So since the introduction of a new playable class outside of the PHB, ive had a few questions as to how it interacts with existing rules, and most specifically feats. The most notable one being Magic Initiate. From what i can tell the prerequisite for being allowed to take a class into that feat, the class needs to have access to cantrips and first level spells at level 1, which the Artificer does.
The main reason for this question is that the Artificer is one of 2 INT based classes, the other being the wizard, and i would prefer to keep my spell casting ability the same. The issue arises because the Artificer spell list dips quite a bit into spells that the wizard doesn’t have access to, such as healing spells and some primal magic druidy spells, which would be very nice to have a free cast of between long rests.
So i suppose my question is; Should players be allowed to take Magic Initiate into the Artificer class?
As long as they have a reason for doing so, anything in the rules can be done. The thing to note though, gotta be careful about the spell selection, as most abilities that pump up spells in some way (arcane firearm, etc) specify Artificer spells. So no shenanigans like an artificer with eldritch blast (pout).
Currently the Magic Initiate feat has yet to be errata'd to allow players to select Artificer as the chosen class. So it is up to GMs to determine if they will allow that within their campaign.
So as an artificer, you're wanting to take Magic Initiate (Artificer)? I've honestly never considered taking your own classes magic initiate. Do people regularly do this?
I've heard of a few folks do so. Myself, would j ust atke wizard though. Because same INT, same DC/spell attack etc.
on my artificer, i'd default to using Wizard magic initiate to pick up my attack spells (alchemist i was looking at toll the dead or chill touch, as there is no necrotic cantrip on the artificer list. and I'd like that damage type--and they both have good utility ( one is DC so no need to hit, the other is hit and removes healing/regen). Probably one of those, or just both, depending on if i want ray of frost (I like the utility cantrips-removing speed is nice) I snag attack on that because Artificer cantrips can be switched on level--where as these can not, so I'd prefer to be able to switch out my utility cantrips, since typically you choose one or two attack cantrips and tend to just stick with them. where as my group may end up having someone else with mage hands, etc. or I may find that I dont use mending much. (depending on the timing, I could in theory just remake my humuclus daily though thats not ideal a s tthere is a grey weird area as far as the remaking-i.e. you'd need to rotate in something new while remaking your infusions because you need to start one to end a previous one and you can't start one thats already one.. i think). I've also looked at it from druid--good berry 1/day spell, and utility cantrips (when I knew I'd want those two utility always)
but thats a tangent. I can't think of a compelling reason to initiate your own class as an artificer. Unless you were wanting one of the cantrips that are not on Wizard since artificers have a few that are druid or other class based. Taking it from articier makes them INT based compared to taking from their original.
Selecting Magic Initiate (Your Own Class) is a means of expanding your spell list.
The spellcasting feature for your native class allows you to cast "Your Class' Spells" with your spell slots; the spell you gain from Magic Initiate counts as a spell of the chosen class. In essence, you gain two extra cantrips and an extra first-level spell which you gain a single free-a-day casting of, which is a splendid use of a feat slot for some players. For artificers this would be even more pertinent, given their crushing paucity of cantrip options.
So as an artificer, you're wanting to take Magic Initiate (Artificer)? I've honestly never considered taking your own classes magic initiate. Do people regularly do this?
I have done it in the past for a Warlock once and as either Arcane Trickster or Eldritch Knight (both technically use the Wizard list) to get a few more options without having to multiclass. I did it for a Divine Soul once too for the same reason since they get access to two lists. I immagini it will be even more common now with Cantrip/Spell Versatility being a thing.
I even had a bard take Ritual Caster once just to clear up space in my “Spells Known” column. Spell Versatility would have been SUPER sweet then.
People don’t regularly do this? I do this on almost every spell caster i have ever played because of the, extra known spell and the two bonus cantrips which is really useful for classes that dont have cantrips, or have very few cantrips.
Selecting Magic Initiate (Your Own Class) is a means of expanding your spell list.
The spellcasting feature for your native class allows you to cast "Your Class' Spells" with your spell slots; the spell you gain from Magic Initiate counts as a spell of the chosen class. In essence, you gain two extra cantrips and an extra first-level spell which you gain a single free-a-day casting of, which is a splendid use of a feat slot for some players. For artificers this would be even more pertinent, given their crushing paucity of cantrip options.
