Ultimately they're cantrips, they're not supposed to be super reliable (as they cost nothing)
I understand the thinking here, but it just doesn't feel like an adequate justification for VM's perceived weakness. There's supposed to be some degree of balance in a well-designed game, after all. No, the attack cantrips shouldn't all be nearly-identical, 60-foot-range, 1d8 elemental damage blasts, but even when allowing for various ranges, secondary effects, etc., when placed next to the others, Vicious Mockery just doesn't seem to stack up.
That said, this thread has pointed out some decent workarounds.
Ultimately they're cantrips, they're not supposed to be super reliable (as they cost nothing)
I understand the thinking here, but it just doesn't feel like an adequate justification for VM's perceived weakness. There's supposed to be some degree of balance in a well-designed game, after all. No, the attack cantrips shouldn't all be nearly-identical, 60-foot-range, 1d8 elemental damage blasts, but even when allowing for various ranges, secondary effects, etc., when placed next to the others, Vicious Mockery just doesn't seem to stack up.
That said, this thread has pointed out some decent workarounds.
If you look at the rest of my post, I'm not actually arguing that Vicious Mockery is bad; my point is that cantrips are "free" spells, they cost nothing to use except an action; you can get decent damage, or you can get a useful effect, or some lesser combination of the two, expecting more is strange.
Vicious Mockery's damage is scaled against the type of damage and its save; physic damage is generally less resisted than regular elemental damage types (fire, cold etc.), and Wisdom saves on physical attacker type enemies are generally poor. In these ways Vicious Mockery is actually superior to Frostbite, its closest rival; these are the types of enemies where you're most likely to want to interfere with their attacks, as enemy casters don't need to make attack rolls to hurt you, and while d4 might not be a great weapon die, it's better than half a d6 when an enemy is resistant, and much better than 0% of a d6 when they're outright immune. Against fiends for example Vicious Mockery is vastly superior. In the same vein Frostbite will be better against many undead (though some of those do resist cold as well) and in both cases the damage isn't necessarily what you most want to inflict.
Imposing disadvantage is one of the more powerful "rider" effects on a cantrip for combat use, in many ways the damage that Vicious Mockery (and Frostbite) actually does is irrelevant; it's a side benefit to messing around with your opponent. If your goal is to actually deal damage then you don't really want a cantrip at all unless you're low on spell slots (or need to save them), otherwise Dissonant Whispers is much, much better as it not only deals more damage, but it can also force an enemy to use its reaction to trigger a round of opportunity attacks against itself.
Remember, we're talking about a cantrip that's normally limited to Bards here; Bards are full casters, while they may want to use cantrips at early levels, later on you should have enough spell slots to play around with much more powerful options without too much risk of running dry. At that point Vicious Mockery isn't there to do damage, so much as it's just one more option for taking advantage of an enemy's weak Wisdom to make them hit you less.
It is an amazing cantrip to have in your tool kit, but not valuable as an every round ability. In the game where I play a bard (level 6 party) it has been invaluable against hard hitting foes and not even used against minor threats. To me, it is absolutely worth having as one of my few cantrips. It is an excellent "not sure what to do this turn" ability, as well. Disadvantage even if not needed is never a bad thing.
The Lore Bard in my group, who joined later than the rest and is enjoying this as her first D&D campaign has gotten great results off of Vicious Mockery. It's an easy and safe spell save attack and debuff all in one that you can use as much as you want. I cast Bane on things often so I can vouch for the two working really well together (though to be fair, Bane kinda works well with everything. Easy Stunning Strikes.)
I mean, yeah your DM can start to slip in monsters and characters with really high Wisdom all of a sudden, but meta gaming temptations don't take away from the spell being really good at what it does.
IMO, yes, it sucks. It's good at lower levels, but by T2 the damage is junk and disadvantage on only the first attack of what can often be an awful lot of multi-attacks is lackluster. The wizard in my group uses frostbite, for the same reason bards use VM and does it often. When the monster is swinging three times, it doesn't look very impressive from where I sit. The only time it seems to work is when he's running slow on the monsters...but really, that's slow doing the lion's share of the work.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
IMO, yes, it sucks. It's good at lower levels, but by T2 the damage is junk and disadvantage on only the first attack of what can often be an awful lot of multi-attacks is lackluster. The wizard in my group uses frostbite, for the same reason bards use VM and does it often. When the monster is swinging three times, it doesn't look very impressive from where I sit. The only time it seems to work is when he's running slow on the monsters...but really, that's slow doing the lion's share of the work.
