I would like to hear everyone's opinion on what type of equipment a druid in a elemental form can wear. A elemental is a medium large creature with a humanoid shape. Seems like they should be able to wear anything a humanoid can. Below I have the part of the wild shape ability that is relevant for discussion:
You choose whether your equipment falls to the ground in your space, merges into your new form, or is worn by it. Worn equipment functions as normal, but the DM decides whether it is practical for the new form to wear a piece of equipment, based on the creature’s shape and size. Your equipment doesn’t change size or shape to match the new form, and any equipment that the new form can’t wear must either fall to the ground or merge with it. Equipment that merges with the form has no effect until you leave the form.
So I am thinking a elemental could wield a staff and wear armor for sure. Anyone have thoughts about other items like cloaks, rings, and amulets.
Besides the elemental form what other allowances have you seen in your games? Do DM's allow armor for animal forms like a World of Warcraft druid?
edit: corrected size of an elemental from medium to large
I don't allow armor retention. When I played a Druid, I thought maybe I could retain my armor when changing into an ape... but then it made no sense. Armor is pretty fitted equipment (even if it's adjustable, it can take awhile to adjust). Even for an elemental form it doesn't make sense to me to allow it, and complicates the game. (edit: aren't elementals Large sized? And aside from the earth elemental, are they really very humanoid shaped? I mean, they can move through a 1 inch wide space)
Amulets should be fine though, even for beast shapes. Rings maybe too. Cloaks?... that's starting to seem odd to me.
My short answer is not very much. Elemental are large, so most items just wouldn’t work. I’d allow necklaces, rings, staffs, amulets, and a few cloaks, but I wouldn’t allow much else.
If a normal elemental couldn’t use the item, then the answer would be no. Can you see a fire elemental using that isn’t metal? What about a water elemental trying to hide using a cloak of elvenkind that covers 1/4 of it’s back? But a rod of the python is something that I can see an elemental using successfully.
Ah, I missed the large size of the elementals. I suppose it makes sense no armor or cloaks. So you would allow rings, amulets and possibly weapons/staves? How about bracers?
Personally, I'm not seeing any big issue with allowing armor to conform to the new form. The elemental myrmidons all wear armor and wield weapons so there is a precedent. Would you consider a suit of magic armor specifically enchanted to conform with wildshapes? I believe a magic item similar to this has existed in past editions.
I have never played a druid and would like to but am thinking that the wildshape forms are weak at higher levels. Am I right? Would using bracers of protection and a magic scimitar make a air elemental broken?
Druids get more powerful wildshape forms as they go up in level. They scale with level.
Adding magic items to an elemental wouldn't be overpowered, but why would you prefer to use a magical scimitar over using the air elemental's slam attack that does 2d8+5 damage?
Also, the armor of an elemental is pretty reasonable - AC:17 for an Earth Elemental. You'd have to be wearing Plate to improve on that by a single point of AC.
Also, the armor of an elemental is pretty reasonable - AC:17 for an Earth Elemental. You'd have to be wearing Plate to improve on that by a single point of AC.
Well, a shield would certainly help a Earth Elemental and the other elementals could all benefit from armor and shield. I could see druids creating specially enchanted armor to beef up wild shaped forms. Seems like a natural progression for them. Especially in more war torn settings like Eberron.
Druids get more powerful wildshape forms as they go up in level. They scale with level.
Adding magic items to an elemental wouldn't be overpowered, but why would you prefer to use a magical scimitar over using the air elemental's slam attack that does 2d8+5 damage?
Well, druids do get more powerful forms as they level but it caps out at 18th level with CR 6 and in worlds with no dinosaurs your choices can be severely impacted. CR 5 elementals or a CR 6 mammoth are okay choices but don't seem up to 18th level play.
I admit that a magic scimitar may be weaker than a slam attack but this might depend on the enchantments on it or type of weapon. A barbarian/druid wielding a +2 maul (or a Hammer of Thunderbolts) in earth elemental form sounds like it may be pretty scary fun.
