I love how this is still contested by people - it means there is a spot for this class in some peoples’ hearts. We’ve gone over all of the arguments/pros/cons, I’ll just share some fitting anecdotes.
I’m playing with a Berserker in a campaign I run, and he’s using Frenzy for BBEG battles where he has a shield and a Battleaxe, so he can dodge amidst a swarm of enemies and still get a bonus attack every turn. Total damage output was decent and he outright absorbed most of the damage from the baddies.
Also, in my other campaign I play in, the Bear Totem Barbarian fought an Adult Red Dragon and just sat there doing nothing for 10 rounds while the rest of us had to do it all ourselves. Total damage output was literally 0. We eventually just took him off the turn tracker.
I mean, we could all go around bringing up more theory but how about try playing one instead, past 3rd level and reporting back your own results instead of rehashing this over and over again in our whiteroom.
It's not like Berserkers can fly. This is a common issue for Barbarians, and one of the reasons I think it's just poor design Rage and Reckless Attack are melee only instead of melee weapon only, so they can at least credibly throw javelins (they should carry javelins anyway, and your example Barbarian has only themselves to blame for not having any - even an unbuffed javelin throw is more DPR than 0). Mind you, an Adult Red Dragon refusing to use its melee weapons has a tiny fraction of its DPR available - a Barbarian convincing one to just stay away instead of coming in close is completely fulfilling their job of tanking. If it stayed away just to avoid tangling with the Barbarian and fought a losing battle of ranged firepower with the party, that's a strong win for the Barbarian, just a boring one.
I would never play a Berserker, because frenzying every time you rage is a terrible idea, and I want my subclass to be relevant every time I rage. My go-to subclasses for Barbarian are Totem and Guardian, although I've never tried a Beast Barbarian and would be keen on seeing if I can do anything clever with it, in particular using a Grung.
In what game would you fight an Adult Red Dragon without copious amounts of Earthbind or some other form of movement-restricting methods or allow your Barbarian a simple flying spell? At the level you fight an Adult Red I’d assume you’re quite a bit more prepared? I mean, we are talking CR 10+ here, the players and monsters will have been flying, burrowing, invisible, etc quite regularly by now.
And no, I wouldn’t call keeping the Barbarian away and incapable of getting any meaningful damage somehow a win for the Barbarian’s party. In a 3D world, the dragon could engage your party at any angle and with as much melee or fire breath it wanted and still remain completely free of Barbarian attacks.
Or maybe I don’t understand your post? Have I missed some rule about dragons or fear that I didn’t understand?
I would never play a Berserker, because frenzying every time you rage is a terrible idea, and I want my subclass to be relevant every time I rage. My go-to subclasses for Barbarian are Totem and Guardian, although I've never tried a Beast Barbarian and would be keen on seeing if I can do anything clever with it, in particular using a Grung.
This is such a weird thing for me to see. I mean, I see it all the time, but it's just weird.
You can't guarantee your subclass feature will be relevant every time you rage. This is especially true for barbarians who follow the Path of the Totem Warrior.
Bear. This is a broadly applicable passive that only matters if there's a chance you'll take damage that isn't bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing. Considering how many creatures you fight that are below your CR, this probably won't even be a factor until at least 4th level. Seriously, is every fight from 3rd-level on supposed to have an enemy that deals Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning, Necrotic, Poison, Radiant, or Thunder damage?
Eagle. To gain the full benefit, you need to be a skirmisher who's constantly weaving in and out of combat and using your Bonus Action to Dash. Not only are you not playing a tank, which is fine, but you're not even focusing fire to down a single enemy. This is tactically-minded, more so than a lot of other paths, in the sense that positioning is important. You're playing support to someone else.
Elk. Are you moving enough to justify the extra 15 feet of movement speed, or is this just one of those "in case I need it" features?
Tiger. Are you doing a lot of jumping? Do you regularly need to clear a 25ish-foot gap in the floor? Or 8-9ish-feet vertically? Oh, and don't forget to add 1.5 times your character's height to know how high a ledge you can reach. But, honestly, how many people bother with those statistics? I mean, I do, but nobody ever talks about them. In either case, you probably want proficiency with both Acrobatics and Athletics. Good thing you can have both by 6th-level. (We'll come back to that.)
Wolf. If you're the only front-liner, this is useless. If you're not, but you're all engaging multiple enemies, this is useless. If you're using the optional rule for flanking, this might be rendered useless.
And this is setting aside completely the fact that the 6th-level feature for every single one of these paths doesn't need your barbarian's rage to function. So even the rage benefit here is negligible. Every single 3rd-level Primal Path feature in the Player Handbook is situational. And yet, people will rave about how "good" or "strong" some of them are. Now, don't get me wrong, their being situational is perfectly fine because, when they do matter, they can be especially powerful in that moment.
I would never play a Berserker, because frenzying every time you rage is a terrible idea, and I want my subclass to be relevant every time I rage. My go-to subclasses for Barbarian are Totem and Guardian, although I've never tried a Beast Barbarian and would be keen on seeing if I can do anything clever with it, in particular using a Grung.
This is such a weird thing for me to see. I mean, I see it all the time, but it's just weird.
You can't guarantee your subclass feature will be relevant every time you rage. This is especially true for barbarians who follow the Path of the Totem Warrior.
Bear. This is a broadly applicable passive that only matters if there's a chance you'll take damage that isn't bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing. Considering how many creatures you fight that are below your CR, this probably won't even be a factor until at least 4th level. Seriously, is every fight from 3rd-level on supposed to have an enemy that deals Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning, Necrotic, Poison, Radiant, or Thunder damage?
Eagle. To gain the full benefit, you need to be a skirmisher who's constantly weaving in and out of combat and using your Bonus Action to Dash. Not only are you not playing a tank, which is fine, but you're not even focusing fire to down a single enemy. This is tactically-minded, more so than a lot of other paths, in the sense that positioning is important. You're playing support to someone else.
Elk. Are you moving enough to justify the extra 15 feet of movement speed, or is this just one of those "in case I need it" features?
Tiger. Are you doing a lot of jumping? Do you regularly need to clear a 25ish-foot gap in the floor? Or 8-9ish-feet vertically? Oh, and don't forget to add 1.5 times your character's height to know how high a ledge you can reach. But, honestly, how many people bother with those statistics? I mean, I do, but nobody ever talks about them. In either case, you probably want proficiency with both Acrobatics and Athletics. Good thing you can have both by 6th-level. (We'll come back to that.)
Wolf. If you're the only front-liner, this is useless. If you're not, but you're all engaging multiple enemies, this is useless. If you're using the optional rule for flanking, this might be rendered useless.
And this is setting aside completely the fact that the 6th-level feature for every single one of these paths doesn't need your barbarian's rage to function. So even the rage benefit here is negligible. Every single 3rd-level Primal Path feature in the Player Handbook is situational. And yet, people will rave about how "good" or "strong" some of them are. Now, don't get me wrong, their being situational is perfectly fine because, when they do matter, they can be especially powerful in that moment.
I think the major difference here is that those benefits are "always on" even if you do not use them and do not come with any detrimental side-effect. Do you end up using it? Great! Do you end up not using it? Thats fine, no harm done. Did the fight change half way in where you ended up needing it even if it didnt help at the start? Got you covered.
The way Frenzy is worded, it sounds like you have to declare it when you rage. In other words, whenever you start your rage you have to know in that moment whether Frenzy is going to pay off for that encounter or not.
An encounter could be designed that causes the fight to change in the middle of the battle. If a new monster appears on turn X that deals Thunder and Lightning damage, the raging Bear Totem barbarian is covered. If a new monster appears with alot of health that really needs that bonus action attack to beat quickly, then the Berserker Barb that is already raging is out of luck if they didn't anticipate needing their frenzy at the start of the rage (back when they were just dealing with weaker monsters).
So to me, it seems like part of the issue is the detrimental side effect. The other part is that you cannot choose to frenzy in the middle of a rage, so you cannot pull a frenzied rage out of your back pocket when the tides turn in an unexpected way.
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It's a case of risk versus reward. Some people can't stand those kind of choices, but I don't mind.
There isn't a single barbarian subclass that can output more damage per round than a frenzied berserker. They're neck-and-neck, or slightly ahead, with the Path of the Zealot and its Divine Fury up through 14th-level. At which point, Path of the Berserker gets Retaliation and doesn't even need to use Frenzy to outpace them. Turn on Frenzy and watch the numbers add up. All things being equal (24 Strength, mundane greataxe, no other magic items), we're talking averages (across three rounds of combat) of 60 DPR to 48 DPR, or a ratio of 5:4 in favor of the berserker. Even without Frenzy, it's 43:38 at 14th-level. And it only goes up the better your weapon is; since full attacks mean any flat modifiers and extra damage dice get to apply more often.
