We might normally think of Gandalf as being a Wizard or Sorcerer because he has the title "Wizard" and/or he is inherently magical. But MECHANICALLY, he fits the bard much better.
Gandalf's traits:
Wields a longsword - proficiency with swords (rapiers)
Usually lightly armored if at all - bards wear light armor
Just as likely to jump in swinging as he is to use magic - Bards can do both, Wizards and Sorcerers can't
His main power flows from his voice and his ability to command/inspire/advise others - Bardic Inspiration
The very essence of Tolkien is everyone randomly stopping to sing a song - performance/instrument proficiency.
Gandalf is several millennia old; more than enough time to learn how to wield a sword. (That said, earlier editions allowed wizards to gain proficiency with longswords and wield them as foci.) And though he's described as a wizard, he carried no spellbook. In fact, one of Gandalf's nicknames was The Grey Pilgrim; a monicker also used by Odin. He's also, basically, an angel.
Personally, if I had to give him a class, I think druid or sorcerer (probably Divine Soul) fits him pretty well. The latter gives him access to a ton of arcane and divine magic, and it allows him to wield an arcane focus like a rod, crystal, or staff. (We've seen all three in Jackson's films, and most of Gandalf's magic either requires or comes from his staff.)
I get the concerns over his inspiring other characters, but it's also important to distinguish between what's innate and what comes from magic items. At the very least he'd have Glamdring and Narya; the latter of which is probably of legendary or artifact rarity. He also wielded multiple staves over the course of his career. One of those he received in Lothlorien, where he was clothed in white after his resurrection, so he might also have a cloak of elvenkind. Oh, and one of the Palantir for a time.
Gandalf is a bard because he inspired young hobbits to go on adventures with tales of legendary hobbits.
Plus Tolkien used mythological characters that would be considered bards as inspiration for the character. Many characters in his works are inspired by those characters.
We might normally think of Gandalf as being a Wizard or Sorcerer because he has the title "Wizard" and/or he is inherently magical. But MECHANICALLY, he fits the bard much better.
Gandalf's traits:
Wields a longsword - proficiency with swords (rapiers)
Usually lightly armored if at all - bards wear light armor
Just as likely to jump in swinging as he is to use magic - Bards can do both, Wizards and Sorcerers can't
His main power flows from his voice and his ability to command/inspire/advise others - Bardic Inspiration
The very essence of Tolkien is everyone randomly stopping to sing a song - performance/instrument proficiency.
The prosecution rests.
Maybe he's a bladesinger wizard, they can use a longsword.
Bladesingers can use light armor
Bladesingers are also just as likely to jump in swinging as they are to use magic. I would also argue that when Gandalf breaks the bridge, he's using booming blade.
Is this stated anywhere? Even if it is, power sources are different in 5e from Tolkien's works. He could just as easily be a wizard as Harry Potter could be, even though harry's magic is innate. This could also be explained by him just having a decent/high Charisma score.
Maybe he's a bladesinger that actually sings? Or, he just has proficiency in Performance.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
We might normally think of Gandalf as being a Wizard or Sorcerer because he has the title "Wizard" and/or he is inherently magical. But MECHANICALLY, he fits the bard much better.
Gandalf's traits:
Wields a longsword - proficiency with swords (rapiers)
Usually lightly armored if at all - bards wear light armor
Just as likely to jump in swinging as he is to use magic - Bards can do both, Wizards and Sorcerers can't
His main power flows from his voice and his ability to command/inspire/advise others - Bardic Inspiration
The very essence of Tolkien is everyone randomly stopping to sing a song - performance/instrument proficiency.
The prosecution rests.
Maybe he's a bladesinger wizard, they can use a longsword.
Bladesingers can use light armor
Bladesingers are also just as likely to jump in swinging as they are to use magic. I would also argue that when Gandalf breaks the bridge, he's using booming blade.
Is this stated anywhere? Even if it is, power sources are different in 5e from Tolkien's works. He could just as easily be a wizard as Harry Potter could be, even though harry's magic is innate. This could also be explained by him just having a decent/high Charisma score.
Maybe he's a bladesinger that actually sings? Or, he just has proficiency in Performance.
1. Sure, but swordplay is far more common among bards than wizards.
2. Sure, but see 1 above.
3. He broke the bridge with the powers of light and flame. Most of his magic is based around that limited theme, and limited themes are more indicative of spells known classes. However, magical secrets covers any spell you might try to portray as non-bardic anyway. He also cast magic unavailable to wizards.
4. The Middle-Earth creation stories follow the music of creation mythology similar to 5e bards and Gandalf's full origin predates that. Gandalf was sent to Middle-Earth to counsel and aid against Sauron, and was known for inspiring Hobbits to adventure. He was also known for both knowledge of history and understanding people so well he could practically read their minds. That seems like a skill based class.
5. Or maybe he's not a bladesinger at all because a bard better covers everything he did better than a bladesinger only covering some similarities to a bard.
Tolkien took inspiration from the Finnish bard Väinämöinen and the Odinnic wanderer. The irony is that Tolkien labelled the product of that inspiration as a wizard when the terms wizard, druid, and bard were interchangeable once upon a time so when DnD took inspiration from Lord of the Rings for the magic user class they were indirectly taking inspiration from bards for magic users.
Whether a person views Gandalf as a bard or not depends more on perception than anything else. I would say there are several classes that can use Gandalf for inspiration, bard included. I think he's easier to build with a bard.
