It seems like if you pick anything other than Moon, you get the shaft at 20. I was thinking that Druid could be reworked as integrating the Moon into all other circles so Wild Shape would be used the same throughout. Give every circle the ability to use the 1/3 level CR starting at 3 and then elemental shapes at 11 to coincide with a Fighter getting it's third attack and putting that power boost solidly into tier 3 territory. Now all Druids would be able to take advantage of the capstone instead of just Moon Druids (which most Druids I have played with are Moon). Thoughts?
No no no no no. The other Druid circles are balanced against not having improved wildshape. The Druid class as a whole, with circles taken into account, is balanced against the other classes.
This is gamebreaking, making Druids even more powerful than they already are. Druids are one of the best classes in the game.The level 20 buff is amazing for everyone, unlimited wildshapes means your survivability increases massively. This obviously the biggest boon for Moon Druids, but you give up all of the other buffs that the other subclasses get because you're choosing to focus only on wildshapes. This does not mean the level 20 feature isn't a massive boon for the other subclasses as well. They get more benefit from the rest of the Druid class as they level, however. That is balance. You cannot look at one level of feature and decide it's worse for one option than the other, you need to look at things as a whole.
I have played Moon, Shepherd, Land, and the UA Circle of Spores. All have been effective at what they were best at. Shepherd and Spores were probably my 2 favourites. Shepherd dominated combat control in a way a Moon druid would never be able to.
Could never do Spores, I hate fungus and always had issues with athlete's foot in dirty hockey showers. Seriously the most fungus riddled sport on earth.
It seems like if you pick anything other than Moon, you get the shaft at 20.
Is that a real concern? I've yet to see any 5e campaign reach lvl 20 (and even if one did, the resulting sessions would likely be a very small percentage of the overall campaign... and at that level being able to wildshape into an elephant might not even be a real consideration compared to the 9th lvl spells and such flying everywhere).
The capstone for Druid at 20 notwithstanding, that kind of even makes more sense that moon be worked into the other circles. Does it matter if you can be an elemental with 9th level spells being chucked? Probably not very much, so why not integrate the 1/3 CR to every circle.
I do think they are going to making content for end game. The new book has a lot of CR15 and up monsters which points to higher tier play. It's been the old chicken or egg question for WoTC for lvl 20 stuff. Not many people play to level 20 so why make content, but not too many people play to 20 because of lack of content. With MMO's having a lot of end game content and people being more attached to their characters, I personally would love some lvl 20 content for sure. I have a Wizard knocking on the door of 20 and a Sorcerer not too far away. Boons would be something neat to be able to explore!
The capstone for Druid at 20 notwithstanding, that kind of even makes more sense that moon be worked into the other circles.
No. Let Moon Druids have their thing.
Does it matter if you can be an elemental with 9th level spells being chucked?
Yes it does. You know what's better than taking ~140 damage from Meteor Swarm? Absorbing 90+ of that damage with your elemental form's HP.
so why not integrate the 1/3 CR to every circle.
Because that's the whole point of being a Moon Druid. They give up the extra spell slots and spell list from Circle of the Land, the totems and summoning buffs from Circle of the Shepherd and the healing and resting buffs of Circle of Dreams to have better Wild Shape.
If you don't like a spellcasting class's capstone, there's a super easy solution: take 1 level in any other spellcasting class. You don't lose any spell slots and now you have a whole second spell list to draw from, potentially new magic items you can attune to, probably multiple class features and possibly extra proficiencies.
Doesn't seem to be a good solution to arguably the best capstone for a class to say if you aren't moon, just multiclass. You may get the unlimited, but you have to take an action to chance, can't cast, nor are your attacks magical, and you are at CR1. Outside of Moon, it's just weak. I'm having a great time with my Moon right now, but I just don't see what the draws of the other circles are since a moon can do just about everything the others can plus insane wild shapes. Other capstones are weak so it lends you to multiclass later on like I am with my Wizard for a level of Rogue at 18 or 19, my sorcerer at 18, and my Bard that has 2 in Warlock already at lvl 10. But having a capstone that strong and not taking advantage of it just feels weird.