I can't tell if you're implying they could use the 1/day for their subclass abilities? (I have no clue if that would work or not myself. I don't know enough about how multiclassing or extra spell slots work in 5E yet so I thought to ask clarification). Or did you mean-because its your class's spell (specifically), that it counts as one of your "prepared" choices and you can spend one of your normal slots on it? I can't see much functional difference between Magic Initiate Wizard and Artificer for the Artificer. (Excluding the possible mentions above) Though either way, I tend to default with Featherfall for my 1/day. Doesn't come up much--but boy when it does I want it. If it counts as prepped for other slots.. then I actually would consider doing it with a different spell. not sure which.... (Magic initiate and SpellSniper are both wonderful for the Artificer who have real cantrip issues-but 2/3rds of the subclasses are cantrip based combatants typically. Or at least it feels like they are. I'm still pondering building types on Alchemist.. mine is weird. they cantrip and punch via improvised weapons)
Selecting Magic Initiate (Your Own Class) is a means of expanding your spell list.
The spellcasting feature for your native class allows you to cast "Your Class' Spells" with your spell slots; the spell you gain from Magic Initiate counts as a spell of the chosen class. In essence, you gain two extra cantrips and an extra first-level spell which you gain a single free-a-day casting of, which is a splendid use of a feat slot for some players. For artificers this would be even more pertinent, given their crushing paucity of cantrip options.
I can't tell if you're implying they could use the 1/day for their subclass abilities? (I have no clue if that would work or not myself. I don't know enough about how multiclassing or extra spell slots work in 5E yet so I thought to ask clarification). Or did you mean-because its your class's spell (specifically), that it counts as one of your "prepared" choices and you can spend one of your normal slots on it? I can't see much functional difference between Magic Initiate Wizard and Artificer for the Artificer. (Excluding the possible mentions above) Though either way, I tend to default with Featherfall for my 1/day. Doesn't come up much--but boy when it does I want it. If it counts as prepped for other slots.. then I actually would consider doing it with a different spell. not sure which.... (Magic initiate and SpellSniper are both wonderful for the Artificer who have real cantrip issues-but 2/3rds of the subclasses are cantrip based combatants typically. Or at least it feels like they are. I'm still pondering building types on Alchemist.. mine is weird. they cantrip and punch via improvised weapons)
RAW- Spellcasting: For each class allows you to cast any spell from that classes list that you have learned/have prepared using a spell slot
RAW- Magic Initiate: You choose a spell from a list (all the full casters) and you learn that spell. You can cast it once a day without expending a spell slot.
So essentially, yes it allows you to have another known/prepared spell at any given time, which is why it would be useful for the Artificer (Not to mention 4 cantrips only, on a very cantrip focused class is high key irritating). That being said, if the spell appears on the Wizard list AND the Artificer list, (such as Feather Fall) it is technically (RAW) and Artificer spell. My issue is i want ones that aren’t on the Wizard list (cure wounds or sanctuary which are better free casts for me)
Ah that is a nifty trick. Yep that certainly is a nifty method then. Can snag an extra always on spell of some sort. Though, i feel like I don't have enough slots to really worry about having more choices. Though my artilirist might enjoy an always prepared shield (from subclass) and Absorb Elements. Those can be useful in a pinch. Purely 1/day wouldn't be worth it, but 1/day+the option of more when I need it isn't too terrible... For the random spell doom aoes.
This does highlight how annoying it is for me, that they have no necrotic cantrips. My Alchemist would rather enjoy one. Two feats instead of stats would be a mit painful, but magic initiate+spellsniper might be fun. costs a lot but extra spells, cantrips and range would also be very nice.
I'd considered (Warlock) for Eldritch Blast for a force damage cantrip for my artillerist. I'm playing in a primarily urban campaign, and freely flinging around firebolts is not a good idea for a DM that pays attention to that "ignites flammable material" clause. But, as previously mentioned, Arcane Firearm specifically calls for artificer spells to add the 1d8.....so blah. I've been having to use Ray of Frost as my primary damage cantrip.
Also, Cha to hit isn't the best thing to tack onto an INT to hit class. Its pretty hard to have decent Charisma.. Though, a warlock dip is pretty tempting for Alchemists (just not enough elixirs otherwise).
Prior to lv 5 Magic Stone puts in some real work for Alchemists/Artilirists. Shame it has no scaling to it.
If you study the list of casters available usign the Magical Initiate feat, you will see that they are all Full Casters. None are half or third casters. Thus the Artificer, which is a 1/2 caster, is not available.
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Third casters dont have their own spell list, they just use the wizards. And the other half casters dont have a cantrip list which automatically disqualifies them as an option. But the Artificer fits everything necessary to be an option (cantrips and first level spells at first level, which is also different to half and semi casters) which is why im asking this question, it is an outlier to most rules
Artificer's have NO spells unique to them. All their spells come from other caster lists. Also, as stated before, they are still only 1/2 casters.
