Yeah, sure, but the main thing with PAM vs just a greataxe and bonus attack, is the PAM extra attack is much worse than a d12. Anyways like i edited, for some reason I didn't see the whole message so it just didn't come of good.
Anyways, if the PAM takes the same feat, they have used two feats while the berserker only used one so far. In addition the retaliation strike means another attack with a great axe and +10 from great weapon master.
Now, I think the biggest issue on these forums with the berserker is everyone compares to the berserker. And when they do they compare all the other subclasses to the berserker. It's basically like saying Battle master is the worst fighter class because the other fighters gets magic, better crit, unlimited advantage, guns, magic arrows and so on. They don't, they only get one of them. It's the same with the barbarians fortunately.
Yes, its harder to get the resistance from bear, but that goes for the zealot barbarian too, it doesn't have the resistance that bear totem does. Spider climb at will is awesome true, but they don't get the resistance from bear either, and bear totems don't get spiderclimb. Bear totems dont get free revives or spiderclimb. So no matter what you pick, someone will be better at something else, that's kinda the point on subclasses.
And the berserkers main subclass feature is: dishing out damage. And yes, they don't tank as well as a bear totem barbarian, but neither does beast barbarians. Arguably you could say zealots don't either but.. they get revived + that last insane ability that just lets them live forever is kinda tanky. But the point is, if you want to be extra tanky, bear totems are hard to beat.
But damage wise, the only one that of the top of my hat comes closest is the zealot barbarian and considering their kinda tankiness they are one of the better subclasses in that sense. Still cant spiderclimb tho :p
A berserker might not deal this massive damage every battle, but the battles that count it will. And it will do it well. The best use is with a greataxe, because any potential crit benefits more from extra d12's than a few d6's. The amount of attacks, up to 4, with great weapon master is better than the others.
Also, there's one more point that's overlooked a lot. Mindless rage. You can't be charmed or frightened during your rage. It might not come up often but when you face that vampire lord, lich or even mind flayer, all those zealots, beast barbarians and totem warriors will come up so short it's not even funny.
In a game with features like sneak attack, martial die, smites, and upcast spells, the difference between a full ba attack and a PAM ba attack is not that overwhelming. Especially since PAM can be used every single combat in comparison to the limitations on frenzied rage, which is the real point of the comparison.
And the comparison to the other Barb subclasses is also just that: they get their 3rd level ability every time they rage with no need to ration it to avoid a penalty.
And the thing about damage being reserved for an important fight actually goes both ways. Every fight leading up to the important encounter, the beserker is fighting with a hand behind its back, so action economy means the whole party is spending more resources to get to the big encounter than if the beserker was any other subclass with PAM or another bonus action attack.
So the limited uses for Frenzy is already drawback enough. It should just have a "per long rest" pool instead of an annoying punishment mechanic.
No one thinks Mindless rage is bad, but to cover for the drawbacks of Frenzy and the 10th level ability is asking a lot. Also, there are some annoying loopholes to Mindless Rage, like "why would you character rage if they are charmed by the only enemy they can see?" or "you aren't free to intentionally break out of Suggestion's effect." So its really good, but shouldn't be over hyped.
Yeah, sure, but the main thing with PAM vs just a greataxe and bonus attack, is the PAM extra attack is much worse than a d12. Anyways like i edited, for some reason I didn't see the whole message so it just didn't come of good.
Anyways, if the PAM takes the same feat, they have used two feats while the berserker only used one so far. In addition the retaliation strike means another attack with a great axe and +10 from great weapon master.
Now, I think the biggest issue on these forums with the berserker is everyone compares to the berserker. And when they do they compare all the other subclasses to the berserker. It's basically like saying Battle master is the worst fighter class because the other fighters gets magic, better crit, unlimited advantage, guns, magic arrows and so on. They don't, they only get one of them. It's the same with the barbarians fortunately.
Yes, its harder to get the resistance from bear, but that goes for the zealot barbarian too, it doesn't have the resistance that bear totem does. Spider climb at will is awesome true, but they don't get the resistance from bear either, and bear totems don't get spiderclimb. Bear totems dont get free revives or spiderclimb. So no matter what you pick, someone will be better at something else, that's kinda the point on subclasses.
And the berserkers main subclass feature is: dishing out damage. And yes, they don't tank as well as a bear totem barbarian, but neither does beast barbarians. Arguably you could say zealots don't either but.. they get revived + that last insane ability that just lets them live forever is kinda tanky. But the point is, if you want to be extra tanky, bear totems are hard to beat.
But damage wise, the only one that of the top of my hat comes closest is the zealot barbarian and considering their kinda tankiness they are one of the better subclasses in that sense. Still cant spiderclimb tho :p
A berserker might not deal this massive damage every battle, but the battles that count it will. And it will do it well. The best use is with a greataxe, because any potential crit benefits more from extra d12's than a few d6's. The amount of attacks, up to 4, with great weapon master is better than the others.