Adding magic items to an elemental wouldn't be overpowered, but why would you prefer to use a magical scimitar over using the air elemental's slam attack that does 2d8+5 damage?
Because some monsters are immune to nonmagical attacks?
Generally I've seen that it depends on the gear. Non magical gear can't be use another form, but magical gear states in the DMG "In most cases, a magic item that’s meant to be worn can fit a creature regardless of size or build. Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they magically adjust themselves to the wearer."
So, in the case of Magic Items if they can be worn on the form they could be, but it's pure GM fiat.
As per PHB pg. 144, non-magical equipment does not adjust, so you have two choices, drop or merge.
As per DMG pg. 140/141. Magical items do adjust to the wearer, no size limitation, and even strange pairings like rings on tentacles are OK, only not impossible ones like snakes have no feet for boots. So as long as the item is magical and it is physically possible to don such item(s), then they will adjust to fit the new wildshape form.
Now that RAW being said. You really have to make a couple of realistic choices. I am not aware of anything that would be on a Fire Elemental that wouldn't be damaged by it. The Heat Metal spell gives a great example of this. Gee, what would happen to a fire elemental holding a wooden staff? Answer: first kindling, then ash (and possibly an explosion???). Although Fire resistant items, that did other things, would be useful and not be ruined being worn.
And what would stay on an air or water elemental? Yes the ring of protection would adjust to the size of an appendage of the water elemental, but then fall through the water to land on the floor, even more so for the air elemental.
An Earth Elemental could don most things a humanoid can wear, as long as he was in his large humanoid form.
The best thing for the first three elements would be Ioun Stones. They circle the creature and don't even have to go through the magical adjustment in the change, as they don't attach to the body. The Earth should be able to make the transformation fairly easily, and has a far greater range of possibilities. For wands, rods, staves, weapons and various misc. items, you could just drop them/place them somewhere, and then just retrieve them after the transformation.
Well, druids do get more powerful forms as they level but it caps out at 18th level with CR 6 and in worlds with no dinosaurs your choices can be severely impacted. CR 5 elementals or a CR 6 mammoth are okay choices but don't seem up to 18th level play.
Ugh, I hate to necro a quote this far back, but this statement is partly true and partly false.
Yes, elementals at CR 5 are pretty okay at level 18. Their damage output is going to be pretty low compared to a well built player character. However, Druids decide that being elementals at level 18 is good, but not enough. You see, Druids get to use Beast Spells at level 18, regardless of circle, and it does apply to elementals as well (RAW explicitly states any shape, not just beast shapes). While you can't use spells that require material components , that still leaves you with some really powerful options, including the terrifying Storm of Vengeance.
Imagine this scene. You're walking along, chasing after a renegade Druid. You've not seen any signs of the Druid for days, almost as if there are no tracks. Suddenly, lightning thunders around you and you take damage from the deafening noise (2d6 thunder, CON save). Then, acid rain (1d6 acid, no save). Then, lightning bolts smite you and five of your allies for 10d6 lightning damage (DEX save). Then you all get bludgeoned for 2d6 (no save) by hail. Then, an incredible chill nips at you (1d6 cold, no save) for six turns as you scramble to escape. However, you can't, because the Druid who was flying over you in air elemental form swoops down and grapples you, soaking what little damage it takes into its temporary hitpoints (and, while Air Elementals cannot be grappled, it does not explicitly state that they cannot grapple, if I remember correctly). Once the storm passes, as your companions bleed out around you from the total of up to 25d6 damage, the Air Elemental bludgeons you to death with its two slam attacks, a +8 attack with 2d8+5 each. You can fight back, but it resists your attacks if they're Lightning, Thunder, or non-magical weapon attacks. At level 18, that's pretty hard to say that you're not competitive in elemental form, considering that each elemental gives you at least 90 HP and some resistances, that's going to make you somewhat tougher than other casters.
