I have a fourth level bugbear barbarian which is a blast to play because I really enjoy shoving and grappling. Even after I had decided to stick with barbarian all the way, I keep coming back to the idea that mixing in some strength rogue would be awesome. Expertise in Athletics is great for grappling/shoving, sneak attack + rage bonus damage (if I use a rapier with strength), cunning action for crazy mobility/keeping rage up even if I need to get away, and maybe even going so far as uncanny dodge to make me an even tankier monster.
If I wanted to pursue some rogue levels, when should I do that and how far should I go? What downsides am I not considering? Other thoughts?
Primal champion is amazing. It's the reason why I wanted to stick with barbarian to level 20, but it's so far away. In general, I just assume that I'll never get to level 20 and that even if I do the vast majority of time spent playing will be below level 20.
I didn't even know about the brawny feat, it seems really good. Sadly no UA allowed, but I do wonder if the one size larger thing stacks with the bugbear trait that does the same thing. If I could get brawny, I think that might quell my desire to multiclass.
If you multiclass out of barbarian, you'll never see Primal Champion.
If your DM allows UA, get the Brawny feat at 8th level--or now, if you only just got to 4th level.
What he said.
Not only is Primal Champion by far one of the best capstone abilities, you're also losing out on unlimited rages. I'd think twice about giving that up unless you're sure you won't take your character to 20 (which isn't uncommon; many adventures end at 10-15 and some players would rather start a new character.)
Cunning Action is a great feature but I think it's mostly redundant on a Barbarian; it's not worth derailing your progression for 2 levels. You already have increased speed and can always choose to throw a weapon or shoot a bow at a distant enemy to avoid losing Rage. The resistance from Rage also mitigates the need to Disengage, and if you take some damage while moving away you're meeting your Rage criteria for that turn and can then use your action to Dash. You're also losing your level 19 Ability Score Increase, on top of having lost Primal Champion. If you really want extra movement, see if your friendly party spellcaster would consider casting Longstrider on you?
If double proficiency in Athletics is your main goal, I'd definitely try to convince your DM to let you have the Brawny feat. Plus, there's a good chance it'll be in Xanathar's Guide to Everything in a few months.
Investing enough to get Uncanny Dodge could make for a strong tanking build and what you miss out on at levels 15-18 isn't critical. However the Defensive Duelist feat could achieve similar results without halting your Barbarian progression for 5 levels.
If I've talked you out of Cunning Action but you're still considering a 1 level dip, you might also consider Warlock. Hex grants you 1d6 on all your attacks instead of once per turn, and you can also grant the target disadvantage on either Strength or Dexterity checks to penalize their grappling rolls.
Under no circumstances should you multiclass before level 5, when you get Extra Attack and basically double your damage output. Note you also get Fast Movement then, which might help your mobility issues. Keep in mind you need your bonus action to Rage. Look at the level table for Barbarian and understand that every level you multi means missing out on something, or at least postponing it, including your fourth Rage per day at level 6. If your character concept calls for levels of Rogue, great, but everything is a tradeoff.
I personally don't worry about level 20, because I've never seen a character past level 12, but that might be my groups.
I 2nd ratwhowouldbeking's comments... don't MClass until after level 5.
IF you do M.Class to Rogue (remember you need Str 13 & Dex 13).
1) To optimize you're going to need to use a weapon no bigger then a Rapier, because it has Finesse. (possibly 2 short swords if you want to Two Weapon Fighting).
2) Reckless Attack will become your new best friend because it gives you Advantage on every attack for the round! This will add your Sneak Attack damage to 1 attack.
3) Remember if someone draws an Attack of Opportunity and you have Advantage on the attack, you ALSO get Sneak Attack. (It's per turn not per round)
I actually disagree with the others. I think Cunning Action could very easily be worth it. If you're using Reckless Attack, you don't want to give away free AoO. Yes InquisitiveCoder is correct, the damage is mitigated, but 0 damage is always better then any damage. Plus you can use it to Dash for free or Disengage for free making you a VERY mobile character. Even Wizards probably can't hide from you in the back. No one except a Monk could escape your range. That said every level of Rogue cuts into your Rages and Barbarian features which are all pretty awesome. (all for an extra 1d6 or 2d6 a turn...) IF you did go all the way for 5 Barbarian and 5 Rogue Uncanny Dodge (half damage) stacks with Rage (resistance). Of course then you have to decide what Archtype fits a Barbarian.
Note: This is very probably *not* an optimal build... but it could be a fun/interesting build, and not lose to much from optimum.
I hadn't considered defensive duelist. That is a strong option especially as the proficiency bonus gets higher. That would mean that you could cut out rogue 5 in favor of rogue 4. If you take exactly 4 (or 1) levels of rogue you still get 5 ASIs. Still a hefty rogue investment, but not losing that ASI makes it more palatable.
Taking a level of warlock just for hex seems like a terrible idea for a barbarian. You can't cast spells or concentrate on them while raging and you need 13 charisma. Even if these weren't a problem, magic initiate is much more efficient.
I am totally on board with waiting until after barbarian 5 or 6 to multiclass. The difficulty is that every level of barbarian and rogue seems to offer something great. There's no obvious break point in either.