And that's just assuming they use their Action to Attack. They don't have to. Frenzy is independent, so it can be used alongside Intimidating Presence. Is that worth it to you? Could be. With a decent Charisma modifier and Bane, I could see it shutting down the right targets. This is also one of those weird builds where Constitution is probably your third most important ability. As barbarians go, they're kind of glass cannons.
Is all that worth the occasional point of Exhaustion? I can certainly think of times when it would be. The biggest impediment might be not playing to a high enough level. I can only think of three hardcovers (Tyranny of Dragons, Out of the Abyss, and Dungeon of the Mad Mage) that take players far enough along for the berserker to really shine. (Even the recently ended Campaign 2 of Critical Role ended around level 15 or 16.) There is also the Dream of Red Wizards campaign for Adventurer's League, but not everyone likes AL.
As for when Frenzy has to be initiated, I'm going to disagree with you on timing. You can't even use it on the same turn you activate your rage because both require your Bonus Action. It's a toggle the barbarian can turn on when they need to. And, unlike some other subclasses, it's fairly efficient because it's not just stacking damage on top of another attack.
As for when Frenzy has to be initiated, I'm going to disagree with you on timing. You can't even use it on the same turn you activate your rage because both require your Bonus Action. It's a toggle the barbarian can turn on when they need to. And, unlike some other subclasses, it's fairly efficient because it's not just stacking damage on top of another attack.
Here is the language for Frenzy per D&D Beyond:
Frenzy
Starting when you choose this path at 3rd level, you can go into a frenzy when you rage. If you do so, for the duration of your rage you can make a single melee weapon attack as a bonus action on each of your turns after this one. When your rage ends, you suffer one level of exhaustion.
Because the phrase is "when you rage" as opposed to "during your rage" or "while raging" I am inclined to think that Frenzy can only be activated when you start your rage as opposed to being an ability that you can toggle. I feel this is supported by the language further stating "for the duration of your rage" as opposed to something like "for the remainder of your rage."
Maybe I am splitting hairs, but to me the language appears to imply that Frenzy occurs at the start of your rage, not at any point in the middle.
Edit: To add for comparison, all of the totem barb options that are "always on" specifically use the language "while raging" or "while you are raging."
As for your other points, it is interesting to see how it plays at later level and I agree it could definitely shine at 14th level and above, especially since a party member with greater restoration could help to mitigate some of those exhaustion levels. Sadly, as you noted, not alot of campaigns get to that level.
It's a case of risk versus reward. Some people can't stand those kind of choices, but I don't mind.
Nah, risk vs. reward abilities are really interesting. The problem with the berserker is it just falls flat on its face in enabling that concept to begin with.
@Jounichi1983 - I think you are going down the wrong path regarding Berserker. The problem isn't with the bonus action attack itself. It is with the penalty for it. Exhaustion is just plain bad (at any level) and the extra attack you get for it is not that great when compared to the many alternative ways to get a bonus action attack.
It appears that some folks playstyle works with exhaustion but I have a hard time seeing how. Unless you immediately take a long rest after facing down whatever encounter you decide is worth using frenzy on you are stuck with disadvantage on EVERY ability check for the rest of the day. That includes initiative! No other class or subclass in the game has a feature that hampers a character in all three tiers of play. Want to intimidate someone? Your barbarian is a trembling mess. Want to climb a rope? You are risking your life because of how tired you are. Need to do some roleplaying after the fight? The berserker is too tired to contribute. Need to keep watch at night or track something? The berserkers eyes are half closed. Another combat? Roll initiative at disadvantage and pray that you don't get grappled or webbed or have to make a perception check.
The biggest crux for me is that the image that the name berserker invokes. When I read a subclass called berserker I expect to be impressed. The subclass fails in that regard.
Well, from 5th-level on every barbarian has advantage on their initiative rolls. Keeping that in mind, having disadvantage isn't that big a deal. They just end up rolling straight, which is what everyone else does anyway. The big issue is whether or not you think risking exhaustion is worth it. And if you don't, fine. It's clearly not for you. That's okay. Just as Baskin Robbins has 31 flavors, we have more character options just in the PHB than we shake a quarterstaff at:
Nine races. Twenty subraces if you also include meaningful divisions like how many different kinds of breath weapons and resistances a dragonborn can have while eliminating redundancies.
Twelve classes. Forty-one subclasses, which blow up to 51 if you also include the expanded spell lists for the druid's Circle of the Land and the warlock's Pact Boon.
Thirteen backgrounds. But if we include all the variants, it's really 18.
That's 18,360 combinations; not bothering to count all the other ways characters can be customized. Features like their fighting style or spell selection, or even the dwarf's starting tool proficiency. My point is, it's no big deal if you, or anyone else, doesn't like one subclass. There's someone else out there that does, and that makes it okay.
That said, are there other ways of getting a Bonus Action attack? Yes, of course there are. Everyone has access to Two Weapon Fighting, but then the barbarian is using smaller weapons that deal at best 1d6 damage, and they're not adding their Strength modifier to every damage roll. They'd need to take two feats to even try to make up that gap. Or they could just take one feat, Polearm Master, but that comes with its own tradeoffs. They're stuck with a 1d10 weapon, plus 1d4 with their Bonus Action, instead of three 1d12 or 2d6 attacks. And that still costs a feat, which means it competes with literally every other feat they could take, never mind the ASI its replacing.
But feats are optional rules, and a berserker can still get that attack in without a feat. So while someone else is taking a feat (or two) to keep up, the berserker can do the same and still pull ahead. Or they can diversify and do something else.
The exhaustion mechanic doesn't play to everyone's idea of the fantasy, and I can see how that's frustrating. We also have to remember that names like "barbarian" and "berserker" are shorthand. They aren't necessarily representative of a specific fantasy. Barbarian literally just means someone who doesn't speak the language. I can't speak Cantonese or Mandarin fluently, so if I go to China then I'm a barbarian. Likewise, a berserker doesn't have to be the Old Norse berserkr. It could just as easily be the ríastrad of Cú Chulainn, Doctor Bruce Banner telling someone, "You wouldn't like me when I'm angry," or Son Gohan crying after Cell crushed the head of Android 16 with his foot.
A lot of us are also dissatisfied with the firearms rules from the DMG because they, too, don't live up to the fantasy we envision. We also might envision very different fantasies. That doesn't mean the designer's failed to achieve their goals. It's impossible to account for taste.
There isn't a single barbarian subclass that can output more damage per round than a frenzied berserker.
Plenty of them can, but an easy example of one is the Zealot. If you give me your assumptions about when exactly during the day you choose to frenzy, all else being equal, I'll make as many "standard" assumptions as I can and show you how badly a frenzied berserker functions, if you like. Since the first tier of exhaustion has no standard assumptions, I'll basically assume an attacker with something like ensnaring strike and go from there - really the only thing I have no idea how to make "reasonable" assumptions about is disadvantage on all ability checks for the rest of the day.
That said, are there other ways of getting a Bonus Action attack? Yes, of course there are. Everyone has access to Two Weapon Fighting, but then the barbarian is using smaller weapons that deal at best 1d6 damage, and they're not adding their Strength modifier to every damage roll. They'd need to take two feats to even try to make up that gap. Or they could just take one feat, Polearm Master, but that comes with its own tradeoffs. They're stuck with a 1d10 weapon, plus 1d4 with their Bonus Action, instead of three 1d12 or 2d6 attacks. And that still costs a feat, which means it competes with literally every other feat they could take, never mind the ASI its replacing.
But feats are optional rules, and a berserker can still get that attack in without a feat. So while someone else is taking a feat (or two) to keep up, the berserker can do the same and still pull ahead. Or they can diversify and do something else.
The berserker basically can't pull ahead. One of their many issues is that they get worse as they level compared to other Barbarian subclasses, because the others get their benefits every rage. The longer a berserker waits to frenzy, the worse they do by comparison, assuming crippled ability checks don't matter - and I've never even heard of a 5E campaign where that was true. And everything goes absolutely pear-shaped for them if they dare to frenzy a second time in a day.
That said, are there other ways of getting a Bonus Action attack? Yes, of course there are. Everyone has access to Two Weapon Fighting, but then the barbarian is using smaller weapons that deal at best 1d6 damage, and they're not adding their Strength modifier to every damage roll. They'd need to take two feats to even try to make up that gap. Or they could just take one feat, Polearm Master, but that comes with its own tradeoffs. They're stuck with a 1d10 weapon, plus 1d4 with their Bonus Action, instead of three 1d12 or 2d6 attacks. And that still costs a feat, which means it competes with literally every other feat they could take, never mind the ASI its replacing.
But feats are optional rules, and a berserker can still get that attack in without a feat. So while someone else is taking a feat (or two) to keep up, the berserker can do the same and still pull ahead. Or they can diversify and do something else.
