We had an encounter in a large arena with multiple teams of foes. A rogue on one of the enemy teams did was the rogues usually do: assassinate a creature, hide, rinse and repeat. He got a whole bunch of folks and was one of the biggest threats on the map (all while we were quite occupied and busy fighting everything else to try and find him by spending a turn to roll perception).
I was playing a chain warlock with a sprite familiar.
In this situation, could I tell my sprite to invisibly follow the rogue around at a safe distance, continuously keeping me updated on where the rogue is? What about keeping track of multiple creatures at the same time? Can I continue casting spells and fight, all while my Sprite essentially cancels out stealth for one or more targets? Even if the rogue succeeds at hiding from the Sprite at some point, I could have the Sprite roll perception on each of its turns until eventually the check beats the rogue's stealth.
.. according to the rules.. it does seem entirely possible, right?
I'm asking because it seems rather OP. What are your thoughts?
1) Remember that an Assassin only get Assassinate against a surprised enemy. They can action: attack, bonus action: hide, rinse and repeat, but that's only Advantage on the attack role and Sneak Attack.
Remember the Sprite has 40ft of Fly and Invisibility. As long as it's hidden then the Rogue is unlikely to detect it (since it would be trivial to kill) Also the Rogue can't hide if the Sprite would have clear Line of Sight, so if it jumps behind cover and the Sprite has clear LOS there is no Perception check the rogue is seen. The Sprite has a +8 and Invisibility, so it's "average" stealth check is 23!
Now I've been told that Stealth is all or nothing for the everyone, but that doesn't feel right to me. (if you have a citation please correct me). So the Sprite would see the Rogue, but you wouldn't. The Sprite is telepathically bonded to you, so it could be reasonable to argue that anything the Sprite knows about you do to. That said you don't necessarily see the Rogue, but you have a little buddy going "Hey, Listen!"
Thank you for the Navi reference, it would have been boring without it.
The stealth argument is overdone, RAW vs RAI, blah, blah. In this situation, this would be active perception due to following the sneaky rogue. Passive perception is used when you are preoccupied in combat. The sprite has a +3 to perception so it could follow a rogue reasonably well. So, by the mechanics of the game, yes, you can do what you are describing.
I would offer up, spell transfer or slight of hand to assist in your goal. It would greatly help to mark the rogue in an innocuous way so that you can see it without it being aware of the mark.
If you had the incantation Voice of the chain master, the Sprite could warn you telepathically where it was at all times, if the sprite could find a spot with cover it could make poisioned bow attacks which could knock out the rogue.
The stealth argument is overdone, RAW vs RAI, blah, blah. In this situation, this would be active perception due to following the sneaky rogue. Passive perception is used when you are preoccupied in combat.
Passive Perception is used whenever you're not actively looking for something, both in and out of combat. If someone successfully hides, you can use the Search action to find them.
I concur with FullMetalBunny. RAW the Rogue can't hide if the Sprite can see it, and nothing stops you from commanding your Sprite to take the Search action every single turn if the Rogue finds a good hiding spot. If the Rogue ever surfaces, you can Hex their Dexterity checks, making it much harder for them to hide.
They'll still have advantage if they can see you but you can't see them, but you'll know where they are.
The stealth argument is overdone, RAW vs RAI, blah, blah. In this situation, this would be active perception due to following the sneaky rogue. Passive perception is used when you are preoccupied in combat.
Passive Perception is used whenever you're not actively looking for something, both in and out of combat. If someone successfully hides, you can use the Search action to find them.
I concur with FullMetalBunny. RAW the Rogue can't hide if the Sprite can see it, and nothing stops you from commanding your Sprite to take the Search action every single turn if the Rogue finds a good hiding spot. If the Rogue ever surfaces, you can Hex their Dexterity checks, making it much harder for them to hide.
They'll still have advantage if they can see you but you can't see them, but you'll know where they are.
"Passive Perception is used whenever you're not actively looking for something, both in and out of combat. If someone successfully hides, you can use the Search action to find them."
Sorry ... but the comment about "Passive Perception" is absolutely incorrect. Passive perception is used whenever the player does not need to roll dice to resolve a check. Passive refers to the PLAYER actions and not to the character actions. (The part about using an action to search for successfully hidden creatures is correct).
"PASSIVE CHECKS A passive check is a special kind of ability check that doesn't involve any die rolls. Such a check can represent the average result for a task done repeatedly, such as searching for secret doors over and over again, or can be used when the DM wants to secretly determine whether the characters succeed at something without rolling dice, such as noticing a hidden monster."