Also, there's one more point that's overlooked a lot. Mindless rage. You can't be charmed or frightened during your rage. It might not come up often but when you face that vampire lord, lich or even mind flayer, all those zealots, beast barbarians and totem warriors will come up so short it's not even funny.
In a game with features like sneak attack, martial die, smites, and upcast spells, the difference between a full ba attack and a PAM ba attack is not that overwhelming. Especially since PAM can be used every single combat in comparison to the limitations on frenzied rage, which is the real point of the comparison.
And the comparison to the other Barb subclasses is also just that: they get their 3rd level ability every time they rage with no need to ration it to avoid a penalty.
And the thing about damage being reserved for an important fight actually goes both ways. Every fight leading up to the important encounter, the beserker is fighting with a hand behind its back, so action economy means the whole party is spending more resources to get to the big encounter than if the beserker was any other subclass with PAM or another bonus action attack.
So the limited uses for Frenzy is already drawback enough. It should just have a "per long rest" pool instead of an annoying punishment mechanic.
No one thinks Mindless rage is bad, but to cover for the drawbacks of Frenzy and the 10th level ability is asking a lot. Also, there are some annoying loopholes to Mindless Rage, like "why would you character rage if they are charmed by the only enemy they can see?" or "you aren't free to intentionally break out of Suggestion's effect." So its really good, but shouldn't be over hyped.
Full on agree here....
The fact that a feat approximates 83% of your main rage feature is fine.... Unless that feature also has you take exhaustion.
For someone who didn't want to use the traditional Frenzy feature, would a simple and elegant solution just be to let them have the Horde Breaker feature from the Hunter Ranger?
Horde Breaker:
Once on each of your turns when you make a weapon attack, you can make another attack with the same weapon against a different creature that is within 5 feet of the original target and within range of your weapon.
Pros: Doesn't depend on your rage, works with Savage Attack, still fulfills the flavor of a berserk unleashing a flurry of attacks.
Cons: Is useless in a fight with only one enemy, the bonus attack must be made against a different target. Both of these basically remove your ability to "melt" big targets
Edit:
I decided to take my idea a step further and write up two optional features for the Berserker Barbarian: one which replaces Frenzy (Horde Breaker) and one which would just be an additional feature which I think fits the theme of the Berserker (although could make it more powerful than it needs to be. Let me know what you think
Berserker’s Style
3rd-level Berserker feature
Berserkers attack relentlessly, favoring either powerful two-handed weapons or a whirlwind of attacks using one-handed weapons. Starting at 3rd level, you adopt one of the following fighting styles: Great Weapon Fighting or Two-Weapon Fighting
While raging, you gain the following enhancements to your chosen fighting style:
Great Weapon Fighting: When you reroll a damage die using this fighting style, if you roll a 1 you can treat it as a 2 instead.
Two Weapon Fighting: You can use Two-Weapon Fighting even when the one-handed melee weapons you are wielding aren’t Light. When you first enter your rage, you can draw a one-handed weapon as part of your bonus action.
Horde Breaker
3rd-level Berserker feature, which replaces the Frenzy feature
Once on each of your turns when you make a weapon attack, you can make another attack with the same weapon against a different creature that is within 5 feet of the original target and within range of your weapon.
For someone who didn't want to use the traditional Frenzy feature, would a simple and elegant solution just be to let them have the Horde Breaker feature from the Hunter Ranger.
Horde Breaker:
Once on each of your turns when you make a weapon attack, you can make another attack with the same weapon against a different creature that is within 5 feet of the original target and within range of your weapon.
Pros: Doesn't depend on your rage, practically doubles your number of attacks whenever there's two creatures standing next to each other, works with Savage Attack, still fulfills the flavor of a berserk unleashing a flurry of attacks.
Cons: Is useless in a fight with only one enemy, all of the bonus attacks must be made against a different target. Both of these basically remove your ability to "melt" big targets
Thats a pretty elegant solution. Not broken, but situationally strong.
Yeah, sure, but the main thing with PAM vs just a greataxe and bonus attack, is the PAM extra attack is much worse than a d12. Anyways like i edited, for some reason I didn't see the whole message so it just didn't come of good.
Anyways, if the PAM takes the same feat, they have used two feats while the berserker only used one so far. In addition the retaliation strike means another attack with a great axe and +10 from great weapon master.
Now, I think the biggest issue on these forums with the berserker is everyone compares to the berserker. And when they do they compare all the other subclasses to the berserker. It's basically like saying Battle master is the worst fighter class because the other fighters gets magic, better crit, unlimited advantage, guns, magic arrows and so on. They don't, they only get one of them. It's the same with the barbarians fortunately.