We might normally think of Gandalf as being a Wizard or Sorcerer because he has the title "Wizard" and/or he is inherently magical. But MECHANICALLY, he fits the bard much better.
Gandalf's traits:
Wields a longsword - proficiency with swords (rapiers)
Usually lightly armored if at all - bards wear light armor
Just as likely to jump in swinging as he is to use magic - Bards can do both, Wizards and Sorcerers can't
His main power flows from his voice and his ability to command/inspire/advise others - Bardic Inspiration
The very essence of Tolkien is everyone randomly stopping to sing a song - performance/instrument proficiency.
The prosecution rests.
Considering how little spellcasting Gandalf does and how much fighting he does, I think he's a fighter multiclass.
Also, again in the books, because it's the only real reference that matters:
As Frodo lay, tired but unable to close his eyes, it seemed to him that far away there came a light in the eastern sky: it flashed and faded many times. It was not the dawn, for that was still some hours off.
‘What is the light?' he said to Strider, who had risen, and was standing, gazing ahead into the night.
'I do not know,' Strider answered. 'It is too distant to make out. It is like lightning that leaps up from the hill-tops.'
Frodo lay down again, but for a long while he could still see the white flashes, and against them the tall dark figure of Strider, standing silent and watchful. At last he passed into uneasy sleep.
I galloped to Weathertop like a gale, and I reached it before sundown on my second day from Bree-and they were there before me. They drew away from me, for they felt the coming of my anger and they dared not face it while the Sun was in the sky. But they closed round at night, and I was besieged on the hill-top, in the old ring of Amon Sûl. I was hard put to it indeed: such light and flame cannot have been seen on Weathertop since the war-beacons of old.
he raised his hand, and from it a shaft of white light stabbed upwards
Fire, lightning, Light, Gandalf is a wizard or a sorcerer.
I would be more inclined to go with a divine soul sorcerer than a wizard. I would restate fire, light, and lightning are available to bards via secrets regardless.
I could build him as a cleric too.
Edit....
When giving Narya to Gandalf, Cirdan says (Unfinished Tales Part 4 Section 2):
'I deem that in days ere long to come it should be in nobler hands than mine, that may wield it for the kindling of all hearts to courage.'
Gandalf's role is counsel and to inspire courage. That's bard.
FotR Book 2 Ch. 10:
And suddenly he felt the Eye. There was an eye in the Dark Tower that did not sleep. He knew that it had become aware of his gaze. A fierce eager will was there. It leaped towards him; almost like a finger he felt it, searching for him. Very soon it would nail him down, know just exactly where he was. Amon Lhaw it touched. It glanced upon Tol Brandir he threw himself from the seat, crouching, covering his head with his grey hood.
He heard himself crying out: Never, never! Or was it: Verily I come, I come to you? He could not tell. Then as a flash from some other point of power there came to his mind another thought: Take it off! Take it off! Fool, take it off! Take off the Ring!
The two powers strove in him. For a moment, perfectly balanced between their piercing points, he writhed, tormented. Suddenly he was aware of himself again. Frodo, neither the Voice nor the Eye: free to choose, and with one remaining instant in which to do so. He took the Ring off his finger. He was kneeling in clear sunlight before the high seat. A black shadow seemed to pass like an arm above him; it missed Amon Hen and groped out west, and faded. Then all the sky was clean and blue and birds sang in every tree.
Gandalf empowered Frodo to make his saving throw. Bardic inspiration.
TT Book 1 Ch. 5:
At last the old man broke the silence. 'Well met indeed, my friends,' he said in a soft voice. 'I wish to speak to you. Will you come down or shall I come up?' Without waiting for an answer he began to climb.
'Now!' said Gimli. 'Stop him, Legolas!'
'Did I not say that I wished to speak to you?' said the old man. 'Put away that bow, Master Elf!'
The bow and arrow fell from Legolas' hands, and his arms hung loose at his sides.
'And you, Master Dwarf, pray take your hand from your axe-haft, till I am up! You will not need such arguments.'
Gimli started and then stood still as stone, staring...
Gandalf commanded them with the power of his voice. Bard again.
I can support bard over wizard easily. Gandalf did use fire, light, and lightning but he also did other things that fall more in line with bards. What he didn't do was carry a spell book around and he didn't prepare spells vancian or neo-vancian styles.
Commanding with Words is not only something that bards do. Wizard's have something called Power Word Spells. They've been disappearing slowly throughout iterations of the game but these are some of the most powerful spells in existance. Even the weakest one i can think of was never below like 3rd level spells and the more powerful ones that existed could kill people outright amongst other nasty things with the utterance of but single words or a very simple phrase. (as a little aside. 3 of these spells are actually enchantment/charm spells.)
In the Lore of D&D Magic used to be a whole lot more powerful and such power word spells were much more common place. But we're also talking about a time when things like 10th level spells and possibly higher were not only known but cast on the semi-regular by people that did things like make entire cities fly in the sky.
In Tolkien lore Gandalf comes from a group that is on the same level as these ancient legends. Where modern magic is just a pale imitation. This is why he almost never casts spells and when he does the magic is limited in scope. His group is actively supposed to work against those that would use such magics to bring about untold destruction.
It technically doesn't usually take some special bard power to tell somebody they are being an idiot and shake them up enough to shake off a power that is controlling their mind. There are conditions and waves to give people new saves to various effects that anybody can do.
