In planning out a new bard to play in a campaign, I found an easy way to make bards stronger. I think that everyone can agree that the capstone ability for Bards is lackluster to say in the least. In seeing that, I immediately wanted to check for potential one-level dips in other classes to change it up and try to get a little more out of it. If you take a level in another full caster (cleric, druid, sorcerer, warlock, wizard) before being a 6th level Lore Bard or a 10th level Bard of another college, you change what level of spells are available for you to take. Now, you delay it by a level, but as a lore bard, you can take 4th level spells whereas before, you were only able to take 1st-3rd level spells. While this may not seem like a huge deal, it gives the bard access to a level higher spells for the Magical Secrets feature at 10th and 14th bard levels. As a 6th level Lore Bard, 7th level Spellcaster, you can also take powerful 4th level spells from the Paladin and Ranger classes, spells that weren't meant to be had at 7th level. Some notable examples of useful 4th level spells are Aura of Life, Conjure Woodland Beings, Find Greater Steed, Greater Invisibility, Polymorph, and Sickening Radiance, to name a few. The Feature was not designed to allow for this, but is easily achieved. Other benefits of multiclassing are potentially higher AC from Cleric and Dragonic Sorcerer, and an expanded spell list to choose from. Outside of slightly delaying your other class features in order to buff one that happens 2-3 times, there are few downsides. Now, if you multiclass into a Sorcerer or Warlock, you have to have a story reason to do so most of the time. Some DMs may not allow for multiclassing in general, or specifically this sort of multiclassing to abuse mechanics. If you multiclass into Druid, you don't get a whole lot out of it outside of some spells like Goodberry. Multiclassing into Cleric can give better armor and solid support spells, although you have to deal with the spells using Wisdom instead of Charisma like with the Druid. Wizard uses intelligence instead of Charisma, but gives the broadest range of spells and a 1st level slot back on a short rest. Overall, I feel like this is an easy way to increase the overall power of bards without giving up very much. I want to see if anyone else has any thoughts on it or ideas for more spells to take. Thanks for reading.
EDIT: It has been pointed out to me by numerous people that this doesn't work, and after looking into this, they are right. I apologize for any misleading I may have caused.
Spells Known and Prepared. You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class.
That means your multiclass spell slots don't factor into which spells you can learn through Magical Secrets. They likewise don't factor into what spells you can cast from a spell scroll without having to make an ability check.
Actually, I don't think this is the case. All that magical secrets says is that it has to be at a level that you can cast, not that it has to be from being a bard. I could be wrong, but I don't think that I am.
Spell of a level you can cast, not spell of a level you have spell slots for. A Bard lvl 10 / Sorcerer lvl 5 can cast 4th lvl Bard spells and 3rd lvl sorcerer spells despite the presence of 8th lvl spell slots. Upcasting lower level spells does not count for that. As for multiclassing, a level of sorcerer is very useful if you ever run into a nice staff like fire or power.
All that magical secrets says is that it has to be at a level that you can cast
Yes, and you determine that for each class individually. The multiclassing rules will never give you access to spells of a level higher than your individual classes would be able to cast.
I think that everyone can agree that the capstone ability for Bards is lackluster to say in the least.
Three really quick things. Capstone abilities are a Pathfinder feature, not a D&D one. Level 20 bards come with an additional level 7 spell slot, which is pretty amazing when coupled with Magical Secrets. And most games don't make it to level 20; most end around level 10 or so, so saying you should dip early because you don't like level 20 misses out on the impact of the dip at early levels.
Now, even if this plan was viable by GM approval/houserules? I'd like to note that some of your suggestions, specifically Polymorph and Greater Invisibility, are already on the bard list, or worse off than taking a the Fireball spell. With the exception of Find Greater Steed (which is a neat spell, but has definite limitations), there's an opportunity cost compared to other spells the bard has needs to be noted, both in terms of per-turn casting, and in terms of Concentration. And in terms of spell slots - remember that, unless you reach level 18, you're only going to have one level 6 spell slot. So, having access to level 6 magic with Magical Secrets early is held back by the fact that bards are probably going to want to be casting their own spells. Whereas taking level 3~5 spells then gives you lots of spell slots to use. With the Valor and Sword bards, I feel compelled to note that you're likely going to want something like Searing Smite or Haste, things that boost your combat ability, which is severely lacking at higher spell levels.
I can't really see this as making the bard stronger overall, even if allowed. Access to more spells are nice, admittedly, and allows for more character variety, but the costs and drawbacks are notable.
Superior Inspiration: At 20th level, when you roll initiative and have no uses of Bardic Inspiration left, you regain one use.
Superior Inspiration is a bit weak for a level 20 ability. But it's still an extra d12 to most d20 rolls for an ally, or through Cutting Words it will take a d12 from an enemies roll. Also, after level 14 you can use it on your own ability checks.
One use is ridiculously weak. Compare to some other class capstones. I would grab a level or two in another class sometime in my Bardic carreer. Probably a sorcerer. Depending on my bardic archetype.