Personally, I'd take Magical Initiate (Wizard). This gives you access to Booming Blade & Green Flame Blade. Cantrip that should already be on the Artificer;s list but aren't. Not sure what I'd take as a 1st level spell. Probably Shield as it would let me use it free 1/day.
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Choose a class: bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, warlock, or wizard. You learn two cantrips of your choice from that class's spell list.
In addition, choose one 1st-level spell from that same list. You learn that spell and can cast it at its lowest level. Once you cast it, you must finish a long rest before you can cast it again using this feat.
Your spellcasting ability for these spells depends on the class you chose: Charisma for bard, sorcerer, or warlock; Wisdom for cleric or druid: or Intelligence for wizard.
Given the nature of the wording, it selects classes specifically for the feat. My take on this is that it will only work for those classes unless an errata or a clarification in Sage Advice is made on the matter.
Personally (as a DM) I wouldn't be too fussed with an artificer-based MI feat choice. It's very similar to wizard and helps people who actually want INT on their characters.
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So since the introduction of a new playable class outside of the PHB, ive had a few questions as to how it interacts with existing rules, and most specifically feats.
The most notable one being Magic Initiate. From what i can tell the prerequisite for being allowed to take a class into that feat, the class needs to have access to cantrips and first level spells at level 1, which the Artificer does.
The main reason for this question is that the Artificer is one of 2 INT based classes, the other being the wizard, and i would prefer to keep my spell casting ability the same. The issue arises because the Artificer spell list dips quite a bit into spells that the wizard doesn’t have access to, such as healing spells and some primal magic druidy spells, which would be very nice to have a free cast of between long rests.
So i suppose my question is; Should players be allowed to take Magic Initiate into the Artificer class?
As long as they have a reason for doing so, anything in the rules can be done. The thing to note though, gotta be careful about the spell selection, as most abilities that pump up spells in some way (arcane firearm, etc) specify Artificer spells. So no shenanigans like an artificer with eldritch blast (pout).
My question is more; as an Artificer can i take the Magic Initiate feat for more Artificer spells
Although I appreciate you pointing that out, about the spell specifications
Currently the Magic Initiate feat has yet to be errata'd to allow players to select Artificer as the chosen class. So it is up to GMs to determine if they will allow that within their campaign.
So as an artificer, you're wanting to take Magic Initiate (Artificer)? I've honestly never considered taking your own classes magic initiate. Do people regularly do this?
I've heard of a few folks do so.
Myself, would j ust atke wizard though. Because same INT, same DC/spell attack etc.
on my artificer, i'd default to using Wizard magic initiate to pick up my attack spells (alchemist i was looking at toll the dead or chill touch, as there is no necrotic cantrip on the artificer list. and I'd like that damage type--and they both have good utility ( one is DC so no need to hit, the other is hit and removes healing/regen). Probably one of those, or just both, depending on if i want ray of frost (I like the utility cantrips-removing speed is nice)
I snag attack on that because Artificer cantrips can be switched on level--where as these can not, so I'd prefer to be able to switch out my utility cantrips, since typically you choose one or two attack cantrips and tend to just stick with them. where as my group may end up having someone else with mage hands, etc. or I may find that I dont use mending much. (depending on the timing, I could in theory just remake my humuclus daily though thats not ideal a s tthere is a grey weird area as far as the remaking-i.e. you'd need to rotate in something new while remaking your infusions because you need to start one to end a previous one and you can't start one thats already one.. i think).
I've also looked at it from druid--good berry 1/day spell, and utility cantrips (when I knew I'd want those two utility always)
but thats a tangent. I can't think of a compelling reason to initiate your own class as an artificer. Unless you were wanting one of the cantrips that are not on Wizard since artificers have a few that are druid or other class based. Taking it from articier makes them INT based compared to taking from their original.
Selecting Magic Initiate (Your Own Class) is a means of expanding your spell list.
The spellcasting feature for your native class allows you to cast "Your Class' Spells" with your spell slots; the spell you gain from Magic Initiate counts as a spell of the chosen class. In essence, you gain two extra cantrips and an extra first-level spell which you gain a single free-a-day casting of, which is a splendid use of a feat slot for some players. For artificers this would be even more pertinent, given their crushing paucity of cantrip options.
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I have done it in the past for a Warlock once and as either Arcane Trickster or Eldritch Knight (both technically use the Wizard list) to get a few more options without having to multiclass. I did it for a Divine Soul once too for the same reason since they get access to two lists. I immagini it will be even more common now with Cantrip/Spell Versatility being a thing.
I even had a bard take Ritual Caster once just to clear up space in my “Spells Known” column. Spell Versatility would have been SUPER sweet then.
