I have been playing with a build for a Faux-Paladin as a Bard and I wanted to post my idea here and see if I'm missing anything important.
I've realized that Bards are actually great "leader" characters and have lots of cool abilities that buff the party. I've wanted to try to make a Mounted Combat character and due to the fact that I believe mounts themselves have a low survivability, buying/catching/training a mount just isn't going to be super efficient as I don't want to distract from the course of the game itself just to keep mounted. Also because I missread the rule for a long time (I thought the mount had to act on it's own turn) I thought mounted combat was terrible. With Magical Secrets a Bard can take spells from other classes.
So, I've been working on a plan to try to make a Bard as a mounted combatant. The idea is the Bard thinks of himself as a Knight in Shining Armor or "Gentleman of Adventure" The Mount will use it's Action to Disengage, so it doesn't take AoOs. The Bard will race into melee, attack with Booming Blade and ride out, forced movement so no AoOs. This makes the character a "Skirmisher" someone who has a high mobility and runs in and out of combat instead of a Tank. That a said, he's no glass cannon with a 17-18 AC with a Shield. The Stat Requirements are Dex: 14 (max medium armor) and Charisma:16 (this is the primary attack stat for spells and weapons). Every other stat is pretty mutable, but I figure I'll keep Con and Wisdom as my next most important stat.
1st lvl I'm going to be more in the back, using dex weapon with a +4 to hit or spells with only leather armor AC is 13. 2nd level HexBlade means I can swap out light armor for medium armor and a shield, and make my primary weapon my Hex Blade so I attack/damage with Charisma. I'll also get Eldtrich Blast for long ranger attacks as well as Booming Blade. 3rd to 6th: is pretty standard progress. If I can keep a mount alive or buy new ones as they die. 7th: I finally et Find Steed so when the mount dies, I spend a 2nd lvl spell to summon a new one. I use Find Familiar with Booming Blade to always have Adv on the attack roll. 8th: I swap Find Steed for Find Greater Steed. Much more cool options here!
The negative about this class is the build doesn't really get where it wants to be until 7th lvl, which is pretty high level in my opinion. That said you can always be pushing for it until you get there.
Feats: I realized that Warcaster isn't really that important. I don't plan on using Concentration spells and Warcaster only really helps me for Reaction spells (as I will have a had full with a weapon and shield). If I want to cast a spell, I can as a free action put my weapon away and cast it. Next turn as a free action I can take it out and attack. This means without Warcaster I can't use Shield or Hellish Rebuke. I'll probably prioritize ASIs over Feats as Charisma is my spells and melee attack with Hex Warrior. IF I start out Human I might take Mounted Combat or Inspiring Leader (remember I can give Inspiring Leader Temp HP to my mount) I do think I'd rather play this as a Halfing Outrider character and be a Lightfoot Halfing. I can start with a Mule for a mount at 1st lvl and it means I'm not restricted by my mount being a dungeon (ie, I'm small and my mount is Medium, so I'll fit in a dungeon) Mules have a lot of really good Advantages for a Mount because they "sure-footed". Halfing Outrider was one of my favorite concepts in 3rd and have been trying to figure out how to import it into 5th.
I think that's everything about the character build, so I was curious what the forum thinks.
Looks pretty good overall. Though before proceeding with the character, there are some things to consider with your DM:
Barding - As you will want to toughen up your mount, barding is an obvious choice. But by RAW, mounts aren't proficient with armor except for a warhorse perhaps. So you will want to know if your DM will penalize your mount due to the lack of proficiency and if so, will they offer some sort of training to gain proficiency.
Magical Secrets - By RAW, you can't swap find steed with find greater steed as you can only swap out a spell gained via magical secrets with a spell on your bard list. So I would confirm with your DM that they will allow you to swap those spells when the time comes.
Opportunity Attacks - While you have already provided a way of dealing with this for your mount, there may come a time when you prefer something over Disengage. And in instances of that, by RAW if your mount provokes an AoO then the attacker can choose you instead. So I'd confirm that your DM is using that rule so you aren't caught off guard in the heat of battle.