Passive checks like passive perception may very well require the CHARACTER to be actively looking. There are lots of examples of this in the source material.
The example on trap finding in the Lost Mines of Phandelver adventure uses exactly this approach (p7).
"Snare. About 10 minutes after heading down the trail, a party on the path encounters a hidden snare. If the characters are searching for traps, the character in the lead spots the trap automatically if his or her passive Wisdom (Perception) score is 12 or higher. Otherwise, the character must succeed on a DC 12 Wisdom (Perception) check to notice the trap."
Anyway ... passive and active have ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with the CHARACTER actions or lack thereof ... they have to do with whether the circumstances require the PLAYER to roll a die.
In addition, in the case of hiding, stealth and perception ... Jeremy Crawford has a podcast where it is made pretty clear that in his interpretation, passive perception is a floor and a die roll is only required if the character would not be able to perceive the hidden creature with the passive perception score. During combat, it is assumed that the character is paying close attention to their surroundings in the fight and thus a passive perception vs active stealth roll is a reasonable way to resolve hiding assuming that appropriate cover is available to enable the stealth check in the first place.
P.S. To the OP ... as another poster mentioned ... the rogue would NOT get assassinate after the first surprise round (if there is a surprise round at all given everyone has been dumped into a combat arena and are unlikely to be surprised by attacks). Being hidden may enable advantage and allow for sneak attacks but that is NOT sufficient to enable the Assassinate ability which turns all hits into crits during the surprise round if the target is attacked before their initiative.
When you hide, there's a chance someone will notice you even if they aren't searching. To determine whether such a creature notices you, the DM compares your Dexterity (Stealth) check with that creature's passive Wisdom (Perception) score, which equals 10 + the creature's Wisdom modifier, as well as any other bonuses or penalties. If the creature has advantage, add 5. For disadvantage, subtract 5. For example, if a 1st-level character (with a proficiency bonus of +2) has a Wisdom of 15 (a +2 modifier) and proficiency in Perception, he or she has a passive Wisdom (Perception) of 14.
A trap's description specifies the checks and DCs needed to detect it, disable it, or both. A character actively looking for a trap can attempt a Wisdom (Perception) check against the trap's DC.You can also compare the DC to detect the trap with each character's passive Wisdom (Perception) score to determine whether anyone in the party notices the trap in passing.
Anyway ... passive and active have ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with the CHARACTER actions or lack thereof ...
In general, yes. Perception has its own rules.
they have to do with whether the circumstances require the PLAYER to roll a die.
It's not the circumstances that determine whether the player has to roll; it's the DM.
In addition, in the case of hiding, stealth and perception ... Jeremy Crawford has a podcast where it is made pretty clear that in his interpretation, passive perception is a floor and a die roll is only required if the character would not be able to perceive the hidden creature with the passive perception score.
That's because your passive Perception is used when you're not actively looking. If your passive Perception is 15, you'll notice anything that can be found with a Perception roll of 15. Rolling lower than that won't uncover anything you wouldn't have already found while just walking around.
Oh boy.. I really did not mean to turn this into a "how does perception work? passive vs active perception?" discussion. Although.. the things posted so far are a good reminder about all the confusion and the RAW RAI RAF interpretations that come with it. Thanks!
I'm going to try and get back to original topic -- having a familiar act as a beacon that basically constantly searches and tracks any sneaky things.
First, a bit on "Assassinate". In my original post, I meant the word figuratively - in the sense that the rogue managed to kill someone within one round of attacks. She (the rogue) was not getting to use assassinate over and over again. However, she did get the stealth bonus each time, which still made her quite competent at bringing down multiple combatants. In this particular battle, the rogue snuck around and essentially killed off all the casters from most of the teams (who were "foolishly" standing back from the main fray, casting spells from a distance.. alone). I think in total, the rogue got 6-7 creatures over a duration of ~40rounds/4minutes before finally getting caught and brought down.
Even though the rogue was indeed visible and actively in combat after each kill, my character and the rest of my team was too busy being engaged in the chaos of the main fray, without an opportunity engage the rogue each time she appeared, giving her opportunity to hide again. In my experience, even in shorter battles, rogues do often have the opportunity to run behind a tree/boulder/wall and hide again.