Doesn't seem to be a good solution to arguably the best capstone for a class to say if you aren't moon, just multiclass. You may get the unlimited, but you have to take an action to chance, can't cast, nor are your attacks magical, and you are at CR1. Outside of Moon, it's just weak. I'm having a great time with my Moon right now, but I just don't see what the draws of the other circles are since a moon can do just about everything the others can plus insane wild shapes. Other capstones are weak so it lends you to multiclass later on like I am with my Wizard for a level of Rogue at 18 or 19, my sorcerer at 18, and my Bard that has 2 in Warlock already at lvl 10. But having a capstone that strong and not taking advantage of it just feels weird.
You can cast as ANY Druid in wildshape starting from level 18. All Druids should go to 20, because it massively increases survivability. It does not matter if you cap at 1, being able to have an extra soak of HP while casting spells in beastform is sick.
I feel like you are too focused on wildshape, though. Druids do WAY more than wildshaping - that's just what Circle of the Moon focuses on. I have loved every Druid I've played, and in addition I've played with non Moon-circle Druids who have been the top of the party. Druids are one of the most complex and powerful classes in 5e. If you learn how to play your circle the way it's intended, you should be the best at what you're trying to do.
Instead of focusing on wildshape as the only thing for Druids, take a better look at what the other circles get to do that Moon druids never get access to. Those skills and strategies are where those other circles shine, and are why those Druids don't give a hoot if they have Moon druid wildshape abilities.
If you only want to play a druid of the Moon circle, that's all well and great-- just play a Moon druid! But that doesn't mean the other circles are underpowered, or don't get use out of the capstone.
Sincerely, Someone who has played most of the other Druid circles, and both loved it, and kicked ass with it.
I feel like you are too focused on wildshape, though. Druids do WAY more than wildshaping - that's just what Circle of the Moon focuses on. I have loved every Druid I've played, and in addition I've played with non Moon-circle Druids who have been the top of the party. Druids are one of the most complex and powerful classes in 5e. If you learn how to play your circle the way it's intended, you should be the best at what you're trying to do.
Exactly this.
If you focus on one aspect of druids (Wildshape) then you ignore all the things that a non-moon druid does better than a moon druid.
Land druids are baller support casters. The extended spell lists to prepare from, the bonus cantrip, and short rest spell regen make for a really good control/buff/heal type character. And you can still wildshape to escape combat if things get scary. Shepherd druids are the best summoners in the game, PERIOD. Nobody can do pets like they can. If you're not having your horde of creatures do combat for you as a shepherd and need wildshape to get involved, your doing it wrong. That said, you can always be the dire wolf alpha of your summoned wolf pack.
I can't speak to the other classes, but those 2 specifically are great on their own, without slapping on a bunch of other abilities to them. Would they be better with the moon druid abilities on them as well? Of course. The same way that clerics would be better if they could cast metamagic and wizards would be better if they could have 2 school specialties at the same time.
All your idea does is diminish moon druids. The subclasses are all great, but all work in different ways. If you want to play a druid, and you also want to be a melee combatant, play a moon druid. Otherwise, the other classes offer completely different play styles.
Doesn't seem to be a good solution to arguably the best capstone for a class to say if you aren't moon, just multiclass. You may get the unlimited, but you have to take an action to chance, can't cast, nor are your attacks magical, and you are at CR1. Outside of Moon, it's just weak.
You're vastly underestimating how insane it is that a 20th level druid can disguise themselves as a pigeon all day long and cast Storm of Vengeance or Earthquakewithout components. An archdruid can lay waste to an orc outpost and make it look like an act of god. They can't even be counterspelled.
Doesn't seem to be a good solution to arguably the best capstone for a class to say if you aren't moon, just multiclass. You may get the unlimited, but you have to take an action to chance, can't cast, nor are your attacks magical, and you are at CR1. Outside of Moon, it's just weak.
You're vastly underestimating how insane it is that a 20th level druid can disguise themselves as a pigeon all day long and cast Storm of Vengeance or Earthquakewithout components. An archdruid can lay waste to an orc outpost and make it look like an act of god. They can't even be counterspelled.
All while summoning armies of fey spirits/beasts to besiege the survivors Level 20 druids are the worst thing to piss off.