Well, it’s better than a kick in the dangly bits. I mean, if you had a choice between casting VM, or getting kicked in the dangly bits, which would you pick? I know which one I would pick, but I have Abby Normal’s brain. 😉
The overwhelming majority of the time I end up casting Vicious Mockery? Its right after I end up casting Healing Word. That whole bonus-action-spell-and-cantrip thing. And that's fine. The cantrip is just a bit extra over healing someone.
Fundamentally, Bards come in two general flavors. You've got your martial bards that hit things with weapons, like Valor, Sword and Whispers. Then, you've got pure spellcasters, which includes pretty much everyone else. The former will generally be hitting stuff with swords or bows, not mocking foes. The latter? The latter will end up taking the cantrip in question, but like other full casters, they steadily stop using cantrips over time. Not just because they get more spell slots, but also because of their equipment. Wands, instruments, and more provide a wealth of possibilities for the discerning bard to cast from.
Honestly, a bard with access to an Instrument of the Bards will love casting Hypnotic Pattern religiously. You don't expect a tiefling bladesinger to be casting firebolt. You want to snag [feat]Flames of Phlegethos[/feat] and smack everything you can with a Green Flame Blade while you wander around the field shrouded by Fire Shield.
My Whispers Bard has a Dancing Sword and spends his BA using that, so he uses his Action to cast VM (or Chill Touch) all the time. Except the one time he was surrounded by Bandits and cast Word of Radiance and rolled exactly 11 damage. 🤣😂🤣😂🤣
IMO, yes, it sucks. It's good at lower levels, but by T2 the damage is junk and disadvantage on only the first attack of what can often be an awful lot of multi-attacks is lackluster. The wizard in my group uses frostbite, for the same reason bards use VM and does it often. When the monster is swinging three times, it doesn't look very impressive from where I sit. The only time it seems to work is when he's running slow on the monsters...but really, that's slow doing the lion's share of the work.
Well, it’s better than a kick in the dangly bits. I mean, if you had a choice between casting VM, or getting kicked in the dangly bits, which would you pick? I know which one I would pick, but I have Abby Normal’s brain. 😉
Sure it's better than a kick in the danglies, but there's levistus tiefling so...yeah. That's my go-to for my barding needs at this point. Thanks Tasha, now I don't have to accept the bonus to con and can just move it to dex where I really wanted it anyways, because why should I have to accept a limitation to gain in power?
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I agree, but if I need a cantrip I want one that doesn't suck rocks. VM does.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Minimum d8 damage with a rider good rider, or an excellent utility cantrip. Ray of Frost, and Minor lllusion qualify. VM's D4 sucks, and the single attack disadvantage is only OKish. There are plenty of /worse/ cantrips such as poison spray, true strike, blade ward, infestation etc, but the best thing about vicious mockery is, it's available to bards if you're going to play a bard.
EDIT: I think firebolt is overrated too, so this isn't /only/ about damage. I'd take Ray of Frost and Chill Touch's d8's over firebolt's d10 any day. The only time I /ever/ pick firebolt is thematic reasons on a fire-based caster.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Magic Init feat to get Vicious Mockery and Bane unless Multiclassing.
Hound of Ill Omen as bonus, cast Bane.
While Bane and Hound active, QS Mind Sliver and cast Vicious Mockery.
Disadvantage to first attack, -1d4 to all attacks and saves, disadvantage to resist all your spells. While doing 1d4 + 1d6 and damage from the Hound, every turn you have the Sorc Points.
Worth 6 levels of Sorc, even if just two rounds of this. Or full Sorc for 6 rounds. You'll be keeping the party safe, chipping away their health. Not the best and most effective use of HoIO or SP but hey, it'll be fun.
you can get VM from one of the tiefling variants...let me look it up.
EDIT: Variant Tiefling with Devil's Tongue trait.