So, in this situation, after seeing the rogue the first time, I could tell my familiar: "keep following that rogue and warn me if she starts approaching someone on my team"
Okay, lets look at an alternative, less-specific situation. Upon entering a dungeon, I give my familiar one job and one job only: constantly look for sneaky things.
"Watch my back, foes are probably lurking around, don't let them get the jump on me or any of my teammates".
So, I basically entrust my familiar Sprite to fly around and keep rolling active perception every single round (or as often as the DM deems reasonable), until a good/lucky perception roll supersedes a stealthed creature's score.
I *am* giving up something for this - the typical use of a familiar in a combat scenario is to have the familiar use the help action, giving myself or someone else advantage on their next attack. However, I do believe this could be arguably less effective than increasing the chances of denying someone's stealth and especially a surprise assassination.
So..... Is this overpowered and 'less fun' (if going with RAF), or does it all seem quite legit?
I suppose, in my opinion, it's all good... and then the point of this whole post is to merely go "hey! look at this cool thing familiars can do that I haven't seen anyone else do or talk about before"
"So, I basically entrust my familiar Sprite to fly around and keep rolling active perception every single round (or as often as the DM deems reasonable), until a good/lucky perception roll supersedes a stealthed creature's score."
PHB
"SEARCH When you take the Search action, you devote your attention to finding something. Depending on the nature of your search, the DM might have you make a Wisdom (Perception) check or an Intelligence (Investigation) check."
"FIND FAMILIAR
.. Your familiar acts independently of you, but it always obeys your commands. In combat, it rolls its own initiative and acts on its own turn. A familiar can't attack, but it can take other actions as normal."
"HIDING
You can't hide from a creature that can see you, and if you make noise (such as shouting a warning or knocking over a vase), you give away your position."
1) Your familiar can take the Search action each round if you like.
2) It is up to the DM to decide if there is anything within its field of view that it could reveal by this check. If the rogue is still behind some cover that conceals it completely from the familiar then the familiar likely won't be able to find the hidden creature anyway. Any noise the stealthed creature makes would likely be covered by the sounds of combat though this is again a DM decision.
3) A creature can't hide from another creature if it is still in full view. So if the familiar flew up high making more of the arena visible to its senses this could prevent the rogue from hiding from the familiar in the first place though the rogue could still be hidden from you and your team mates.
So .. the familiar could be used to keep an eye on the rogue and the familiar could use the search action on its turn to try to discover where the rogue is located.
From FIND FAMILIAR
"While your familiar is within 100 feet of you, you can communicate with it telepathically."
The consensus I found appears to indicate that this allows for free two way communication between the familiar and the caster.
As a result, the familiar could let you know where the rogue is but unless you can actually observe that location directly yourself (in which case the rogue would not have been able to hide in the first place), the rogue would remain hidden as far as you are concerned since as far as you can tell from your vantage point the rogue ducked behind some specific cover and was able to hide from you ... all the familiar does is confirm that the rogue is still there behind that cover ... it doesn't give you an actual view of the rogue unless you look through your familiar's senses.
Being hidden when a creature attacks means that its target is not as aware of the creature as it could be since it isn't being actively watched and any movement the target might make to avoid an attack is reduced which gives the attacker an advantage when attacking from a hidden position.
It would be up to the DM to decide if moving from cover to attack could reveal the creature and remove the effect of hiding before the creature can execute its attack. (For example, in the case where your familiar might alert you to the rogue moving to attack you the DM might allow you to notice the rogue before they execute the attack and thus might lose advantage ... however, if the rogue was moving to attack a team mate ... I would tend to rule that you would not be able to effectively communicate to your team mate that the rogue was about to attack from behind some specific cover since by the time you finish trying to get the attention of your team mate and say where and why they need to be looking for the attack ... it would likely have already happened ... though this is again a DM decision).
So ... I don't think it as powerful as you think since hiding is on a per creature basis.
"When you hide, there's a chance someone will notice you even if they aren't searching. To determine whether such a creature notices you, the DM compares your Dexterity (Stealth) check with that creature's passive Wisdom (Perception) score"
For creatures with different passive perception ... some might see you and some won't. The rogue in this case might be deemed to be hidden from some folks and not others. However, the familiar might well be able to keep an eye on the rogue and warn you when he heads in your general direction. It may not prevent the sneak attack but you will know he is coming and may be able to plan a surprise for them.
We had an encounter in a large arena with multiple teams of foes. A rogue on one of the enemy teams did was the rogues usually do: assassinate a creature, hide, rinse and repeat. He got a whole bunch of folks and was one of the biggest threats on the map (all while we were quite occupied and busy fighting everything else to try and find him by spending a turn to roll perception).
