I do not think the berserker sucks, but I do think it is hard to min/max it unless you roll for ability scores and roll well. Min/maxing is not necessarily the only way to have fun though and I do have many PCs that are decidedly suboptimal. However, I have an example of fantastic rolls and if my DM was not present for it, he said he would not have believed it himself. 18, 17, 16, 16, 12, 10. In fact, one of the 16s was previously a 13, but my DM asked me to reroll it so I wouldn’t imbalance the party. It rolled a 16 the second time and he threw up his hands and said that the dice gods have made their decision. I knew I wanted to use these for a subclass I generally avoid and the berserker made sense at the time.
Note: We houseruled that as long as I do something strength-related, I can use strength as my modifier for intimidation. I realize this adds support to the discussion on why berserker is less than ideal, but it is what it is.
I'll ask you firsthand, then. Have you tried using your defining subclass feature twice in one day yet? If so, how did you deal with the consequences? Did you simply convince your DM to let you take 2 long rests afterward?
No, I have not used frenzy twice between rests before. Much like any subclass’ defining ability, I do not use it just because I have the ability to do so. I try to balance benefit and consequence. In terms of consequences, check disadvantages are really not a big deal in a full party. Almost every single check can be covered by someone else if you are really worried about checks. Because of our houseruling with intimidation, the disadvantage is not even really a problem because my modifier is so high for both athletics and intimidation.
But this is only for those concerned with perfect outcomes every time. Why have a barbarian if you do not want to create problems and then solve them? If I want to roll a check, I do not let disadvantage stop me. Fail an intimidation check and you get to swing the axe. Seems like a win/win for my barbarian.
I strongly disagree. This guaranteed exhaustion makes your character worse for an entire day after a single fight. And sure others can pick up the pieces after. But at that point it’s close to “go watch tv in another room and call me in when it’s a fight”.
I am here for risks and reward. But there is no risk here it’s straight exhaustion. I can’t think of any other subclass that a single use gives disadvantage on every single skill check.
and this isn’t about perfect rolls. This is about fun. I’ve had multiple people play a berserker and they absolutely will not use the frenzy at all in a day unless it’s a final boss. I see it maybe once every 6-10 sessions and frankly at that point any other barb would be better. They want to be able to enjoy things that aren’t just combat too like the rest of us. Exhaustion either needs to be a risk, not a guarantee, or we need a freebie once per day.
I do not think the berserker sucks, but I do think it is hard to min/max it unless you roll for ability scores and roll well. Min/maxing is not necessarily the only way to have fun though and I do have many PCs that are decidedly suboptimal. However, I have an example of fantastic rolls and if my DM was not present for it, he said he would not have believed it himself. 18, 17, 16, 16, 12, 10. In fact, one of the 16s was previously a 13, but my DM asked me to reroll it so I wouldn’t imbalance the party. It rolled a 16 the second time and he threw up his hands and said that the dice gods have made their decision. I knew I wanted to use these for a subclass I generally avoid and the berserker made sense at the time.
Note: We houseruled that as long as I do something strength-related, I can use strength as my modifier for intimidation. I realize this adds support to the discussion on why berserker is less than ideal, but it is what it is.
I'll ask you firsthand, then. Have you tried using your defining subclass feature twice in one day yet? If so, how did you deal with the consequences? Did you simply convince your DM to let you take 2 long rests afterward?
No, I have not used frenzy twice between rests before. Much like any subclass’ defining ability, I do not use it just because I have the ability to do so. I try to balance benefit and consequence. In terms of consequences, check disadvantages are really not a big deal in a full party. Almost every single check can be covered by someone else if you are really worried about checks. Because of our houseruling with intimidation, the disadvantage is not even really a problem because my modifier is so high for both athletics and intimidation.
But this is only for those concerned with perfect outcomes every time. Why have a barbarian if you do not want to create problems and then solve them? If I want to roll a check, I do not let disadvantage stop me. Fail an intimidation check and you get to swing the axe. Seems like a win/win for my barbarian.
What other subclass ability has harsh consequences? The closest thing I can think of is the wild magic sorc's table, but even that is at least a random chance of a bad consequence mixed with a random chance of a benefit.
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Yeah I am trying to think of another subclass that tries the "annoy you to not use it" approach Bezerker does and I can't think of one...
Hence why its poor design as it doesn't even follow trends or balance ideals from any other subclass. If they wanted to use it as a baseline for using abilites that would be fine (Action surge gives fighter exhaustion, Wizards get exhaustion if they run out of slots, Monks get exhaustion for running out of ki, etc....) but they don't and it sits on an island of its own design which makes it worse IMO.
I do not think the berserker sucks, but I do think it is hard to min/max it unless you roll for ability scores and roll well. Min/maxing is not necessarily the only way to have fun though and I do have many PCs that are decidedly suboptimal. However, I have an example of fantastic rolls and if my DM was not present for it, he said he would not have believed it himself. 18, 17, 16, 16, 12, 10. In fact, one of the 16s was previously a 13, but my DM asked me to reroll it so I wouldn’t imbalance the party. It rolled a 16 the second time and he threw up his hands and said that the dice gods have made their decision. I knew I wanted to use these for a subclass I generally avoid and the berserker made sense at the time.
Note: We houseruled that as long as I do something strength-related, I can use strength as my modifier for intimidation. I realize this adds support to the discussion on why berserker is less than ideal, but it is what it is.