The berserker basically can't pull ahead. One of their many issues is that they get worse as they level compared to other Barbarian subclasses, because the others get their benefits every rage. The longer a berserker waits to frenzy, the worse they do by comparison, assuming crippled ability checks don't matter - and I've never even heard of a 5E campaign where that was true. And everything goes absolutely pear-shaped for them if they dare to frenzy a second time in a day.
Getting benefits every rage does not in fact make it better. And in fact is disingenuous. Your making the lie by omission that Berserker's only potential for subclass effects during rage comes from Frenzy. It in fact does not.
Not only does Berserker have Mindless Rage. But in a Twist of Irony it is one of the subclasses who's subclass abilities most function outside of a rage as well as in it. Having not only the typical level 10 ability that does that but it's level 14 ability also doesn't require rage. Something that no other Barbarian gets. All others require everything but one of their powers require them to Rage. Usually the 10th level power though Storm Herald is 6th. Or all of their powers require rage. the Battle Rager being the most egregious about this.
so it's easy to complain about Berserker's exhaustion level and ways you might not use it's power. Though the barbarian is full of ways to mitigate issues of a level of exhaustion. But it ironically is the one least bound by it's rage to be an offensive power house. Even with the complaint that you don't get to 14th level in your games. That is still something that is written into them.
Might keep in mind that persistant rage... That removes some restrictions on keeping rages going. Doesn't kick in until level 15.
now don't get me wrong. I do like constant little bumps to damage over a long period. It's often the side I'm forced to advocate for when trying to point out that something isn't as much better than something else. It's a nice thing to have. But for a minute each day. The Berserker doesn't do a little bit of Extra Damage. They hit a point where they are quickly doing a lot of extra damage. The only one that rivals those hits. particularly once things like GWM are thrown in really is the Zealot. And interestingly enough. it has no other abilities to increase damage built into it other than Divine Fury. Everything else is either defensives, support, or utility. And Other abilities about it are questionable in their usefulness because in general Barbarians tend to be rather hard to deplete their hit points and kill. So your often better in disabling them in other ways that the Zealot can't really protect against well or repeatedly. So you might use some of them more often when your raging. But over the long term your not necessarily getting the same usefulness as you would out of the Berserker in an ironic twist, particularly over a full max level campaign.
Getting benefits every rage does not in fact make it better. And in fact is disingenuous. Your making the lie by omission that Berserker's only potential for subclass effects during rage comes from Frenzy. It in fact does not.
I am not. Jounichi made the case that a frenzied berserker out-DPRs other subclasses, and I responded in kind. The non-L3 abilities you're referring to aren't relevant to DPR.
Not only does Berserker have Mindless Rage.
This is true. Barbarians are good tanks, as I explicitly pointed out earlier in this thread. Mindless Rage is reasonably tanky - it just has no bearing on a DPR analysis. We can 100% discuss how tanky Berserkers are, if you like - their L6, L10, and L14 abilities are all designed for tanking.
But in a Twist of Irony it is one of the subclasses who's subclass abilities most function outside of a rage as well as in it. Having not only the typical level 10 ability that does that but it's level 14 ability also doesn't require rage. Something that no other Barbarian gets. All others require everything but one of their powers require them to Rage. Usually the 10th level power though Storm Herald is 6th. Or all of their powers require rage. the Battle Rager being the most egregious about this.
Battleragers are out-of-band awful, yes, but you're wrong about them, and Berserkers aren't alone. Berserkers get non-rage benefits at levels 10 and 14; Totem Barbarians get non-rage benefits at 6 and 10, and Zealot Barbarians get non-rage benefits at 3 and 10. As you correctly point out, the standard number of non-rage benefits is 1, and the level you get it at varies: Battleragers at 14, Guardian at 10, and Beast, Storm, and Wild Magic at 6.
so it's easy to complain about Berserker's exhaustion level and ways you might not use it's power. Though the barbarian is full of ways to mitigate issues of a level of exhaustion.
Rangers at level 10 and spellcasters at 9 if full, 17 if half (or 18 if half and multiclassed) can deal with exhaustion. All Barbarians can do is get advantage on some ability checks to reduce disadvantage to flat, which still means they're worse at those checks than when not exhausted, and all other checks are still crippled, including the most important ability check in the game, Perception.
But it ironically is the one least bound by it's rage to be an offensive power house. Even with the complaint that you don't get to 14th level in your games. That is still something that is written into them.
Again, agreed. I never made the case they were offensive powerhouses - Jounichi did. In fact, they are demonstrably not offensive powerhouses, with some of the worst DPR going for any Barbarian subclass.
Might keep in mind that persistant rage... That removes some restrictions on keeping rages going. Doesn't kick in until level 15.
now don't get me wrong. I do like constant little bumps to damage over a long period. It's often the side I'm forced to advocate for when trying to point out that something isn't as much better than something else. It's a nice thing to have. But for a minute each day. The Berserker doesn't do a little bit of Extra Damage. They hit a point where they are quickly doing a lot of extra damage. The only one that rivals those hits. particularly once things like GWM are thrown in really is the Zealot.
No, this is false. It's trivial to out-DPR a Berserker, because they dare not frenzy a bunch of times per day. Putting aside the challenge of objectively measuring how bad crippled ability checks are, starting at exhaustion 2 things start to get really bad, even ignoring the fact that if you're at exhaustion 2 today, you'll be at exhaustion 1 tomorrow.
What GWM does is make it harder for Beast Barbarians to compete, specifically, but simultaneously it reduces how competitive berserkers can be, since Barbarians are good at crit-fishing. Also potentially relevant to the analysis is that multiple Barbarian subclasses buff the party, so it's not feasible to objectively measure their DPR without making assumptions about party makeup; Zealots are one example of this, but not the only one. And, of course, different subclasses have different abilities kick in at different levels, so any analysis below level 14 intrinsically leaves out abilities that might be relevant.
And interestingly enough. it has no other abilities to increase damage built into it other than Divine Fury. Everything else is either defensives, support, or utility. And Other abilities about it are questionable in their usefulness because in general Barbarians tend to be rather hard to deplete their hit points and kill. So your often better in disabling them in other ways that the Zealot can't really protect against well or repeatedly. So you might use some of them more often when your raging. But over the long term your not necessarily getting the same usefulness as you would out of the Berserker in an ironic twist, particularly over a full max level campaign.
I don't even really like Zealots. I brought them up as an example of a subclass that can out-DPR a Berserker, because they get a DPR ability at level 3, making analysis simpler. Zealots are particularly easy to compare to Berserkers - they only become very different in their L14 benefits. I maintain the best, most useful Barbarian subclass overall is Guardian, but it's impossible to discuss with objective math how good Clairvoyance or Augury 1/rest is. I just object to how many opinions you're ascribing to me in your post that I don't have.
Mindless rage does have an Affect on DPR. It blocks two of the most effective ways to kill Rage in a Barbarian and thus shut off their abilities, One of which potentially then turns that barbarian on the party.
It's a lie to say this isn't a factor that both Affects their Damage but their effectiveness in other ways as well. And this is independent of Frenzy. Your insistence that this has no value what so ever is purely by your white rooming of circumstances where you've decided that being charmed. Or even more importantly Being Feared has no actual applicable affect. Fear not only stops rage simply by making the Barbarian for at least a turn where you don't have to attack it and it can't effectively attack whatever feared it. It's very effective at shutting down the DPR of those affected by it by removing all the additional DPR benefits of other Barbarian abilities relying on rage which can suddenly make that barbarian a lot more manageable if you just give it a moment to lose it's Rage. And it's often a mental roll. Something that Barbarians aren't necessarily particularly suited for by default.
While Frightened isn't entirely all that common. This is a good thing. Both for the Barbarian in general and because of a few rare effects tied to the frightened condition like the Death Gaze of the Bodak. Which the Berserker is thankfully immune to when Raging. though with that particular one it is a Con save so it's not quite as dangerous for a Barbarian. Assume that it's using purely published stats for it and hasn't been altered to make it more challenging for the party at a particular table. Because the Bodak can kill parties if given any real turns thanks to the Fact that Death Gaze is not only a turnless ability but purely proximity based so it has high potential to fire off multiple turns and attempts to avoid this fate require basically self imposed temporary exhaustion to avoid thanks to the fact that you have to avert your gaze and thus take disadvantage.
But then it's really amazing how many Undead at CR 6 and above can ruin the day of a Barbarian. Either by taking control of them. Shutting down their rages through fear, paralyze, or stuns. Or just don't play fair in other ways. Fae are another one that tend to have a lot of charm based abilities to mess up the flow of many a Barbarian. As can Many a caster that does more than just Fireball and Invisibility.
This is why Mindless Rage can actually have a big effect on the DPR of a barbarian if we really are being practical. Now will these things come up all the time? Depends on your Campaign. But this is a notable effect on DPR. One that is in the Berserker's favor because your mitigating one of the biggest weaknesses of the Barbarian. Though Sadly not removing it completely.
