those folks a bone maybe, but ultimately I'm not sure that those folks would really be getting that much out of this toolset even if they got a discount or got the digital content for free. And no one is forcing them to use Beyond. WotC isn't going to stop printing paper books anytime soon, and you'll keep being able to find ways to get that content in PDF format.* If they fail to see how Beyond is different and offers more than a searchable PDF, I'm not sure there's any argument that's going to sway them.
* I really don't understand why WotC doesn't offer PDFs or ebooks as a separate type of content that you can purchase or that maybe come with physical books. It seems to work really well for Paizo, and I don't think offering PDFs would really be competing with Beyond in any meaningful way. But I could be wrong.
Basically what you're asking is akin to when you buy a regular edition book that they send you a special edition for free. The content might be the same, but they are not the same product.
Also, there is no way to identify that you legitimately own the physical books. It could be possible if they put a code into and shrink wrap future books, but for books already sold it is impossible. Again, though, this would require them to raise prices as there are two companies that require compensation if that happened.
I think the best way for them to do this would be for D&D Beyond to set up a store for physical copies that come with the beyond content as well. They'd likely be sold above the MSRP of $50 though. But for people like you who already own the content, this is just not possible.
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How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat On - Mod Hat Off
I really don't understand why WotC doesn't offer PDFs or ebooks as a separate type of content that you can purchase or that maybe come with physical books.
WotC's fullest explanation provided for not offering PDFs of current-edition print releases (because they do offer PDFs, just of prior edition products and products that don't have print releases) is that it is part of a deal made with brick & mortar stores (a small piece of the puzzle that also makes it so that stores that perform certain activities such as hosting official events for WotC games get to enjoy early-release dates).
As for not selling PDFs with the physical books, that's because WotC does not own and operate their own webstore, so there is no way for them to include a PDF without charging more or trimming someone's profits from the sale. Other companies that do offer PDF "free" with purchase of physical books are actually relying on the illusion created by their selling of the book at the same price a brick & mortar store would to convince the buyer that a free thing was included even though the reality is that the company was paid for it (and likely in full, given the difference between what a customer is expected to pay - the MSRP - and what a distributor is expected to pay per copy - which is probably around 1/3 or 1/4 of MSRP so that they profit on selling to a seller, and that seller profits by selling at no higher than the MSRP).
Ah, that they have a deal with game stores makes sense. And good point about past editions being available in PDF.
I have no interest in starting the billionth argument about how they should find a way to bundle physical and digital content. I think it's fair and not the seemingly insurmountable and/or patently absurd idea that some of y'all make it out to be. But that was not the point of my post. My point was that people who find the tools provided by Beyond are going to be willing to pay for it, because it's an added value and it makes their tables run more smoothly, etc. The people who argue that they absolutely will not pay for Beyond are most likely people who do not find any particular value in the toolset that Beyond offers.
Ultimately I'm just sick of the endless back-and-forth that's been going on since we'll before Beyond launched. There is certainly room for criticism but at the end of the day Beyond isn't for everyone and that's fine.
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DM: The Cult of the Crystal Spider (Currently playing Storm King's Thunder) Player: The Knuckles of Arth - Lemire (Tiefling Rogue 5/Fighter 1)
Ah, that they have a deal with game stores makes sense. And good point about past editions being available in PDF.
I have no interest in starting the billionth argument about how they should find a way to bundle physical and digital content. I think it's fair and not the seemingly insurmountable and/or patently absurd idea that some of y'all make it out to be. But that was not the point of my post. My point was that people who find the tools provided by Beyond are going to be willing to pay for it, because it's an added value and it makes their tables run more smoothly, etc. The people who argue that they absolutely will not pay for Beyond are most likely people who do not find any particular value in the toolset that Beyond offers.
Ultimately I'm just sick of the endless back-and-forth that's been going on since we'll before Beyond launched. There is certainly room for criticism but at the end of the day Beyond isn't for everyone and that's fine.
