Starting when you choose this path at 3rd level, you can go into a frenzy when you rage. If you do so, for the duration of your rage you gain an additional action on each of your turns. That action can be used only to take the Attack (one melee weapon attack only) action. When your rage ends, you must succeed on a DC 10 Constitution saving throw or suffer one level of exhaustion. Each time you use this feature after the first, the DC increases by 5. When you finish a short or long rest, the DC resets to 10.
I feel the above keeps the overall theme of frenzy (pushing the limits) while not being overly harsh. It also opens up the idea of a frenzied, two-weapon fighting barbarian.
Honestly with the berserker the problem is no one wants to use this key ability unless they are sleeping immediately. No other class has an ability that, used once, makes every other out of combat thing harder for a day.
it’s not a risk reward thing. There is no risk. There is a guaranteed consequence. If instead there was “there is a chance of exhaustion when you end frenzy” then sure that leads towards that reckless risky fighting ideal.
if you got a free one use per day, instead. That’s awesome too. But we can’t have an ability like this that people just… don’t want to use ever. I am here for risks, and I am fine with if this is a risky move. I am not fine with a guaranteed less fun adventuring day after one go
Honestly with the berserker the problem is no one wants to use this key ability unless they are sleeping immediately. No other class has an ability that, used once, makes every other out of combat thing harder for a day.
it’s not a risk reward thing. There is no risk. There is a guaranteed consequence. If instead there was “there is a chance of exhaustion when you end frenzy” then sure that leads towards that reckless risky fighting ideal.
if you got a free one use per day, instead. That’s awesome too. But we can’t have an ability like this that people just… don’t want to use ever. I am here for risks, and I am fine with if this is a risky move. I am not fine with a guaranteed less fun adventuring day after one go
This. It would be a lot better if you had to make a con saving throw or suffer exhaustion.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I mean, yeah the Exhaustion is the biggest concern, because it really says if you have more than one combat a day, you have no Level 3 feature. You only reduce exhaustion by 1 for each long reast, and that never changes, and while Exhaustion Level 1 is not the end of the world, it gets worse. At just Level 2, your speed is halved, making you as a Melee basically unplayable. If you ever get exhaustion from anything else, you are screwed. And one Bonus Attack is just not worth it.
I know, these days alot of Dungeon Masters do the "one big encounter a day" stuff, but as soon as you get a dungeon Master who preferes to spread them out, you are f*cked.
And thats not even where it stops. Level 6 feature is nice, but Situational. Fear effects are kinda common, but also have a very manageable DC for most parts. So this is literally just a security net for the case of failure.
Level 10 sounds good, until you see it scales of your Charisma... You are a Barbarian, if you dont have some Cheese Build here you will need all your Points in Physical Attributes and since you dont want a negative on Wisdom EVER, you will have 8 Charisma. (And please dont come with "But I roll stats and I totaly get 5 good stats so I have good Charisma!!!!!", rolling doesnt count since its totaly luck based and you cna either start as a god or a burden to your party). So yeah, your save DC will be super low... in most cases this will just be a wasted Action. And even if it hits... you just gave up 2 Attacks to frighten an enemy for 1 turn.
Level 14 is good, use reaction for Counterattack, no limit, this one is nice.
Sorry, but with all other Options, I just dont see any real purpose for this Class, unless you play a game with super obvious Bossfights and only trivial encounters the rest of the Session...
I mean, yeah the Exhaustion is the biggest concern, because it really says if you have more than one combat a day, you have no Level 3 feature. You only reduce exhaustion by 1 for each long reast, and that never changes, and while Exhaustion Level 1 is not the end of the world, it gets worse. At just Level 2, your speed is halved, making you as a Melee basically unplayable. If you ever get exhaustion from anything else, you are screwed. And one Bonus Attack is just not worth it.
I know, these days alot of Dungeon Masters do the "one big encounter a day" stuff, but as soon as you get a dungeon Master who preferes to spread them out, you are f*cked.
And thats not even where it stops. Level 6 feature is nice, but Situational. Fear effects are kinda common, but also have a very manageable DC for most parts. So this is literally just a security net for the case of failure.
Level 10 sounds good, until you see it scales of your Charisma... You are a Barbarian, if you dont have some Cheese Build here you will need all your Points in Physical Attributes and since you dont want a negative on Wisdom EVER, you will have 8 Charisma. (And please dont come with "But I roll stats and I totaly get 5 good stats so I have good Charisma!!!!!", rolling doesnt count since its totaly luck based and you cna either start as a god or a burden to your party). So yeah, your save DC will be super low... in most cases this will just be a wasted Action. And even if it hits... you just gave up 2 Attacks to frighten an enemy for 1 turn.