And the effects that stayed Gimli and Legolas hands do not have to be something that is particularly bard like. Many enchantment/charm spells only require Verbal and Somatic components, and when they do need material components it's usually something basic that can be covered by a focus like a staff. This includes spells like charm person, hold person, suggestion, mass suggestion. And that is all assuming that he doesn't just have a class feature like the level 2 Enchanter gets in Hypnotic Gaze that incapacitates a creature, drops their movement to zero and makes them look physically dazed until the end of your next turn, or an ability like split enchantment that the same school gets at 10th level to hit them both with a single target spell like suggestion.
And who's to say that some part of his gear that we just aren't aware of or have always overlooked doesn't give him some ability like Still spell to his magic when he wants it or applying only to specific types of magic that he casts or that because he is from a group with such legendary level of wizardry that such traits aren't simply automatically a part of the spell that he casts? Though if they aren't then that leans much more into him being perhaps a sorcerer or perhaps druid again.
When it comes to weapons Gandalf is a real oddity. He's the only character anywhere that we can point to in literature or otherwise that dual wields a Staff and a longsword at the same time. Any time he's mentioned or pictured to draw the sword and use it as well. He pretty much always has the staff in hand as well.
Where's his musical instrument? Every bard has a instrument as a focus or else they can't cast spells
No bard needs an instrument to cast spells. A bard can use an instrument an a focus but casts spells without one the same way every other spell casting class casts spells without a focus -- they use spell components or a pouch.
The Silmarillion demonstrates the importance of song and music, and was originally declined publishing for being too Celtic.
Commanding with Words is not only something that bards do. Wizard's have something called Power Word Spells. They've been disappearing slowly throughout iterations of the game but these are some of the most powerful spells in existance. Even the weakest one i can think of was never below like 3rd level spells and the more powerful ones that existed could kill people outright amongst other nasty things with the utterance of but single words or a very simple phrase. (as a little aside. 3 of these spells are actually enchantment/charm spells.)
In the Lore of D&D Magic used to be a whole lot more powerful and such power word spells were much more common place. But we're also talking about a time when things like 10th level spells and possibly higher were not only known but cast on the semi-regular by people that did things like make entire cities fly in the sky.
In Tolkien lore Gandalf comes from a group that is on the same level as these ancient legends. Where modern magic is just a pale imitation. This is why he almost never casts spells and when he does the magic is limited in scope. His group is actively supposed to work against those that would use such magics to bring about untold destruction.
It technically doesn't usually take some special bard power to tell somebody they are being an idiot and shake them up enough to shake off a power that is controlling their mind. There are conditions and waves to give people new saves to various effects that anybody can do.
And the effects that stayed Gimli and Legolas hands do not have to be something that is particularly bard like. Many enchantment/charm spells only require Verbal and Somatic components, and when they do need material components it's usually something basic that can be covered by a focus like a staff. This includes spells like charm person, hold person, suggestion, mass suggestion. And that is all assuming that he doesn't just have a class feature like the level 2 Enchanter gets in Hypnotic Gaze that incapacitates a creature, drops their movement to zero and makes them look physically dazed until the end of your next turn, or an ability like split enchantment that the same school gets at 10th level to hit them both with a single target spell like suggestion.
And who's to say that some part of his gear that we just aren't aware of or have always overlooked doesn't give him some ability like Still spell to his magic when he wants it or applying only to specific types of magic that he casts or that because he is from a group with such legendary level of wizardry that such traits aren't simply automatically a part of the spell that he casts? Though if they aren't then that leans much more into him being perhaps a sorcerer or perhaps druid again.
When it comes to weapons Gandalf is a real oddity. He's the only character anywhere that we can point to in literature or otherwise that dual wields a Staff and a longsword at the same time. Any time he's mentioned or pictured to draw the sword and use it as well. He pretty much always has the staff in hand as well.
Stopping Legolas and Gimli would be represented by the command spell. That's not a wizard spell.
In 5e terms a class doesn't enable another character to shake off those effects without a mechanic to enable it, such as inspiration.
Welding a staff and a long sword isn't hard for any class to do in 5e. Why a PC might do it other than flavor might be questionable.
Tolkien took inspiration from mythology using bard characters as part of his inspiration. That's a fact. It's just not easy to apply multiple iterations of RPG mechanics created long after the characters were created to those characters. There will always be some variance unless the characters were created from DnD mechanics.
Merlin has the same issue. That legend was also based on a bard but anyone building him as a wizard, sorcerer, or druid could make arguments for those classes too.
Stopping Gimli and Legolas would not only be representative of the command spell. Particularly since he does not use a single word against either of them. He uses a phrase and makes it sound reasonable enough that the power he uses on them forces them to do so. It also describes them going rigid to the effect which is much more fitting of somehting like suggestion or the Enchanter power I mentioned than it is of Command.
In 5e terms you are wrong, there are plenty of spells such as sleep and a number of illusions for example that simple shaking or mention of something not being what it seems can actually make one get a new chance to overcome it. Inspiration in no way allows an additional roll under normal circumstances. All it does is modify the initial roll that is allowed if it is allowed at all.
Wielding a Staff and a long sword is questionable... unless you have a reason to keep holding that staff such as it being your focus for casting your spells. Then you would need to keep it in hand for any magic that you wanted to do. It's an interesting little tidbit that he draws his sword to fight the Balrog but it's actually the staff that he smashes on the ground to break the stone bridge to keep it escaping from Mordor. Now why would he need to bother slamming his staff on the ground unless it was indeed integral to his magic? Which would in turn make him more of a Druid or a Wizard.