I'll ask you firsthand, then. Have you tried using your defining subclass feature twice in one day yet? If so, how did you deal with the consequences? Did you simply convince your DM to let you take 2 long rests afterward?
No, I have not used frenzy twice between rests before. Much like any subclass’ defining ability, I do not use it just because I have the ability to do so. I try to balance benefit and consequence. In terms of consequences, check disadvantages are really not a big deal in a full party. Almost every single check can be covered by someone else if you are really worried about checks. Because of our houseruling with intimidation, the disadvantage is not even really a problem because my modifier is so high for both athletics and intimidation.
But this is only for those concerned with perfect outcomes every time. Why have a barbarian if you do not want to create problems and then solve them? If I want to roll a check, I do not let disadvantage stop me. Fail an intimidation check and you get to swing the axe. Seems like a win/win for my barbarian.
What other subclass ability has harsh consequences? The closest thing I can think of is the wild magic sorc's table, but even that is at least a random chance of a bad consequence mixed with a random chance of a benefit.
I am not sure why you are asking this question when everyone here already knows that the answer is no other subclass has this level of consequence.
Perhaps I misunderstood your comment, but the two bolded parts of your other comment suggested to me that you felt that your general approach to all subclasses was to "balance the benefits and consequences", thus suggesting that you felt other subclasses had abilities with consequences as well.
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I am surprised this hasn't been brought up but as a Berserker if you want to contribute to non-combat situations while exhausted you can use the Help action. This lets you contribute to skill checks by giving your ally advantage. If your ally was better at the given skill check to begin with then being exhausted had literally no consequences on your ability to contribute to the parties success.
Sure Exhaustion is harsh and hard to remove, however for me the biggest issue with Frenzy is that its benefit are too easily replicated with feats and other game mechanics. The biggest offender here is Polearm Master. It weaponizes your bonus action(the benefit of Frenzy) while being useful outside of Rage. Consider a 5th Berserker and a 5th level Barbarian with PAM wielding a greatsword and glaive respectively, both with an 18 Strength:
Berserker: 3(2d6+4+2) = 39 average damage before considering hit/crit chance. Barbarian: 2(1d10+4+2) + (1d4+4+2) = 31.5 average damage before considering hit/crit chance.
So that is a 7.5 damage lead for the Berserker, great!
Oh wait, our regular Barbarian with PAM doesn't have a subclass. Lets pick the other damage focused Barbarian subclass Path of the Zealot. With Divine Fury they get another 1d6+2 extra damage once on their turn while raging. This brings the PAM barbarian's expected damage up to 37, still 2 points behind the Berserker. So our frenzied Berzerker has a little more than a 5% damage lead. Lets look at these characters at level 20.
Berserker: 3(2d6+7+4) = 54 average damage before considering hit/crit chance. Zealot: 2(1d10+7+4) + (1d4+7+4) + (1d6+10) = 60 average damage before considering hit/crit chance.
Oops. The Zealot is now in the lead by 6 damage and can achieve this damage output an unlimited number of times per day. The Berserker simply can't compete. In terms of damage the Zealot catches up to the Berserker at level 8 and passes them at level 10 because of Divine Fury's scaling. Technically the Berserker should switch to a great axe at level 13 because of Brutal Critical but factoring in critical hit damage doesn't change the overall picture meaningfully. Also factoring in hit chance makes Divine Fury much better because it only needs one of your attacks to hit to proc. This makes Divine Fury very reliable damage against targets with high AC which is also where crits make up a larger percentage of your overall hits.
Also another problem with the Berserker is that they don't get their bonus action attack on the round they Rage because they both use your Bonus Action. Zealot's Divine Fury however can be triggered the same round you Rage which results in the Zealot always having better round 1 damage.
In summary the Berserker is a strong damage dealer from levels 3-10 but is harder to actually use because of the drawback of its core feature. After level 10 though it would almost always be objectively better for the character to be a Zealot than a Berserker.
@Kaboom979: Ah, yes, there is a misunderstanding. There are consequences to using any ability. A wizard using their limited high level spells on turn 3 means they cannot on turn 5. A monk that uses all their ki for stunning strikes and flurry of blows, will have nothing for when they desperately need patient defense. Every player needs to consider the consequences of their actions, irrespective of their class and subclass. That is not to say that all consequences are created equal in frequency or severity.
Sorry Erriku but I looked over your character and your experiences may be a little skewed. Take a look at what a more 'average' Berserker looks like (Rhoc Harde) and tell me this character would think a -5 to all skills isn't a big deal. If you hadn't got lucky rolls and your DM didn't house rule Intimidate then you'd be -1 to intimidate someone instead of +3. Perception -2 instead of +1. Survival -2 instead of +1.
Not saying your fun is bad/wrong but keep in mind that not every table is as gonzo as yours and at those tables berserker has problems. When a class has to rely on out-of-this-world attribute rolls and generous house rules then it is a good bet the class design has a problem.
@Kaboom979: Ah, yes, there is a misunderstanding. There are consequences to using any ability. A wizard using their limited high level spells on turn 3 means they cannot on turn 5. A monk that uses all their ki for stunning strikes and flurry of blows, will have nothing for when they desperately need patient defense. Every player needs to consider the consequences of their actions, irrespective of their class and subclass. That is not to say that all consequences are created equal in frequency or severity.
Sorry Erriku but I looked over your character and your experiences may be a little skewed. Take a look at what a more 'average' Berserker looks like (Rhoc Harde) and tell me this character would think a -5 to all skills isn't a big deal. If you hadn't got lucky rolls and your DM didn't house rule Intimidate then you'd be -1 to intimidate someone instead of +3. Perception -2 instead of +1. Survival -2 instead of +1.