Yes, its harder to get the resistance from bear, but that goes for the zealot barbarian too, it doesn't have the resistance that bear totem does. Spider climb at will is awesome true, but they don't get the resistance from bear either, and bear totems don't get spiderclimb. Bear totems dont get free revives or spiderclimb. So no matter what you pick, someone will be better at something else, that's kinda the point on subclasses.
And the berserkers main subclass feature is: dishing out damage. And yes, they don't tank as well as a bear totem barbarian, but neither does beast barbarians. Arguably you could say zealots don't either but.. they get revived + that last insane ability that just lets them live forever is kinda tanky. But the point is, if you want to be extra tanky, bear totems are hard to beat.
But damage wise, the only one that of the top of my hat comes closest is the zealot barbarian and considering their kinda tankiness they are one of the better subclasses in that sense. Still cant spiderclimb tho :p
A berserker might not deal this massive damage every battle, but the battles that count it will. And it will do it well. The best use is with a greataxe, because any potential crit benefits more from extra d12's than a few d6's. The amount of attacks, up to 4, with great weapon master is better than the others.
Also, there's one more point that's overlooked a lot. Mindless rage. You can't be charmed or frightened during your rage. It might not come up often but when you face that vampire lord, lich or even mind flayer, all those zealots, beast barbarians and totem warriors will come up so short it's not even funny.
The difference between a d4 and a d12 is 4 points of a damage on a hit. When you account for misses that's about 2-3 more damage (depending on the target's AC) per round. Not needing a feat to get it, that's a fair point. Still the punishment is far too severe in my opinion, but that's subjective.
My problem with the berserker is this. You pick it for a reason. I pick an evoker wizard, I want to blast. I pick a battle master fighter, I want to use maneuvers. I pick a moon Druid, I want to wildshape.
when I pick a berserker I want to go in and truly frenzy. I want to go in and do more attacks and damage than the other classes. I want to feel like I CAN use these features and not be punished for it. Exhaustion is crippling. It’s not fun. And it’s not even something you can try to avoid. There is no saving throw. There is no free frenzy a day. It’s not high risk high reward. And sure you can save your big frenzy for when you need it but if you aren’t going to make regular use of your class… why not just take one you are.
berserkers need one of a few things. At least one freebie a day. And then a con save for any after that. It won’t break anything and there are already ways to get bonus action attacks fairly easily so…
if they don’t want to do that. Make their rage damage bigger. Double proficiency rage damage each hit. Or maybe you crit on an 18-20. Make that exhaustion something WORTH getting. Because anyone with PAM or GWF can get a bonus attack.
it’s gotta be one or the other. A freebie. Or a nasty buff. Because the key problem with the berserker is it isn’t fun to play with exhaustion as a punishment for your class with no change to avoid it
I actually had a great time playing a Berserker Barbarian with simple adjustments from our DM.
1. You get the bonus action attack in the same round you frenzied
2. You could ignite a Frenzy even after entering in regular Rage without burning more resources
This two simple fixes allowed my character to plan better his Frenzies and I must admit 2 levels of Exhaustion were not that bad. Annoying? Definitely, but totally manageable. This means Frenzy for at least 2 or 3 encounters (considering the last one before taking a long rest).
And boy… 3 attacks with advantage using GWM were no joke. And completely ignoring charming and fear felt so good. I got a Ring of Free Action and my character was basically immune against most of the crippling effects that neutralizes melee martials.
Maybe my DM was lenient, but my experience as a Berserker was quite good.
I actually had a great time playing a Berserker Barbarian with simple adjustments from our DM.
1. You get the bonus action attack in the same round you frenzied
2. You could ignite a Frenzy even after entering in regular Rage without burning more resources
This two simple fixes allowed my character to plan better his Frenzies and I must admit 2 levels of Exhaustion were not that bad. Annoying? Definitely, but totally manageable. This means Frenzy for at least 2 or 3 encounters (considering the last one before taking a long rest).
And boy… 3 attacks with advantage using GWM were no joke. And completely ignoring charming and fear felt so good. I got a Ring of Free Action and my character was basically immune against most of the crippling effects that neutralizes melee martials.
Maybe my DM was lenient, but my experience as a Berserker was quite good.
The main point I take away here is that you had a good time....but it took adjustments from your DM to make it so.
As written the subclass is not very good design IMO.
'This two simple fixes allowed my character to plan better his Frenzies and I must admit 2 levels of Exhaustion were not that bad. Annoying? Definitely, but totally manageable. This means Frenzy for at least 2 or 3 encounters (considering the last one before taking a long rest).'