2d6 from sneak attacks is nothing to sneeze at. That's an average 7 bonus damage if one attack hits. Compare that to the 8 rage bonus damage (at high level) if both attacks hit. That being said, I'm not that concerned about DPS. I know that the great axe is a mathematically better choice than the battleaxe, but I use the battleaxe for the versatile property (so I can grapple with my free hand).
You're right about Hex, I got mixed up with the Wild Shape rules (which forbid spellcasting but not concentration) and the Rage + Spiritual Weapon combo (which doesn't require concentration). Sorry about that.
If you're going to go 4 levels in, you might also consider 4 levels in Fighter or 4 levels in Monk. Dueling Fighting Style would add 2 damage to each of your hits while using the battleaxe one-handed and if you choose Battle Master you'd get 4d8 to spend on combat maneuvers every short rest.
4 levels in Monk would get you Unarmored Movement, Deflect Missiles (which is a natural complement to Defensive Duelist), and 4 ki points per short rest which you can use to Dash, Disengage, Dodge or Flurry of Blows (which doesn't require monk weapons and gives you even more hits for your rage damage bonus, though this isn't as good without Tavern Brawler.) Open Hand Technique also lets you pseudo-Disengage by taking away their reaction, and has the nice side benefit of shutting down enemy counterspells. The multiclassing requirements are a bit steep though.
I have a fourth level bugbear barbarian which is a blast to play because I really enjoy shoving and grappling. Even after I had decided to stick with barbarian all the way, I keep coming back to the idea that mixing in some strength rogue would be awesome. Expertise in Athletics is great for grappling/shoving, sneak attack + rage bonus damage (if I use a rapier with strength), cunning action for crazy mobility/keeping rage up even if I need to get away, and maybe even going so far as uncanny dodge to make me an even tankier monster.
If I wanted to pursue some rogue levels, when should I do that and how far should I go? What downsides am I not considering? Other thoughts?
If you multiclass out of barbarian, you'll never see Primal Champion.
If your DM allows UA, get the Brawny feat at 8th level--or now, if you only just got to 4th level.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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Primal champion is amazing. It's the reason why I wanted to stick with barbarian to level 20, but it's so far away. In general, I just assume that I'll never get to level 20 and that even if I do the vast majority of time spent playing will be below level 20.
I didn't even know about the brawny feat, it seems really good. Sadly no UA allowed, but I do wonder if the one size larger thing stacks with the bugbear trait that does the same thing. If I could get brawny, I think that might quell my desire to multiclass.
Under no circumstances should you multiclass before level 5, when you get Extra Attack and basically double your damage output. Note you also get Fast Movement then, which might help your mobility issues. Keep in mind you need your bonus action to Rage. Look at the level table for Barbarian and understand that every level you multi means missing out on something, or at least postponing it, including your fourth Rage per day at level 6. If your character concept calls for levels of Rogue, great, but everything is a tradeoff.
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile.
I personally don't worry about level 20, because I've never seen a character past level 12, but that might be my groups.
I 2nd ratwhowouldbeking's comments... don't MClass until after level 5.
IF you do M.Class to Rogue (remember you need Str 13 & Dex 13).
1) To optimize you're going to need to use a weapon no bigger then a Rapier, because it has Finesse. (possibly 2 short swords if you want to Two Weapon Fighting).
2) Reckless Attack will become your new best friend because it gives you Advantage on every attack for the round! This will add your Sneak Attack damage to 1 attack.
3) Remember if someone draws an Attack of Opportunity and you have Advantage on the attack, you ALSO get Sneak Attack. (It's per turn not per round)
I actually disagree with the others. I think Cunning Action could very easily be worth it. If you're using Reckless Attack, you don't want to give away free AoO. Yes InquisitiveCoder is correct, the damage is mitigated, but 0 damage is always better then any damage. Plus you can use it to Dash for free or Disengage for free making you a VERY mobile character. Even Wizards probably can't hide from you in the back. No one except a Monk could escape your range. That said every level of Rogue cuts into your Rages and Barbarian features which are all pretty awesome. (all for an extra 1d6 or 2d6 a turn...) IF you did go all the way for 5 Barbarian and 5 Rogue Uncanny Dodge (half damage) stacks with Rage (resistance). Of course then you have to decide what Archtype fits a Barbarian.
Note: This is very probably *not* an optimal build... but it could be a fun/interesting build, and not lose to much from optimum.
I hadn't considered defensive duelist. That is a strong option especially as the proficiency bonus gets higher. That would mean that you could cut out rogue 5 in favor of rogue 4. If you take exactly 4 (or 1) levels of rogue you still get 5 ASIs. Still a hefty rogue investment, but not losing that ASI makes it more palatable.
Taking a level of warlock just for hex seems like a terrible idea for a barbarian. You can't cast spells or concentrate on them while raging and you need 13 charisma. Even if these weren't a problem, magic initiate is much more efficient.
I am totally on board with waiting until after barbarian 5 or 6 to multiclass. The difficulty is that every level of barbarian and rogue seems to offer something great. There's no obvious break point in either.
2d6 from sneak attacks is nothing to sneeze at. That's an average 7 bonus damage if one attack hits. Compare that to the 8 rage bonus damage (at high level) if both attacks hit. That being said, I'm not that concerned about DPS. I know that the great axe is a mathematically better choice than the battleaxe, but I use the battleaxe for the versatile property (so I can grapple with my free hand).
Lots of great discussion.