As for Merlin. He's actually based in some druidic beliefs of his region and is about a man that is actually torn between two worlds and can belong to neither of them. The typical storytelling measure of the time actually being partly wrapped up in rhyme, song, and Edda's to help keep them interesting and memorable in a mostly oral tradition.
When it comes to weapons Gandalf is a real oddity. He's the only character anywhere that we can point to in literature or otherwise that dual wields a Staff and a longsword at the same time. Any time he's mentioned or pictured to draw the sword and use it as well. He pretty much always has the staff in hand as well.
That does not mean he dual wields it like the dervish-style Gandalf of Jackson's movies. And he uses the sword as a sword extremely rarely. I don't think I've found an example in the LotR except against the Balrog, and since he is falling after grasping the ledge, he probably has lost his staff anyway.
He wields it as a Sword at Helm's Deep when he's rushing through the frightened orcs like a shining beacon of light. He wields it as a Sword while directing the defense of Gondor.
And in the book he's actually wielding both against the balrog in his description of the battle both casting spells and fighting traditionally against the beast. Both on the way down and on the way back up to end up at the peak. Most of which is not described all that heavily.
Stopping Gimli and Legolas would not only be representative of the command spell. Particularly since he does not use a single word against either of them. He uses a phrase and makes it sound reasonable enough that the power he uses on them forces them to do so. It also describes them going rigid to the effect which is much more fitting of somehting like suggestion or the Enchanter power I mentioned than it is of Command.
In 5e terms you are wrong, there are plenty of spells such as sleep and a number of illusions for example that simple shaking or mention of something not being what it seems can actually make one get a new chance to overcome it. Inspiration in no way allows an additional roll under normal circumstances. All it does is modify the initial roll that is allowed if it is allowed at all.
Wielding a Staff and a long sword is questionable... unless you have a reason to keep holding that staff such as it being your focus for casting your spells. Then you would need to keep it in hand for any magic that you wanted to do. It's an interesting little tidbit that he draws his sword to fight the Balrog but it's actually the staff that he smashes on the ground to break the stone bridge to keep it escaping from Mordor. Now why would he need to bother slamming his staff on the ground unless it was indeed integral to his magic? Which would in turn make him more of a Druid or a Wizard.
As for Merlin. He's actually based in some druidic beliefs of his region and is about a man that is actually torn between two worlds and can belong to neither of them. The typical storytelling measure of the time actually being partly wrapped up in rhyme, song, and Edda's to help keep them interesting and memorable in a mostly oral tradition.
Sleep was obviously not used in that example. ;-)
I never said it was an additional roll. I said the inspiration helped with the roll. Glad we cleared that up. ;-)
Command seemed like the most similar spell to me because Galdalf gave commands that were followed. One word vs a sentence would just be literary license if it weren't for the fact LotR was not based on D&D. If you want to go with the sentence then suggestion would be mores suitable. The issue with your argument here is those are all bard spells too.
The power of words is part of the 5e bard overview as bards use echoes of the words of creation. Bards have power word stun, power word kill, power word heal, command, vicious mockery, and bardic inspiration supporting the concept better than wizards. Wizards have power word pain as the only option bards don't have native to the list along those lines. We have not seen an example of power word pain, but we have seen that sharp tongue.
Making him more of a druid is why he's actually more of a bard. Bards have their roots in druids and vice versa. If we saw Gandalf change into the shape of an animal I would be all over the druid claim. ;-)
The staff smiting the bridge isn't indicative of either class. The staff of thunder and lightning replicates this attack. What we know is the staff is important, not that it's actually an implement or focus.
As for Merlin, he's based on the bard Myrddin, who was in turn based on the bard Taliesin. When Merlin was brought into the Arthurian legends it was as his chief bard in a retelling where he was replacing Taliesin from the previous version where Taliesin was Arthur's chief bard. What we see today has more to do with pop-culture than origins of those myths.
Stopping Legolas and Gimli would be represented by the command spell. That's not a wizard spell.
Power Word Stun, much more appropriate.
In 5e terms a class doesn't enable another character to shake off those effects without a mechanic to enable it, such as inspiration.
I'm a bit lost there, which part of inspiration allows you to shake off an existing effect ?Tolkien took inspiration from mythology using bard characters as part of his inspiration. That's a fact. It's just not easy to apply multiple iterations of RPG mechanics created long after the characters were created to those characters. There will always be some variance unless the characters were created from DnD mechanics.
Merlin has the same issue. That legend was also based on a bard but anyone building him as a wizard, sorcerer, or druid could make arguments for those classes too.
How you can say things like "That legend was also based on a bard" when neither Gandalf nor Merlin are obviously based on that is totally beyond me. Wikipedia: Merlin (Welsh: Myrddin, Cornish: Marzhin, Breton: Merzhin) is a mythological figure prominently featured in the legend of King Arthur and best known as an enchanter or wizard. The origin of the name might be the name of a bard, but that is all, certainly not the character himself.
Power word stun is also a bard spell. Plus, see above regarding bard spell lists.
The effect from inspiration as I was interpreting it was in the process of making he save. Apologies if that wasn't clear.
I touched on the origins of Merlin above and can elaborate in much greater detail. What we need to be careful of here is making sure we understand that the writings from which both characters are based are older than modern pop-culture tropes.
Bards get those spells because they are associated with that magic in those legends. Gandalf and Merlin are obviously based on those legends. Merlin using those enchantments and illusions, and as the seer/prophet (which is Celtic / Welsh bard legend), embodies that those legends. Where things get confusing is the juxtaposition of troubadors and minstrels with bards by French romanticists in a later era.