I have seen this sentiment so much in this thread it makes me wonder what kind of games people play. I know that most groups don't do the full adventuring day suggested by the DMG but still. No encounters during watches? Every encounter where frenzy is used is perfectly timed to hit the BBEG? No skills needed after a frenzy? No need to run across the field of combat to get in the mix?
When I hear '2 levels of Exhaustion were not that bad' it makes me feel like the game play at that table is just one or two encounters a day, little to no wrap up and done. Not trying to say that fun is bad/wrong but I fail to see how a player would say that if they faced 5-8 encounters a day.
'This two simple fixes allowed my character to plan better his Frenzies and I must admit 2 levels of Exhaustion were not that bad. Annoying? Definitely, but totally manageable. This means Frenzy for at least 2 or 3 encounters (considering the last one before taking a long rest).'
I have seen this sentiment so much in this thread it makes me wonder what kind of games people play. I know that most groups don't do the full adventuring day suggested by the DMG but still. No encounters during watches? Every encounter where frenzy is used is perfectly timed to hit the BBEG? No skills needed after a frenzy? No need to run across the field of combat to get in the mix?
When I hear '2 levels of Exhaustion were not that bad' it makes me feel like the game play at that table is just one or two encounters a day, little to no wrap up and done. Not trying to say that fun is bad/wrong but I fail to see how a player would say that if they faced 5-8 encounters a day.
Yeah, the number of encounters suggested by the DGM actually seems pretty rare, especially since people seem to play shorter 2 or 3 hour sessions these days.
'This two simple fixes allowed my character to plan better his Frenzies and I must admit 2 levels of Exhaustion were not that bad. Annoying? Definitely, but totally manageable. This means Frenzy for at least 2 or 3 encounters (considering the last one before taking a long rest).'
I have seen this sentiment so much in this thread it makes me wonder what kind of games people play. I know that most groups don't do the full adventuring day suggested by the DMG but still. No encounters during watches? Every encounter where frenzy is used is perfectly timed to hit the BBEG? No skills needed after a frenzy? No need to run across the field of combat to get in the mix?
When I hear '2 levels of Exhaustion were not that bad' it makes me feel like the game play at that table is just one or two encounters a day, little to no wrap up and done. Not trying to say that fun is bad/wrong but I fail to see how a player would say that if they faced 5-8 encounters a day.
Agreed. Also, you do need to continually make melee attacks to keep up your rage. Also also, let's say you have 2 levels of exhaustion then take a long rest. You start the next day with 1. Use it twice? Now you have 3. Take a long rest, and you start the next day with 2. This is not sustainable. It blows my mind that WoC have not fixed the Berserker.
Sorry for the necro, but I had a thought. Would people be more okay with Frenzy as it already is IF berserkers also got an ability that scaled with levels of exhaustion? Something that makes walking around with a few levels of exhaustion almost sound appealing (although not removing the detriments). I am thinking some sort of bonus, either to help offset the detriments of exhaustion a bit OR to double down on how attack-focused the subclass is. Ideally, it would also be a passive bonus that does not depend on raging. Thoughts?
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Sorry for the necro, but I had a thought. Would people be more okay with Frenzy as it already is IF berserkers also got an ability that scaled with levels of exhaustion? Something that makes walking around with a few levels of exhaustion almost sound appealing (although not removing the detriments). I am thinking some sort of bonus, either to help offset the detriments of exhaustion a bit OR to double down on how attack-focused the subclass is. Ideally, it would also be a passive bonus that does not depend on raging. Thoughts?
I had an idea like this that would do away with the bonus action attack and exhaustion, but would allow the berserker to trade health for additional damage. If its meant to be a class that can kill itself through sheer effort, sacrificing health for some huge power up to go out in a blaze of glory sounds really anime.
Another idea for something like this might just be that levels of exhaustion would increase the bonus damage from rage. Maybe even exponentially (so far as exhaustion levels exist anyways). So it starts off as your rage bonus again when you frenzy with one level of exhaustion, but multiplies by 2 for each additional level of exhaustion. That could be an interesting mechanic to manage and try to make full use of.
Sorry for the necro, but I had a thought. Would people be more okay with Frenzy as it already is IF berserkers also got an ability that scaled with levels of exhaustion? Something that makes walking around with a few levels of exhaustion almost sound appealing (although not removing the detriments). I am thinking some sort of bonus, either to help offset the detriments of exhaustion a bit OR to double down on how attack-focused the subclass is. Ideally, it would also be a passive bonus that does not depend on raging. Thoughts?