Once the same Druid reaches level 20, this becomes absurd. Why? Because that Druid can refresh that pool of temporary hitpoints every turn as a bonus action, or even switch forms, without running out of Wild Shape charges because they just don't care. A level 20 Druid can solo kill a tarrasque (admittedly, only under ideal circumstances and if the tarrasque is stupid enough to swallow the Druid, and it takes forever, but it's the only 100% safe way to kill a tarrasque alone that I've actually seen feasible ways to do, since all the other suggestions I've seen require absurd magic items or contrivances). Additionally, the spell list for a level 20 Druid in wild shape is huge, because they not only get to ignore verbal and somatic components (so that earth elemental pretending to be a boulder can toss spells at you without any movement or sound) but also any material components that aren't consumed.
Druids get the best combat buff in 5e: Foresight. This is why Druid elemental forms are powerful- you get advantage on basically everything, and can impose disadvantage. Yeah, 17 AC isn't going to make a level 18-20 Fighter miss, but add disadvantage and suddenly 17 AC is nothing to sneeze at. Add in advantage on all your saves and attacks, and you'll be whittling down enemies. It's not fast or pretty, but combined with an essentially limitless pool of HP (up to 126 per turn in earth elemental form, refreshed as a bonus action), spells that you can cast as long as you're not unconscious, and the ability to move in annoying ways, you've got a really powerful combatant. Even before 20, Druids can do more than some of their less magical counterparts can. At level 10, CR5 elementals are amazingly good, and at level 18 you still probably put the Ranger to shame once you've both tossed out your cool spells. You won't be top damage per turn against a good Fighter or melee build, but your defenses and movement options will be second to none.
Mind you, all of the cool shenanigans you can do in elemental form is an added bonus to all the core Druid features you get, which are pretty solid. Sure, CR5 isn't impressive next to the big bad end boss dragon, but being able to resist half of its damage each turn on a temporary pool of HP while still tossing damage at it is going to make you a pretty valuable party member.
Back to the original post, I had my druid keep wearing a magic ring when changing to giant wolf spider shape. I figured that a big spider would have something to put a ring on - pedipalps, limbs, hairs, something.
Back to the original post, I had my druid keep wearing a magic ring when changing to giant wolf spider shape. I figured that a big spider would have something to put a ring on - pedipalps, limbs, hairs, something.
I don't recall if it's explicit in 5e, but the way I've understood attuning magic items is that they can (usually) adapt to the wearer's physical stature. While there is a limitation to that adjustment, it mechanically serves the purpose of allowing characters to loot without having to go get armor refitted, swords re-balanced, etc. every treasure haul. Now, giant spiders are going to have a hard time wearing full plate- you can't necessarily adapt plate to change its number of limbs covered by "magic" unless your DM is very generous.
That said, I assume that magic rings size themselves when attuned and so if you have a limb or appendage that is reasonably sized for a ring, even if it's somewhat larger or smaller than normal, I think it can work, given that goliaths and gnomes can interchangeably use rings in 5e RAW. That said, particularly for magical jewelry, you could possibly argue that the magic benefit is from being attuned and in contact with the item, so you could even embed it into your shifted form if your DM allows it, almost like a Warforged embedding certain magic items.
Adding magic items to an elemental wouldn't be overpowered, but why would you prefer to use a magical scimitar over using the air elemental's slam attack that does 2d8+5 damage?
Because some monsters are immune to nonmagical attacks?
Hm. Primal Strike does specify Beast form. That's weird that the elemental forms aren't granted attacks that overcome magical resistance.
Back to the original post, I had my druid keep wearing a magic ring when changing to giant wolf spider shape. I figured that a big spider would have something to put a ring on - pedipalps, limbs, hairs, something.
As per the wording in the in the DMG that a ring o a tentacle would be fine, I would parallel that it would easily adjust to be on one of his legs.
Well, druids do get more powerful forms as they level but it caps out at 18th level with CR 6 and in worlds with no dinosaurs your choices can be severely impacted. CR 5 elementals or a CR 6 mammoth are okay choices but don't seem up to 18th level play.