Gandalf is a bard because in the creation of Middle Earth the gods sang it into being. Then they sang into being helpers. The reality of Middle Earth is a song and those helpers (Gandalf included) is tuning that song to manipulate that reality. It's hard not to see the parallel between LotR creation mythos and the bardic echoes of creation concept when looking at Gandalf.
That doesn't mean someone is wrong if he/she/they have a different opinion. Gandalf could be a sorcerer or druid based on reasons within the stories. He can also be a bard and that's not wrong either. It's opinion based on a non-D&D work and historical legend.
Most of those things your attributing to the Bard the bard only has because they've gone to being almost entirely a spell caster in 5e which they were not in previous editions and did not in fact have access to most of. Bards are not the only thing that have gone a whole lot more towards generic spell caster in 5e. Sorcerer's have lost much of their flavor in the shadow of wizards well and Bards mostly copy wizards at this point with just a bit of the cleric stuff thrown in for flavor and slightly different utility. It's this generic over leaning into spell casters that actually disappoints me a fair bit when it comes to the Artificer as well because a lot of unique flavor has been lost or turned purely into nonmechanical fluff.
As for Merlin's representation as a bard. I'd be careful with that. When you go searching you find that Despite trying to claim a bardic past to him one of the sources that pertains to this claims that it actually predates Geoffrey of Monmouth and his influence on Arthurian Legend but The best that it can be dated back is to after his death for certain and he was alive for a decent chunk of the questionable period that it is suspected to be written in. And the other major source that is listed to lay claim to a Bardic Heritage to Merlin was actually influenced and even contains some writings by Geoffrey of Monmouth. So neither are necessarily without his influence. There is also the fact that as i said. Song and Prose and Edda's were common to many oral styles, even that of the welsh which can easily give bardic flavor to some of it's heroes and legends even if they themselves did not possess it to make them more entertaining and more memorable. And that's all ignoring the fact that the link between the real life bard and the wizard in the legends is "well it could probably be him" but we don't really know and there is nothing truly substantial to make the link other than the guy was alive right around the rough time that the Arthurian Legend tends to be considered to stem from and in the right general area. Though there are signs that Arthurian Legend may actually be re-imaginings of older welsh legends into new characters and grander scope and it has been altered a number of times over the centuries to add in characters and various plot elements or to change things around.
I think technically, Gandalf is a character in a book, later some movies. That said, any debate over what he IS in D&D is philisophical, since he isn't in the D&D world. With that tidbit in mind, everyone may be wrong (or right) depending on the abilities and such of these "classes" in Middle Earth.
The debate is truly interesting, however, as it shows how by picking certain specs, and a specific list of spells, one can create their favored fantasy character. The sheer beauty of this is that this thread shows one can pick any of several classes and customize it with skills, feats and possibly even racial traits, to make it "fit" that fictional character. I think of a lot of Forgotten realms books (I only have about 200) where Rangers perform impossible swordsman feats, or Wizards cast insanely powerful spells, many of which are absent in the playing of D&D. To create a Ranger that fits typical Realms fiction, the Fighter ends up being a better base than Ranger, for the swordsmanship.
I guess the point of my post is to point out that there are several class combos one could use, to attain a very similar result. 3-4 vastly different starting points, to end up with a character that is essentially what you want. It's all in the path you choose.
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Talk to your Players.Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
Please explain again when Gandalf (or Merlin, actually) does anything like this. I expect precise examples, and excerpts of books, not just your fancy. God knows I have copy/pasted tons of real excerpt from the books that plainly show that Gandalf is clearly not using music, song, or even speech for his magic.
Doesn't that mean he HAS to be a Sorcerer if he HAS to abide D&D rules (although why a fictional character is being strapped with an entirely different universe's rules I can't say) I don't know of any other class with the ability to cast spells without any verbal component. (Highly possible I missed something)
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Talk to your Players.Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
Please explain again when Gandalf (or Merlin, actually) does anything like this. I expect precise examples, and excerpts of books, not just your fancy. God knows I have copy/pasted tons of real excerpt from the books that plainly show that Gandalf is clearly not using music, song, or even speech for his magic.
Doesn't that mean he HAS to be a Sorcerer if he HAS to abide D&D rules (although why a fictional character is being strapped with an entirely different universe's rules I can't say) I don't know of any other class with the ability to cast spells without any verbal component. (Highly possible I missed something)
The reason he doesn't have to be a sorcerer is because we never actually see how Gandalf prepares for the day. Any time a character gets up for the day and he's there he's already up and been doing his thing or getting ready to head out on some alternate task that is taking him away from the group to be dealt with. Even more interesting is the fact that we do actually get a depiction of Gandalf in a Trance in the way that elves do in D&D which is not a trait that is typical to humans but generally means they require much less rest than others in the party. We actually see this in Rohan when a certain young fool of a Took looks into the Crystal ball and connects with the eye that is the representation of the Mind of Sauron.
Bladesinging certainly has elements of Gandalf too. It's interesting to me how we think of Gandalf as one of the quintessential "wizards" but he doesn't really fit into the class perfectly. Contrast with Aragorn, for whom the ranger is more or less 1-1 based on him.
The reason he doesn't have to be a sorcerer is because we never actually see how Gandalf prepares for the day. Any time a character gets up for the day and he's there he's already up and been doing his thing or getting ready to head out on some alternate task that is taking him away from the group to be dealt with.