I was playing a chain warlock with a sprite familiar.
In this situation, could I tell my sprite to invisibly follow the rogue around at a safe distance, continuously keeping me updated on where the rogue is? What about keeping track of multiple creatures at the same time? Can I continue casting spells and fight, all while my Sprite essentially cancels out stealth for one or more targets? Even if the rogue succeeds at hiding from the Sprite at some point, I could have the Sprite roll perception on each of its turns until eventually the check beats the rogue's stealth.
.. according to the rules.. it does seem entirely possible, right?
I'm asking because it seems rather OP. What are your thoughts?
1) Remember that an Assassin only get Assassinate against a surprised enemy.
They can action: attack, bonus action: hide, rinse and repeat, but that's only Advantage on the attack role and Sneak Attack.
Remember the Sprite has 40ft of Fly and Invisibility. As long as it's hidden then the Rogue is unlikely to detect it (since it would be trivial to kill)
Also the Rogue can't hide if the Sprite would have clear Line of Sight, so if it jumps behind cover and the Sprite has clear LOS there is no Perception check the rogue is seen.
The Sprite has a +8 and Invisibility, so it's "average" stealth check is 23!
Now I've been told that Stealth is all or nothing for the everyone, but that doesn't feel right to me. (if you have a citation please correct me).
So the Sprite would see the Rogue, but you wouldn't. The Sprite is telepathically bonded to you, so it could be reasonable to argue that anything the Sprite knows about you do to.
That said you don't necessarily see the Rogue, but you have a little buddy going "Hey, Listen!"
Thank you for the Navi reference, it would have been boring without it.
The stealth argument is overdone, RAW vs RAI, blah, blah. In this situation, this would be active perception due to following the sneaky rogue. Passive perception is used when you are preoccupied in combat. The sprite has a +3 to perception so it could follow a rogue reasonably well. So, by the mechanics of the game, yes, you can do what you are describing.
I would offer up, spell transfer or slight of hand to assist in your goal. It would greatly help to mark the rogue in an innocuous way so that you can see it without it being aware of the mark.
If you had the incantation Voice of the chain master, the Sprite could warn you telepathically where it was at all times, if the sprite could find a spot with cover it could make poisioned bow attacks which could knock out the rogue.
Passive Perception is used whenever you're not actively looking for something, both in and out of combat. If someone successfully hides, you can use the Search action to find them.
I concur with FullMetalBunny. RAW the Rogue can't hide if the Sprite can see it, and nothing stops you from commanding your Sprite to take the Search action every single turn if the Rogue finds a good hiding spot. If the Rogue ever surfaces, you can Hex their Dexterity checks, making it much harder for them to hide.
They'll still have advantage if they can see you but you can't see them, but you'll know where they are.
A passive check is a special kind of ability check that doesn't involve any die rolls. Such a check can represent the average result for a task done repeatedly, such as searching for secret doors over and over again, or can be used when the DM wants to secretly determine whether the characters succeed at something without rolling dice, such as noticing a hidden monster."
The example on trap finding in the Lost Mines of Phandelver adventure uses exactly this approach (p7).
"Snare. About 10 minutes after heading down the trail, a party on the path encounters a hidden snare. If the characters are searching for traps, the character in the lead spots the trap automatically if his or her passive Wisdom (Perception) score is 12 or higher. Otherwise, the character must succeed on a DC 12 Wisdom (Perception) check to notice the trap."
Question: if you and the rogue are on the same team, why would you WANT to deny him his stealth in combat?
Subclass: Dwarven Defender - Dragonborn Paragon
Feats: Artificer Apprentice
Monsters: Sheep - Spellbreaker Warforged Titan
Magic Items: Whipier - Ring of Secret Storage - Collar of the Guardian
Monster template: Skeletal Creature
Using Ability Scores, Dexterity, Hiding:
Adventuring, Movement, Noticing Threats:
Developer quotes:
"A DM uses passive Perception when you might notice something but aren't actively searching. If you search, you make a check."
"See "Hiding" (PH, 177) for how hiding works. Unless someone is actively searching, Stealth is opposed by passive Wisdom (Perception)"
In general, yes. Perception has its own rules.
It's not the circumstances that determine whether the player has to roll; it's the DM.
Oh boy.. I really did not mean to turn this into a "how does perception work? passive vs active perception?" discussion. Although.. the things posted so far are a good reminder about all the confusion and the RAW RAI RAF interpretations that come with it. Thanks!