Getting benefits every rage does not in fact make it better. And in fact is disingenuous. Your making the lie by omission that Berserker's only potential for subclass effects during rage comes from Frenzy. It in fact does not.
I am not. Jounichi made the case that a frenzied berserker out-DPRs other subclasses, and I responded in kind. The non-L3 abilities you're referring to aren't relevant to DPR.
I made my case because the berserker can output more damage than anyone else. They won't always do it, but when the chips are down and you need it, nobody brings it like they do. That's just a fact. Let's assume, for a moment, a conservative pre-Tasha's estimate: a Strength score of 15, a greataxe, and every attack hits even though none are critical hits. It's not necessarily "realistic," but it doesn't have to be. The point is to remove variables.
At 3rd-level, a berserker can output an average of 21 (2d12+8) DPR per turn with their Frenzy. Across three rounds of combat, that becomes 17 DPR. A zealot with Divine Fury is outputting an average of 15 (1d12+4+1d6+1) DPR.
Battleragers are a little special. They get a battleaxe, instead of a greataxe, along with their spiked armor. And even if we factor in their first entire round just initiating rage and grappling, they're still tying any totem warrior with the same assumptions made for the berserker or zealot.
Which, for the record, is 10 DPR across three rounds of combat. Yes, this is true even though the battlerager is only dealing 3 piercing damage on their first turn.
I'm not seriously comparing against other subclasses yet because zealot appears to be the "gold standard"
At 5th-level, we see proficiency increase to 3 and Extra Attack. We also have an ASI that can bring Strength to 16 or 17 for a +3 modifier. Over three rounds, the zealot (2d12+10+1d6+2) is tying the berserker (3d12+15). The zealot will deal more damage over the long term; their Divine Fury procs with every Attack action. But it's also front-loaded, like Sneak Attack. The berserker can more easily share the pain and attack up to three enemies per turn. And that third attack will deal more damage than Divine Fury.
At 9th-level, we see the proficiency bonus increase to 4, our first Brutal Critical die (not that we care for these purposes), the rage damage bonus increases to +3, and a second ASI to give us a Strength score of 18 or 19 for a +4 modifier. With their Frenzied Rage, a berserker is hitting for an average of 40 (3d12+21) DPR, or 35 DPR across three turns. A zealot is hitting for 34 (2d12+14+1d6+4) DPR. Battleragers, like berserkers, have a lower first round but bring the average up to 28 and still have the control of a grappled target. The average for a totem warrior is a steady 27.
So far the berserker and zealot have been pretty much neck-and-neck when they're both going all out. But all that changes at 14th-level when the berserker gets Retaliation. Now they can make another weapon attack, with their Reaction, whenever an enemy within five feet strikes them with a melee attack. This should be happening every round, which means they're dealing 43:38 over the zealot without resorting to Frenzy.
The battlerager also gets Spiked Retribution at 14th-level, but it's impossible to say how many enemies are affected by it. Conservatively, it's just one, but that's still an extra 3 DPR per turn.
At 13th-level, we have another proficiency bonus increase, another Brutal Critical die, and another ASI for 20 Strength (+5 modifier). From the second round on, the berserker and battlerager are hitting for 43 (3d12+24) and 35 (2d8+16+1d4+8) damage, respectively, with three-round averages of 38 and 31. The zealot averages 38 (2d12+16+1d6+6) DPR, and the totem warrior averages 29.
At 20th-level, the berserker is dealing a combined 52 (3d12+33) DPR with just their Extra Attack and Retaliation. After adding Frenzy to the mix, they're dishing out 70 DPR per turn, or 60 DPR over three turns. A zealot, by comparison, is only dealing out an average of 48 (2d12+22+1d6+10) DPR.
With two more ASIs with which to possibly acquire feats, a zealot with Polearm Master and a glaive could deal an average of 55 damage across three turns. If they also had the Sentinel feat, they could potentially out DPR a frenzied berserker. But that also relies on an enemy not attacking the barbarian, so that's a case where party composition really matters. You want someone else to be the tank.
On the flip side, the berserker also has two other ASIs with which to improve their statistics or take feats.
Not to leave anyone out, the battlerager who also spends their first attack grappling a target is dealing an average of 39 DPR across three turns; boosted to a minimum of 42 for Spiked Retribution. Totem warriors are dealing an average of 35 DPR.
In terms of pure damage, the berserker has some clear strengths. It can do something no other barbarian subclass is capable of: make additional attacks with the business end of their weapon. If you're in a position where you're not worried about a point or two of exhaustion (BBEG fight at the end of the day, Wildemount's olisuba leaf), then it's probably fine to cut loose. And, yeah, if they ramp up then every other subclass basically struggles to compete (not that it needs to be a competition).
And I spent more time typing this out than I did actually running the numbers. Which just goes to show that people should stop listening to the "prevailing wisdom" of armchair theorists and just play.
Getting benefits every rage does not in fact make it better. And in fact is disingenuous. Your making the lie by omission that Berserker's only potential for subclass effects during rage comes from Frenzy. It in fact does not.
I am not. Jounichi made the case that a frenzied berserker out-DPRs other subclasses, and I responded in kind. The non-L3 abilities you're referring to aren't relevant to DPR.
I made my case because the berserker can output more damage than anyone else. They won't always do it, but when the chips are down and you need it, nobody brings it like they do. That's just a fact. Let's assume, for a moment, a conservative pre-Tasha's estimate: a Strength score of 15, a greataxe, and every attack hits even though none are critical hits. It's not necessarily "realistic," but it doesn't have to be. The point is to remove variables.
At 3rd-level, a berserker can output an average of 21 (2d12+8) DPR per turn with their Frenzy. Across three rounds of combat, that becomes 17 DPR. A zealot with Divine Fury is outputting an average of 15 (1d12+4+1d6+1) DPR.
Battleragers are a little special. They get a battleaxe, instead of a greataxe, along with their spiked armor. And even if we factor in their first entire round just initiating rage and grappling, they're still tying any totem warrior with the same assumptions made for the berserker or zealot.
Which, for the record, is 10 DPR across three rounds of combat. Yes, this is true even though the battlerager is only dealing 3 piercing damage on their first turn.
I'm not seriously comparing against other subclasses yet because zealot appears to be the "gold standard"
At 5th-level, we see proficiency increase to 3 and Extra Attack. We also have an ASI that can bring Strength to 16 or 17 for a +3 modifier. Over three rounds, the zealot (2d12+10+1d6+2) is tying the berserker (3d12+15). The zealot will deal more damage over the long term; their Divine Fury procs with every Attack action. But it's also front-loaded, like Sneak Attack. The berserker can more easily share the pain and attack up to three enemies per turn. And that third attack will deal more damage than Divine Fury.
At 9th-level, we see the proficiency bonus increase to 4, our first Brutal Critical die (not that we care for these purposes), the rage damage bonus increases to +3, and a second ASI to give us a Strength score of 18 or 19 for a +4 modifier. With their Frenzied Rage, a berserker is hitting for an average of 40 (3d12+21) DPR, or 35 DPR across three turns. A zealot is hitting for 34 (2d12+14+1d6+4) DPR. Battleragers, like berserkers, have a lower first round but bring the average up to 28 and still have the control of a grappled target. The average for a totem warrior is a steady 27.
So far the berserker and zealot have been pretty much neck-and-neck when they're both going all out. But all that changes at 14th-level when the berserker gets Retaliation. Now they can make another weapon attack, with their Reaction, whenever an enemy within five feet strikes them with a melee attack. This should be happening every round, which means they're dealing 43:38 over the zealot without resorting to Frenzy.
The battlerager also gets Spiked Retribution at 14th-level, but it's impossible to say how many enemies are affected by it. Conservatively, it's just one, but that's still an extra 3 DPR per turn.
At 13th-level, we have another proficiency bonus increase, another Brutal Critical die, and another ASI for 20 Strength (+5 modifier). From the second round on, the berserker and battlerager are hitting for 43 (3d12+24) and 35 (2d8+16+1d4+8) damage, respectively, with three-round averages of 38 and 31. The zealot averages 38 (2d12+16+1d6+6) DPR, and the totem warrior averages 29.
At 20th-level, the berserker is dealing a combined 52 (3d12+33) DPR with just their Extra Attack and Retaliation. After adding Frenzy to the mix, they're dishing out 70 DPR per turn, or 60 DPR over three turns. A zealot, by comparison, is only dealing out an average of 48 (2d12+22+1d6+10) DPR.
With two more ASIs with which to possibly acquire feats, a zealot with Polearm Master and a glaive could deal an average of 55 damage across three turns. If they also had the Sentinel feat, they could potentially out DPR a frenzied berserker. But that also relies on an enemy not attacking the barbarian, so that's a case where party composition really matters. You want someone else to be the tank.