This is a very bizarre reason. You do realise that none of the classes including the Wizard need to prepare spells for the day unless they are changing the list that they already have, right ?
In any case, I agree that Gandalf does not have a spellbook, a visible one at least, but again he would not need it until he wanted to change his list of prepared spells.
And this says nothing against him being a sorcerer, which is not different from a bard in terms of the spell he can cast. I must say that I am quite confused...
Even more interesting is the fact that we do actually get a depiction of Gandalf in a Trance in the way that elves do in D&D which is not a trait that is typical to humans but generally means they require much less rest than others in the party. We actually see this in Rohan when a certain young fool of a Took looks into the Crystal ball and connects with the eye that is the representation of the Mind of Sauron.
OK for the trance of Gandalf, why not, but I see absolutely no connection to a class requirement there. We all know that he is not human anyway.
Considering I was saying that he doesn't have to be sorcerer because we don't see a Class Requirement. Your basically just restating what I said.
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We might normally think of Gandalf as being a Wizard or Sorcerer because he has the title "Wizard" and/or he is inherently magical. But MECHANICALLY, he fits the bard much better.
Gandalf's traits:
The prosecution rests.
Gandalf is several millennia old; more than enough time to learn how to wield a sword. (That said, earlier editions allowed wizards to gain proficiency with longswords and wield them as foci.) And though he's described as a wizard, he carried no spellbook. In fact, one of Gandalf's nicknames was The Grey Pilgrim; a monicker also used by Odin. He's also, basically, an angel.
Personally, if I had to give him a class, I think druid or sorcerer (probably Divine Soul) fits him pretty well. The latter gives him access to a ton of arcane and divine magic, and it allows him to wield an arcane focus like a rod, crystal, or staff. (We've seen all three in Jackson's films, and most of Gandalf's magic either requires or comes from his staff.)
I get the concerns over his inspiring other characters, but it's also important to distinguish between what's innate and what comes from magic items. At the very least he'd have Glamdring and Narya; the latter of which is probably of legendary or artifact rarity. He also wielded multiple staves over the course of his career. One of those he received in Lothlorien, where he was clothed in white after his resurrection, so he might also have a cloak of elvenkind. Oh, and one of the Palantir for a time.
Gandalf is a bard because he inspired young hobbits to go on adventures with tales of legendary hobbits.
Plus Tolkien used mythological characters that would be considered bards as inspiration for the character. Many characters in his works are inspired by those characters.
Tulok agrees with you. He made Gandalf a Bard 14/Paladin 6 multiclass.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
1. Sure, but swordplay is far more common among bards than wizards.
2. Sure, but see 1 above.
3. He broke the bridge with the powers of light and flame. Most of his magic is based around that limited theme, and limited themes are more indicative of spells known classes. However, magical secrets covers any spell you might try to portray as non-bardic anyway. He also cast magic unavailable to wizards.
4. The Middle-Earth creation stories follow the music of creation mythology similar to 5e bards and Gandalf's full origin predates that. Gandalf was sent to Middle-Earth to counsel and aid against Sauron, and was known for inspiring Hobbits to adventure. He was also known for both knowledge of history and understanding people so well he could practically read their minds. That seems like a skill based class.
5. Or maybe he's not a bladesinger at all because a bard better covers everything he did better than a bladesinger only covering some similarities to a bard.
Tolkien took inspiration from the Finnish bard Väinämöinen and the Odinnic wanderer. The irony is that Tolkien labelled the product of that inspiration as a wizard when the terms wizard, druid, and bard were interchangeable once upon a time so when DnD took inspiration from Lord of the Rings for the magic user class they were indirectly taking inspiration from bards for magic users.
Whether a person views Gandalf as a bard or not depends more on perception than anything else. I would say there are several classes that can use Gandalf for inspiration, bard included. I think he's easier to build with a bard.
Considering how little spellcasting Gandalf does and how much fighting he does, I think he's a fighter multiclass.
I have a weird sense of humor.
I also make maps.(That's a link)
I would be more inclined to go with a divine soul sorcerer than a wizard. I would restate fire, light, and lightning are available to bards via secrets regardless.
I could build him as a cleric too.
Edit....
When giving Narya to Gandalf, Cirdan says (Unfinished Tales Part 4 Section 2):
Gandalf's role is counsel and to inspire courage. That's bard.
FotR Book 2 Ch. 10:
Gandalf empowered Frodo to make his saving throw. Bardic inspiration.
TT Book 1 Ch. 5:
Gandalf commanded them with the power of his voice. Bard again.
I can support bard over wizard easily. Gandalf did use fire, light, and lightning but he also did other things that fall more in line with bards. What he didn't do was carry a spell book around and he didn't prepare spells vancian or neo-vancian styles.
Where's his musical instrument? Every bard has a instrument as a focus or else they can't cast spells
Commanding with Words is not only something that bards do. Wizard's have something called Power Word Spells. They've been disappearing slowly throughout iterations of the game but these are some of the most powerful spells in existance. Even the weakest one i can think of was never below like 3rd level spells and the more powerful ones that existed could kill people outright amongst other nasty things with the utterance of but single words or a very simple phrase. (as a little aside. 3 of these spells are actually enchantment/charm spells.)
In the Lore of D&D Magic used to be a whole lot more powerful and such power word spells were much more common place. But we're also talking about a time when things like 10th level spells and possibly higher were not only known but cast on the semi-regular by people that did things like make entire cities fly in the sky.