Feats - While mounted, some feats may not work the same as they usually would when you are unmounted. Therefore you will want to discuss with your DM how a feat may or may not act while you are mounted before choosing any.
Besides that, I love the idea of a halfling knight (Sir Didymus would approve!) and have even come up with my own character concepts for such. Though at the time of his initial creation, I had chosen a goat as his noble (albeit often drunk) steed as I was considering cost more so than carrying capacity or hit points. So my knight (whenever I can play them) may take up the mule as his steed instead of his trusty goat.
Any ideas on what spells you would grab besides what you've already listed?
Thanks for checking my work and looking for things I missed.
Re: Magical Secrets: I actually Sage Advice dives Magical Secrets: https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/12/13/a-spell-learned-via-magical-secrets/ RAW: Magical Secrets count as Bard Spells and so can be retrained upon gaining a level. If they didn't rule this way it would be very out of character for this edition.
Re: Barding I'm torn on Barding until I can cast Find Steed. If I have barding and my mount dies it's going to be so large to be uncarryable without a cart. Once I have Find Steed, I just need a 2nd (or 4th) lvl spell open. It costs 4xNormal, so Leather and Hide both cost 40 gold and give 11+Dex and 12+Dex(max:2). So for most mount Hide is the cheapest choice. At that point I guess it doesn't matter if you have to leave it behind. The next step up in armor class costs 200 (chain shirt/scale mail)-300 gold (chain mail). Until you get magical barding, auto scales to fit creatures, you have to buy new barding with each new type of mount. If the DM penalizes you for Barding then... It's rather counter intuitive. What constitutes a mount getting access to it? It's petty gate-keeping and then I'll be glad to have the summon-able mount so I only lose a spell slot. It's DisAdv on attack rolls (not an issue it doesn't attack), ability checks and throws (so that would hurt).
Re: Opportunity Attacks There is always the chance that I might want to do something other then Disengage. My basic assumption is if I'm not entering melee, then the mount is Dodging, unless it needs to Dash. If they attack me, well I probably have more HP then my mount and a better AC so it's probably preferable! That's always a risk that if the mount provokes an AoO it could go toward me or it (unless I have Mounted Combat and I can force the attack to me).
P.S. I love the idea of the Goat, as they cost 1 gold instead of 8. I like the idea of having some spare mounts when the first one dies... plus more creature to carry the party's stuff. In one of our games our mule (which pulled the party's cart) was squished by a giant's rock. The party Death Cleric raised it as a zombie with Animate Dead. Technically Animate Dead says medium or small humanoid corpse, but our GM decided that's stupid because how else can you get an Skeleton Warhorse?! So, we have a zombie mule pulling out cart.
My biggest disappointment is the character isn't AL-legal. It needs Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade to keep up damage in melee, and requires the Hex Blade and Find Greater Steed from XgtE, and those cantrips weren't reprinted in that book.
Mage Armor is a nice alternative to barding if your party members are feeling generous and are at a level where using up a 1st level slot isn't a big deal.
Re: Magical Secrets: I actually Sage Advice dives Magical Secrets: https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/12/13/a-spell-learned-via-magical-secrets/ RAW: Magical Secrets count as Bard Spells and so can be retrained upon gaining a level. If they didn't rule this way it would be very out of character for this edition.
This is where I wish he was more specific because a DM could say this, "Yes, a spell gained through magical secrets can be replaced by a bard spell when you level up since such a spell is considered a bard spell. However, as per RAW when replacing a bard spell when leveling up it MUST be from the bard spell list. And since magical secrets purpose is to grab spells from other classes spell lists, you can't swap out a magical secret for another since spells from magical secrets inherently come from other classes spell lists."