Not saying your fun is bad/wrong but keep in mind that not every table is as gonzo as yours and at those tables berserker has problems. When a class has to rely on out-of-this-world attribute rolls and generous house rules then it is a good bet the class design has a problem.
You are implying that the average player uses standard array. I would question the legitimacy of that claim. That aside, I do not see how that changes much. The simple fact of the matter is that in a live play, barbarians are not running many checks and when they are, it is not usually for hugely important checks. Has anyone’s barbarian run an arcana check for anything other than comedic value ever? Perception checks are going to be handled by the party wisdom caster almost every time. My party has no rogue (barbarian, fighter, cleric, wizard). I often do the traps and yeah, it is often hilariously awful even without the frenzy disadvantage. As I said before, if intimidation does not work, there is always attack. I do not see how this is a problem for someone who is actually playing a barbarian.
My table is RAW-adjacent. There are few deviations from those rules. I did get exceptionally lucky with my rolls, to the point that I am stacked relative to the rest of my party. The problem with my example is not my ability scores though. I think the problem is that there is a gross exaggeration of the deleterious effects of the disadvantage and a surprisingly undervaluing of having an entire extra attack with a d12 weapon. I also think some in this discussion either have not actually played the berserker due to these negative perceptions, or have DMs that are just kind of crap. There is nothing wrong with armchair experts, but I would perhaps find other tables if you are playing a berserker barbarian in a practical way and are still struggling.
At level three I was dropping 2d12+14, which is fantastic at that level. Now I am dropping significantly more at level five. On my next ASI, I am almost certainly going to grab GWM too. I have not once made the claim that the berserker has no problems. What I did say is that these problems are not nearly as bad as it is being made out to be when theory is set aside and people actually play the subclass in a party. As a person playing this subclass, if I could change one thing at all, it would not be the exhaustion. Rather, it would be to make the upcoming Intimidating Presence a bonus action rather than an action. Locking down combat for multiple rounds to keep someone frightened just makes me want to cut them in half instead.
For my part, there have been no real issues with this exhaustion feature and I doubt I would have any real issues even if I removed the houserule with intimidation and rolled somewhere in the mid 70s. My DM is cognizant of the consequences of being a berserker and everyone at my table is trying to have fun. That is not to say that being a berserker is a carefree experience, but the challenges are spread around fairly evenly among the party. It is part of a fulfilling experience with D&D; you take the good with the bad.
No, I have not used frenzy twice between rests before. Much like any subclass’ defining ability, I do not use it just because I have the ability to do so. I try to balance benefit and consequence. In terms of consequences, check disadvantages are really not a big deal in a full party. Almost every single check can be covered by someone else if you are really worried about checks. Because of our houseruling with intimidation, the disadvantage is not even really a problem because my modifier is so high for both athletics and intimidation.
But this is only for those concerned with perfect outcomes every time. Why have a barbarian if you do not want to create problems and then solve them? If I want to roll a check, I do not let disadvantage stop me. Fail an intimidation check and you get to swing the axe. Seems like a win/win for my barbarian.
And so once again we come back to this being easily in the running for worst subclass in the game. For me the biggest irony is that Tasha's gave Rangers what Berserkers need to actually be fun to play.
Yeah maxing your main stat will make you good... That's really not a good metric then as a v. Human polearm master human barb with the same stat line will be doing 1d10 + 1d4 + 14..... Which is 5 points less damage per turn. If you go zealot you add 1d6+4 which gives you 7.5 points of damage back and boom... Now you're doing more damage than the bezerker every fight without taking any exhaustion.
Or say you go bear totem... You trade in 5 points per turn for resistance to all damage (sans psychic)
IMO it's just not worth it to ever play bezerker when you can get 80% of it's benefits with a feat and never have to worry about exhaustion.
You are implying that the average player uses standard array. I would question the legitimacy of that claim. That aside, I do not see how that changes much. The simple fact of the matter is that in a live play, barbarians are not running many checks and when they are, it is not usually for hugely important checks. Has anyone’s barbarian run an arcana check for anything other than comedic value ever? Perception checks are going to be handled by the party wisdom caster almost every time. My party has no rogue (barbarian, fighter, cleric, wizard). I often do the traps and yeah, it is often hilariously awful even without the frenzy disadvantage. As I said before, if intimidation does not work, there is always attack. I do not see how this is a problem for someone who is actually playing a barbarian.
Not implying anything. Just using standard array to reflect a more average set of rolls which I believe is what it is meant to represent. In addition, standard array is what the designers use for playtesting so those stats are helpful for understanding balance. And I would say that barbarians are often in the front of the group. Their durability, danger sense and speed make barbarian great for being first in line. Maybe they are not as good at some skills as the rogue or cleric but a level of exhaustion compounds that.
At level three I was dropping 2d12+14, which is fantastic at that level. Now I am dropping significantly more at level five. On my next ASI, I am almost certainly going to grab GWM too. I have not once made the claim that the berserker has no problems. What I did say is that these problems are not nearly as bad as it is being made out to be when theory is set aside and people actually play the subclass in a party. As a person playing this subclass, if I could change one thing at all, it would not be the exhaustion. Rather, it would be to make the upcoming Intimidating Presence a bonus action rather than an action. Locking down combat for multiple rounds to keep someone frightened just makes me want to cut them in half instead.