You also get another 7th level spell at level 20. That's actually a pretty major benefit - spells at levels 6+ are massive game changers, and having access to another is huge. For some reason, people never seem to mention that little detail when talking about level 20 casters.
You also get another 7th level spell at level 20. That's actually a pretty major benefit - spells at levels 6+ are massive game changers, and having access to another is huge. For some reason, people never seem to mention that little detail when talking about level 20 casters.
You will still get it as long as you multiclass into another class with full casting.
If you're worrying about squeezing max value out of a level 20 character, you're probably just playing Theorcraft: The Game and not actually at a table.
Nobody* plays at level 20, unless you're starting at level 15+ and doing an epic campaign. This isn't really a problem that needs to be fixed. In addition, as several people have said, arcane secrets doesn't work the way you think it does. Having a spell slot and being able to cast a spell of that level are 2 different ideas.
(*Nobody excludes you, that one guy who's here specifically to point out that you have had SEVERAL 20th level characters. It's just hyperbole)
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In planning out a new bard to play in a campaign, I found an easy way to make bards stronger. I think that everyone can agree that the capstone ability for Bards is lackluster to say in the least. In seeing that, I immediately wanted to check for potential one-level dips in other classes to change it up and try to get a little more out of it. If you take a level in another full caster (cleric, druid, sorcerer, warlock, wizard) before being a 6th level Lore Bard or a 10th level Bard of another college, you change what level of spells are available for you to take. Now, you delay it by a level, but as a lore bard, you can take 4th level spells whereas before, you were only able to take 1st-3rd level spells. While this may not seem like a huge deal, it gives the bard access to a level higher spells for the Magical Secrets feature at 10th and 14th bard levels. As a 6th level Lore Bard, 7th level Spellcaster, you can also take powerful 4th level spells from the Paladin and Ranger classes, spells that weren't meant to be had at 7th level. Some notable examples of useful 4th level spells are Aura of Life, Conjure Woodland Beings, Find Greater Steed, Greater Invisibility, Polymorph, and Sickening Radiance, to name a few. The Feature was not designed to allow for this, but is easily achieved. Other benefits of multiclassing are potentially higher AC from Cleric and Dragonic Sorcerer, and an expanded spell list to choose from. Outside of slightly delaying your other class features in order to buff one that happens 2-3 times, there are few downsides. Now, if you multiclass into a Sorcerer or Warlock, you have to have a story reason to do so most of the time. Some DMs may not allow for multiclassing in general, or specifically this sort of multiclassing to abuse mechanics. If you multiclass into Druid, you don't get a whole lot out of it outside of some spells like Goodberry. Multiclassing into Cleric can give better armor and solid support spells, although you have to deal with the spells using Wisdom instead of Charisma like with the Druid. Wizard uses intelligence instead of Charisma, but gives the broadest range of spells and a 1st level slot back on a short rest. Overall, I feel like this is an easy way to increase the overall power of bards without giving up very much. I want to see if anyone else has any thoughts on it or ideas for more spells to take. Thanks for reading.
EDIT: It has been pointed out to me by numerous people that this doesn't work, and after looking into this, they are right. I apologize for any misleading I may have caused.
That means your multiclass spell slots don't factor into which spells you can learn through Magical Secrets. They likewise don't factor into what spells you can cast from a spell scroll without having to make an ability check.
You could just push that wall of text over on your enemies...
Roleplaying since Runequest.
Actually, I don't think this is the case. All that magical secrets says is that it has to be at a level that you can cast, not that it has to be from being a bard. I could be wrong, but I don't think that I am.
Spell of a level you can cast, not spell of a level you have spell slots for. A Bard lvl 10 / Sorcerer lvl 5 can cast 4th lvl Bard spells and 3rd lvl sorcerer spells despite the presence of 8th lvl spell slots. Upcasting lower level spells does not count for that. As for multiclassing, a level of sorcerer is very useful if you ever run into a nice staff like fire or power.
It's also an English word that means "the high point; crowning achievement" so it's an apt way to describe a class's 20th level feature.
I agree with everything else you said.
Bards are really good in 5e. Why would you try to make them stronger?
We do bones, motherf***ker!
You also get another 7th level spell at level 20. That's actually a pretty major benefit - spells at levels 6+ are massive game changers, and having access to another is huge. For some reason, people never seem to mention that little detail when talking about level 20 casters.
You'd still get that extra spell slot if you multiclass into another spellcasting class, so it makes sense people focus on the capstone feature.
If you're worrying about squeezing max value out of a level 20 character, you're probably just playing Theorcraft: The Game and not actually at a table.
Nobody* plays at level 20, unless you're starting at level 15+ and doing an epic campaign. This isn't really a problem that needs to be fixed. In addition, as several people have said, arcane secrets doesn't work the way you think it does. Having a spell slot and being able to cast a spell of that level are 2 different ideas.
(*Nobody excludes you, that one guy who's here specifically to point out that you have had SEVERAL 20th level characters. It's just hyperbole)