In Tolkien lore Gandalf comes from a group that is on the same level as these ancient legends. Where modern magic is just a pale imitation. This is why he almost never casts spells and when he does the magic is limited in scope. His group is actively supposed to work against those that would use such magics to bring about untold destruction.
It technically doesn't usually take some special bard power to tell somebody they are being an idiot and shake them up enough to shake off a power that is controlling their mind. There are conditions and waves to give people new saves to various effects that anybody can do.
And the effects that stayed Gimli and Legolas hands do not have to be something that is particularly bard like. Many enchantment/charm spells only require Verbal and Somatic components, and when they do need material components it's usually something basic that can be covered by a focus like a staff. This includes spells like charm person, hold person, suggestion, mass suggestion. And that is all assuming that he doesn't just have a class feature like the level 2 Enchanter gets in Hypnotic Gaze that incapacitates a creature, drops their movement to zero and makes them look physically dazed until the end of your next turn, or an ability like split enchantment that the same school gets at 10th level to hit them both with a single target spell like suggestion.
And who's to say that some part of his gear that we just aren't aware of or have always overlooked doesn't give him some ability like Still spell to his magic when he wants it or applying only to specific types of magic that he casts or that because he is from a group with such legendary level of wizardry that such traits aren't simply automatically a part of the spell that he casts? Though if they aren't then that leans much more into him being perhaps a sorcerer or perhaps druid again.
When it comes to weapons Gandalf is a real oddity. He's the only character anywhere that we can point to in literature or otherwise that dual wields a Staff and a longsword at the same time. Any time he's mentioned or pictured to draw the sword and use it as well. He pretty much always has the staff in hand as well.
No bard needs an instrument to cast spells. A bard can use an instrument an a focus but casts spells without one the same way every other spell casting class casts spells without a focus -- they use spell components or a pouch.
The Silmarillion demonstrates the importance of song and music, and was originally declined publishing for being too Celtic.
Stopping Legolas and Gimli would be represented by the command spell. That's not a wizard spell.
In 5e terms a class doesn't enable another character to shake off those effects without a mechanic to enable it, such as inspiration.
Welding a staff and a long sword isn't hard for any class to do in 5e. Why a PC might do it other than flavor might be questionable.
Tolkien took inspiration from mythology using bard characters as part of his inspiration. That's a fact. It's just not easy to apply multiple iterations of RPG mechanics created long after the characters were created to those characters. There will always be some variance unless the characters were created from DnD mechanics.
Merlin has the same issue. That legend was also based on a bard but anyone building him as a wizard, sorcerer, or druid could make arguments for those classes too.
Stopping Gimli and Legolas would not only be representative of the command spell. Particularly since he does not use a single word against either of them. He uses a phrase and makes it sound reasonable enough that the power he uses on them forces them to do so. It also describes them going rigid to the effect which is much more fitting of somehting like suggestion or the Enchanter power I mentioned than it is of Command.
In 5e terms you are wrong, there are plenty of spells such as sleep and a number of illusions for example that simple shaking or mention of something not being what it seems can actually make one get a new chance to overcome it. Inspiration in no way allows an additional roll under normal circumstances. All it does is modify the initial roll that is allowed if it is allowed at all.
Wielding a Staff and a long sword is questionable... unless you have a reason to keep holding that staff such as it being your focus for casting your spells. Then you would need to keep it in hand for any magic that you wanted to do. It's an interesting little tidbit that he draws his sword to fight the Balrog but it's actually the staff that he smashes on the ground to break the stone bridge to keep it escaping from Mordor. Now why would he need to bother slamming his staff on the ground unless it was indeed integral to his magic? Which would in turn make him more of a Druid or a Wizard.
As for Merlin. He's actually based in some druidic beliefs of his region and is about a man that is actually torn between two worlds and can belong to neither of them. The typical storytelling measure of the time actually being partly wrapped up in rhyme, song, and Edda's to help keep them interesting and memorable in a mostly oral tradition.
He wields it as a Sword at Helm's Deep when he's rushing through the frightened orcs like a shining beacon of light. He wields it as a Sword while directing the defense of Gondor.
And in the book he's actually wielding both against the balrog in his description of the battle both casting spells and fighting traditionally against the beast. Both on the way down and on the way back up to end up at the peak. Most of which is not described all that heavily.
Sleep was obviously not used in that example. ;-)
I never said it was an additional roll. I said the inspiration helped with the roll. Glad we cleared that up. ;-)
Command seemed like the most similar spell to me because Galdalf gave commands that were followed. One word vs a sentence would just be literary license if it weren't for the fact LotR was not based on D&D. If you want to go with the sentence then suggestion would be mores suitable. The issue with your argument here is those are all bard spells too.
The power of words is part of the 5e bard overview as bards use echoes of the words of creation. Bards have power word stun, power word kill, power word heal, command, vicious mockery, and bardic inspiration supporting the concept better than wizards. Wizards have power word pain as the only option bards don't have native to the list along those lines. We have not seen an example of power word pain, but we have seen that sharp tongue.
Making him more of a druid is why he's actually more of a bard. Bards have their roots in druids and vice versa. If we saw Gandalf change into the shape of an animal I would be all over the druid claim. ;-)
The staff smiting the bridge isn't indicative of either class. The staff of thunder and lightning replicates this attack. What we know is the staff is important, not that it's actually an implement or focus.
As for Merlin, he's based on the bard Myrddin, who was in turn based on the bard Taliesin. When Merlin was brought into the Arthurian legends it was as his chief bard in a retelling where he was replacing Taliesin from the previous version where Taliesin was Arthur's chief bard. What we see today has more to do with pop-culture than origins of those myths.