Ugh, I hate to necro a quote this far back, but this statement is partly true and partly false.
Yes, elementals at CR 5 are pretty okay at level 18. Their damage output is going to be pretty low compared to a well built player character. However, Druids decide that being elementals at level 18 is good, but not enough. You see, Druids get to use Beast Spells at level 18, regardless of circle, and it does apply to elementals as well (RAW explicitly states any shape, not just beast shapes). While you can't use spells that require material components , that still leaves you with some really powerful options, including the terrifying Storm of Vengeance.
Squire Zed, I don't disagree that a high level druid is powerful. Or even that the elemental forms can be incredibly useful. I simply want to understand what other folks are allowing in their games with regards to wild shape and magic items.
Would you allow that 18+ level druid to wield a +3 shield and Staff of thunder and lightening as a elemental? A ring of spell turning? A robe of many eyes? Magic armor? Cloaks? etc?
Let's talk lower levels...can a 9th level druid assume Ape and go bananas with +1 hide armor, winged boots and a helm of teleport? Could a druid do that as a Lion? What forms would you allow or disallow if any?
I would like to hear everyone's opinion on what type of equipment a druid in a elemental form can wear. A elemental is a
mediumlarge creature with a humanoid shape. Seems like they should be able to wear anything a humanoid can. Below I have the part of the wild shape ability that is relevant for discussion:So I am thinking a elemental could wield a staff and wear armor for sure. Anyone have thoughts about other items like cloaks, rings, and amulets.
Besides the elemental form what other allowances have you seen in your games? Do DM's allow armor for animal forms like a World of Warcraft druid?
edit: corrected size of an elemental from medium to large
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I don't allow armor retention. When I played a Druid, I thought maybe I could retain my armor when changing into an ape... but then it made no sense. Armor is pretty fitted equipment (even if it's adjustable, it can take awhile to adjust). Even for an elemental form it doesn't make sense to me to allow it, and complicates the game. (edit: aren't elementals Large sized? And aside from the earth elemental, are they really very humanoid shaped? I mean, they can move through a 1 inch wide space)
Amulets should be fine though, even for beast shapes. Rings maybe too. Cloaks?... that's starting to seem odd to me.
My short answer is not very much. Elemental are large, so most items just wouldn’t work. I’d allow necklaces, rings, staffs, amulets, and a few cloaks, but I wouldn’t allow much else.
If a normal elemental couldn’t use the item, then the answer would be no. Can you see a fire elemental using that isn’t metal? What about a water elemental trying to hide using a cloak of elvenkind that covers 1/4 of it’s back? But a rod of the python is something that I can see an elemental using successfully.
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Ah, I missed the large size of the elementals. I suppose it makes sense no armor or cloaks. So you would allow rings, amulets and possibly weapons/staves? How about bracers?
Personally, I'm not seeing any big issue with allowing armor to conform to the new form. The elemental myrmidons all wear armor and wield weapons so there is a precedent. Would you consider a suit of magic armor specifically enchanted to conform with wildshapes? I believe a magic item similar to this has existed in past editions.
I have never played a druid and would like to but am thinking that the wildshape forms are weak at higher levels. Am I right? Would using bracers of protection and a magic scimitar make a air elemental broken?
Current Characters I am playing: Dr Konstantin van Wulf | Taegen Willowrun | Mad Magnar
Check out my homebrew: Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Feats
Druids get more powerful wildshape forms as they go up in level. They scale with level.
Adding magic items to an elemental wouldn't be overpowered, but why would you prefer to use a magical scimitar over using the air elemental's slam attack that does 2d8+5 damage?
Professional computer geek
Also, the armor of an elemental is pretty reasonable - AC:17 for an Earth Elemental. You'd have to be wearing Plate to improve on that by a single point of AC.