On the flip side, the berserker also has two other ASIs with which to improve their statistics or take feats.
Not to leave anyone out, the battlerager who also spends their first attack grappling a target is dealing an average of 39 DPR across three turns; boosted to a minimum of 42 for Spiked Retribution. Totem warriors are dealing an average of 35 DPR.
In terms of pure damage, the berserker has some clear strengths. It can do something no other barbarian subclass is capable of: make additional attacks with the business end of their weapon. If you're in a position where you're not worried about a point or two of exhaustion (BBEG fight at the end of the day, Wildemount's olisuba leaf), then it's probably fine to cut loose. And, yeah, if they ramp up then every other subclass basically struggles to compete (not that it needs to be a competition).
And I spent more time typing this out than I did actually running the numbers. Which just goes to show that people should stop listening to the "prevailing wisdom" of armchair theorists and just play.
Problem with this is you are ignoring feats which most tables play with.....
Polearm master already puts most barbs on par with Zerker without invoking the exhaustion mechanic.
An 8th level PAM Bear Totem vs Berzker Frenzy: (assuming 20 STR for both for sake of simplicity)
Bear:
2(1d10+7) + (1d4+7) = 34.5
Zerk = 3(2d6+7) = 42
So about 8 points per turn difference which is a lot....but you are also giving up resistance to all damage and you are also exhausted afterwards.
So it would only really be worth it to me if I was fighting 2 or less fights per day as DIS to your attacks at exhaustion level 3 will dramatically reduce your damage output.
Getting benefits every rage does not in fact make it better. And in fact is disingenuous. Your making the lie by omission that Berserker's only potential for subclass effects during rage comes from Frenzy. It in fact does not.
I am not. Jounichi made the case that a frenzied berserker out-DPRs other subclasses, and I responded in kind. The non-L3 abilities you're referring to aren't relevant to DPR.
I made my case because the berserker can output more damage than anyone else. They won't always do it, but when the chips are down and you need it, nobody brings it like they do. That's just a fact. Let's assume, for a moment, a conservative pre-Tasha's estimate: a Strength score of 15, a greataxe, and every attack hits even though none are critical hits. It's not necessarily "realistic," but it doesn't have to be. The point is to remove variables.
At 3rd-level, a berserker can output an average of 21 (2d12+8) DPR per turn with their Frenzy. Across three rounds of combat, that becomes 17 DPR. A zealot with Divine Fury is outputting an average of 15 (1d12+4+1d6+1) DPR.
Battleragers are a little special. They get a battleaxe, instead of a greataxe, along with their spiked armor. And even if we factor in their first entire round just initiating rage and grappling, they're still tying any totem warrior with the same assumptions made for the berserker or zealot.
Which, for the record, is 10 DPR across three rounds of combat. Yes, this is true even though the battlerager is only dealing 3 piercing damage on their first turn.
I'm not seriously comparing against other subclasses yet because zealot appears to be the "gold standard"
At 5th-level, we see proficiency increase to 3 and Extra Attack. We also have an ASI that can bring Strength to 16 or 17 for a +3 modifier. Over three rounds, the zealot (2d12+10+1d6+2) is tying the berserker (3d12+15). The zealot will deal more damage over the long term; their Divine Fury procs with every Attack action. But it's also front-loaded, like Sneak Attack. The berserker can more easily share the pain and attack up to three enemies per turn. And that third attack will deal more damage than Divine Fury.
At 9th-level, we see the proficiency bonus increase to 4, our first Brutal Critical die (not that we care for these purposes), the rage damage bonus increases to +3, and a second ASI to give us a Strength score of 18 or 19 for a +4 modifier. With their Frenzied Rage, a berserker is hitting for an average of 40 (3d12+21) DPR, or 35 DPR across three turns. A zealot is hitting for 34 (2d12+14+1d6+4) DPR. Battleragers, like berserkers, have a lower first round but bring the average up to 28 and still have the control of a grappled target. The average for a totem warrior is a steady 27.
So far the berserker and zealot have been pretty much neck-and-neck when they're both going all out. But all that changes at 14th-level when the berserker gets Retaliation. Now they can make another weapon attack, with their Reaction, whenever an enemy within five feet strikes them with a melee attack. This should be happening every round, which means they're dealing 43:38 over the zealot without resorting to Frenzy.
The battlerager also gets Spiked Retribution at 14th-level, but it's impossible to say how many enemies are affected by it. Conservatively, it's just one, but that's still an extra 3 DPR per turn.
At 13th-level, we have another proficiency bonus increase, another Brutal Critical die, and another ASI for 20 Strength (+5 modifier). From the second round on, the berserker and battlerager are hitting for 43 (3d12+24) and 35 (2d8+16+1d4+8) damage, respectively, with three-round averages of 38 and 31. The zealot averages 38 (2d12+16+1d6+6) DPR, and the totem warrior averages 29.
At 20th-level, the berserker is dealing a combined 52 (3d12+33) DPR with just their Extra Attack and Retaliation. After adding Frenzy to the mix, they're dishing out 70 DPR per turn, or 60 DPR over three turns. A zealot, by comparison, is only dealing out an average of 48 (2d12+22+1d6+10) DPR.
With two more ASIs with which to possibly acquire feats, a zealot with Polearm Master and a glaive could deal an average of 55 damage across three turns. If they also had the Sentinel feat, they could potentially out DPR a frenzied berserker. But that also relies on an enemy not attacking the barbarian, so that's a case where party composition really matters. You want someone else to be the tank.
On the flip side, the berserker also has two other ASIs with which to improve their statistics or take feats.
Not to leave anyone out, the battlerager who also spends their first attack grappling a target is dealing an average of 39 DPR across three turns; boosted to a minimum of 42 for Spiked Retribution. Totem warriors are dealing an average of 35 DPR.
In terms of pure damage, the berserker has some clear strengths. It can do something no other barbarian subclass is capable of: make additional attacks with the business end of their weapon. If you're in a position where you're not worried about a point or two of exhaustion (BBEG fight at the end of the day, Wildemount's olisuba leaf), then it's probably fine to cut loose. And, yeah, if they ramp up then every other subclass basically struggles to compete (not that it needs to be a competition).
And I spent more time typing this out than I did actually running the numbers. Which just goes to show that people should stop listening to the "prevailing wisdom" of armchair theorists and just play.
Problem with this is you are ignoring feats which most tables play with.....
Polearm master already puts most barbs on par with Zerker without invoking the exhaustion mechanic.
An 8th level PAM Bear Totem vs Berzker Frenzy: (assuming 20 STR for both for sake of simplicity)
Bear:
2(1d10+7) + (1d4+7) = 34.5
Zerk = 3(2d6+7) = 42
So about 8 points per turn difference which is a lot....but you are also giving up resistance to all damage and you are also exhausted afterwards.
So it would only really be worth it to me if I was fighting 2 or less fights per day as DIS to your attacks at exhaustion level 3 will dramatically reduce your damage output.
Otherwise the PAM will pull ahead by fight 3.
Edit: weird, i read on phone and it only showed half the message.
Getting benefits every rage does not in fact make it better. And in fact is disingenuous. Your making the lie by omission that Berserker's only potential for subclass effects during rage comes from Frenzy. It in fact does not.
I am not. Jounichi made the case that a frenzied berserker out-DPRs other subclasses, and I responded in kind. The non-L3 abilities you're referring to aren't relevant to DPR.
I made my case because the berserker can output more damage than anyone else. They won't always do it, but when the chips are down and you need it, nobody brings it like they do. That's just a fact. Let's assume, for a moment, a conservative pre-Tasha's estimate: a Strength score of 15, a greataxe, and every attack hits even though none are critical hits. It's not necessarily "realistic," but it doesn't have to be. The point is to remove variables.
At 3rd-level, a berserker can output an average of 21 (2d12+8) DPR per turn with their Frenzy. Across three rounds of combat, that becomes 17 DPR. A zealot with Divine Fury is outputting an average of 15 (1d12+4+1d6+1) DPR.
Battleragers are a little special. They get a battleaxe, instead of a greataxe, along with their spiked armor. And even if we factor in their first entire round just initiating rage and grappling, they're still tying any totem warrior with the same assumptions made for the berserker or zealot.
Which, for the record, is 10 DPR across three rounds of combat. Yes, this is true even though the battlerager is only dealing 3 piercing damage on their first turn.
I'm not seriously comparing against other subclasses yet because zealot appears to be the "gold standard"
At 5th-level, we see proficiency increase to 3 and Extra Attack. We also have an ASI that can bring Strength to 16 or 17 for a +3 modifier. Over three rounds, the zealot (2d12+10+1d6+2) is tying the berserker (3d12+15). The zealot will deal more damage over the long term; their Divine Fury procs with every Attack action. But it's also front-loaded, like Sneak Attack. The berserker can more easily share the pain and attack up to three enemies per turn. And that third attack will deal more damage than Divine Fury.