As Fangeye pointed out, the damage a berserker delivers is easily duplicated by the zealot without suffering any penalties. And this is just for one combat. If you start thinking about multiple encounters in a day then the damage led a berserker has becomes less and less spectacular. Combine that dwindling damage reward with the sad Intimidating Presence feature (remember at most tables the DC for that will be way lower) and it should give you an idea of the issue folks have with berserker.
For my part, there have been no real issues with this exhaustion feature and I doubt I would have any real issues even if I removed the houserule with intimidation and rolled somewhere in the mid 70s. My DM is cognizant of the consequences of being a berserker and everyone at my table is trying to have fun. That is not to say that being a berserker is a carefree experience, but the challenges are spread around fairly evenly among the party. It is part of a fulfilling experience with D&D; you take the good with the bad.
But this is part of the issue. Each class may have it's strengths and weaknesses but what PC at your table suffers a day of disadvantage for using a class feature? The bad for the berserker is skewed in comparison to any other class. You may think it fun, with your good rolls and DM houserule I might as well, but when talking about rules and features we can't always depend on best case.
I never use rolled stats as an arguement for balance of subclasses because literally any subclass becomes much more viable if you roll crazy stats....any build does. It goes without saying that high stats = better production from your character.
Therefore its a moot point as if its good for zerker its good for literally any subclass in the game and is not worth mentioning as a mechanic for the balance or design of a subclass.
Even then the god stat Zerker is still very bad in comparison to other barb subclasses.....so that is saying something in itself. Its because its mechanic to balancing its features is to make you worse in something else which is terrible design IMO. It is not shared by any other class or subclass with good reason...its a god awful mechanic.
Even if you had fun playing does not make the design good...or balanced. You can have fun while having a terrible build. In fact there is a subgroup of players who purposefully make terrible builds to challenge themselves or to have fun in failure.
I would suggest Zerker for these people but that would literally be the only case in which I would suggest the subclass to anyone.
As Fangeye pointed out, the damage a berserker delivers is easily duplicated by the zealot without suffering any penalties. And this is just for one combat. If you start thinking about multiple encounters in a day then the damage led a berserker has becomes less and less spectacular. Combine that dwindling damage reward with the sad Intimidating Presence feature (remember at most tables the DC for that will be way lower) and it should give you an idea of the issue folks have with berserker.
Fangeye offered a strong analysis, which I do agree with. The zealot is a better subclass overall. The average damage is almost the same at lower levels while using the more consistent, though lower average 2d6 weapons. I do not think anyone is trying to argue that the berserker is better, equal, or more powerful than the zealot, so I am confused why this is the argument you are shifting towards. The way I look at this is that even with the drawbacks of frenzy, the berserker is able to almost match one of the better subclasses available in terms of damage. Could you do better with a zealot? Sure. Not everyone wants to be a zealot though and most still want to have a high damage-dealing option.
I fully agree with you that the Intimidating Presence feature is lackluster. I actually commented on it myself before you raised the issue. The diminishing returns on damage for multiple combat encounters does not come until the fourth frenzy. By the time you are even needing that many frenzies between long rests, you have ways to mitigate and nullify the impact on attack rolls. Again, I do not think you are even attempting to look at this from a live play perspective.
I agree that Intimidating Presence is the biggest let down of the Berserker subclass. Using your action to have a chance at causing the Frightened condition on one creature is bad enough. The fact that the creature might then move out of range or line of sight and still get to use their Action and Bonus Action just makes this feature a player trap. Battlefield control can really swing combats but unless you are in a party of all Barbarians or something that shouldn't be your job. It at least doesn't require you to be raging but I have a hard time picturing a use for Intimidating Presence out of combat that wouldn't be better served by an Intimidation check.
Also I want to add that Zealot winning out over Berserker in terms of damage isn't solely a problem with the Berserker. I feel the Zealot is a little too good at being the damage dealing Barbarian and it overshadows other options. I doubt people think the Beast barbarian is as bad a subclass as Berserker but it suffers the same problem. Its damage focused option of claw attacks has a hard time competing with the Zealot. If your DM allows you to take the Dual Wielder feat and use two-weapon fighting with your claws then like Berserker you are at least in the same ballpark as Zealot, but it is debatable if this is allowable under RAW or not.
Finally keep in mind that not all characters see all tiers of play. If the campaign isn't likely to go beyond level 10 then the Berserker is a much more competitive option.
I never use rolled stats as an arguement for balance of subclasses because literally any subclass becomes much more viable if you roll crazy stats....any build does. It goes without saying that high stats = better production from your character.
Therefore its a moot point as if its good for zerker its good for literally any subclass in the game and is not worth mentioning as a mechanic for the balance or design of a subclass.
Even then the god stat Zerker is still very bad in comparison to other barb subclasses.....so that is saying something in itself. Its because its mechanic to balancing its features is to make you worse in something else which is terrible design IMO. It is not shared by any other class or subclass with good reason...its a god awful mechanic.
Even if you had fun playing does not make the design good...or balanced. You can have fun while having a terrible build. In fact there is a subgroup of players who purposefully make terrible builds to challenge themselves or to have fun in failure.
I would suggest Zerker for these people but that would literally be the only case in which I would suggest the subclass to anyone.
Point of order: rolled stats was never a point I tried to make in my initial arguments. I was drawn into that red herring and added that my Herculean stats do not amount to a significant amount of successful checks. I fail them often - likely just a little less than the average barbarian, berserker or not.