Doesn't seem to be a good solution to arguably the best capstone for a class to say if you aren't moon, just multiclass. You may get the unlimited, but you have to take an action to chance, can't cast, nor are your attacks magical, and you are at CR1. Outside of Moon, it's just weak.
You're vastly underestimating how insane it is that a 20th level druid can disguise themselves as a pigeon all day long and cast Storm of Vengeance or Earthquakewithout components. An archdruid can lay waste to an orc outpost and make it look like an act of god. They can't even be counterspelled.
You can perform the verbal and somatic spells while wildshaped, it doesn't say that you ignore those parts so you can be counterspelled. You won't be able to cast Earthquake or any other spell that has a material component to it..... but yes, that is pretty sick that a pigeon could storm of vengeance lol.
All these things you can do as a Moon Druid and have much higher CR forms to take advantage of the capstone. A pigeon casting storm of vengeance is much less terrifying than a T-Rex waxing it's little arms around to cast it haha
You can perform the verbal and somatic spells while wildshaped, it doesn't say that you ignore those parts so you can be counterspelled. You won't be able to cast Earthquake or any other spell that has a material component to it..... but yes, that is pretty sick that a pigeon could storm of vengeance lol.
Archdruid
At 20th level, you can use your Wild Shape an unlimited number of times.
Additionally, you can ignore the verbal and somatic components of your druid spells, as well as any material components that lack a cost and aren’t consumed by a spell. You gain this benefit in both your normal shape and your beast shape from Wild Shape.
All these things you can do as a Moon Druid and have much higher CR forms to take advantage of the capstone.
Yes, but again, that's what a Moon Druid is designed to do, and your claim was that Archdruid is borderline useless. It's clearly not. You're able to cast the majority of your spells without any components in either form, which not only makes you immune to counterspells, onlookers can't even tell who cast the spell unless it has a perceptible effect that originates from the caster. You're also able to function indefinitely in a wide variety of environments thanks to being able to maintain an animal form.
Yes, but again, that's what a Moon Druid is designed to do, and your claim was that Archdruid is borderline useless. It's clearly not. You're able to cast the majority of your spells without any components in either form, which not only makes you immune to counterspells, onlookers can't even tell who cast the spell unless it has a perceptible effect that originates from the caster. You're also able to function indefinitely in a wide variety of environments thanks to being able to maintain an animal form.
That's not what the level 18 feature says. It says "You can perform the verbal and somatic components of a druid spell while in beast shape, but you aren't able to provide material components." So you can counterspell as there is still a pigeon saying the spell and waving it's little pigeon wings around. You can try to stealth as said pigeon to oppose their perception as normal, but it is absolutely able to be counterspelled. You also cannot use any spell that has a material component associated with it while wildshaped, at any level.
Archdruid useless? I literally said it's the best capstone of any class earlier, that's opposite of useless. You are clearly missing that I am pointing out that it's just so much better for Moon druids than any other druid circle, and not by a small margin. Everyone else is capped at CR1 while Moon has CR 6! What I was saying is that maybe the Moon features should be the base features for the class and let the circles be what is currently out there on top of Moon so that way everyone can take advantage of the capstone that is clearly centered around Moon more than the other circles.
Just a thought on how to spread out the love a bit. I am loving my Moon druid so far and am not regretting that circle for a second.
Edit: Just turned that page and saw the other PARAGRAPH there is for Archdruid. HOLY BALLS! I was wrong!! lol It's SOOOO much better now too. still can counterspell and 18 or 19 druid but at 20, you are hosed! Best capstone is even better IMO and still much better for Moon than any other circle, by a loooooong way.
Yes, but again, that's what a Moon Druid is designed to do, and your claim was that Archdruid is borderline useless. It's clearly not. You're able to cast the majority of your spells without any components in either form, which not only makes you immune to counterspells, onlookers can't even tell who cast the spell unless it has a perceptible effect that originates from the caster. You're also able to function indefinitely in a wide variety of environments thanks to being able to maintain an animal form.
Edit: Just turned that page and saw the other PARAGRAPH there is for Archdruid. HOLY BALLS! I was wrong!! lol It's SOOOO much better now too. still can counterspell and 18 or 19 druid but at 20, you are hosed! Best capstone is even better IMO and still much better for Moon than any other circle, by a loooooong way.