At 9th-level, we see the proficiency bonus increase to 4, our first Brutal Critical die (not that we care for these purposes), the rage damage bonus increases to +3, and a second ASI to give us a Strength score of 18 or 19 for a +4 modifier. With their Frenzied Rage, a berserker is hitting for an average of 40 (3d12+21) DPR, or 35 DPR across three turns. A zealot is hitting for 34 (2d12+14+1d6+4) DPR. Battleragers, like berserkers, have a lower first round but bring the average up to 28 and still have the control of a grappled target. The average for a totem warrior is a steady 27.
So far the berserker and zealot have been pretty much neck-and-neck when they're both going all out. But all that changes at 14th-level when the berserker gets Retaliation. Now they can make another weapon attack, with their Reaction, whenever an enemy within five feet strikes them with a melee attack. This should be happening every round, which means they're dealing 43:38 over the zealot without resorting to Frenzy.
The battlerager also gets Spiked Retribution at 14th-level, but it's impossible to say how many enemies are affected by it. Conservatively, it's just one, but that's still an extra 3 DPR per turn.
At 13th-level, we have another proficiency bonus increase, another Brutal Critical die, and another ASI for 20 Strength (+5 modifier). From the second round on, the berserker and battlerager are hitting for 43 (3d12+24) and 35 (2d8+16+1d4+8) damage, respectively, with three-round averages of 38 and 31. The zealot averages 38 (2d12+16+1d6+6) DPR, and the totem warrior averages 29.
At 20th-level, the berserker is dealing a combined 52 (3d12+33) DPR with just their Extra Attack and Retaliation. After adding Frenzy to the mix, they're dishing out 70 DPR per turn, or 60 DPR over three turns. A zealot, by comparison, is only dealing out an average of 48 (2d12+22+1d6+10) DPR.
With two more ASIs with which to possibly acquire feats, a zealot with Polearm Master and a glaive could deal an average of 55 damage across three turns. If they also had the Sentinel feat, they could potentially out DPR a frenzied berserker. But that also relies on an enemy not attacking the barbarian, so that's a case where party composition really matters. You want someone else to be the tank.
On the flip side, the berserker also has two other ASIs with which to improve their statistics or take feats.
Not to leave anyone out, the battlerager who also spends their first attack grappling a target is dealing an average of 39 DPR across three turns; boosted to a minimum of 42 for Spiked Retribution. Totem warriors are dealing an average of 35 DPR.
In terms of pure damage, the berserker has some clear strengths. It can do something no other barbarian subclass is capable of: make additional attacks with the business end of their weapon. If you're in a position where you're not worried about a point or two of exhaustion (BBEG fight at the end of the day, Wildemount's olisuba leaf), then it's probably fine to cut loose. And, yeah, if they ramp up then every other subclass basically struggles to compete (not that it needs to be a competition).
And I spent more time typing this out than I did actually running the numbers. Which just goes to show that people should stop listening to the "prevailing wisdom" of armchair theorists and just play.
Problem with this is you are ignoring feats which most tables play with.....
Polearm master already puts most barbs on par with Zerker without invoking the exhaustion mechanic.
An 8th level PAM Bear Totem vs Berzker Frenzy: (assuming 20 STR for both for sake of simplicity)
Bear:
2(1d10+7) + (1d4+7) = 34.5
Zerk = 3(2d6+7) = 42
So about 8 points per turn difference which is a lot....but you are also giving up resistance to all damage and you are also exhausted afterwards.
So it would only really be worth it to me if I was fighting 2 or less fights per day as DIS to your attacks at exhaustion level 3 will dramatically reduce your damage output.
Otherwise the PAM will pull ahead by fight 3.
The berserker takes great weapon master and makes 3 attacks with +10 damage and one retaliation strike and out dps the Pam dude in its sleep. Since you only gave one class a feat for some reason.
Then PAM barb takes the same GWM feat? I mean its fair to say they both get a feat but I am also saying that feats play into the equation as well....
I am not saying bezerker is terrible by any means but its also just easy to get a BA attack or "extra" attack now with different subclasses so its 3rd level feature is not as unique.
Its much harder to get the other benefits from the other subclasses (Resistance from Bear, Spider Climb at will from Beast, Free Revify from Zealot) than what you can pick up a feat and do with Zerk.
Yeah, sure, but the main thing with PAM vs just a greataxe and bonus attack, is the PAM extra attack is much worse than a d12. Anyways like i edited, for some reason I didn't see the whole message so it just didn't come of good.
Anyways, if the PAM takes the same feat, they have used two feats while the berserker only used one so far. In addition the retaliation strike means another attack with a great axe and +10 from great weapon master.
Now, I think the biggest issue on these forums with the berserker is everyone compares to the berserker. And when they do they compare all the other subclasses to the berserker. It's basically like saying Battle master is the worst fighter class because the other fighters gets magic, better crit, unlimited advantage, guns, magic arrows and so on. They don't, they only get one of them. It's the same with the barbarians fortunately.
Yes, its harder to get the resistance from bear, but that goes for the zealot barbarian too, it doesn't have the resistance that bear totem does. Spider climb at will is awesome true, but they don't get the resistance from bear either, and bear totems don't get spiderclimb. Bear totems dont get free revives or spiderclimb. So no matter what you pick, someone will be better at something else, that's kinda the point on subclasses.
And the berserkers main subclass feature is: dishing out damage. And yes, they don't tank as well as a bear totem barbarian, but neither does beast barbarians. Arguably you could say zealots don't either but.. they get revived + that last insane ability that just lets them live forever is kinda tanky. But the point is, if you want to be extra tanky, bear totems are hard to beat.
But damage wise, the only one that of the top of my hat comes closest is the zealot barbarian and considering their kinda tankiness they are one of the better subclasses in that sense. Still cant spiderclimb tho :p
A berserker might not deal this massive damage every battle, but the battles that count it will. And it will do it well. The best use is with a greataxe, because any potential crit benefits more from extra d12's than a few d6's. The amount of attacks, up to 4, with great weapon master is better than the others.
Also, there's one more point that's overlooked a lot. Mindless rage. You can't be charmed or frightened during your rage. It might not come up often but when you face that vampire lord, lich or even mind flayer, all those zealots, beast barbarians and totem warriors will come up so short it's not even funny.
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The only thing I would change for frenzy is to succeed a Con 17 Check or suffer a level of exhaustion.
In what game would you fight an Adult Red Dragon without copious amounts of Earthbind or some other form of movement-restricting methods or allow your Barbarian a simple flying spell? At the level you fight an Adult Red I’d assume you’re quite a bit more prepared? I mean, we are talking CR 10+ here, the players and monsters will have been flying, burrowing, invisible, etc quite regularly by now.
And no, I wouldn’t call keeping the Barbarian away and incapable of getting any meaningful damage somehow a win for the Barbarian’s party. In a 3D world, the dragon could engage your party at any angle and with as much melee or fire breath it wanted and still remain completely free of Barbarian attacks.
Or maybe I don’t understand your post? Have I missed some rule about dragons or fear that I didn’t understand?
This is such a weird thing for me to see. I mean, I see it all the time, but it's just weird.
You can't guarantee your subclass feature will be relevant every time you rage. This is especially true for barbarians who follow the Path of the Totem Warrior.
And this is setting aside completely the fact that the 6th-level feature for every single one of these paths doesn't need your barbarian's rage to function. So even the rage benefit here is negligible. Every single 3rd-level Primal Path feature in the Player Handbook is situational. And yet, people will rave about how "good" or "strong" some of them are. Now, don't get me wrong, their being situational is perfectly fine because, when they do matter, they can be especially powerful in that moment.
I think the major difference here is that those benefits are "always on" even if you do not use them and do not come with any detrimental side-effect. Do you end up using it? Great! Do you end up not using it? Thats fine, no harm done. Did the fight change half way in where you ended up needing it even if it didnt help at the start? Got you covered.
The way Frenzy is worded, it sounds like you have to declare it when you rage. In other words, whenever you start your rage you have to know in that moment whether Frenzy is going to pay off for that encounter or not.
An encounter could be designed that causes the fight to change in the middle of the battle. If a new monster appears on turn X that deals Thunder and Lightning damage, the raging Bear Totem barbarian is covered. If a new monster appears with alot of health that really needs that bonus action attack to beat quickly, then the Berserker Barb that is already raging is out of luck if they didn't anticipate needing their frenzy at the start of the rage (back when they were just dealing with weaker monsters).
So to me, it seems like part of the issue is the detrimental side effect. The other part is that you cannot choose to frenzy in the middle of a rage, so you cannot pull a frenzied rage out of your back pocket when the tides turn in an unexpected way.
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It's a case of risk versus reward. Some people can't stand those kind of choices, but I don't mind.