I disagree that the exhaustion is a serious problem as a berserker who deals with it after roughly 2/3 of my encounters. I can see some validity to the complaints that there should be no harmful effects to a subclass though and definitely plan to strap my DM to a chair and force him to read this thread. Why have less when I can have more?
I would like to take the time to voice the opinion that many people would flood these forums with complaints if the exhaustion was actually reduced to merely a chance, because then the realization that having an extra attack is really dang powerful would finally register. Boy would it ever cause problems. In fact, I would expect it to be banned for being overpowered at many tables. I think everyone is missing the forest for the trees here. Or one particularly ugly tree anyway. The balancing took a different form from other subclasses, but the berserker is still extremely imposing as a subclass for what it is designed to do.
It's too easy to get a bonus action attack. GWM will give you a full extra attack on every crit (which happens a lot with reckless attack), and for every killing blow (which again, happens a lot). Polearm master gives you a bonus action attack at will with zero punishment.
"But PAM only rolls a D4 for bonus action damage" - yes, now factor in all those OTHER combat encounters where you're not using Frenzy because all those levels of exhaustion stack. And only 1 level goes away per long rest.
So let's say 3 combat counters. The PAM is using a D4 bonus action attack (plus rage and STR bonus damage) on all attacks, in all encounters. The Berserker is using a full bonus action attack in only 1 encounter - AND still getting punished for it, even if it's a punishment you can live with.
Retaliation is... Just ok. Honestly where you get it it's not very good imo.
A Polearm master barb will already have the chance for off turn attacks thanks to the feat and creatures entering your reach.
You could even take Mobile feat and move after you attack to keep Procing it.
Overall the PAM feat and pretty much any other subclass is just a better option.
Only Battle rager is worse IMO
I agree that it could come in a bit sooner. It would be nice to get that instead of Intimidating Presence honestly. It would come in on the heels of Brutal Critical and just before Relentless Rage.
Again, if you feel that a skewed balance of class features necessarily results in a skewed player experience, you need to seriously evaluate who is playing at your tables. I led my commentary with the admission that even with my stats, there are plenty of failed checks. Therefore, my ability scores are not as big of a determining factor in enjoyment as you seem to think and you are underestimating the significance of an extra attack, both in terms of damage output and enjoyment. Though this is obviously a subjective question raised by the OP, you are fixating on entirely the wrong things in my opinion. I have two consistently awesome ability checks, but I do not use them nearly as often as I use nearly every other check. If your DM is punishing you for choosing a berserker, find a new DM.
Sigh, at this point I think we are talking past each other. One more try.
Class features are tied to the play experience. It's not the only part of a role playing game but it is the 'game' part. If one class/subclass suffers a negative that no other does then it is possible that could be an issue. In a mechanical sense.
If you are failing skills now then getting disadvantage would escalate that. Skill DCs are a static thing. So yes, your high stats make a difference. If you have a 50% chance to get a 10 then you have a 25% chance when you take a -5 to the roll. Just one of many examples. I am glad you are ok with that. I might be too. For a minute. Maybe ten. Not for the rest of the day and night.
You admit that a zealot can out pace a berserker's damage but say I am underestimating the frenzy extra attack. That extra attack is nice but the small amount of extra damage versus the penalty is not worth it. Plenty of other builds can compete with the berserker (I only pointed to the zealot because it was brought up earlier) and keep it up over more combats and without the penalty of even one level of exhaustion.
I am the OP.
I only pointed out your character because I feel that is part of the divide between those who think the berserker sucks versus those who don't. Those who play in games with inflated stats, friendly house rules, and low numbers of daily encounters are not going to feel the pinch of a level of exhaustion. Meanwhile, those of us that play with less inflated stats, few or no house rules, and daily encounters closer to what the DMG recommends feel that exhaustion most keenly.
That seems to be the difference. The further you stray from RAW the less of an issue frenzy is. It doesn't mean that fun is bad. It just means the berserker sucks as bad as I think it does.
Well, maybe we agree that is a personal preference and not a given absolute? I know a lot of players who don't give preference to perception scores and still run very effective characters. A Barbarian with a high Strength and Constitution and a good value in Charisma is a perfectly acceptable build.
I mean, sure if you are ok with having basically no AC, sure.
They could always wear armor, or be a Tortle.
Sadly, rage prohibits heavy armor so sacrificing Dexterity is a big hit for a barbarian and leaves their best AC at 15. And trying to say that only Tortles should play a berserker is a non argument.
Who said “sacrifice” Dex?!? Even a 14 Dex with a Breastplate & Shield is AC 19.
Who said only Tortles should be Berserkers?!? I said it was an option if someone wanted to dump Dex for a Berserker.
You really got an “all or nothing” approach, don’t ya?
I believe the discussion was revolving around favoring Charisma to take advantage of the level 10 berserker feature. My point is that the barbarian is already MAD as all get out. If you use point buy or standard array than it's basically impossible to get your CHA high enough to make Intimidating Presence worth a darn. At least without making huge sacrifices to the stats you need as a barbarian. Even rolling stats would take a huge streak of luck.
And when you say berserkers can 'just wear armor' or be 'tortles' I say that is a poor argument. It is no defense for Intimidating Presence requiring a good CHA which only adds to the MADness of the barbarian.