Variant Tiefling
Devil’s Tongue.You know the vicious mockery cantrip. When you reach 3rd level, you can cast the charm person spell as a 2nd-level spell once with this trait. When you reach 5th level, you can cast the enthrall spell once with this trait. You must finish a long rest to cast these spells once again with this trait. Charisma is your spellcasting ability for them. This trait replaces the Infernal Legacy trait.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I’m a big fan of Ray of Frost and Chill Touch myself, but Vicious Mockery has its place too. Psychic Damage is nice, and against an opponent with a single high damage attack, like a strong spell attack, and it’s really still useful later in the game.
Only if it requires a single attack roll. I find that the times when VM is going to actually be useful are far too situational. I'd rather choose a plethora of other cantrips instead. For the bard, I am likely taking presitigitation, minor illusion, mending, and maybe mage hand first.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Hm. Well, lets put aside the utility cantrips for right now, and focus on the combat ones. No argument that most of them are awesome, but we should be discussing Vicious Mockery's peers.
Ray of Frost - d8 and slows the target. Lets use this spell as our benchmark "ideal cantrip" then. Fire Bolt trades in a good rider for more damage. Sacred Flame, the iconic cleric cantrip, is d8 and has the ability to ignore cover as its rider. Shocking Grasp is d8 melee, but has advantage to attack someone in metal armor and causes the target to lose a reaction. Chill Touch is d8 with an ability to prevent hp regen. With the exception of Sacred Flame, these are these are Wizard cantrips, which are shared with Sorcerer, Warlock and Artificer, all of whom have a kind of attack-mage theme to them.
Shillelagh is probably the most iconic Druid spell, but ironically one of the worst ones for actual druids to use level 5+; progressively worse damage than other cantrips without a rider for druids. Produce Flame is apparently one of the go-to damage spells for druid, and can function as a torch, but I'm rather unsure if its actually worthwhile to do so, since you can't both torch and attack.
You know, I just realized that there's a "support mage penalty" at play here. Thorn Whip is very similar to Lightning Lure but has a smaller die for damage, though a larger range. Sacred Flame deals d8 damage, but its rider is actually negating a weakness of DEX save that wouldn't be there if it called for a CON or STR save; effectively, we're giving up a rider for boost in damage, just like firebolt does.
Anyways, if VM was bumped up to a d6, would it not suck then? Or should it be d8, despite the support mage penalty? Alternatively, improving the rider so it affects all attacks from one monster instead of just one? That would make the rider far better than Shocking Grasp's, but enough to justify the dice size drop?
FYI - this isn't a trick question, but I'm honestly curious what exactly it would involve to make VM "not suck" in others' opinion.
I understand the thinking here, but it just doesn't feel like an adequate justification for VM's perceived weakness. There's supposed to be some degree of balance in a well-designed game, after all. No, the attack cantrips shouldn't all be nearly-identical, 60-foot-range, 1d8 elemental damage blasts, but even when allowing for various ranges, secondary effects, etc., when placed next to the others, Vicious Mockery just doesn't seem to stack up.
That said, this thread has pointed out some decent workarounds.
Whistler
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>> New FOW threat & treasure tables: fow-advanced-threat-tables.pdf fow-advanced-treasure-table.pdf
If you look at the rest of my post, I'm not actually arguing that Vicious Mockery is bad; my point is that cantrips are "free" spells, they cost nothing to use except an action; you can get decent damage, or you can get a useful effect, or some lesser combination of the two, expecting more is strange.
Vicious Mockery's damage is scaled against the type of damage and its save; physic damage is generally less resisted than regular elemental damage types (fire, cold etc.), and Wisdom saves on physical attacker type enemies are generally poor. In these ways Vicious Mockery is actually superior to Frostbite, its closest rival; these are the types of enemies where you're most likely to want to interfere with their attacks, as enemy casters don't need to make attack rolls to hurt you, and while d4 might not be a great weapon die, it's better than half a d6 when an enemy is resistant, and much better than 0% of a d6 when they're outright immune. Against fiends for example Vicious Mockery is vastly superior. In the same vein Frostbite will be better against many undead (though some of those do resist cold as well) and in both cases the damage isn't necessarily what you most want to inflict.