There isn't a single barbarian subclass that can output more damage per round than a frenzied berserker. They're neck-and-neck, or slightly ahead, with the Path of the Zealot and its Divine Fury up through 14th-level. At which point, Path of the Berserker gets Retaliation and doesn't even need to use Frenzy to outpace them. Turn on Frenzy and watch the numbers add up. All things being equal (24 Strength, mundane greataxe, no other magic items), we're talking averages (across three rounds of combat) of 60 DPR to 48 DPR, or a ratio of 5:4 in favor of the berserker. Even without Frenzy, it's 43:38 at 14th-level. And it only goes up the better your weapon is; since full attacks mean any flat modifiers and extra damage dice get to apply more often.
And that's just assuming they use their Action to Attack. They don't have to. Frenzy is independent, so it can be used alongside Intimidating Presence. Is that worth it to you? Could be. With a decent Charisma modifier and Bane, I could see it shutting down the right targets. This is also one of those weird builds where Constitution is probably your third most important ability. As barbarians go, they're kind of glass cannons.
Is all that worth the occasional point of Exhaustion? I can certainly think of times when it would be. The biggest impediment might be not playing to a high enough level. I can only think of three hardcovers (Tyranny of Dragons, Out of the Abyss, and Dungeon of the Mad Mage) that take players far enough along for the berserker to really shine. (Even the recently ended Campaign 2 of Critical Role ended around level 15 or 16.) There is also the Dream of Red Wizards campaign for Adventurer's League, but not everyone likes AL.
As for when Frenzy has to be initiated, I'm going to disagree with you on timing. You can't even use it on the same turn you activate your rage because both require your Bonus Action. It's a toggle the barbarian can turn on when they need to. And, unlike some other subclasses, it's fairly efficient because it's not just stacking damage on top of another attack.
Here is the language for Frenzy per D&D Beyond:
Because the phrase is "when you rage" as opposed to "during your rage" or "while raging" I am inclined to think that Frenzy can only be activated when you start your rage as opposed to being an ability that you can toggle. I feel this is supported by the language further stating "for the duration of your rage" as opposed to something like "for the remainder of your rage."
Maybe I am splitting hairs, but to me the language appears to imply that Frenzy occurs at the start of your rage, not at any point in the middle.
Edit: To add for comparison, all of the totem barb options that are "always on" specifically use the language "while raging" or "while you are raging."
As for your other points, it is interesting to see how it plays at later level and I agree it could definitely shine at 14th level and above, especially since a party member with greater restoration could help to mitigate some of those exhaustion levels. Sadly, as you noted, not alot of campaigns get to that level.
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Frenzy is activated when you rage, not before, not after.
Nah, risk vs. reward abilities are really interesting. The problem with the berserker is it just falls flat on its face in enabling that concept to begin with.
@Jounichi1983 - I think you are going down the wrong path regarding Berserker. The problem isn't with the bonus action attack itself. It is with the penalty for it. Exhaustion is just plain bad (at any level) and the extra attack you get for it is not that great when compared to the many alternative ways to get a bonus action attack.
It appears that some folks playstyle works with exhaustion but I have a hard time seeing how. Unless you immediately take a long rest after facing down whatever encounter you decide is worth using frenzy on you are stuck with disadvantage on EVERY ability check for the rest of the day. That includes initiative! No other class or subclass in the game has a feature that hampers a character in all three tiers of play. Want to intimidate someone? Your barbarian is a trembling mess. Want to climb a rope? You are risking your life because of how tired you are. Need to do some roleplaying after the fight? The berserker is too tired to contribute. Need to keep watch at night or track something? The berserkers eyes are half closed. Another combat? Roll initiative at disadvantage and pray that you don't get grappled or webbed or have to make a perception check.
The biggest crux for me is that the image that the name berserker invokes. When I read a subclass called berserker I expect to be impressed. The subclass fails in that regard.
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Well, from 5th-level on every barbarian has advantage on their initiative rolls. Keeping that in mind, having disadvantage isn't that big a deal. They just end up rolling straight, which is what everyone else does anyway. The big issue is whether or not you think risking exhaustion is worth it. And if you don't, fine. It's clearly not for you. That's okay. Just as Baskin Robbins has 31 flavors, we have more character options just in the PHB than we shake a quarterstaff at:
That's 18,360 combinations; not bothering to count all the other ways characters can be customized. Features like their fighting style or spell selection, or even the dwarf's starting tool proficiency. My point is, it's no big deal if you, or anyone else, doesn't like one subclass. There's someone else out there that does, and that makes it okay.
That said, are there other ways of getting a Bonus Action attack? Yes, of course there are. Everyone has access to Two Weapon Fighting, but then the barbarian is using smaller weapons that deal at best 1d6 damage, and they're not adding their Strength modifier to every damage roll. They'd need to take two feats to even try to make up that gap. Or they could just take one feat, Polearm Master, but that comes with its own tradeoffs. They're stuck with a 1d10 weapon, plus 1d4 with their Bonus Action, instead of three 1d12 or 2d6 attacks. And that still costs a feat, which means it competes with literally every other feat they could take, never mind the ASI its replacing.
But feats are optional rules, and a berserker can still get that attack in without a feat. So while someone else is taking a feat (or two) to keep up, the berserker can do the same and still pull ahead. Or they can diversify and do something else.
The exhaustion mechanic doesn't play to everyone's idea of the fantasy, and I can see how that's frustrating. We also have to remember that names like "barbarian" and "berserker" are shorthand. They aren't necessarily representative of a specific fantasy. Barbarian literally just means someone who doesn't speak the language. I can't speak Cantonese or Mandarin fluently, so if I go to China then I'm a barbarian. Likewise, a berserker doesn't have to be the Old Norse berserkr. It could just as easily be the ríastrad of Cú Chulainn, Doctor Bruce Banner telling someone, "You wouldn't like me when I'm angry," or Son Gohan crying after Cell crushed the head of Android 16 with his foot.
A lot of us are also dissatisfied with the firearms rules from the DMG because they, too, don't live up to the fantasy we envision. We also might envision very different fantasies. That doesn't mean the designer's failed to achieve their goals. It's impossible to account for taste.
Plenty of them can, but an easy example of one is the Zealot. If you give me your assumptions about when exactly during the day you choose to frenzy, all else being equal, I'll make as many "standard" assumptions as I can and show you how badly a frenzied berserker functions, if you like. Since the first tier of exhaustion has no standard assumptions, I'll basically assume an attacker with something like ensnaring strike and go from there - really the only thing I have no idea how to make "reasonable" assumptions about is disadvantage on all ability checks for the rest of the day.
The berserker basically can't pull ahead. One of their many issues is that they get worse as they level compared to other Barbarian subclasses, because the others get their benefits every rage. The longer a berserker waits to frenzy, the worse they do by comparison, assuming crippled ability checks don't matter - and I've never even heard of a 5E campaign where that was true. And everything goes absolutely pear-shaped for them if they dare to frenzy a second time in a day.
Getting benefits every rage does not in fact make it better. And in fact is disingenuous. Your making the lie by omission that Berserker's only potential for subclass effects during rage comes from Frenzy. It in fact does not.
Not only does Berserker have Mindless Rage. But in a Twist of Irony it is one of the subclasses who's subclass abilities most function outside of a rage as well as in it. Having not only the typical level 10 ability that does that but it's level 14 ability also doesn't require rage. Something that no other Barbarian gets. All others require everything but one of their powers require them to Rage. Usually the 10th level power though Storm Herald is 6th. Or all of their powers require rage. the Battle Rager being the most egregious about this.
so it's easy to complain about Berserker's exhaustion level and ways you might not use it's power. Though the barbarian is full of ways to mitigate issues of a level of exhaustion. But it ironically is the one least bound by it's rage to be an offensive power house. Even with the complaint that you don't get to 14th level in your games. That is still something that is written into them.
Might keep in mind that persistant rage... That removes some restrictions on keeping rages going. Doesn't kick in until level 15.
now don't get me wrong. I do like constant little bumps to damage over a long period. It's often the side I'm forced to advocate for when trying to point out that something isn't as much better than something else. It's a nice thing to have. But for a minute each day. The Berserker doesn't do a little bit of Extra Damage. They hit a point where they are quickly doing a lot of extra damage. The only one that rivals those hits. particularly once things like GWM are thrown in really is the Zealot. And interestingly enough. it has no other abilities to increase damage built into it other than Divine Fury. Everything else is either defensives, support, or utility. And Other abilities about it are questionable in their usefulness because in general Barbarians tend to be rather hard to deplete their hit points and kill. So your often better in disabling them in other ways that the Zealot can't really protect against well or repeatedly. So you might use some of them more often when your raging. But over the long term your not necessarily getting the same usefulness as you would out of the Berserker in an ironic twist, particularly over a full max level campaign.
I am not. Jounichi made the case that a frenzied berserker out-DPRs other subclasses, and I responded in kind. The non-L3 abilities you're referring to aren't relevant to DPR.