But your argument was that Barbarians "need" wisdom. And my point is that a Berserker Barbarian doesn't. Even as a MAD character, Berserker Barbarians have two dump-stats; Wisdom and Intelligence. You can prioritize Strength and Constitution and still give them decent Dexterity and Charisma. Are they ever going to be as charismatic as a Bard? Certainly not. But that's okay because a Bard will never be as good with a greataxe.
Theres been some discussion so far about the impact of DIS on ability checks for the berserker after it gets that 1 level of exhaustion. I want to focus on one particular ability: Athletics.
After you finish your Frenzy, you now have disadvantage on Athletics checks, which impacts your ability to act as the party's "battering ram": breaking down doors, hoisting up large objects out of the way, pushing down nameless NPCs, etc. While most of the party can make up for all of your other skill checks (bard for charisma, ranger for wisdom, etc) if you are the only Str-based character in party, then having disadvantage on Athletics will leave the party without the ability to strongarm their way through certain obstacles (or, at least, less likely to succeed).
Now, thankfully, while you are raging you have advantage on Athletics checks; however, due to the disadvantage even then you are just making a flat d20 roll. Now you are less efficient at shoving/grappling enemies. In other words, even Frenzying once makes your rages for the rest of the day a worse than a normal rage.
Of course, if there is another member of the party who can make up for your lost strength (like a paladin or fighter) and if you really dont care about grappling or shoving in combat, then these detriments will hardly impact your game at all. But I do think it is worth noting that taking on that one level of exhaustion makes the berserker worse than other barbs at one of the few skills it is usually expected to be good at.
I strongly disagree. This guaranteed exhaustion makes your character worse for an entire day after a single fight. And sure others can pick up the pieces after. But at that point it’s close to “go watch tv in another room and call me in when it’s a fight”.
I am here for risks and reward. But there is no risk here it’s straight exhaustion. I can’t think of any other subclass that a single use gives disadvantage on every single skill check.
and this isn’t about perfect rolls. This is about fun. I’ve had multiple people play a berserker and they absolutely will not use the frenzy at all in a day unless it’s a final boss. I see it maybe once every 6-10 sessions and frankly at that point any other barb would be better. They want to be able to enjoy things that aren’t just combat too like the rest of us. Exhaustion either needs to be a risk, not a guarantee, or we need a freebie once per day.
What other subclass ability has harsh consequences? The closest thing I can think of is the wild magic sorc's table, but even that is at least a random chance of a bad consequence mixed with a random chance of a benefit.
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Yeah I am trying to think of another subclass that tries the "annoy you to not use it" approach Bezerker does and I can't think of one...
Hence why its poor design as it doesn't even follow trends or balance ideals from any other subclass. If they wanted to use it as a baseline for using abilites that would be fine (Action surge gives fighter exhaustion, Wizards get exhaustion if they run out of slots, Monks get exhaustion for running out of ki, etc....) but they don't and it sits on an island of its own design which makes it worse IMO.
Perhaps I misunderstood your comment, but the two bolded parts of your other comment suggested to me that you felt that your general approach to all subclasses was to "balance the benefits and consequences", thus suggesting that you felt other subclasses had abilities with consequences as well.
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I am surprised this hasn't been brought up but as a Berserker if you want to contribute to non-combat situations while exhausted you can use the Help action. This lets you contribute to skill checks by giving your ally advantage. If your ally was better at the given skill check to begin with then being exhausted had literally no consequences on your ability to contribute to the parties success.
Sure Exhaustion is harsh and hard to remove, however for me the biggest issue with Frenzy is that its benefit are too easily replicated with feats and other game mechanics. The biggest offender here is Polearm Master. It weaponizes your bonus action(the benefit of Frenzy) while being useful outside of Rage. Consider a 5th Berserker and a 5th level Barbarian with PAM wielding a greatsword and glaive respectively, both with an 18 Strength:
Berserker: 3(2d6+4+2) = 39 average damage before considering hit/crit chance.
Barbarian: 2(1d10+4+2) + (1d4+4+2) = 31.5 average damage before considering hit/crit chance.
So that is a 7.5 damage lead for the Berserker, great!
Oh wait, our regular Barbarian with PAM doesn't have a subclass. Lets pick the other damage focused Barbarian subclass Path of the Zealot. With Divine Fury they get another 1d6+2 extra damage once on their turn while raging. This brings the PAM barbarian's expected damage up to 37, still 2 points behind the Berserker. So our frenzied Berzerker has a little more than a 5% damage lead. Lets look at these characters at level 20.
Berserker: 3(2d6+7+4) = 54 average damage before considering hit/crit chance.
Zealot: 2(1d10+7+4) + (1d4+7+4) + (1d6+10) = 60 average damage before considering hit/crit chance.
Oops. The Zealot is now in the lead by 6 damage and can achieve this damage output an unlimited number of times per day. The Berserker simply can't compete. In terms of damage the Zealot catches up to the Berserker at level 8 and passes them at level 10 because of Divine Fury's scaling. Technically the Berserker should switch to a great axe at level 13 because of Brutal Critical but factoring in critical hit damage doesn't change the overall picture meaningfully. Also factoring in hit chance makes Divine Fury much better because it only needs one of your attacks to hit to proc. This makes Divine Fury very reliable damage against targets with high AC which is also where crits make up a larger percentage of your overall hits.
Also another problem with the Berserker is that they don't get their bonus action attack on the round they Rage because they both use your Bonus Action. Zealot's Divine Fury however can be triggered the same round you Rage which results in the Zealot always having better round 1 damage.