Not to me, no. My issue with the subclass is this:
Anyone playing a character with a class that doesn't get its subclass until 3rd level is in the unfortunate situation of playing a nearly carbon copy of every other character with the same class for the first two levels. I was once in the position where I found out another player and I were both planning to play an Artificer in the same campaign. So as to avoid this particular issue I switched to a Fighter two days before Session 1. (It turned out that he also wanted to avoid it and switched to a Cleric unbeknownst to me.) It also turned out that the people who had been wishywashy about their PCs but had been talking Rogue & Warlock also switched last minute… to both play Fighters. Now, I was planning to go Battle Master, another was gonna go Eldritch Knight and the third Echo Knight, so okay… right? That group met monthly, and after four sessions we finally hit 2nd level. At that rate it would have been an entire year when the three of us would have been pretty darned samesame, despite being different races and weapons. 😵💫
Had the one played a Fiendlock like she said she would still have been very different than the GOOlock who was also in the party. Had the other guy and I both played Artificers it woulda been better because of infusions and spell selections at least. But us three fighters were far more alike than not. Now, it’s particularly bad when they’re in the same party, but even without that it’s obvious from the start of one campaign to another unless it’s a single, very long campaign and not a series of Tier-1 non sequitur adventures that I know are often popular. The only way it could have been worse is if, instead of Fighter, we had all chosen Monk, Rogue, or Barbarian because they have even less to differentiate themselves from one another, at least Fighters get Fighting Styles and great weapon variety. Rogues and Monks less so, and when was the last time you saw a Barbarian that didn’t swing an axe for the first two levels?!?
Now, as a DM, I personally try to get PCs from 1st to 3rd level in about three to four sessions (I hear that’s fast), and we play weekly, so that would speed things up too, but I know that’s not common for lots of folks. Even at that accelerated pace that’s still three weeks to a month of people playing mechanically nigh-identical characters should two choose the same class, like Barbarian. So finally, 3rd level comes and you get that one feature that finally lets your Barbarian feel different from all the rest, and you pick Berserker. Great!! That is until the brass ring you were so excited for half kills you the ver next adventuring day because ya used it all of twice… in a day with (according to the DMG) six to eight encounters in it. If ya use yer shiny new subclass as little as 25% — 33.33% of the time it can still kill your PC in under a week. It’s literally the only subclass in the game that can kill your PC with the very first feature it gives you… and that’s the one they give out for free to entice people to play D&D. (No bueno.)
Look at every other “inferior” subclass:
Assassin- Only useful one round per fight, but you can still potentially use it every fight and not die from it.
Da Champ*- If you roll like my one friend you might Crit as often as 3 times per fight and it won’t kill you other than out of boredom.
Four Elements- Given the expected rests : encounters ratio you’ll get the same 25% — 33.33% as the Berserker and no more risk than the Assassin or Champ.
Beast Master (pre Tasha’s)- Your companion be fawked, but you can get a new one.
Eldritch Knight*- Doesn’t suck at all until Tier-3.
PDK*- Other than dying from embarrassment that you chose it, you’ll be fine.
Wild Magic- I’ll pro’ly kill your character you show up with it at my table but the subclass won’t.
Evoker- The worst Wizard is still an effing Wizard.
Life Domain- It’s called the “Life” Domain, ‘Nuff said.
Alchemist- The only really bad part of this is the lack of control, nothing more. If one can work with it it really isn’t as bad as all that.
Oath of Redemption- Quite litterally the scariest part of this subclass is breaking your oath.
*(Wow Fighters got some duds this edition.)
The only one that can kill itself just by using its own feature is Berserker… and that’s the one they give to new players for free…? 😳 🤦♂️ 😞
To me, the only improvement is to make that feature less punishing to use twice in the same day.
All fair, lol. I also would probably move away from Frenzy as written if someone wanted to play a Berserker in my campaign (my current strategy is just give them a fighting style and Horde Breaker), but this other idea was just a vague solution that popped into my head that seemed like it could offer a buff without changing as much as some other suggestions.
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Oh, it’s a good idea I suppose, I was just offering one man’s opinion. This is my fix for the Berserker:
3rd-level Path of the Berserker (FIFY) feature
You can go into a frenzy when you rage as part of the same bonus action, or while you are raging (no action required). While in a frenzy, you ignore the effects of Exhaustion, and can spend a bonus action on each of your turns to make a single melee weapon attack. When your rage ends, so does your frenzy.
Whenever you use this feature more than once between long rests, at the end of each use after the first you gain one level of Exhaustion.
That’s one free use per day, exhausting after the subsequent ones, and it at least ignores its own penalties while ya use it. Yeah, that can tempt people into trouble, but we cannot protect them from themselves at that point, and it becomes a form of resource management because at least the rewards are commensurate with the risk.
Someone else recently suggested they get an inverse of the penalties from their current level of exhaustion while frenzied. For example, if ye frenzy with 3levels of exhaustion then while frenzied you would ignore the exhaustion and get Advantage on all Attacks, Checks, and Saves & your speed would double. I felt that a bit much, but definitely interesting.