I'm going to try and get back to original topic -- having a familiar act as a beacon that basically constantly searches and tracks any sneaky things.
First, a bit on "Assassinate". In my original post, I meant the word figuratively - in the sense that the rogue managed to kill someone within one round of attacks. She (the rogue) was not getting to use assassinate over and over again. However, she did get the stealth bonus each time, which still made her quite competent at bringing down multiple combatants. In this particular battle, the rogue snuck around and essentially killed off all the casters from most of the teams (who were "foolishly" standing back from the main fray, casting spells from a distance.. alone). I think in total, the rogue got 6-7 creatures over a duration of ~40rounds/4minutes before finally getting caught and brought down.
=======================================================================================
Okay, lets look at an alternative, less-specific situation. Upon entering a dungeon, I give my familiar one job and one job only: constantly look for sneaky things.
"Watch my back, foes are probably lurking around, don't let them get the jump on me or any of my teammates".
=======================================================================================
So..... Is this overpowered and 'less fun' (if going with RAF), or does it all seem quite legit?
"So, I basically entrust my familiar Sprite to fly around and keep rolling active perception every single round (or as often as the DM deems reasonable), until a good/lucky perception roll supersedes a stealthed creature's score."
PHB
"SEARCH
When you take the Search action, you devote your attention to finding something. Depending on the nature of your search, the DM might have you make a Wisdom (Perception) check or an Intelligence (Investigation) check."
"FIND FAMILIAR
.. Your familiar acts independently of you, but it always obeys your commands. In combat, it rolls its own initiative and acts on its own turn. A familiar can't attack, but it can take other actions as normal."
"HIDING
You can't hide from a creature that can see you, and if you make noise (such as shouting a warning or knocking over a vase), you give away your position."
1) Your familiar can take the Search action each round if you like.
2) It is up to the DM to decide if there is anything within its field of view that it could reveal by this check. If the rogue is still behind some cover that conceals it completely from the familiar then the familiar likely won't be able to find the hidden creature anyway. Any noise the stealthed creature makes would likely be covered by the sounds of combat though this is again a DM decision.
3) A creature can't hide from another creature if it is still in full view. So if the familiar flew up high making more of the arena visible to its senses this could prevent the rogue from hiding from the familiar in the first place though the rogue could still be hidden from you and your team mates.
So .. the familiar could be used to keep an eye on the rogue and the familiar could use the search action on its turn to try to discover where the rogue is located.
From FIND FAMILIAR
"While your familiar is within 100 feet of you, you can communicate with it telepathically."
The consensus I found appears to indicate that this allows for free two way communication between the familiar and the caster.
As a result, the familiar could let you know where the rogue is but unless you can actually observe that location directly yourself (in which case the rogue would not have been able to hide in the first place), the rogue would remain hidden as far as you are concerned since as far as you can tell from your vantage point the rogue ducked behind some specific cover and was able to hide from you ... all the familiar does is confirm that the rogue is still there behind that cover ... it doesn't give you an actual view of the rogue unless you look through your familiar's senses.
Being hidden when a creature attacks means that its target is not as aware of the creature as it could be since it isn't being actively watched and any movement the target might make to avoid an attack is reduced which gives the attacker an advantage when attacking from a hidden position.
It would be up to the DM to decide if moving from cover to attack could reveal the creature and remove the effect of hiding before the creature can execute its attack. (For example, in the case where your familiar might alert you to the rogue moving to attack you the DM might allow you to notice the rogue before they execute the attack and thus might lose advantage ... however, if the rogue was moving to attack a team mate ... I would tend to rule that you would not be able to effectively communicate to your team mate that the rogue was about to attack from behind some specific cover since by the time you finish trying to get the attention of your team mate and say where and why they need to be looking for the attack ... it would likely have already happened ... though this is again a DM decision).
So ... I don't think it as powerful as you think since hiding is on a per creature basis.
"When you hide, there's a chance someone will notice you even if they aren't searching. To determine whether such a creature notices you, the DM compares your Dexterity (Stealth) check with that creature's passive Wisdom (Perception) score"
For creatures with different passive perception ... some might see you and some won't. The rogue in this case might be deemed to be hidden from some folks and not others. However, the familiar might well be able to keep an eye on the rogue and warn you when he heads in your general direction. It may not prevent the sneak attack but you will know he is coming and may be able to plan a surprise for them.