Imposing disadvantage is one of the more powerful "rider" effects on a cantrip for combat use, in many ways the damage that Vicious Mockery (and Frostbite) actually does is irrelevant; it's a side benefit to messing around with your opponent. If your goal is to actually deal damage then you don't really want a cantrip at all unless you're low on spell slots (or need to save them), otherwise Dissonant Whispers is much, much better as it not only deals more damage, but it can also force an enemy to use its reaction to trigger a round of opportunity attacks against itself.
Remember, we're talking about a cantrip that's normally limited to Bards here; Bards are full casters, while they may want to use cantrips at early levels, later on you should have enough spell slots to play around with much more powerful options without too much risk of running dry. At that point Vicious Mockery isn't there to do damage, so much as it's just one more option for taking advantage of an enemy's weak Wisdom to make them hit you less.
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It is an amazing cantrip to have in your tool kit, but not valuable as an every round ability. In the game where I play a bard (level 6 party) it has been invaluable against hard hitting foes and not even used against minor threats. To me, it is absolutely worth having as one of my few cantrips. It is an excellent "not sure what to do this turn" ability, as well. Disadvantage even if not needed is never a bad thing.
No.
The Lore Bard in my group, who joined later than the rest and is enjoying this as her first D&D campaign has gotten great results off of Vicious Mockery. It's an easy and safe spell save attack and debuff all in one that you can use as much as you want. I cast Bane on things often so I can vouch for the two working really well together (though to be fair, Bane kinda works well with everything. Easy Stunning Strikes.)
I mean, yeah your DM can start to slip in monsters and characters with really high Wisdom all of a sudden, but meta gaming temptations don't take away from the spell being really good at what it does.
IMO, yes, it sucks. It's good at lower levels, but by T2 the damage is junk and disadvantage on only the first attack of what can often be an awful lot of multi-attacks is lackluster. The wizard in my group uses frostbite, for the same reason bards use VM and does it often. When the monster is swinging three times, it doesn't look very impressive from where I sit. The only time it seems to work is when he's running slow on the monsters...but really, that's slow doing the lion's share of the work.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Well, it’s better than a kick in the dangly bits. I mean, if you had a choice between casting VM, or getting kicked in the dangly bits, which would you pick? I know which one I would pick, but I have Abby Normal’s brain. 😉
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The overwhelming majority of the time I end up casting Vicious Mockery? Its right after I end up casting Healing Word. That whole bonus-action-spell-and-cantrip thing. And that's fine. The cantrip is just a bit extra over healing someone.
Fundamentally, Bards come in two general flavors. You've got your martial bards that hit things with weapons, like Valor, Sword and Whispers. Then, you've got pure spellcasters, which includes pretty much everyone else. The former will generally be hitting stuff with swords or bows, not mocking foes. The latter? The latter will end up taking the cantrip in question, but like other full casters, they steadily stop using cantrips over time. Not just because they get more spell slots, but also because of their equipment. Wands, instruments, and more provide a wealth of possibilities for the discerning bard to cast from.
Honestly, a bard with access to an Instrument of the Bards will love casting Hypnotic Pattern religiously. You don't expect a tiefling bladesinger to be casting firebolt. You want to snag [feat]Flames of Phlegethos[/feat] and smack everything you can with a Green Flame Blade while you wander around the field shrouded by Fire Shield.
My Whispers Bard has a Dancing Sword and spends his BA using that, so he uses his Action to cast VM (or Chill Touch) all the time. Except the one time he was surrounded by Bandits and cast Word of Radiance and rolled exactly 11 damage. 🤣😂🤣😂🤣
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Sure it's better than a kick in the danglies, but there's levistus tiefling so...yeah. That's my go-to for my barding needs at this point. Thanks Tasha, now I don't have to accept the bonus to con and can just move it to dex where I really wanted it anyways, because why should I have to accept a limitation to gain in power?
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
If you're in T2 and depending on cantrips, you should reassess your tactics.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
I agree, but if I need a cantrip I want one that doesn't suck rocks. VM does.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
If you're in T2 and depending on cantrips, you should reassess your tactics.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Thank you for your useful insight. VM sucks.