I’ve also seen solutions as simple as giving them +50% Rage Damage while Frenzied; and just making Frenzy a Short Rest mechanic.
Oh, it’s a good idea I suppose, I was just offering one man’s opinion. This is my fix for the Berserker:
3rd-level Path of the Berserker (FIFY) feature
You can go into a frenzy when you rage as part of the same bonus action, or while you are raging (no action required). While in a frenzy, you ignore the effects of Exhaustion, and can spend a bonus action on each of your turns to make a single melee weapon attack. When your rage ends, so does your frenzy.
Whenever you use this feature more than once between long rests, at the end of each use after the first you gain one level of Exhaustion.
That’s one free use per day, exhausting after the subsequent ones, and it at least ignores its own penalties while ya use it. Yeah, that can tempt people into trouble, but we cannot protect them from themselves at that point, and it becomes a form of resource management because at least the rewards are commensurate with the risk.
Someone else recently suggested they get an inverse of the penalties from their current level of exhaustion while frenzied. For example, if ye frenzy with 3levels of exhaustion then while frenzied you would ignore the exhaustion and get Advantage on all Attacks, Checks, and Saves & your speed would double. I felt that a bit much, but definitely interesting.
I’ve also seen solutions as simple as giving them +50% Rage Damage while Frenzied; and just making Frenzy a Short Rest mechanic.
All good (or at least interesting) ideas for sure.
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Oh, it’s a good idea I suppose, I was just offering one man’s opinion. This is my fix for the Berserker:
3rd-level Path of the Berserker (FIFY) feature
You can go into a frenzy when you rage as part of the same bonus action, or while you are raging (no action required). While in a frenzy, you ignore the effects of Exhaustion, and can spend a bonus action on each of your turns to make a single melee weapon attack. When your rage ends, so does your frenzy.
Whenever you use this feature more than once between long rests, at the end of each use after the first you gain one level of Exhaustion.
That’s one free use per day, exhausting after the subsequent ones, and it at least ignores its own penalties while ya use it. Yeah, that can tempt people into trouble, but we cannot protect them from themselves at that point, and it becomes a form of resource management because at least the rewards are commensurate with the risk.
Someone else recently suggested they get an inverse of the penalties from their current level of exhaustion while frenzied. For example, if ye frenzy with 3levels of exhaustion then while frenzied you would ignore the exhaustion and get Advantage on all Attacks, Checks, and Saves & your speed would double. I felt that a bit much, but definitely interesting.
I’ve also seen solutions as simple as giving them +50% Rage Damage while Frenzied; and just making Frenzy a Short Rest mechanic.
All good (or at least interesting) ideas for sure.
I like the first suggestion the most as its simple and gives you a way to ignore the exhaustion during rage which still incurs a cost but at least lets you be effective during rage.
In a game with features like sneak attack, martial die, smites, and upcast spells, the difference between a full ba attack and a PAM ba attack is not that overwhelming. Especially since PAM can be used every single combat in comparison to the limitations on frenzied rage, which is the real point of the comparison.
And the comparison to the other Barb subclasses is also just that: they get their 3rd level ability every time they rage with no need to ration it to avoid a penalty.
And the thing about damage being reserved for an important fight actually goes both ways. Every fight leading up to the important encounter, the beserker is fighting with a hand behind its back, so action economy means the whole party is spending more resources to get to the big encounter than if the beserker was any other subclass with PAM or another bonus action attack.
So the limited uses for Frenzy is already drawback enough. It should just have a "per long rest" pool instead of an annoying punishment mechanic.
No one thinks Mindless rage is bad, but to cover for the drawbacks of Frenzy and the 10th level ability is asking a lot. Also, there are some annoying loopholes to Mindless Rage, like "why would you character rage if they are charmed by the only enemy they can see?" or "you aren't free to intentionally break out of Suggestion's effect." So its really good, but shouldn't be over hyped.
Full on agree here....
The fact that a feat approximates 83% of your main rage feature is fine.... Unless that feature also has you take exhaustion.
Coming back to this really quick.
For someone who didn't want to use the traditional Frenzy feature, would a simple and elegant solution just be to let them have the Horde Breaker feature from the Hunter Ranger?
Horde Breaker:
Once on each of your turns when you make a weapon attack, you can make another attack with the same weapon against a different creature that is within 5 feet of the original target and within range of your weapon.
Pros: Doesn't depend on your rage, works with Savage Attack, still fulfills the flavor of a berserk unleashing a flurry of attacks.