Is that a nitpicky response from a DM? Yes. Is it technically valid? Yes. Is what Crawford said specific enough to avoid this? Not really. And to go further, another person added that a recently released (2017) Sage Advice Compendium in a roundabout way says that no you can't replace a magical secrets spell with another magical secrets spell by saying "But it must be replaced by a bard spell, according to the rule in the Spellcasting feature." which is "replace it with another spell from the bard spell list" and as I said above, the spells gained from magical secrets traditionally don't come from the bard spell list as such be a huge waste of a class feature.
The obvious exception to the above is replacing a magical secret from any spell list with another magical secret from the bard spell list. But who'd ever do that?
Now don't get me wrong, if I was the DM I'd allow the swap. But some DM's might not if they are very strictly going by the letter of RAW. Plus there are story reasons I could imagine a DM coming up with to justifiably explain why you shouldn't be able to swap. Hell, a DM might even make you do a quest to gain your magical secrets spell. So I'd confirm with your DM on this and not assume anything regardless of what anyone has said on the subject.
If the DM penalizes you for Barding then... It's rather counter intuitive. What constitutes a mount getting access to it? It's petty gate-keeping and then I'll be glad to have the summon-able mount so I only lose a spell slot. It's DisAdv on attack rolls (not an issue it doesn't attack), ability checks and throws (so that would hurt).
I agree but by RAW, mounts are not proficient with armor. Yes, it was made for them to wear. But such doesn't inherently give proficiency otherwise wizards be running around in full plate loving life, as proficiency is earned in some fashion and not automatically given. Is such a bit nitpicky? Yes but believe me, mounted combat could get way more nitpicky. For example, it's one thing for an animal to be trained to be ridden and another thing entirely for an animal to be trained to be ridden in battle. Because an animal would naturally want to flee when surrounded by danger, therefore require training to enable them to remain steady similar to how a soldier needs to be trained to also not lose their composer. And in the game, this distinction is very clearly made by gold value difference between a riding horse and a warhorse. For a warhorse is as its name suggest is trained for battle in a multitude of ways, one of which is its increased carrying capacity to reflect the heavier weight a soldier would bring it with their armor and weapons as well as the extra weight it has to bear if it also is armored. And mind you it still moves as fast as a riding horse despite the extra weight, showing just how much stronger it is in comparison.
Granted with the spells that summon mounts, I'd say you could assume those mounts won't freak out in battle due to the bond the spell creates with the caster and their mount. Similar to how wouldn't expect a rangers companion to run away due to the strong bond between them.
So like with magical secrets, I'd still assume nothing and clarify with your DM when it comes to barding.
P.S. I love the idea of the Goat, as they cost 1 gold instead of 8. I like the idea of having some spare mounts when the first one dies... plus more creature to carry the party's stuff.
Thanks! And yes, goats and other similar creatures are great for alleviating encumbrance issues presuming your DM makes such a thing in your game.
In one of our games our mule (which pulled the party's cart) was squished by a giant's rock. The party Death Cleric raised it as a zombie with Animate Dead. Technically Animate Dead says medium or small humanoid corpse, but our GM decided that's stupid because how else can you get an Skeleton Warhorse?! So, we have a zombie mule pulling out cart.
And then 24 hours later, you have a rampaging zombie donkey to deal with. Haha! Though if I was DM, I'd probably extend control of it to at least 48 hours since as it's not a humanoid it should, in turn, be easier to command therefore extending the length of its control.
My biggest disappointment is the character isn't AL-legal. It needs Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade to keep up damage in melee, and requires the Hex Blade and Find Greater Steed from XgtE, and those cantrips weren't reprinted in that book.
Ya, I don't understand why they excluded those spells in XGtE. But hey, you can always make an AL legal version.
Mage Armor is a nice alternative to barding if your party members are feeling generous and are at a level where using up a 1st level slot isn't a big deal.
That is a good way to go until barding is more feasible.
I just saw this thread and it's like you're reading my mind. I hadn't considered mixing hexblade in there. My thought was to go halfling valor bard, take a 15 strength, take the heavy armor feat, and use regular animals until level 10 when you can get find greater steed.
I might have missed it, but nobody mentioned using a lance. That's one of my top reasons for wanting to go mounted. I need more d12s in my life and with the benefit of reach, my mount will no longer have to disengage.