I agree. At his point the argument has been beaten into the ground. It really comes down to if you find it useful use it and if you don't, well then don't. Nothing is for everyone.
For me it is great. Being able to read though adventures and books on my phone is amazing. Now when I have some time to kill I read though the PHB, the DMG, or now the The Tomb of Annihilation (the first adventure I have bought on DDB). I can also have my phone read me the books while I am driving. Also, everyone at the table being able to look up rules in seconds has nearly eliminated down time for rules clarifications. My players can also level up their characters in the middle of a play session in about 5 minute. Before we always had to do it between play sessions because it took so much time. DDB may not be perfect yet but for me it is already worth every penny and I can't wait to see what it is like a year from now.
I think WotC operates at a scale that would make this impractical, but not everyone only includes a PDF if you buy the physical book from them: https://www.evilhat.com/home/pdf-guarantee/
I am curious, to all the people who believe that a discount should be offered to everyone who owns the physical books, even though DDB is not owned by WotC, do you think that Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds should have to give you all the same discount?
If WotC gave a 50% digital discount, should you be able to use that discount on all three of the online sites that currently offer digital versions of the books, and any other site that offers them in the future?!
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You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
I am curious, to all the people who believe that a discount should be offered to everyone who owns the physical books, even though DDB is not owned by WotC, do you think that Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds should have to give you all the same discount?
No. DDB and WotC clearly have a very different working relationship than WotC and those other platforms. DDB is a platform that, while operated by Curse, is officially supported by WotC in a way that Roll20 and FG are not. I think this is where the "but Curse and Wizards are totally separate entities!" line of argument falls apart--Curse was clearly contracted by WotC to create DDB. Roll20 and FG are entirely independent entities. I think that it would be cool if in the future those platforms offered some kind of integration with DDB where a DDB membership/subscription could replace the need to purchase 5e content on those platforms, but I have no idea what the logistics of that could look like.
If WotC gave a 50% digital discount, should you be able to use that discount on all three of the online sites that currently offer digital versions of the books, and any other site that offers them in the future?!
Again, no, for the same reasons above.
I also don't think any such discount on DDB content for owners of the physical books would need to be as high as 50%. Just some sort of olive branch being offered to the owners of physical books would go a long, long way.
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DM: The Cult of the Crystal Spider (Currently playing Storm King's Thunder) Player: The Knuckles of Arth - Lemire (Tiefling Rogue 5/Fighter 1)
No. DDB and WotC clearly have a very different working relationship than WotC and those other platforms. DDB is a platform that, while operated by Curse, is officially supported by WotC in a way that Roll20 and FG are not. I think this is where the "but Curse and Wizards are totally separate entities!" line of argument falls apart--Curse was clearly contracted by WotC to create DDB. Roll20 and FG are entirely independent entities. I think that it would be cool if in the future those platforms offered some kind of integration with DDB where a DDB membership/subscription could replace the need to purchase 5e content on those platforms, but I have no idea what the logistics of that could look like.
I am not sure what makes you believe that DDB is "supported by WotC" any more than Roll20 and FG. I ave read and watched every interview I am aware of and never got that impression. I know Curse contacted WotC about making the product and not the other way around. I am fairly certain that Curse is not payed by WotC and in fact have to pay WotC just. What makes you think DDB has any different deal than the others services?
I am not sure what makes you believe that DDB is "supported by WotC" any more than Roll20 and FG. I ave read and watched every interview I am aware of and never got that impression. I know Curse contacted WotC about making the product and not the other way around. I am fairly certain that Curse is not payed by WotC and in fact have to pay WotC just. What makes you think DDB has any different deal than the others services?
DDB has been said to be the "official" 5E tool. Even if Curse is doing all the work and paying all the bills (and, AFAIK, they are), that endorsement is a big deal.