This is true. Barbarians are good tanks, as I explicitly pointed out earlier in this thread. Mindless Rage is reasonably tanky - it just has no bearing on a DPR analysis. We can 100% discuss how tanky Berserkers are, if you like - their L6, L10, and L14 abilities are all designed for tanking.
Battleragers are out-of-band awful, yes, but you're wrong about them, and Berserkers aren't alone. Berserkers get non-rage benefits at levels 10 and 14; Totem Barbarians get non-rage benefits at 6 and 10, and Zealot Barbarians get non-rage benefits at 3 and 10. As you correctly point out, the standard number of non-rage benefits is 1, and the level you get it at varies: Battleragers at 14, Guardian at 10, and Beast, Storm, and Wild Magic at 6.
Rangers at level 10 and spellcasters at 9 if full, 17 if half (or 18 if half and multiclassed) can deal with exhaustion. All Barbarians can do is get advantage on some ability checks to reduce disadvantage to flat, which still means they're worse at those checks than when not exhausted, and all other checks are still crippled, including the most important ability check in the game, Perception.
Again, agreed. I never made the case they were offensive powerhouses - Jounichi did. In fact, they are demonstrably not offensive powerhouses, with some of the worst DPR going for any Barbarian subclass.
No, this is false. It's trivial to out-DPR a Berserker, because they dare not frenzy a bunch of times per day. Putting aside the challenge of objectively measuring how bad crippled ability checks are, starting at exhaustion 2 things start to get really bad, even ignoring the fact that if you're at exhaustion 2 today, you'll be at exhaustion 1 tomorrow.
What GWM does is make it harder for Beast Barbarians to compete, specifically, but simultaneously it reduces how competitive berserkers can be, since Barbarians are good at crit-fishing. Also potentially relevant to the analysis is that multiple Barbarian subclasses buff the party, so it's not feasible to objectively measure their DPR without making assumptions about party makeup; Zealots are one example of this, but not the only one. And, of course, different subclasses have different abilities kick in at different levels, so any analysis below level 14 intrinsically leaves out abilities that might be relevant.
I don't even really like Zealots. I brought them up as an example of a subclass that can out-DPR a Berserker, because they get a DPR ability at level 3, making analysis simpler. Zealots are particularly easy to compare to Berserkers - they only become very different in their L14 benefits. I maintain the best, most useful Barbarian subclass overall is Guardian, but it's impossible to discuss with objective math how good Clairvoyance or Augury 1/rest is. I just object to how many opinions you're ascribing to me in your post that I don't have.
Mindless rage does have an Affect on DPR. It blocks two of the most effective ways to kill Rage in a Barbarian and thus shut off their abilities, One of which potentially then turns that barbarian on the party.
It's a lie to say this isn't a factor that both Affects their Damage but their effectiveness in other ways as well. And this is independent of Frenzy. Your insistence that this has no value what so ever is purely by your white rooming of circumstances where you've decided that being charmed. Or even more importantly Being Feared has no actual applicable affect. Fear not only stops rage simply by making the Barbarian for at least a turn where you don't have to attack it and it can't effectively attack whatever feared it. It's very effective at shutting down the DPR of those affected by it by removing all the additional DPR benefits of other Barbarian abilities relying on rage which can suddenly make that barbarian a lot more manageable if you just give it a moment to lose it's Rage. And it's often a mental roll. Something that Barbarians aren't necessarily particularly suited for by default.
While Frightened isn't entirely all that common. This is a good thing. Both for the Barbarian in general and because of a few rare effects tied to the frightened condition like the Death Gaze of the Bodak. Which the Berserker is thankfully immune to when Raging. though with that particular one it is a Con save so it's not quite as dangerous for a Barbarian. Assume that it's using purely published stats for it and hasn't been altered to make it more challenging for the party at a particular table. Because the Bodak can kill parties if given any real turns thanks to the Fact that Death Gaze is not only a turnless ability but purely proximity based so it has high potential to fire off multiple turns and attempts to avoid this fate require basically self imposed temporary exhaustion to avoid thanks to the fact that you have to avert your gaze and thus take disadvantage.
But then it's really amazing how many Undead at CR 6 and above can ruin the day of a Barbarian. Either by taking control of them. Shutting down their rages through fear, paralyze, or stuns. Or just don't play fair in other ways. Fae are another one that tend to have a lot of charm based abilities to mess up the flow of many a Barbarian. As can Many a caster that does more than just Fireball and Invisibility.
This is why Mindless Rage can actually have a big effect on the DPR of a barbarian if we really are being practical. Now will these things come up all the time? Depends on your Campaign. But this is a notable effect on DPR. One that is in the Berserker's favor because your mitigating one of the biggest weaknesses of the Barbarian. Though Sadly not removing it completely.
I made my case because the berserker can output more damage than anyone else. They won't always do it, but when the chips are down and you need it, nobody brings it like they do. That's just a fact. Let's assume, for a moment, a conservative pre-Tasha's estimate: a Strength score of 15, a greataxe, and every attack hits even though none are critical hits. It's not necessarily "realistic," but it doesn't have to be. The point is to remove variables.
In terms of pure damage, the berserker has some clear strengths. It can do something no other barbarian subclass is capable of: make additional attacks with the business end of their weapon. If you're in a position where you're not worried about a point or two of exhaustion (BBEG fight at the end of the day, Wildemount's olisuba leaf), then it's probably fine to cut loose. And, yeah, if they ramp up then every other subclass basically struggles to compete (not that it needs to be a competition).
And I spent more time typing this out than I did actually running the numbers. Which just goes to show that people should stop listening to the "prevailing wisdom" of armchair theorists and just play.
Problem with this is you are ignoring feats which most tables play with.....
Polearm master already puts most barbs on par with Zerker without invoking the exhaustion mechanic.
An 8th level PAM Bear Totem vs Berzker Frenzy: (assuming 20 STR for both for sake of simplicity)
Bear:
2(1d10+7) + (1d4+7) = 34.5
Zerk = 3(2d6+7) = 42
So about 8 points per turn difference which is a lot....but you are also giving up resistance to all damage and you are also exhausted afterwards.
So it would only really be worth it to me if I was fighting 2 or less fights per day as DIS to your attacks at exhaustion level 3 will dramatically reduce your damage output.
Otherwise the PAM will pull ahead by fight 3.
Edit: weird, i read on phone and it only showed half the message.
Then PAM barb takes the same GWM feat? I mean its fair to say they both get a feat but I am also saying that feats play into the equation as well....
I am not saying bezerker is terrible by any means but its also just easy to get a BA attack or "extra" attack now with different subclasses so its 3rd level feature is not as unique.
Its much harder to get the other benefits from the other subclasses (Resistance from Bear, Spider Climb at will from Beast, Free Revify from Zealot) than what you can pick up a feat and do with Zerk.
Yeah, sure, but the main thing with PAM vs just a greataxe and bonus attack, is the PAM extra attack is much worse than a d12. Anyways like i edited, for some reason I didn't see the whole message so it just didn't come of good.
Anyways, if the PAM takes the same feat, they have used two feats while the berserker only used one so far. In addition the retaliation strike means another attack with a great axe and +10 from great weapon master.
Now, I think the biggest issue on these forums with the berserker is everyone compares to the berserker. And when they do they compare all the other subclasses to the berserker. It's basically like saying Battle master is the worst fighter class because the other fighters gets magic, better crit, unlimited advantage, guns, magic arrows and so on. They don't, they only get one of them. It's the same with the barbarians fortunately.
Yes, its harder to get the resistance from bear, but that goes for the zealot barbarian too, it doesn't have the resistance that bear totem does. Spider climb at will is awesome true, but they don't get the resistance from bear either, and bear totems don't get spiderclimb. Bear totems dont get free revives or spiderclimb. So no matter what you pick, someone will be better at something else, that's kinda the point on subclasses.
And the berserkers main subclass feature is: dishing out damage. And yes, they don't tank as well as a bear totem barbarian, but neither does beast barbarians. Arguably you could say zealots don't either but.. they get revived + that last insane ability that just lets them live forever is kinda tanky.
But the point is, if you want to be extra tanky, bear totems are hard to beat.
But damage wise, the only one that of the top of my hat comes closest is the zealot barbarian and considering their kinda tankiness they are one of the better subclasses in that sense. Still cant spiderclimb tho :p
A berserker might not deal this massive damage every battle, but the battles that count it will. And it will do it well. The best use is with a greataxe, because any potential crit benefits more from extra d12's than a few d6's. The amount of attacks, up to 4, with great weapon master is better than the others.
Also, there's one more point that's overlooked a lot. Mindless rage. You can't be charmed or frightened during your rage. It might not come up often but when you face that vampire lord, lich or even mind flayer, all those zealots, beast barbarians and totem warriors will come up so short it's not even funny.