So I thought of that, but there is a problem to be considered.
In order to keep up with damage after 5th the build needs Booming Blade, but it only has a 5' reach. The Lance on the other hand attacks at Disadvantage within 5'.
So you would need the feat Spell Sniper to double the range.
That said, from lvl 2+, make the Lance your Hex blade, at 5th take Spell Sniper, and at 9th Mounted Combat.
Addendum. I've realized that if you put 3 lvls in Sorcerer, take the metamagic Twin Spell and Quicken Sorry.
You can spend 1 point to Twin Spell Booking Blade to attack two targets, or 2 points to Quicken Sorry to attack one target twice.
What are you benchmarking the damage against that you think booming blade us so necessary? I think a paladin is the only legitimate benchmark here otherwise the standard is too stringent or too relaxed. Maybe that is what you're comparing against; I haven't done the math.
Booming blade certainly does add lots of damage, but is there some other way to achieve that? I'm thinking about trying to work in a smite somehow.
The build at the top is a Lore Bard not a Blade Bard, so he never gets "Extra Attack".
The build uses Booming Blade for 2 parts. 1) The Mount allow a free Diengage, so it can run into combat, hit it and run out... requiring them to move if they want to be in melee. 2) At 5th, 11th, and 17th, Booming Blade increases the damage another 1d8 to the basic attack.
This is to deal with the fact that as I said the build never gets "Extra Attack" and so it's basic attacks are limited.
I understood the basics of the build. I was just wondering when you said that booming blade was necessary to "keep up with damage", with what is the build trying to keep up?
It's less thematic, but have you considered ditching the mount altogether and using a goblin instead of a halfling? That would still let you manipulate booming blade without as much fuss. I don't know if booming blade is on the bard spell list, but either way that could allow you to grab something else paladiny besides find steed.
I have been playing with a build for a Faux-Paladin as a Bard and I wanted to post my idea here and see if I'm missing anything important.
I've realized that Bards are actually great "leader" characters and have lots of cool abilities that buff the party.
I've wanted to try to make a Mounted Combat character and due to the fact that I believe mounts themselves have a low survivability, buying/catching/training a mount just isn't going to be super efficient as I don't want to distract from the course of the game itself just to keep mounted. Also because I missread the rule for a long time (I thought the mount had to act on it's own turn) I thought mounted combat was terrible.
With Magical Secrets a Bard can take spells from other classes.
So, I've been working on a plan to try to make a Bard as a mounted combatant. The idea is the Bard thinks of himself as a Knight in Shining Armor or "Gentleman of Adventure"
The Mount will use it's Action to Disengage, so it doesn't take AoOs. The Bard will race into melee, attack with Booming Blade and ride out, forced movement so no AoOs.
This makes the character a "Skirmisher" someone who has a high mobility and runs in and out of combat instead of a Tank. That a said, he's no glass cannon with a 17-18 AC with a Shield.
The Stat Requirements are Dex: 14 (max medium armor) and Charisma:16 (this is the primary attack stat for spells and weapons). Every other stat is pretty mutable, but I figure I'll keep Con and Wisdom as my next most important stat.