Maybe? The other classes tend to be more focused on the spell casting side, which means they get more to do even more/better spells per day than moon druids. It's good for all of them.
Druid doesn't need a buff. They're not popular because they're Complex (polymorph-esque ability as a class feature, access to *all* spells in their spell list, a wide array of summoning options, and so forth). They're not unpopular due to being weak. Anyone who has played one or played with one knows they're already one of the most powerful classes in 5e, likely the most powerful. So why throw the meat of their most popular subclass into the rest of the subclasses, which are still very powerful in their own right, but are substantially more complex? (Moon Druid can focus on just being wildshaped and hitting things, using spell slots for utility out of combat when there's time to think and for healing in combat; all other druids rely on being combat casters and have substantially more to consider as to what they're doing each turn and resource management)
I'd argue the circles other than Moon are substantially less complex. Moon has all the casting ability of the other classes but has up to 3 CR's worth of creatures it can wild shape into on top of that. I never said they need a buff, just posed the question of a rework as the capstone is decidedly geared around the circle of the Moon more than the other circles. If you have a moon druid that only uses wild shape and never casts, he's druiding wrong lol.
Mike Mearls said that a design goal for 5e was to have one relatively simple subclass for each class (except for Warlock) in the PHB. I think most other people (including the leads on 5e) would agree that Moon is the simple subclass for Druids.
Moon druids get to sack the complexity of the base class for more shape options and healing in wildshape, whereas land (and the Xanathar's subclasses) add to the mechanical complexity of the class through an increased reliance on casting (instead of sacking slots for WS healing) and crunchier subclass abilities (such as Spirit Totems and Natural recovery).
Mike Mearls said that a design goal for 5e was to have one relatively simple subclass for each class (except for Warlock) in the PHB. I think most other people (including the leads on 5e) would agree that Moon is the simple subclass for Druids.
Wild Shape is more complicated (and generates more questions) than any other druid class feature. It requires a thorough understanding of monster stat blocks, which aren't even explained in the Player's Handbook. Having a couple of extra spells always prepared is super easy to understand.
The simple subclass is usually the first/free one.
It seems like if you pick anything other than Moon, you get the shaft at 20. I was thinking that Druid could be reworked as integrating the Moon into all other circles so Wild Shape would be used the same throughout. Give every circle the ability to use the 1/3 level CR starting at 3 and then elemental shapes at 11 to coincide with a Fighter getting it's third attack and putting that power boost solidly into tier 3 territory. Now all Druids would be able to take advantage of the capstone instead of just Moon Druids (which most Druids I have played with are Moon). Thoughts?
No no no no no. The other Druid circles are balanced against not having improved wildshape. The Druid class as a whole, with circles taken into account, is balanced against the other classes.
This is gamebreaking, making Druids even more powerful than they already are. Druids are one of the best classes in the game.The level 20 buff is amazing for everyone, unlimited wildshapes means your survivability increases massively. This obviously the biggest boon for Moon Druids, but you give up all of the other buffs that the other subclasses get because you're choosing to focus only on wildshapes. This does not mean the level 20 feature isn't a massive boon for the other subclasses as well. They get more benefit from the rest of the Druid class as they level, however. That is balance. You cannot look at one level of feature and decide it's worse for one option than the other, you need to look at things as a whole.
I have played Moon, Shepherd, Land, and the UA Circle of Spores. All have been effective at what they were best at. Shepherd and Spores were probably my 2 favourites. Shepherd dominated combat control in a way a Moon druid would never be able to.
Could never do Spores, I hate fungus and always had issues with athlete's foot in dirty hockey showers. Seriously the most fungus riddled sport on earth.
As a non Moon, do you Wildshape often?
The capstone for Druid at 20 notwithstanding, that kind of even makes more sense that moon be worked into the other circles. Does it matter if you can be an elemental with 9th level spells being chucked? Probably not very much, so why not integrate the 1/3 CR to every circle.
I do think they are going to making content for end game. The new book has a lot of CR15 and up monsters which points to higher tier play. It's been the old chicken or egg question for WoTC for lvl 20 stuff. Not many people play to level 20 so why make content, but not too many people play to 20 because of lack of content. With MMO's having a lot of end game content and people being more attached to their characters, I personally would love some lvl 20 content for sure. I have a Wizard knocking on the door of 20 and a Sorcerer not too far away. Boons would be something neat to be able to explore!