Cons: Is useless in a fight with only one enemy, the bonus attack must be made against a different target. Both of these basically remove your ability to "melt" big targets
Edit:
I decided to take my idea a step further and write up two optional features for the Berserker Barbarian: one which replaces Frenzy (Horde Breaker) and one which would just be an additional feature which I think fits the theme of the Berserker (although could make it more powerful than it needs to be. Let me know what you think
Berserker’s Style
3rd-level Berserker feature
Berserkers attack relentlessly, favoring either powerful two-handed weapons or a whirlwind of attacks using one-handed weapons. Starting at 3rd level, you adopt one of the following fighting styles: Great Weapon Fighting or Two-Weapon Fighting
While raging, you gain the following enhancements to your chosen fighting style:
Great Weapon Fighting: When you reroll a damage die using this fighting style, if you roll a 1 you can treat it as a 2 instead.
Two Weapon Fighting: You can use Two-Weapon Fighting even when the one-handed melee weapons you are wielding aren’t Light. When you first enter your rage, you can draw a one-handed weapon as part of your bonus action.
Horde Breaker
3rd-level Berserker feature, which replaces the Frenzy feature
Once on each of your turns when you make a weapon attack, you can make another attack with the same weapon against a different creature that is within 5 feet of the original target and within range of your weapon.
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Thats a pretty elegant solution. Not broken, but situationally strong.
I like it as an option for sure....I think that I still like the "ignore exhaustion while raging" makes it very much playable too
The difference between a d4 and a d12 is 4 points of a damage on a hit. When you account for misses that's about 2-3 more damage (depending on the target's AC) per round. Not needing a feat to get it, that's a fair point. Still the punishment is far too severe in my opinion, but that's subjective.
My problem with the berserker is this. You pick it for a reason. I pick an evoker wizard, I want to blast. I pick a battle master fighter, I want to use maneuvers. I pick a moon Druid, I want to wildshape.
when I pick a berserker I want to go in and truly frenzy. I want to go in and do more attacks and damage than the other classes. I want to feel like I CAN use these features and not be punished for it. Exhaustion is crippling. It’s not fun. And it’s not even something you can try to avoid. There is no saving throw. There is no free frenzy a day. It’s not high risk high reward. And sure you can save your big frenzy for when you need it but if you aren’t going to make regular use of your class… why not just take one you are.
berserkers need one of a few things. At least one freebie a day. And then a con save for any after that. It won’t break anything and there are already ways to get bonus action attacks fairly easily so…
if they don’t want to do that. Make their rage damage bigger. Double proficiency rage damage each hit. Or maybe you crit on an 18-20. Make that exhaustion something WORTH getting. Because anyone with PAM or GWF can get a bonus attack.
it’s gotta be one or the other. A freebie. Or a nasty buff. Because the key problem with the berserker is it isn’t fun to play with exhaustion as a punishment for your class with no change to avoid it
I actually had a great time playing a Berserker Barbarian with simple adjustments from our DM.
1. You get the bonus action attack in the same round you frenzied
2. You could ignite a Frenzy even after entering in regular Rage without burning more resources
This two simple fixes allowed my character to plan better his Frenzies and I must admit 2 levels of Exhaustion were not that bad. Annoying? Definitely, but totally manageable. This means Frenzy for at least 2 or 3 encounters (considering the last one before taking a long rest).
And boy… 3 attacks with advantage using GWM were no joke. And completely ignoring charming and fear felt so good. I got a Ring of Free Action and my character was basically immune against most of the crippling effects that neutralizes melee martials.
Maybe my DM was lenient, but my experience as a Berserker was quite good.
The main point I take away here is that you had a good time....but it took adjustments from your DM to make it so.
As written the subclass is not very good design IMO.
I have seen this sentiment so much in this thread it makes me wonder what kind of games people play. I know that most groups don't do the full adventuring day suggested by the DMG but still. No encounters during watches? Every encounter where frenzy is used is perfectly timed to hit the BBEG? No skills needed after a frenzy? No need to run across the field of combat to get in the mix?
When I hear '2 levels of Exhaustion were not that bad' it makes me feel like the game play at that table is just one or two encounters a day, little to no wrap up and done. Not trying to say that fun is bad/wrong but I fail to see how a player would say that if they faced 5-8 encounters a day.
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Yeah, the number of encounters suggested by the DGM actually seems pretty rare, especially since people seem to play shorter 2 or 3 hour sessions these days.
Agreed. Also, you do need to continually make melee attacks to keep up your rage. Also also, let's say you have 2 levels of exhaustion then take a long rest. You start the next day with 1. Use it twice? Now you have 3. Take a long rest, and you start the next day with 2. This is not sustainable. It blows my mind that WoC have not fixed the Berserker.
Sorry for the necro, but I had a thought. Would people be more okay with Frenzy as it already is IF berserkers also got an ability that scaled with levels of exhaustion? Something that makes walking around with a few levels of exhaustion almost sound appealing (although not removing the detriments). I am thinking some sort of bonus, either to help offset the detriments of exhaustion a bit OR to double down on how attack-focused the subclass is. Ideally, it would also be a passive bonus that does not depend on raging. Thoughts?