In summary the Berserker is a strong damage dealer from levels 3-10 but is harder to actually use because of the drawback of its core feature. After level 10 though it would almost always be objectively better for the character to be a Zealot than a Berserker.
Sorry Erriku but I looked over your character and your experiences may be a little skewed. Take a look at what a more 'average' Berserker looks like (Rhoc Harde) and tell me this character would think a -5 to all skills isn't a big deal. If you hadn't got lucky rolls and your DM didn't house rule Intimidate then you'd be -1 to intimidate someone instead of +3. Perception -2 instead of +1. Survival -2 instead of +1.
Not saying your fun is bad/wrong but keep in mind that not every table is as gonzo as yours and at those tables berserker has problems. When a class has to rely on out-of-this-world attribute rolls and generous house rules then it is a good bet the class design has a problem.
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You are implying that the average player uses standard array. I would question the legitimacy of that claim. That aside, I do not see how that changes much. The simple fact of the matter is that in a live play, barbarians are not running many checks and when they are, it is not usually for hugely important checks. Has anyone’s barbarian run an arcana check for anything other than comedic value ever? Perception checks are going to be handled by the party wisdom caster almost every time. My party has no rogue (barbarian, fighter, cleric, wizard). I often do the traps and yeah, it is often hilariously awful even without the frenzy disadvantage. As I said before, if intimidation does not work, there is always attack. I do not see how this is a problem for someone who is actually playing a barbarian.
My table is RAW-adjacent. There are few deviations from those rules. I did get exceptionally lucky with my rolls, to the point that I am stacked relative to the rest of my party. The problem with my example is not my ability scores though. I think the problem is that there is a gross exaggeration of the deleterious effects of the disadvantage and a surprisingly undervaluing of having an entire extra attack with a d12 weapon. I also think some in this discussion either have not actually played the berserker due to these negative perceptions, or have DMs that are just kind of crap. There is nothing wrong with armchair experts, but I would perhaps find other tables if you are playing a berserker barbarian in a practical way and are still struggling.
At level three I was dropping 2d12+14, which is fantastic at that level. Now I am dropping significantly more at level five. On my next ASI, I am almost certainly going to grab GWM too. I have not once made the claim that the berserker has no problems. What I did say is that these problems are not nearly as bad as it is being made out to be when theory is set aside and people actually play the subclass in a party. As a person playing this subclass, if I could change one thing at all, it would not be the exhaustion. Rather, it would be to make the upcoming Intimidating Presence a bonus action rather than an action. Locking down combat for multiple rounds to keep someone frightened just makes me want to cut them in half instead.
For my part, there have been no real issues with this exhaustion feature and I doubt I would have any real issues even if I removed the houserule with intimidation and rolled somewhere in the mid 70s. My DM is cognizant of the consequences of being a berserker and everyone at my table is trying to have fun. That is not to say that being a berserker is a carefree experience, but the challenges are spread around fairly evenly among the party. It is part of a fulfilling experience with D&D; you take the good with the bad.
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And so once again we come back to this being easily in the running for worst subclass in the game. For me the biggest irony is that Tasha's gave Rangers what Berserkers need to actually be fun to play.
Yeah maxing your main stat will make you good... That's really not a good metric then as a v. Human polearm master human barb with the same stat line will be doing 1d10 + 1d4 + 14..... Which is 5 points less damage per turn. If you go zealot you add 1d6+4 which gives you 7.5 points of damage back and boom... Now you're doing more damage than the bezerker every fight without taking any exhaustion.
Or say you go bear totem... You trade in 5 points per turn for resistance to all damage (sans psychic)
IMO it's just not worth it to ever play bezerker when you can get 80% of it's benefits with a feat and never have to worry about exhaustion.
Not implying anything. Just using standard array to reflect a more average set of rolls which I believe is what it is meant to represent. In addition, standard array is what the designers use for playtesting so those stats are helpful for understanding balance. And I would say that barbarians are often in the front of the group. Their durability, danger sense and speed make barbarian great for being first in line. Maybe they are not as good at some skills as the rogue or cleric but a level of exhaustion compounds that.
As Fangeye pointed out, the damage a berserker delivers is easily duplicated by the zealot without suffering any penalties. And this is just for one combat. If you start thinking about multiple encounters in a day then the damage led a berserker has becomes less and less spectacular. Combine that dwindling damage reward with the sad Intimidating Presence feature (remember at most tables the DC for that will be way lower) and it should give you an idea of the issue folks have with berserker.
But this is part of the issue. Each class may have it's strengths and weaknesses but what PC at your table suffers a day of disadvantage for using a class feature? The bad for the berserker is skewed in comparison to any other class. You may think it fun, with your good rolls and DM houserule I might as well, but when talking about rules and features we can't always depend on best case.
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I never use rolled stats as an arguement for balance of subclasses because literally any subclass becomes much more viable if you roll crazy stats....any build does. It goes without saying that high stats = better production from your character.
Therefore its a moot point as if its good for zerker its good for literally any subclass in the game and is not worth mentioning as a mechanic for the balance or design of a subclass.
Even then the god stat Zerker is still very bad in comparison to other barb subclasses.....so that is saying something in itself. Its because its mechanic to balancing its features is to make you worse in something else which is terrible design IMO. It is not shared by any other class or subclass with good reason...its a god awful mechanic.
Even if you had fun playing does not make the design good...or balanced. You can have fun while having a terrible build. In fact there is a subgroup of players who purposefully make terrible builds to challenge themselves or to have fun in failure.