Here is my lvl by lvl breakdown
01st: Bard:1: 8+CON HP; 2 Cantrips ?, 4 Spells Known: Healing Word, Thunderwave, Detect Magic, & Faerie Fire, Caster lvl 1
02nd: Bard:1/Warlock:1: 13+CON*lvl HP; Patron: Hexblade: Hexblade's Curse, Hex Warrior, Pact Magic: Cantrip: Eldritch Blast, Booming Blade, 2 Spells Known (Shield & Wrathful Smite)
03rd: Bard:2/Warlock:1: 18+CON*lvl HP; Jack of All Trades, Song of Rest, +1 Spells Known, Caster lvl 2
04th: Bard:3/Warlock:1: 23+CON*lvl HP; Expertise(2), College of Lore: Bonus Proficiency(3), Cutting Words, +1 Spells Known, Caster lvl 3
05th: Bard:4/Warlock:1: 28+CON*lvl HP; ASI/Feat, +1 Cantrip, +1 Spells Known, Caster lvl 4
06th: Bard:5/Warlock:1: 33+CON*lvl HP; Bardic Inspiration (d8), Font of Inspiration, +1 Spells Known (Tiny Hut!), Caster lvl 5
07th: Bard:6/Warlock:1: 38+CON*lvl HP; Countercharm, Additional Magical Secrets (2): Find Steed & Find Familiar, +1 Spells Known, Caster lvl 6
08th: Bard:7/Warlock:1: 43+CON*lvl HP; (Upgrade Find Steed to Find Greater Steed with 4th lvl Spells), +1 Spells Known, Caster lvl 6
09th: Bard:8/Warlock:1: 48+CON*lvl HP; ASI/Feat
10th: Bard:8/Warlock:2: 53+CON*lvl HP; 1 Invocation
1st lvl I'm going to be more in the back, using dex weapon with a +4 to hit or spells with only leather armor AC is 13.
2nd level HexBlade means I can swap out light armor for medium armor and a shield, and make my primary weapon my Hex Blade so I attack/damage with Charisma. I'll also get Eldtrich Blast for long ranger attacks as well as Booming Blade.
3rd to 6th: is pretty standard progress. If I can keep a mount alive or buy new ones as they die.
7th: I finally et Find Steed so when the mount dies, I spend a 2nd lvl spell to summon a new one. I use Find Familiar with Booming Blade to always have Adv on the attack roll.
8th: I swap Find Steed for Find Greater Steed. Much more cool options here!
The negative about this class is the build doesn't really get where it wants to be until 7th lvl, which is pretty high level in my opinion. That said you can always be pushing for it until you get there.
Feats: I realized that Warcaster isn't really that important. I don't plan on using Concentration spells and Warcaster only really helps me for Reaction spells (as I will have a had full with a weapon and shield). If I want to cast a spell, I can as a free action put my weapon away and cast it. Next turn as a free action I can take it out and attack. This means without Warcaster I can't use Shield or Hellish Rebuke.
I'll probably prioritize ASIs over Feats as Charisma is my spells and melee attack with Hex Warrior.
IF I start out Human I might take Mounted Combat or Inspiring Leader (remember I can give Inspiring Leader Temp HP to my mount)
I do think I'd rather play this as a Halfing Outrider character and be a Lightfoot Halfing. I can start with a Mule for a mount at 1st lvl and it means I'm not restricted by my mount being a dungeon (ie, I'm small and my mount is Medium, so I'll fit in a dungeon) Mules have a lot of really good Advantages for a Mount because they "sure-footed". Halfing Outrider was one of my favorite concepts in 3rd and have been trying to figure out how to import it into 5th.
I think that's everything about the character build, so I was curious what the forum thinks.
Looks pretty good overall. Though before proceeding with the character, there are some things to consider with your DM:
Besides that, I love the idea of a halfling knight (Sir Didymus would approve!) and have even come up with my own character concepts for such. Though at the time of his initial creation, I had chosen a goat as his noble (albeit often drunk) steed as I was considering cost more so than carrying capacity or hit points. So my knight (whenever I can play them) may take up the mule as his steed instead of his trusty goat.
Any ideas on what spells you would grab besides what you've already listed?
Thanks for checking my work and looking for things I missed.
Re: Magical Secrets:
I actually Sage Advice dives Magical Secrets: https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/12/13/a-spell-learned-via-magical-secrets/
RAW: Magical Secrets count as Bard Spells and so can be retrained upon gaining a level.
If they didn't rule this way it would be very out of character for this edition.
Re: Barding
I'm torn on Barding until I can cast Find Steed. If I have barding and my mount dies it's going to be so large to be uncarryable without a cart. Once I have Find Steed, I just need a 2nd (or 4th) lvl spell open.