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I had an idea like this that would do away with the bonus action attack and exhaustion, but would allow the berserker to trade health for additional damage. If its meant to be a class that can kill itself through sheer effort, sacrificing health for some huge power up to go out in a blaze of glory sounds really anime.
Another idea for something like this might just be that levels of exhaustion would increase the bonus damage from rage. Maybe even exponentially (so far as exhaustion levels exist anyways). So it starts off as your rage bonus again when you frenzy with one level of exhaustion, but multiplies by 2 for each additional level of exhaustion. That could be an interesting mechanic to manage and try to make full use of.
Not to me, no. My issue with the subclass is this:
Anyone playing a character with a class that doesn't get its subclass until 3rd level is in the unfortunate situation of playing a nearly carbon copy of every other character with the same class for the first two levels. I was once in the position where I found out another player and I were both planning to play an Artificer in the same campaign. So as to avoid this particular issue I switched to a Fighter two days before Session 1. (It turned out that he also wanted to avoid it and switched to a Cleric unbeknownst to me.) It also turned out that the people who had been wishywashy about their PCs but had been talking Rogue & Warlock also switched last minute… to both play Fighters. Now, I was planning to go Battle Master, another was gonna go Eldritch Knight and the third Echo Knight, so okay… right? That group met monthly, and after four sessions we finally hit 2nd level. At that rate it would have been an entire year when the three of us would have been pretty darned samesame, despite being different races and weapons. 😵💫
Had the one played a Fiendlock like she said she would still have been very different than the GOOlock who was also in the party. Had the other guy and I both played Artificers it woulda been better because of infusions and spell selections at least. But us three fighters were far more alike than not. Now, it’s particularly bad when they’re in the same party, but even without that it’s obvious from the start of one campaign to another unless it’s a single, very long campaign and not a series of Tier-1 non sequitur adventures that I know are often popular. The only way it could have been worse is if, instead of Fighter, we had all chosen Monk, Rogue, or Barbarian because they have even less to differentiate themselves from one another, at least Fighters get Fighting Styles and great weapon variety. Rogues and Monks less so, and when was the last time you saw a Barbarian that didn’t swing an axe for the first two levels?!?
Now, as a DM, I personally try to get PCs from 1st to 3rd level in about three to four sessions (I hear that’s fast), and we play weekly, so that would speed things up too, but I know that’s not common for lots of folks. Even at that accelerated pace that’s still three weeks to a month of people playing mechanically nigh-identical characters should two choose the same class, like Barbarian. So finally, 3rd level comes and you get that one feature that finally lets your Barbarian feel different from all the rest, and you pick Berserker. Great!! That is until the brass ring you were so excited for half kills you the ver next adventuring day because ya used it all of twice… in a day with (according to the DMG) six to eight encounters in it. If ya use yer shiny new subclass as little as 25% — 33.33% of the time it can still kill your PC in under a week. It’s literally the only subclass in the game that can kill your PC with the very first feature it gives you… and that’s the one they give out for free to entice people to play D&D. (No bueno.)
Look at every other “inferior” subclass:
The only one that can kill itself just by using its own feature is Berserker… and that’s the one they give to new players for free…? 😳 🤦♂️ 😞
To me, the only improvement is to make that feature less punishing to use twice in the same day.
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All fair, lol. I also would probably move away from Frenzy as written if someone wanted to play a Berserker in my campaign (my current strategy is just give them a fighting style and Horde Breaker), but this other idea was just a vague solution that popped into my head that seemed like it could offer a buff without changing as much as some other suggestions.
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Oh, it’s a good idea I suppose, I was just offering one man’s opinion. This is my fix for the Berserker:
That’s one free use per day, exhausting after the subsequent ones, and it at least ignores its own penalties while ya use it. Yeah, that can tempt people into trouble, but we cannot protect them from themselves at that point, and it becomes a form of resource management because at least the rewards are commensurate with the risk.
Someone else recently suggested they get an inverse of the penalties from their current level of exhaustion while frenzied. For example, if ye frenzy with 3levels of exhaustion then while frenzied you would ignore the exhaustion and get Advantage on all Attacks, Checks, and Saves & your speed would double. I felt that a bit much, but definitely interesting.
I’ve also seen solutions as simple as giving them +50% Rage Damage while Frenzied; and just making Frenzy a Short Rest mechanic.
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All good (or at least interesting) ideas for sure.
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I like the first suggestion the most as its simple and gives you a way to ignore the exhaustion during rage which still incurs a cost but at least lets you be effective during rage.
Thanks, that’s what I was going for.
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