Level 14 is good, use reaction for Counterattack, no limit, this one is nice.
Sorry, but with all other Options, I just dont see any real purpose for this Class, unless you play a game with super obvious Bossfights and only trivial encounters the rest of the Session...
Yeah there are definitely games like that out there so it's viable for some campaigns at least.
It's just not very good for the majority of others
I mean, yeah the Exhaustion is the biggest concern, because it really says if you have more than one combat a day, you have no Level 3 feature. You only reduce exhaustion by 1 for each long reast, and that never changes, and while Exhaustion Level 1 is not the end of the world, it gets worse. At just Level 2, your speed is halved, making you as a Melee basically unplayable. If you ever get exhaustion from anything else, you are screwed. And one Bonus Attack is just not worth it.
I know, these days alot of Dungeon Masters do the "one big encounter a day" stuff, but as soon as you get a dungeon Master who preferes to spread them out, you are f*cked.
And thats not even where it stops. Level 6 feature is nice, but Situational. Fear effects are kinda common, but also have a very manageable DC for most parts. So this is literally just a security net for the case of failure.
Level 10 sounds good, until you see it scales of your Charisma... You are a Barbarian, if you dont have some Cheese Build here you will need all your Points in Physical Attributes and since you dont want a negative on Wisdom EVER, you will have 8 Charisma. (And please dont come with "But I roll stats and I totaly get 5 good stats so I have good Charisma!!!!!", rolling doesnt count since its totaly luck based and you cna either start as a god or a burden to your party). So yeah, your save DC will be super low... in most cases this will just be a wasted Action. And even if it hits... you just gave up 2 Attacks to frighten an enemy for 1 turn.
Level 14 is good, use reaction for Counterattack, no limit, this one is nice.
Sorry, but with all other Options, I just dont see any real purpose for this Class, unless you play a game with super obvious Bossfights and only trivial encounters the rest of the Session...
Just curious about one point you made; why would you not ever want a negative on wisdom? Doesn't Mindless Rage mitigate the need for wisdom? Seems to me, for a Berserker Barbarian, wisdom would be the dump-stat.
Just curious about one point you made; why would you not ever want a negative on wisdom? Doesn't Mindless Rage mitigate the need for wisdom? Seems to me, for a Berserker Barbarian, wisdom would be the dump-stat.
Well, even if we say you put your 10 in Charisma, you still will still only get a +0 mod, thats not much better...
Just curious about one point you made; why would you not ever want a negative on wisdom? Doesn't Mindless Rage mitigate the need for wisdom? Seems to me, for a Berserker Barbarian, wisdom would be the dump-stat.
Well, even if we say you put your 10 in Charisma, you still will still only get a +0 mod, thats not much better...
I'm not talking about the Charisma. You made a point about Wisdom that I was hoping you could clarify.
Wisdom comes in for your perception roles and passive perception. I dontreally like thoseto be negative mods.
Well, maybe we agree that is a personal preference and not a given absolute? I know a lot of players who don't give preference to perception scores and still run very effective characters. A Barbarian with a high Strength and Constitution and a good value in Charisma is a perfectly acceptable build.
Well, maybe we agree that is a personal preference and not a given absolute? I know a lot of players who don't give preference to perception scores and still run very effective characters. A Barbarian with a high Strength and Constitution and a good value in Charisma is a perfectly acceptable build.
I mean, sure if you are ok with having basically no AC, sure.
Well, maybe we agree that is a personal preference and not a given absolute? I know a lot of players who don't give preference to perception scores and still run very effective characters. A Barbarian with a high Strength and Constitution and a good value in Charisma is a perfectly acceptable build.
I mean, sure if you are ok with having basically no AC, sure.
Well, maybe we agree that is a personal preference and not a given absolute? I know a lot of players who don't give preference to perception scores and still run very effective characters. A Barbarian with a high Strength and Constitution and a good value in Charisma is a perfectly acceptable build.
I mean, sure if you are ok with having basically no AC, sure.
They could always wear armor, or be a Tortle.
Sadly, rage prohibits heavy armor so sacrificing Dexterity is a big hit for a barbarian and leaves their best AC at 15. And trying to say that only Tortles should play a berserker is a non argument.
Well, maybe we agree that is a personal preference and not a given absolute? I know a lot of players who don't give preference to perception scores and still run very effective characters. A Barbarian with a high Strength and Constitution and a good value in Charisma is a perfectly acceptable build.
I mean, sure if you are ok with having basically no AC, sure.
Am I missing something in your argument? Wisdom has nothing to do with barbarian AC.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Well, maybe we agree that is a personal preference and not a given absolute? I know a lot of players who don't give preference to perception scores and still run very effective characters. A Barbarian with a high Strength and Constitution and a good value in Charisma is a perfectly acceptable build.