I would suggest Zerker for these people but that would literally be the only case in which I would suggest the subclass to anyone.
I agree that Intimidating Presence is the biggest let down of the Berserker subclass. Using your action to have a chance at causing the Frightened condition on one creature is bad enough. The fact that the creature might then move out of range or line of sight and still get to use their Action and Bonus Action just makes this feature a player trap. Battlefield control can really swing combats but unless you are in a party of all Barbarians or something that shouldn't be your job. It at least doesn't require you to be raging but I have a hard time picturing a use for Intimidating Presence out of combat that wouldn't be better served by an Intimidation check.
Also I want to add that Zealot winning out over Berserker in terms of damage isn't solely a problem with the Berserker. I feel the Zealot is a little too good at being the damage dealing Barbarian and it overshadows other options. I doubt people think the Beast barbarian is as bad a subclass as Berserker but it suffers the same problem. Its damage focused option of claw attacks has a hard time competing with the Zealot. If your DM allows you to take the Dual Wielder feat and use two-weapon fighting with your claws then like Berserker you are at least in the same ballpark as Zealot, but it is debatable if this is allowable under RAW or not.
Finally keep in mind that not all characters see all tiers of play. If the campaign isn't likely to go beyond level 10 then the Berserker is a much more competitive option.
Retaliation is... Just ok. Honestly where you get it it's not very good imo.
A Polearm master barb will already have the chance for off turn attacks thanks to the feat and creatures entering your reach.
You could even take Mobile feat and move after you attack to keep Procing it.
Overall the PAM feat and pretty much any other subclass is just a better option.
Only Battle rager is worse IMO
It's too easy to get a bonus action attack. GWM will give you a full extra attack on every crit (which happens a lot with reckless attack), and for every killing blow (which again, happens a lot). Polearm master gives you a bonus action attack at will with zero punishment.
"But PAM only rolls a D4 for bonus action damage" - yes, now factor in all those OTHER combat encounters where you're not using Frenzy because all those levels of exhaustion stack. And only 1 level goes away per long rest.
So let's say 3 combat counters. The PAM is using a D4 bonus action attack (plus rage and STR bonus damage) on all attacks, in all encounters. The Berserker is using a full bonus action attack in only 1 encounter - AND still getting punished for it, even if it's a punishment you can live with.
Agreed
Sigh, at this point I think we are talking past each other. One more try.
Class features are tied to the play experience. It's not the only part of a role playing game but it is the 'game' part. If one class/subclass suffers a negative that no other does then it is possible that could be an issue. In a mechanical sense.
If you are failing skills now then getting disadvantage would escalate that. Skill DCs are a static thing. So yes, your high stats make a difference. If you have a 50% chance to get a 10 then you have a 25% chance when you take a -5 to the roll. Just one of many examples. I am glad you are ok with that. I might be too. For a minute. Maybe ten. Not for the rest of the day and night.
You admit that a zealot can out pace a berserker's damage but say I am underestimating the frenzy extra attack. That extra attack is nice but the small amount of extra damage versus the penalty is not worth it. Plenty of other builds can compete with the berserker (I only pointed to the zealot because it was brought up earlier) and keep it up over more combats and without the penalty of even one level of exhaustion.
I am the OP.
I only pointed out your character because I feel that is part of the divide between those who think the berserker sucks versus those who don't. Those who play in games with inflated stats, friendly house rules, and low numbers of daily encounters are not going to feel the pinch of a level of exhaustion. Meanwhile, those of us that play with less inflated stats, few or no house rules, and daily encounters closer to what the DMG recommends feel that exhaustion most keenly.
That seems to be the difference. The further you stray from RAW the less of an issue frenzy is. It doesn't mean that fun is bad. It just means the berserker sucks as bad as I think it does.
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You tell me i should find a different group to play with and I'm condescending?
Good day, sir
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Erriku, as an outsider looking in I interpreted his post to be very amicable. I think you two should bro hug.
But your argument was that Barbarians "need" wisdom. And my point is that a Berserker Barbarian doesn't. Even as a MAD character, Berserker Barbarians have two dump-stats; Wisdom and Intelligence. You can prioritize Strength and Constitution and still give them decent Dexterity and Charisma. Are they ever going to be as charismatic as a Bard? Certainly not. But that's okay because a Bard will never be as good with a greataxe.
Awww yeah!!!
Theres been some discussion so far about the impact of DIS on ability checks for the berserker after it gets that 1 level of exhaustion. I want to focus on one particular ability: Athletics.
After you finish your Frenzy, you now have disadvantage on Athletics checks, which impacts your ability to act as the party's "battering ram": breaking down doors, hoisting up large objects out of the way, pushing down nameless NPCs, etc. While most of the party can make up for all of your other skill checks (bard for charisma, ranger for wisdom, etc) if you are the only Str-based character in party, then having disadvantage on Athletics will leave the party without the ability to strongarm their way through certain obstacles (or, at least, less likely to succeed).
Now, thankfully, while you are raging you have advantage on Athletics checks; however, due to the disadvantage even then you are just making a flat d20 roll. Now you are less efficient at shoving/grappling enemies. In other words, even Frenzying once makes your rages for the rest of the day a worse than a normal rage.
Of course, if there is another member of the party who can make up for your lost strength (like a paladin or fighter) and if you really dont care about grappling or shoving in combat, then these detriments will hardly impact your game at all. But I do think it is worth noting that taking on that one level of exhaustion makes the berserker worse than other barbs at one of the few skills it is usually expected to be good at.
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