No. DDB and WotC clearly have a very different working relationship than WotC and those other platforms. DDB is a platform that, while operated by Curse, is officially supported by WotC in a way that Roll20 and FG are not. I think this is where the "but Curse and Wizards are totally separate entities!" line of argument falls apart--Curse was clearly contracted by WotC to create DDB. Roll20 and FG are entirely independent entities. I think that it would be cool if in the future those platforms offered some kind of integration with DDB where a DDB membership/subscription could replace the need to purchase 5e content on those platforms, but I have no idea what the logistics of that could look like.
I am not sure what makes you believe that DDB is "supported by WotC" any more than Roll20 and FG. I ave read and watched every interview I am aware of and never got that impression. I know Curse contacted WotC about making the product and not the other way around. I am fairly certain that Curse is not payed by WotC and in fact have to pay WotC just. What makes you think DDB has any different deal than the others services?
So I'm not sure how many remember, but near when 5e first came out, there was talk of a digital tool then. In the end, something happened (I got the idea that WotC was not happy with the production) and we never got to see that initial tool. But WotC has been asked about publishing content digitally in the past (through kindle, Google play, etc), and said if they wanted to launch the books digitally, they would do it themselves, in their own way. Curse may have contacted WotC, but they were filling a void that WotC was already searching to fill. It's also clear through the video interviews that WotC puts a lot more into DDB than FG or R20. And WotC's promotion of the digital tool highly exceeds the marketing they have done for FG or R20. They have made very clear that this is their tool to use, and in partnering with Curse, they have people with the preferred skill set to make changes while they can solely monitor content and request changes.
I am curious, to all the people who believe that a discount should be offered to everyone who owns the physical books, even though DDB is not owned by WotC, do you think that Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds should have to give you all the same discount?
No. DDB and WotC clearly have a very different working relationship than WotC and those other platforms. DDB is a platform that, while operated by Curse, is officially supported by WotC in a way that Roll20 and FG are not. I think this is where the "but Curse and Wizards are totally separate entities!" line of argument falls apart--Curse was clearly contracted by WotC to create DDB. Roll20 and FG are entirely independent entities. I think that it would be cool if in the future those platforms offered some kind of integration with DDB where a DDB membership/subscription could replace the need to purchase 5e content on those platforms, but I have no idea what the logistics of that could look like.
If WotC gave a 50% digital discount, should you be able to use that discount on all three of the online sites that currently offer digital versions of the books, and any other site that offers them in the future?!
Again, no, for the same reasons above.
I also don't think any such discount on DDB content for owners of the physical books would need to be as high as 50%. Just some sort of olive branch being offered to the owners of physical books would go a long, long way.
Regardless of how their "working relationship" appears, unless you have evidence to the contrary, as far as we all know, Curse has negotiated a license just like Roll20 and FG have.
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You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
First I wanted to say, I understand the difference between licensing content and buying content. I also get that DDB is part of a business and needs to make money. My big issue isn't really paying for things twice, but that if I do pay for it a second time, I should at least own it twice. Instead, buying content on DDB is just paying for a license to access the content as long as the service is around.
I asked support about whether you're paying for rights to a digital copy or a license to access digital copy through DDB only. It was the latter. If I don't own the digital product, I don't feel right paying that much for it when I already own the rights to a physical copy. I had been thinking about buying content digitally only with DDB, but if I don't own it. Why should I buy it a second time?
First I wanted to say, I understand the difference between licensing content and buying content. I also get that DDB is part of a business and needs to make money. My big issue isn't really paying for things twice, but that if I do pay for it a second time, I should at least own it twice. Instead, buying content on DDB is just paying for a license to access the content as long as the service is around.
I asked support about whether you're paying for rights to a digital copy or a license to access digital copy through DDB only. It was the latter. If I don't own the digital product, I don't feel right paying that much for it when I already own the rights to a physical copy. I had been thinking about buying content digitally only with DDB, but if I don't own it. Why should I buy it a second time?
Do you buy music online? Because you are not paying to own the mp3 file, but for a license to listen to it.