I mean, sure if you are ok with having basically no AC, sure.
They could always wear armor, or be a Tortle.
Sadly, rage prohibits heavy armor so sacrificing Dexterity is a big hit for a barbarian and leaves their best AC at 15. And trying to say that only Tortles should play a berserker is a non argument.
Who said “sacrifice” Dex?!? Even a 14 Dex with a Breastplate & Shield is AC 19.
Who said only Tortles should be Berserkers?!? I said it was an option if someone wanted to dump Dex for a Berserker.
You really got an “all or nothing” approach, don’t ya?
A Barbarian wearing Armor feels just... I dont know, kinda wrong... But thats just me.
That’s new, in older editions they could wear armor, leather & hide. That was back when AC stacked instead of calculating. Every Barbarian wore hides back then.
Well, maybe we agree that is a personal preference and not a given absolute? I know a lot of players who don't give preference to perception scores and still run very effective characters. A Barbarian with a high Strength and Constitution and a good value in Charisma is a perfectly acceptable build.
I mean, sure if you are ok with having basically no AC, sure.
They could always wear armor, or be a Tortle.
Sadly, rage prohibits heavy armor so sacrificing Dexterity is a big hit for a barbarian and leaves their best AC at 15. And trying to say that only Tortles should play a berserker is a non argument.
Who said “sacrifice” Dex?!? Even a 14 Dex with a Breastplate & Shield is AC 19.
Who said only Tortles should be Berserkers?!? I said it was an option if someone wanted to dump Dex for a Berserker.
You really got an “all or nothing” approach, don’t ya?
I believe the discussion was revolving around favoring Charisma to take advantage of the level 10 berserker feature. My point is that the barbarian is already MAD as all get out. If you use point buy or standard array than it's basically impossible to get your CHA high enough to make Intimidating Presence worth a darn. At least without making huge sacrifices to the stats you need as a barbarian. Even rolling stats would take a huge streak of luck.
And when you say berserkers can 'just wear armor' or be 'tortles' I say that is a poor argument. It is no defense for Intimidating Presence requiring a good CHA which only adds to the MADness of the barbarian.
I do not think the berserker sucks, but I do think it is hard to min/max it unless you roll for ability scores and roll well. Min/maxing is not necessarily the only way to have fun though and I do have many PCs that are decidedly suboptimal. However, I have an example of fantastic rolls and if my DM was not present for it, he said he would not have believed it himself. 18, 17, 16, 16, 12, 10. In fact, one of the 16s was previously a 13, but my DM asked me to reroll it so I wouldn’t imbalance the party. It rolled a 16 the second time and he threw up his hands and said that the dice gods have made their decision. I knew I wanted to use these for a subclass I generally avoid and the berserker made sense at the time.
Note: We houseruled that as long as I do something strength-related, I can use strength as my modifier for intimidation. I realize this adds support to the discussion on why berserker is less than ideal, but it is what it is.
I'll ask you firsthand, then. Have you tried using your defining subclass feature twice in one day yet? If so, how did you deal with the consequences? Did you simply convince your DM to let you take 2 long rests afterward?
Wisdom comes in for your perception roles and passive perception. I dontreally like thoseto be negative mods.
And wisdom counts as your main ability to cast spells, so guess what it could happen if you have negative mods on this one....
I better perfer a Barbarian who lacks only on INT mods than a Barbarian who lacks on WIS mods, because if I have a wizzard and I need extra protection, for sure I want the type of a Barbarian who can detect anything in the nearbies, while I spend my turn casting or performing a ritual.
I see two issues with Frenzy.
Therefore, I would reword Frenzy as such:
I feel the above keeps the overall theme of frenzy (pushing the limits) while not being overly harsh. It also opens up the idea of a frenzied, two-weapon fighting barbarian.
Honestly with the berserker the problem is no one wants to use this key ability unless they are sleeping immediately. No other class has an ability that, used once, makes every other out of combat thing harder for a day.
it’s not a risk reward thing. There is no risk. There is a guaranteed consequence. If instead there was “there is a chance of exhaustion when you end frenzy” then sure that leads towards that reckless risky fighting ideal.
if you got a free one use per day, instead. That’s awesome too. But we can’t have an ability like this that people just… don’t want to use ever. I am here for risks, and I am fine with if this is a risky move. I am not fine with a guaranteed less fun adventuring day after one go
This. It would be a lot better if you had to make a con saving throw or suffer exhaustion.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I mean, yeah the Exhaustion is the biggest concern, because it really says if you have more than one combat a day, you have no Level 3 feature. You only reduce exhaustion by 1 for each long reast, and that never changes, and while Exhaustion Level 1 is not the end of the world, it gets worse. At just Level 2, your speed is halved, making you as a Melee basically unplayable. If you ever get exhaustion from anything else, you are screwed. And one Bonus Attack is just not worth it.