No. Let Moon Druids have their thing.
Yes it does. You know what's better than taking ~140 damage from Meteor Swarm? Absorbing 90+ of that damage with your elemental form's HP.
Because that's the whole point of being a Moon Druid. They give up the extra spell slots and spell list from Circle of the Land, the totems and summoning buffs from Circle of the Shepherd and the healing and resting buffs of Circle of Dreams to have better Wild Shape.
If you don't like a spellcasting class's capstone, there's a super easy solution: take 1 level in any other spellcasting class. You don't lose any spell slots and now you have a whole second spell list to draw from, potentially new magic items you can attune to, probably multiple class features and possibly extra proficiencies.
Doesn't seem to be a good solution to arguably the best capstone for a class to say if you aren't moon, just multiclass. You may get the unlimited, but you have to take an action to chance, can't cast, nor are your attacks magical, and you are at CR1. Outside of Moon, it's just weak. I'm having a great time with my Moon right now, but I just don't see what the draws of the other circles are since a moon can do just about everything the others can plus insane wild shapes. Other capstones are weak so it lends you to multiclass later on like I am with my Wizard for a level of Rogue at 18 or 19, my sorcerer at 18, and my Bard that has 2 in Warlock already at lvl 10. But having a capstone that strong and not taking advantage of it just feels weird.
Someone who has played most of the other Druid circles, and both loved it, and kicked ass with it.
If you focus on one aspect of druids (Wildshape) then you ignore all the things that a non-moon druid does better than a moon druid.
Land druids are baller support casters. The extended spell lists to prepare from, the bonus cantrip, and short rest spell regen make for a really good control/buff/heal type character. And you can still wildshape to escape combat if things get scary.
Shepherd druids are the best summoners in the game, PERIOD. Nobody can do pets like they can. If you're not having your horde of creatures do combat for you as a shepherd and need wildshape to get involved, your doing it wrong. That said, you can always be the dire wolf alpha of your summoned wolf pack.
I can't speak to the other classes, but those 2 specifically are great on their own, without slapping on a bunch of other abilities to them. Would they be better with the moon druid abilities on them as well? Of course. The same way that clerics would be better if they could cast metamagic and wizards would be better if they could have 2 school specialties at the same time.
All your idea does is diminish moon druids. The subclasses are all great, but all work in different ways. If you want to play a druid, and you also want to be a melee combatant, play a moon druid. Otherwise, the other classes offer completely different play styles.
Druid doesn't need a buff. They're not popular because they're Complex (polymorph-esque ability as a class feature, access to *all* spells in their spell list, a wide array of summoning options, and so forth). They're not unpopular due to being weak. Anyone who has played one or played with one knows they're already one of the most powerful classes in 5e, likely the most powerful. So why throw the meat of their most popular subclass into the rest of the subclasses, which are still very powerful in their own right, but are substantially more complex? (Moon Druid can focus on just being wildshaped and hitting things, using spell slots for utility out of combat when there's time to think and for healing in combat; all other druids rely on being combat casters and have substantially more to consider as to what they're doing each turn and resource management)
I'd argue the circles other than Moon are substantially less complex. Moon has all the casting ability of the other classes but has up to 3 CR's worth of creatures it can wild shape into on top of that. I never said they need a buff, just posed the question of a rework as the capstone is decidedly geared around the circle of the Moon more than the other circles. If you have a moon druid that only uses wild shape and never casts, he's druiding wrong lol.
Edit: I think many would disagree with you.
Mike Mearls said that a design goal for 5e was to have one relatively simple subclass for each class (except for Warlock) in the PHB. I think most other people (including the leads on 5e) would agree that Moon is the simple subclass for Druids.
Moon druids get to sack the complexity of the base class for more shape options and healing in wildshape, whereas land (and the Xanathar's subclasses) add to the mechanical complexity of the class through an increased reliance on casting (instead of sacking slots for WS healing) and crunchier subclass abilities (such as Spirit Totems and Natural recovery).
Eh, thinking on it a bit, I guess you are probably right.