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You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
First I wanted to say, I understand the difference between licensing content and buying content. I also get that DDB is part of a business and needs to make money. My big issue isn't really paying for things twice, but that if I do pay for it a second time, I should at least own it twice. Instead, buying content on DDB is just paying for a license to access the content as long as the service is around.
I asked support about whether you're paying for rights to a digital copy or a license to access digital copy through DDB only. It was the latter. If I don't own the digital product, I don't feel right paying that much for it when I already own the rights to a physical copy. I had been thinking about buying content digitally only with DDB, but if I don't own it. Why should I buy it a second time?
Do you buy music online? Because you are not paying to own the mp3 file, but for a license to listen to it.
If I buy music, I buy drm free files. Which I download and listen to at my own pleasure on whatever or however I want. I can back it up to whatever service I choose, etc. Technically, you are correct in that I am licensing it and don't have rights that come with owning, such as reselling. But the difference is that I have full control over that file. No third party can remove my access to that file by stopping their service.
If you mean a streaming service, then no, I am not buying music. I am paying to stream it. Even if I add it to "my library". If that service goes down, I lose that content, but I never paid to own it, just to listen to it. This is exactly what DDB is. They say buy, but they mean stream in functional equivalence speak.
First I wanted to say, I understand the difference between licensing content and buying content. I also get that DDB is part of a business and needs to make money. My big issue isn't really paying for things twice, but that if I do pay for it a second time, I should at least own it twice. Instead, buying content on DDB is just paying for a license to access the content as long as the service is around.
I asked support about whether you're paying for rights to a digital copy or a license to access digital copy through DDB only. It was the latter. If I don't own the digital product, I don't feel right paying that much for it when I already own the rights to a physical copy. I had been thinking about buying content digitally only with DDB, but if I don't own it. Why should I buy it a second time?
Do you buy music online? Because you are not paying to own the mp3 file, but for a license to listen to it.
If I buy music, I buy drm free files. Which I download and listen to at my own pleasure on whatever or however I want. I can back it up to whatever service I choose, etc. Technically, you are correct in that I am licensing it and don't have rights that come with owning, such as reselling. But the difference is that I have full control over that file. No third party can remove my access to that file by stopping their service.
If you mean a streaming service, then no, I am not buying music. I am paying to stream it. Even if I add it to "my library". If that service goes down, I lose that content, but I never paid to own it, just to listen to it. This is exactly what DDB is. They say buy, but they mean stream in functional equivalence speak.
I'm forced to half agree with this, and half disagree down the road. There will be offline availability in the future, which will take care of this argument for the most part. But how much access they have to restricting that offline content will be an important factor to that discussion.
Still, I'm ultimately okay with the 'streaming of DDB because of its convenience and accessibility. It has already made itself invaluable to me and my group, some of whom are new players and have hardly cracked open a PHB. This has given them unrestricted access to something the enjoy immensely, but would likely never pay for themselves. It also makes it less daunting when they don't continuously have to ask for access to my PHB; they can just go look for themselves here.
This isn't an absolute, "this service (note that I do not say product) is good" or "this service is bad." It's case by case. In my case, it's very good. In other's, maybe not so much. But a service it is and not a product, until offline availability is a thing. Which will be after the app. Can't wait.
No. DDB and WotC clearly have a very different working relationship than WotC and those other platforms. DDB is a platform that, while operated by Curse, is officially supported by WotC in a way that Roll20 and FG are not. I think this is where the "but Curse and Wizards are totally separate entities!" line of argument falls apart--Curse was clearly contracted by WotC to create DDB. Roll20 and FG are entirely independent entities. I think that it would be cool if in the future those platforms offered some kind of integration with DDB where a DDB membership/subscription could replace the need to purchase 5e content on those platforms, but I have no idea what the logistics of that could look like.