I know, these days alot of Dungeon Masters do the "one big encounter a day" stuff, but as soon as you get a dungeon Master who preferes to spread them out, you are f*cked.
And thats not even where it stops. Level 6 feature is nice, but Situational. Fear effects are kinda common, but also have a very manageable DC for most parts. So this is literally just a security net for the case of failure.
Level 10 sounds good, until you see it scales of your Charisma... You are a Barbarian, if you dont have some Cheese Build here you will need all your Points in Physical Attributes and since you dont want a negative on Wisdom EVER, you will have 8 Charisma. (And please dont come with "But I roll stats and I totaly get 5 good stats so I have good Charisma!!!!!", rolling doesnt count since its totaly luck based and you cna either start as a god or a burden to your party).
So yeah, your save DC will be super low... in most cases this will just be a wasted Action. And even if it hits... you just gave up 2 Attacks to frighten an enemy for 1 turn.
Level 14 is good, use reaction for Counterattack, no limit, this one is nice.
Sorry, but with all other Options, I just dont see any real purpose for this Class, unless you play a game with super obvious Bossfights and only trivial encounters the rest of the Session...
Yeah there are definitely games like that out there so it's viable for some campaigns at least.
It's just not very good for the majority of others
Just curious about one point you made; why would you not ever want a negative on wisdom? Doesn't Mindless Rage mitigate the need for wisdom? Seems to me, for a Berserker Barbarian, wisdom would be the dump-stat.
Awww yeah!!!
Well, even if we say you put your 10 in Charisma, you still will still only get a +0 mod, thats not much better...
I'm not talking about the Charisma. You made a point about Wisdom that I was hoping you could clarify.
Awww yeah!!!
Wisdom comes in for your perception roles and passive perception. I dontreally like thoseto be negative mods.
Well, maybe we agree that is a personal preference and not a given absolute? I know a lot of players who don't give preference to perception scores and still run very effective characters. A Barbarian with a high Strength and Constitution and a good value in Charisma is a perfectly acceptable build.
Awww yeah!!!
I mean, sure if you are ok with having basically no AC, sure.
They could always wear armor, or be a Tortle.
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Sadly, rage prohibits heavy armor so sacrificing Dexterity is a big hit for a barbarian and leaves their best AC at 15. And trying to say that only Tortles should play a berserker is a non argument.
Current Characters I am playing: Dr Konstantin van Wulf | Taegen Willowrun | Mad Magnar
Check out my homebrew: Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Feats
Am I missing something in your argument? Wisdom has nothing to do with barbarian AC.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Who said “sacrifice” Dex?!? Even a 14 Dex with a Breastplate & Shield is AC 19.
Who said only Tortles should be Berserkers?!? I said it was an option if someone wanted to dump Dex for a Berserker.
You really got an “all or nothing” approach, don’t ya?
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Well, for me thats Roleplay reason...
A Barbarian wearing Armor feels just... I dont know, kinda wrong... But thats just me.
That’s new, in older editions they could wear armor, leather & hide. That was back when AC stacked instead of calculating. Every Barbarian wore hides back then.
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I believe the discussion was revolving around favoring Charisma to take advantage of the level 10 berserker feature. My point is that the barbarian is already MAD as all get out. If you use point buy or standard array than it's basically impossible to get your CHA high enough to make Intimidating Presence worth a darn. At least without making huge sacrifices to the stats you need as a barbarian. Even rolling stats would take a huge streak of luck.
And when you say berserkers can 'just wear armor' or be 'tortles' I say that is a poor argument. It is no defense for Intimidating Presence requiring a good CHA which only adds to the MADness of the barbarian.
Current Characters I am playing: Dr Konstantin van Wulf | Taegen Willowrun | Mad Magnar
Check out my homebrew: Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Feats
I'll ask you firsthand, then. Have you tried using your defining subclass feature twice in one day yet? If so, how did you deal with the consequences? Did you simply convince your DM to let you take 2 long rests afterward?
And wisdom counts as your main ability to cast spells, so guess what it could happen if you have negative mods on this one....
I better perfer a Barbarian who lacks only on INT mods than a Barbarian who lacks on WIS mods, because if I have a wizzard and I need extra protection, for sure I want the type of a Barbarian who can detect anything in the nearbies, while I spend my turn casting or performing a ritual.
My Ready-to-rock&roll chars:
Dertinus Tristany // Amilcar Barca // Vicenç Sacrarius // Oriol Deulofeu // Grovtuk