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People don’t regularly do this? I do this on almost every spell caster i have ever played because of the, extra known spell and the two bonus cantrips which is really useful for classes that dont have cantrips, or have very few cantrips.
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I can't tell if you're implying they could use the 1/day for their subclass abilities? (I have no clue if that would work or not myself. I don't know enough about how multiclassing or extra spell slots work in 5E yet so I thought to ask clarification). Or did you mean-because its your class's spell (specifically), that it counts as one of your "prepared" choices and you can spend one of your normal slots on it?
I can't see much functional difference between Magic Initiate Wizard and Artificer for the Artificer. (Excluding the possible mentions above) Though either way, I tend to default with Featherfall for my 1/day. Doesn't come up much--but boy when it does I want it. If it counts as prepped for other slots.. then I actually would consider doing it with a different spell. not sure which....
(Magic initiate and SpellSniper are both wonderful for the Artificer who have real cantrip issues-but 2/3rds of the subclasses are cantrip based combatants typically. Or at least it feels like they are. I'm still pondering building types on Alchemist.. mine is weird. they cantrip and punch via improvised weapons)
RAW- Spellcasting: For each class allows you to cast any spell from that classes list that you have learned/have prepared using a spell slot
RAW- Magic Initiate: You choose a spell from a list (all the full casters) and you learn that spell. You can cast it once a day without expending a spell slot.
So essentially, yes it allows you to have another known/prepared spell at any given time, which is why it would be useful for the Artificer (Not to mention 4 cantrips only, on a very cantrip focused class is high key irritating). That being said, if the spell appears on the Wizard list AND the Artificer list, (such as Feather Fall) it is technically (RAW) and Artificer spell. My issue is i want ones that aren’t on the Wizard list (cure wounds or sanctuary which are better free casts for me)
Ah that is a nifty trick. Yep that certainly is a nifty method then. Can snag an extra always on spell of some sort.
Though, i feel like I don't have enough slots to really worry about having more choices. Though my artilirist might enjoy an always prepared shield (from subclass) and Absorb Elements. Those can be useful in a pinch. Purely 1/day wouldn't be worth it, but 1/day+the option of more when I need it isn't too terrible...
For the random spell doom aoes.
This does highlight how annoying it is for me, that they have no necrotic cantrips. My Alchemist would rather enjoy one. Two feats instead of stats would be a mit painful, but magic initiate+spellsniper might be fun. costs a lot but extra spells, cantrips and range would also be very nice.
I'd considered (Warlock) for Eldritch Blast for a force damage cantrip for my artillerist. I'm playing in a primarily urban campaign, and freely flinging around firebolts is not a good idea for a DM that pays attention to that "ignites flammable material" clause. But, as previously mentioned, Arcane Firearm specifically calls for artificer spells to add the 1d8.....so blah. I've been having to use Ray of Frost as my primary damage cantrip.
Also, Cha to hit isn't the best thing to tack onto an INT to hit class. Its pretty hard to have decent Charisma..
Though, a warlock dip is pretty tempting for Alchemists (just not enough elixirs otherwise).
Prior to lv 5 Magic Stone puts in some real work for Alchemists/Artilirists. Shame it has no scaling to it.
Right, when I looked, i hadn't realized at the time that magic initiate spells were cast as the feat class....if that makes sense.
Oh okay
If you study the list of casters available usign the Magical Initiate feat, you will see that they are all Full Casters. None are half or third casters. Thus the Artificer, which is a 1/2 caster, is not available.
Watch your back, conserve your ammo,
and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
Third casters dont have their own spell list, they just use the wizards. And the other half casters dont have a cantrip list which automatically disqualifies them as an option. But the Artificer fits everything necessary to be an option (cantrips and first level spells at first level, which is also different to half and semi casters) which is why im asking this question, it is an outlier to most rules
Artificer's have NO spells unique to them. All their spells come from other caster lists. Also, as stated before, they are still only 1/2 casters.
Personally, I'd take Magical Initiate (Wizard). This gives you access to Booming Blade & Green Flame Blade. Cantrip that should already be on the Artificer;s list but aren't. Not sure what I'd take as a 1st level spell. Probably Shield as it would let me use it free 1/day.
Watch your back, conserve your ammo,
and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
Well here's the wording of Magic Initiate:
Given the nature of the wording, it selects classes specifically for the feat. My take on this is that it will only work for those classes unless an errata or a clarification in Sage Advice is made on the matter.
Personally (as a DM) I wouldn't be too fussed with an artificer-based MI feat choice. It's very similar to wizard and helps people who actually want INT on their characters.