I am not sure what makes you believe that DDB is "supported by WotC" any more than Roll20 and FG. I ave read and watched every interview I am aware of and never got that impression. I know Curse contacted WotC about making the product and not the other way around. I am fairly certain that Curse is not payed by WotC and in fact have to pay WotC just. What makes you think DDB has any different deal than the others services?
So you are saying that you think there is something significant in the difference between "an official digital toolset for Dungeons & Dragons fifth edition" and the language that Fantasy Grounds uses of "first officially licensed virtual table top for D&D fifth edition"?
Because I don't think there is, and I think the use of "an" rather than "the" points in the other direction - to D&D Beyond not being a special case.
The word "official" in this case just means it's not un-official, such as all the fan-made options that are out there using the SRD rather than a specific license agreement.
Wizards has advertised DDB and supported it via social media, interviews, podcasts, etc in ways that they never have with FG or roll20. The relationship between WotC and DDB is clearly qualitatively different than those other platforms.
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DM: The Cult of the Crystal Spider (Currently playing Storm King's Thunder) Player: The Knuckles of Arth - Lemire (Tiefling Rogue 5/Fighter 1)
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Here's where I'm at. I'm a person who feels, very strongly, that people who own the physical books should get a discount on DnD Beyond content that they own physically. I think it would be easy enough for WotC and Curse to work out. I think it's a pretty fundamental thing that is absolutely not too much to ask. And yes, I've read all the arguments about how they are two different companies, and I understand that. That doesn't mean that what I'm asking for here is impossible, because it's not, and other companies do similar things all the time. Brand synergy and all that.
That said, I've purchased things on here that I already own and I have no regrets. Would it have been nice to get a discount for things I already owned? Absolutely. But the usefulness of DnD Beyond at my table makes me feel 100% like what I got here was worth it. Ultimately, the folks who are taking a hard-line on this--that they are absolutely unwilling to pay for the content twice--don't seem to be folks who find what DnD Beyond offers particularly useful in the first place. And that's fine! I do think it'd be nice for Curse/WotC to throw those folks a bone maybe, but ultimately I'm not sure that those folks would really be getting that much out of this toolset even if they got a discount or got the digital content for free. And no one is forcing them to use Beyond. WotC isn't going to stop printing paper books anytime soon, and you'll keep being able to find ways to get that content in PDF format.* If they fail to see how Beyond is different and offers more than a searchable PDF, I'm not sure there's any argument that's going to sway them.
* I really don't understand why WotC doesn't offer PDFs or ebooks as a separate type of content that you can purchase or that maybe come with physical books. It seems to work really well for Paizo, and I don't think offering PDFs would really be competing with Beyond in any meaningful way. But I could be wrong.
DM: The Cult of the Crystal Spider (Currently playing Storm King's Thunder)
Player: The Knuckles of Arth - Lemire (Tiefling Rogue 5/Fighter 1)
Basically what you're asking is akin to when you buy a regular edition book that they send you a special edition for free. The content might be the same, but they are not the same product.
Also, there is no way to identify that you legitimately own the physical books. It could be possible if they put a code into and shrink wrap future books, but for books already sold it is impossible. Again, though, this would require them to raise prices as there are two companies that require compensation if that happened.
I think the best way for them to do this would be for D&D Beyond to set up a store for physical copies that come with the beyond content as well. They'd likely be sold above the MSRP of $50 though. But for people like you who already own the content, this is just not possible.
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WotC's fullest explanation provided for not offering PDFs of current-edition print releases (because they do offer PDFs, just of prior edition products and products that don't have print releases) is that it is part of a deal made with brick & mortar stores (a small piece of the puzzle that also makes it so that stores that perform certain activities such as hosting official events for WotC games get to enjoy early-release dates).