It costs 4xNormal, so Leather and Hide both cost 40 gold and give 11+Dex and 12+Dex(max:2). So for most mount Hide is the cheapest choice. At that point I guess it doesn't matter if you have to leave it behind. The next step up in armor class costs 200 (chain shirt/scale mail)-300 gold (chain mail). Until you get magical barding, auto scales to fit creatures, you have to buy new barding with each new type of mount.
If the DM penalizes you for Barding then... It's rather counter intuitive. What constitutes a mount getting access to it? It's petty gate-keeping and then I'll be glad to have the summon-able mount so I only lose a spell slot.
It's DisAdv on attack rolls (not an issue it doesn't attack), ability checks and throws (so that would hurt).
Re: Opportunity Attacks
There is always the chance that I might want to do something other then Disengage. My basic assumption is if I'm not entering melee, then the mount is Dodging, unless it needs to Dash. If they attack me, well I probably have more HP then my mount and a better AC so it's probably preferable! That's always a risk that if the mount provokes an AoO it could go toward me or it (unless I have Mounted Combat and I can force the attack to me).
P.S. I love the idea of the Goat, as they cost 1 gold instead of 8. I like the idea of having some spare mounts when the first one dies... plus more creature to carry the party's stuff.
In one of our games our mule (which pulled the party's cart) was squished by a giant's rock. The party Death Cleric raised it as a zombie with Animate Dead. Technically Animate Dead says medium or small humanoid corpse, but our GM decided that's stupid because how else can you get an Skeleton Warhorse?! So, we have a zombie mule pulling out cart.
My biggest disappointment is the character isn't AL-legal. It needs Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade to keep up damage in melee, and requires the Hex Blade and Find Greater Steed from XgtE, and those cantrips weren't reprinted in that book.
Mage Armor is a nice alternative to barding if your party members are feeling generous and are at a level where using up a 1st level slot isn't a big deal.
I just saw this thread and it's like you're reading my mind. I hadn't considered mixing hexblade in there. My thought was to go halfling valor bard, take a 15 strength, take the heavy armor feat, and use regular animals until level 10 when you can get find greater steed.
I might have missed it, but nobody mentioned using a lance. That's one of my top reasons for wanting to go mounted. I need more d12s in my life and with the benefit of reach, my mount will no longer have to disengage.
So I thought of that, but there is a problem to be considered.
In order to keep up with damage after 5th the build needs Booming Blade, but it only has a 5' reach. The Lance on the other hand attacks at Disadvantage within 5'.
So you would need the feat Spell Sniper to double the range.
That said, from lvl 2+, make the Lance your Hex blade, at 5th take Spell Sniper, and at 9th Mounted Combat.
Addendum. I've realized that if you put 3 lvls in Sorcerer, take the metamagic Twin Spell and Quicken Sorry.
You can spend 1 point to Twin Spell Booking Blade to attack two targets, or 2 points to Quicken Sorry to attack one target twice.
What are you benchmarking the damage against that you think booming blade us so necessary? I think a paladin is the only legitimate benchmark here otherwise the standard is too stringent or too relaxed. Maybe that is what you're comparing against; I haven't done the math.
Booming blade certainly does add lots of damage, but is there some other way to achieve that? I'm thinking about trying to work in a smite somehow.
The build at the top is a Lore Bard not a Blade Bard, so he never gets "Extra Attack".
The build uses Booming Blade for 2 parts.
1) The Mount allow a free Diengage, so it can run into combat, hit it and run out... requiring them to move if they want to be in melee.
2) At 5th, 11th, and 17th, Booming Blade increases the damage another 1d8 to the basic attack.
This is to deal with the fact that as I said the build never gets "Extra Attack" and so it's basic attacks are limited.
I understood the basics of the build. I was just wondering when you said that booming blade was necessary to "keep up with damage", with what is the build trying to keep up?
It's less thematic, but have you considered ditching the mount altogether and using a goblin instead of a halfling? That would still let you manipulate booming blade without as much fuss. I don't know if booming blade is on the bard spell list, but either way that could allow you to grab something else paladiny besides find steed.