If you think VM is good, you should reassess your grading criteria.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Define "doesn't suck" if you'd be so kind? Like, what's an example of what a good cantrip should be from the core book, and why?
Eldritch blast does not count.
Minimum d8 damage with a rider good rider, or an excellent utility cantrip. Ray of Frost, and Minor lllusion qualify. VM's D4 sucks, and the single attack disadvantage is only OKish. There are plenty of /worse/ cantrips such as poison spray, true strike, blade ward, infestation etc, but the best thing about vicious mockery is, it's available to bards if you're going to play a bard.
EDIT: I think firebolt is overrated too, so this isn't /only/ about damage. I'd take Ray of Frost and Chill Touch's d8's over firebolt's d10 any day. The only time I /ever/ pick firebolt is thematic reasons on a fire-based caster.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Shadow Sorc 6 levels
Magic Init feat to get Vicious Mockery and Bane unless Multiclassing.
Hound of Ill Omen as bonus, cast Bane.
While Bane and Hound active, QS Mind Sliver and cast Vicious Mockery.
Disadvantage to first attack, -1d4 to all attacks and saves, disadvantage to resist all your spells. While doing 1d4 + 1d6 and damage from the Hound, every turn you have the Sorc Points.
Worth 6 levels of Sorc, even if just two rounds of this. Or full Sorc for 6 rounds. You'll be keeping the party safe, chipping away their health. Not the best and most effective use of HoIO or SP but hey, it'll be fun.
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you can get VM from one of the tiefling variants...let me look it up.
EDIT: Variant Tiefling with Devil's Tongue trait.
Variant Tiefling
Devil’s Tongue. You know the vicious mockery cantrip. When you reach 3rd level, you can cast the charm person spell as a 2nd-level spell once with this trait. When you reach 5th level, you can cast the enthrall spell once with this trait. You must finish a long rest to cast these spells once again with this trait. Charisma is your spellcasting ability for them. This trait replaces the Infernal Legacy trait.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I’m a big fan of Ray of Frost and Chill Touch myself, but Vicious Mockery has its place too. Psychic Damage is nice, and against an opponent with a single high damage attack, like a strong spell attack, and it’s really still useful later in the game.
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Only if it requires a single attack roll. I find that the times when VM is going to actually be useful are far too situational. I'd rather choose a plethora of other cantrips instead. For the bard, I am likely taking presitigitation, minor illusion, mending, and maybe mage hand first.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Hm. Well, lets put aside the utility cantrips for right now, and focus on the combat ones. No argument that most of them are awesome, but we should be discussing Vicious Mockery's peers.
Ray of Frost - d8 and slows the target. Lets use this spell as our benchmark "ideal cantrip" then. Fire Bolt trades in a good rider for more damage. Sacred Flame, the iconic cleric cantrip, is d8 and has the ability to ignore cover as its rider. Shocking Grasp is d8 melee, but has advantage to attack someone in metal armor and causes the target to lose a reaction. Chill Touch is d8 with an ability to prevent hp regen. With the exception of Sacred Flame, these are these are Wizard cantrips, which are shared with Sorcerer, Warlock and Artificer, all of whom have a kind of attack-mage theme to them.
Shillelagh is probably the most iconic Druid spell, but ironically one of the worst ones for actual druids to use level 5+; progressively worse damage than other cantrips without a rider for druids. Produce Flame is apparently one of the go-to damage spells for druid, and can function as a torch, but I'm rather unsure if its actually worthwhile to do so, since you can't both torch and attack.
You know, I just realized that there's a "support mage penalty" at play here. Thorn Whip is very similar to Lightning Lure but has a smaller die for damage, though a larger range. Sacred Flame deals d8 damage, but its rider is actually negating a weakness of DEX save that wouldn't be there if it called for a CON or STR save; effectively, we're giving up a rider for boost in damage, just like firebolt does.
Anyways, if VM was bumped up to a d6, would it not suck then? Or should it be d8, despite the support mage penalty? Alternatively, improving the rider so it affects all attacks from one monster instead of just one? That would make the rider far better than Shocking Grasp's, but enough to justify the dice size drop?
FYI - this isn't a trick question, but I'm honestly curious what exactly it would involve to make VM "not suck" in others' opinion.