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Current Characters I am playing: Dr Konstantin van Wulf | Taegen Willowrun | Mad Magnar
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Current Characters I am playing: Dr Konstantin van Wulf | Taegen Willowrun | Mad Magnar
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Circle of the Moon Druids attacks in beast form are counted as magical when they hit 6th level and they can’t turn into elemental until 10th level.
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Generally I've seen that it depends on the gear. Non magical gear can't be use another form, but magical gear states in the DMG "In most cases, a magic item that’s meant to be worn can fit a creature regardless of size or build. Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they magically adjust themselves to the wearer."
So, in the case of Magic Items if they can be worn on the form they could be, but it's pure GM fiat.
Relevant Sage Advice:
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/03/09/can-druid-use-magical-armor-when-wild-shaped/
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/02/24/druid-wildshape-does-magical-armor-shape-with-the-new-animal-form-and-retain-ac/
neither of which off a clean ruling for AL sadly.
As per PHB pg. 144, non-magical equipment does not adjust, so you have two choices, drop or merge.
As per DMG pg. 140/141. Magical items do adjust to the wearer, no size limitation, and even strange pairings like rings on tentacles are OK, only not impossible ones like snakes have no feet for boots. So as long as the item is magical and it is physically possible to don such item(s), then they will adjust to fit the new wildshape form.
Now that RAW being said. You really have to make a couple of realistic choices. I am not aware of anything that would be on a Fire Elemental that wouldn't be damaged by it. The Heat Metal spell gives a great example of this. Gee, what would happen to a fire elemental holding a wooden staff? Answer: first kindling, then ash (and possibly an explosion???). Although Fire resistant items, that did other things, would be useful and not be ruined being worn.
And what would stay on an air or water elemental? Yes the ring of protection would adjust to the size of an appendage of the water elemental, but then fall through the water to land on the floor, even more so for the air elemental.
An Earth Elemental could don most things a humanoid can wear, as long as he was in his large humanoid form.
The best thing for the first three elements would be Ioun Stones. They circle the creature and don't even have to go through the magical adjustment in the change, as they don't attach to the body. The Earth should be able to make the transformation fairly easily, and has a far greater range of possibilities. For wands, rods, staves, weapons and various misc. items, you could just drop them/place them somewhere, and then just retrieve them after the transformation.
Ugh, I hate to necro a quote this far back, but this statement is partly true and partly false.
Yes, elementals at CR 5 are pretty okay at level 18. Their damage output is going to be pretty low compared to a well built player character. However, Druids decide that being elementals at level 18 is good, but not enough. You see, Druids get to use Beast Spells at level 18, regardless of circle, and it does apply to elementals as well (RAW explicitly states any shape, not just beast shapes). While you can't use spells that require material components , that still leaves you with some really powerful options, including the terrifying Storm of Vengeance.
Imagine this scene. You're walking along, chasing after a renegade Druid. You've not seen any signs of the Druid for days, almost as if there are no tracks. Suddenly, lightning thunders around you and you take damage from the deafening noise (2d6 thunder, CON save). Then, acid rain (1d6 acid, no save). Then, lightning bolts smite you and five of your allies for 10d6 lightning damage (DEX save). Then you all get bludgeoned for 2d6 (no save) by hail. Then, an incredible chill nips at you (1d6 cold, no save) for six turns as you scramble to escape. However, you can't, because the Druid who was flying over you in air elemental form swoops down and grapples you, soaking what little damage it takes into its temporary hitpoints (and, while Air Elementals cannot be grappled, it does not explicitly state that they cannot grapple, if I remember correctly). Once the storm passes, as your companions bleed out around you from the total of up to 25d6 damage, the Air Elemental bludgeons you to death with its two slam attacks, a +8 attack with 2d8+5 each. You can fight back, but it resists your attacks if they're Lightning, Thunder, or non-magical weapon attacks. At level 18, that's pretty hard to say that you're not competitive in elemental form, considering that each elemental gives you at least 90 HP and some resistances, that's going to make you somewhat tougher than other casters.