Power word stun is also a bard spell. Plus, see above regarding bard spell lists.
The effect from inspiration as I was interpreting it was in the process of making he save. Apologies if that wasn't clear.
I touched on the origins of Merlin above and can elaborate in much greater detail. What we need to be careful of here is making sure we understand that the writings from which both characters are based are older than modern pop-culture tropes.
Bards get those spells because they are associated with that magic in those legends. Gandalf and Merlin are obviously based on those legends. Merlin using those enchantments and illusions, and as the seer/prophet (which is Celtic / Welsh bard legend), embodies that those legends. Where things get confusing is the juxtaposition of troubadors and minstrels with bards by French romanticists in a later era.
Gandalf is a bard because in the creation of Middle Earth the gods sang it into being. Then they sang into being helpers. The reality of Middle Earth is a song and those helpers (Gandalf included) is tuning that song to manipulate that reality. It's hard not to see the parallel between LotR creation mythos and the bardic echoes of creation concept when looking at Gandalf.
That doesn't mean someone is wrong if he/she/they have a different opinion. Gandalf could be a sorcerer or druid based on reasons within the stories. He can also be a bard and that's not wrong either. It's opinion based on a non-D&D work and historical legend.
Most of those things your attributing to the Bard the bard only has because they've gone to being almost entirely a spell caster in 5e which they were not in previous editions and did not in fact have access to most of. Bards are not the only thing that have gone a whole lot more towards generic spell caster in 5e. Sorcerer's have lost much of their flavor in the shadow of wizards well and Bards mostly copy wizards at this point with just a bit of the cleric stuff thrown in for flavor and slightly different utility. It's this generic over leaning into spell casters that actually disappoints me a fair bit when it comes to the Artificer as well because a lot of unique flavor has been lost or turned purely into nonmechanical fluff.
As for Merlin's representation as a bard. I'd be careful with that. When you go searching you find that Despite trying to claim a bardic past to him one of the sources that pertains to this claims that it actually predates Geoffrey of Monmouth and his influence on Arthurian Legend but The best that it can be dated back is to after his death for certain and he was alive for a decent chunk of the questionable period that it is suspected to be written in. And the other major source that is listed to lay claim to a Bardic Heritage to Merlin was actually influenced and even contains some writings by Geoffrey of Monmouth. So neither are necessarily without his influence. There is also the fact that as i said. Song and Prose and Edda's were common to many oral styles, even that of the welsh which can easily give bardic flavor to some of it's heroes and legends even if they themselves did not possess it to make them more entertaining and more memorable. And that's all ignoring the fact that the link between the real life bard and the wizard in the legends is "well it could probably be him" but we don't really know and there is nothing truly substantial to make the link other than the guy was alive right around the rough time that the Arthurian Legend tends to be considered to stem from and in the right general area. Though there are signs that Arthurian Legend may actually be re-imaginings of older welsh legends into new characters and grander scope and it has been altered a number of times over the centuries to add in characters and various plot elements or to change things around.
I think technically, Gandalf is a character in a book, later some movies. That said, any debate over what he IS in D&D is philisophical, since he isn't in the D&D world. With that tidbit in mind, everyone may be wrong (or right) depending on the abilities and such of these "classes" in Middle Earth.
The debate is truly interesting, however, as it shows how by picking certain specs, and a specific list of spells, one can create their favored fantasy character. The sheer beauty of this is that this thread shows one can pick any of several classes and customize it with skills, feats and possibly even racial traits, to make it "fit" that fictional character. I think of a lot of Forgotten realms books (I only have about 200) where Rangers perform impossible swordsman feats, or Wizards cast insanely powerful spells, many of which are absent in the playing of D&D. To create a Ranger that fits typical Realms fiction, the Fighter ends up being a better base than Ranger, for the swordsmanship.
I guess the point of my post is to point out that there are several class combos one could use, to attain a very similar result. 3-4 vastly different starting points, to end up with a character that is essentially what you want. It's all in the path you choose.
Talk to your Players. Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
Please explain again when Gandalf (or Merlin, actually) does anything like this. I expect precise examples, and excerpts of books, not just your fancy. God knows I have copy/pasted tons of real excerpt from the books that plainly show that Gandalf is clearly not using music, song, or even speech for his magic.
Doesn't that mean he HAS to be a Sorcerer if he HAS to abide D&D rules (although why a fictional character is being strapped with an entirely different universe's rules I can't say) I don't know of any other class with the ability to cast spells without any verbal component. (Highly possible I missed something)
Talk to your Players. Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
The reason he doesn't have to be a sorcerer is because we never actually see how Gandalf prepares for the day. Any time a character gets up for the day and he's there he's already up and been doing his thing or getting ready to head out on some alternate task that is taking him away from the group to be dealt with. Even more interesting is the fact that we do actually get a depiction of Gandalf in a Trance in the way that elves do in D&D which is not a trait that is typical to humans but generally means they require much less rest than others in the party. We actually see this in Rohan when a certain young fool of a Took looks into the Crystal ball and connects with the eye that is the representation of the Mind of Sauron.
Bladesinging certainly has elements of Gandalf too. It's interesting to me how we think of Gandalf as one of the quintessential "wizards" but he doesn't really fit into the class perfectly. Contrast with Aragorn, for whom the ranger is more or less 1-1 based on him.
Considering I was saying that he doesn't have to be sorcerer because we don't see a Class Requirement. Your basically just restating what I said.