As for not selling PDFs with the physical books, that's because WotC does not own and operate their own webstore, so there is no way for them to include a PDF without charging more or trimming someone's profits from the sale. Other companies that do offer PDF "free" with purchase of physical books are actually relying on the illusion created by their selling of the book at the same price a brick & mortar store would to convince the buyer that a free thing was included even though the reality is that the company was paid for it (and likely in full, given the difference between what a customer is expected to pay - the MSRP - and what a distributor is expected to pay per copy - which is probably around 1/3 or 1/4 of MSRP so that they profit on selling to a seller, and that seller profits by selling at no higher than the MSRP).
Ah, that they have a deal with game stores makes sense. And good point about past editions being available in PDF.
I have no interest in starting the billionth argument about how they should find a way to bundle physical and digital content. I think it's fair and not the seemingly insurmountable and/or patently absurd idea that some of y'all make it out to be. But that was not the point of my post. My point was that people who find the tools provided by Beyond are going to be willing to pay for it, because it's an added value and it makes their tables run more smoothly, etc. The people who argue that they absolutely will not pay for Beyond are most likely people who do not find any particular value in the toolset that Beyond offers.
Ultimately I'm just sick of the endless back-and-forth that's been going on since we'll before Beyond launched. There is certainly room for criticism but at the end of the day Beyond isn't for everyone and that's fine.
DM: The Cult of the Crystal Spider (Currently playing Storm King's Thunder)
Player: The Knuckles of Arth - Lemire (Tiefling Rogue 5/Fighter 1)
I think WotC operates at a scale that would make this impractical, but not everyone only includes a PDF if you buy the physical book from them: https://www.evilhat.com/home/pdf-guarantee/
I am curious, to all the people who believe that a discount should be offered to everyone who owns the physical books, even though DDB is not owned by WotC, do you think that Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds should have to give you all the same discount?
If WotC gave a 50% digital discount, should you be able to use that discount on all three of the online sites that currently offer digital versions of the books, and any other site that offers them in the future?!
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
No. DDB and WotC clearly have a very different working relationship than WotC and those other platforms. DDB is a platform that, while operated by Curse, is officially supported by WotC in a way that Roll20 and FG are not. I think this is where the "but Curse and Wizards are totally separate entities!" line of argument falls apart--Curse was clearly contracted by WotC to create DDB. Roll20 and FG are entirely independent entities. I think that it would be cool if in the future those platforms offered some kind of integration with DDB where a DDB membership/subscription could replace the need to purchase 5e content on those platforms, but I have no idea what the logistics of that could look like.
Again, no, for the same reasons above.
I also don't think any such discount on DDB content for owners of the physical books would need to be as high as 50%. Just some sort of olive branch being offered to the owners of physical books would go a long, long way.
DM: The Cult of the Crystal Spider (Currently playing Storm King's Thunder)
Player: The Knuckles of Arth - Lemire (Tiefling Rogue 5/Fighter 1)
-Dresden White
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
First I wanted to say, I understand the difference between licensing content and buying content. I also get that DDB is part of a business and needs to make money. My big issue isn't really paying for things twice, but that if I do pay for it a second time, I should at least own it twice. Instead, buying content on DDB is just paying for a license to access the content as long as the service is around.
I asked support about whether you're paying for rights to a digital copy or a license to access digital copy through DDB only. It was the latter. If I don't own the digital product, I don't feel right paying that much for it when I already own the rights to a physical copy. I had been thinking about buying content digitally only with DDB, but if I don't own it. Why should I buy it a second time?
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
If you mean a streaming service, then no, I am not buying music. I am paying to stream it. Even if I add it to "my library". If that service goes down, I lose that content, but I never paid to own it, just to listen to it. This is exactly what DDB is. They say buy, but they mean stream in functional equivalence speak.
-Dresden White
-Dresden White
Wizards has advertised DDB and supported it via social media, interviews, podcasts, etc in ways that they never have with FG or roll20. The relationship between WotC and DDB is clearly qualitatively different than those other platforms.
DM: The Cult of the Crystal Spider (Currently playing Storm King's Thunder)
Player: The Knuckles of Arth - Lemire (Tiefling Rogue 5/Fighter 1)