Once the same Druid reaches level 20, this becomes absurd. Why? Because that Druid can refresh that pool of temporary hitpoints every turn as a bonus action, or even switch forms, without running out of Wild Shape charges because they just don't care. A level 20 Druid can solo kill a tarrasque (admittedly, only under ideal circumstances and if the tarrasque is stupid enough to swallow the Druid, and it takes forever, but it's the only 100% safe way to kill a tarrasque alone that I've actually seen feasible ways to do, since all the other suggestions I've seen require absurd magic items or contrivances). Additionally, the spell list for a level 20 Druid in wild shape is huge, because they not only get to ignore verbal and somatic components (so that earth elemental pretending to be a boulder can toss spells at you without any movement or sound) but also any material components that aren't consumed.
Druids get the best combat buff in 5e: Foresight. This is why Druid elemental forms are powerful- you get advantage on basically everything, and can impose disadvantage. Yeah, 17 AC isn't going to make a level 18-20 Fighter miss, but add disadvantage and suddenly 17 AC is nothing to sneeze at. Add in advantage on all your saves and attacks, and you'll be whittling down enemies. It's not fast or pretty, but combined with an essentially limitless pool of HP (up to 126 per turn in earth elemental form, refreshed as a bonus action), spells that you can cast as long as you're not unconscious, and the ability to move in annoying ways, you've got a really powerful combatant. Even before 20, Druids can do more than some of their less magical counterparts can. At level 10, CR5 elementals are amazingly good, and at level 18 you still probably put the Ranger to shame once you've both tossed out your cool spells. You won't be top damage per turn against a good Fighter or melee build, but your defenses and movement options will be second to none.
Mind you, all of the cool shenanigans you can do in elemental form is an added bonus to all the core Druid features you get, which are pretty solid. Sure, CR5 isn't impressive next to the big bad end boss dragon, but being able to resist half of its damage each turn on a temporary pool of HP while still tossing damage at it is going to make you a pretty valuable party member.
Agreed completely. RAW I think a 20th level Moon Druid is more powerful than any other 20th level character, and I love playing Wizards and Warlocks!
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Back to the original post, I had my druid keep wearing a magic ring when changing to giant wolf spider shape. I figured that a big spider would have something to put a ring on - pedipalps, limbs, hairs, something.
I don't recall if it's explicit in 5e, but the way I've understood attuning magic items is that they can (usually) adapt to the wearer's physical stature. While there is a limitation to that adjustment, it mechanically serves the purpose of allowing characters to loot without having to go get armor refitted, swords re-balanced, etc. every treasure haul. Now, giant spiders are going to have a hard time wearing full plate- you can't necessarily adapt plate to change its number of limbs covered by "magic" unless your DM is very generous.
That said, I assume that magic rings size themselves when attuned and so if you have a limb or appendage that is reasonably sized for a ring, even if it's somewhat larger or smaller than normal, I think it can work, given that goliaths and gnomes can interchangeably use rings in 5e RAW. That said, particularly for magical jewelry, you could possibly argue that the magic benefit is from being attuned and in contact with the item, so you could even embed it into your shifted form if your DM allows it, almost like a Warforged embedding certain magic items.
Hm. Primal Strike does specify Beast form. That's weird that the elemental forms aren't granted attacks that overcome magical resistance.
As per the wording in the in the DMG that a ring o a tentacle would be fine, I would parallel that it would easily adjust to be on one of his legs.
Squire Zed, I don't disagree that a high level druid is powerful. Or even that the elemental forms can be incredibly useful. I simply want to understand what other folks are allowing in their games with regards to wild shape and magic items.
Would you allow that 18+ level druid to wield a +3 shield and Staff of thunder and lightening as a elemental? A ring of spell turning? A robe of many eyes? Magic armor? Cloaks? etc?
Let's talk lower levels...can a 9th level druid assume Ape and go bananas with +1 hide armor, winged boots and a helm of teleport? Could a druid do that as a Lion? What forms would you allow or disallow if any?
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