In addition some magic items such as necklaces, cloaks, rings, and bracers can still be work when a Moon Druid Wild Shapes into some forms.
I’m playing a Moon Druid who has a Ring of Water Walking right now and my DM lets him wear it when he’s a Dire Wolf, but not when he’s a Quipper because Quippers don’t have any appendages that he could wear a ring on.
I've been thinking about this. I agree with most of the thread, natural weapons are NOT, unarmed strikes.
This thread has mentioned some of the more beastial PC races have exceptions: Tabaxi, Lizardfolk, etc...
Wildshape says you retain any benefits which your original form has that your new form can use. Correct?
Lizardfolk Bite: "Your fanged maw is a natural weapon, which you can use to make unarmed strikes. If you hit with it, you deal piercing damage equal to 1d6 + your Strength modifier, instead of the bludgeoning damage normal for an unarmed strike."
My question is IF a Lizardfolk Druid turns into a Tiger, does the Tiger's bite become a monk weapon because there Lizardfolk's racial feature grandfathers it in?
"Bite.Melee Weapon Attack: +5 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 8 (1d10 + 3) piercing damage."
Also would the Lizardfolk retain the use of Hungry Jaws?
Natural weapons are weapons according to the monster manual. (MM p10/11) Not unarmed attacks and appear nowhere on the monk weapon list.
Natural Armour and dex may account for a monsters AC. (MM p7) If a creature has natural armour listed in its AC description, it has it. IF it has it Unarmored defense of a monk can be considered unusable. The creature has armour after all. A barbarians Unarmored defense is technically also at risk as Natural Armour is not on the armour table list for medium or light armours. Ask your DM before planning a hybrid!
Wildshape as has been mentioned, quoted and copy pasted here is not equipment friendly. Anything merged is 'somewhere else' and out of play. Anything the form chooses not to merge drops to the ground, or with a generous DM can remain 'worn or carried' If it fits and wouldnt have ripped in the change and/or garotted /broken limbs in the transformation. Nothing then stops you being armoured up by another party member with oposable thumbs, but of course no metal armour, your a druid after all.
An addendum to Wildshape briefly touched on at the end:
Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast, but you retain your alignment, personality, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature. If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature’s bonus instead of yours.
The emphasis is mine and mentioned in regard to your wildform having access to original form traits. Sadly it doesnt get many. The attacks remain what they are except benefit from a higher proficiency bonus increasing the chance to hit. The hitpoints remain what they are, the resistances remain what they are, the movement remains what they are - that stat block is what you get except for the exceptions that follow. The benefits of your original form would have to be ones that dont alter or effect those statistics. It was a sad day indeed when toughness was JC'ed to the dustbin of history but an issue of game balance - If a 7th level druid has +14 hitpoints each time they transform they have 14 hitpoints extra. The banhammer hit and the emphasis on the above was reinforced.
The second section makes this more confusing - here it is
You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so. However, you can’t use any of your special senses, such as darkvision, unless your new form also has that sense.
This is not a situation where you are allowed to choose one or the other as you like, both must be obeyed. So to benefit from a feature of your original form that would transfer, it would have to be something that didnt alter the statistics of the beast. Perhaps a barbarians rage or paladins smite?
This is where the crazy comes back and makes a mess of things. In the constant barrage for clarifications it has been mentioned that racial traits such as bugbears and goliaths powerful build would transfer over to the animal form as though its the most natural thing in the world. Just think about that and if you dont flinch at how little sense it makes none of what has been laid out here is likely to change your opinion.
Regardless, please continue to enjoy your games and be a part of others enjoyment. Never forget the social aspect and soak up every moment whilst you can.
Natural Weapons are not monk weapons, but if you're a "bestial race" as people mentioned above then Claws, Hooves, or Bites's natural weapons are also unarmed strikes and therefore monk weapons. Theoretically this means those races would gain the benefit of that while in Wild Shape.
Natural Armor, the text about wearing armor is "you aren’t wearing armor or wielding a shield". I don't think anyone would consider natural armor to be "wearing" armor, and therefor shouldn't violate the ability to use Unarmored Defense. It would be odd to single those out Also Sage Advice says the Dev intended it as such: https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/01/14/druid-monk-unarmored-defense-in-shapeshift-form/
Wildshape & Items: I agree with everything you have there. The only thing I've kinda wanted to know is how magic items interact as they specifically have a line "Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they magically adjust themselves to the wearer." in the DMG. I'm uncertain if this interacts with Wild Shape or if it only adjusts during a Short Rest. As for putting metal barding on a Druid, I still maintain that as per the rules a Druid isn't stopped from wearing it, it just says they don't do it. It's compared to being a taboo not divine intervention.
Wildshape & Proficiency: From what I understand of "If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature’s bonus instead of yours." Means you don't get a higher chance of hit. So a lvl 2 Moon Druid and a lvl 20 Moon Druid turn into a Brown Bear, both of them only have a +6 to hit, because, the lvl 20 doesn't benefit from having 4 more proficiency bonus. I think it's explained that you're not "proficient" with natural weapons so you don't get an increased chance to hit.
Sidenote: I'm super dissapointed in the Developer's Ruling of Toughness. I really don't see how some spending a feat to get some extra hp in Wildshape would be broken. Especially since the HP should be based off of the creature you turn into's Hit Dice, not the Druids. But c'est la vie it will remain in the dust bin of poorly designed feats.
All of this means that I think WildShape was probably one of their most poorly thought out feature designs in 5e... which is sad, because an entire Druid SubClass is built around and it's one of the coolest features of Druid, so you'd think it would have had more attention. I mean the idea that Dragonborn keep their breath weapon because it's "magic" not "physiology" as well as every other races weirdness.
Wildshape & Proficiency: From what I understand of "If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature’s bonus instead of yours." Means you don't get a higher chance of hit. So a lvl 2 Moon Druid and a lvl 20 Moon Druid turn into a Brown Bear, both of them only have a +6 to hit, because, the lvl 20 doesn't benefit from having 4 more proficiency bonus. I think it's explained that you're not "proficient" with natural weapons so you don't get an increased chance to hit.
I read this as applying to skill and saving throw proficiencies, not for attacks.
FMB and Lunali. These are some of the issues with wildshape, and to be fair there is unlikely to be a sensible comprehensive answer to resolve any of them because of the individual components that have had clarifications requested of them have made the whole of the ability a scarred mess. What can you do except check with your DM before considering it?
I acknowledge the armor point FMB, a lot of people think that way, but I think of a tortle monk claiming unarmored defense whilst moving around in effective heavy armour bonded to its skin and I just dont see it. The armor and attack definitions in the game at there most simple are:
Is it a spell attack or a weapon attack
You can have one type of armour and dex (+possibly shield)
If you have armor including natural armor for my personal tastes there is no possibility of claiming you arent wearing armor, you are and its bulking you up, it doesnt matter whether its skin, fur, scales. If its contributing to your AC then its armor. (its not a problem right now but if necromantic or other grafts return to 5th then this definition will prevent trouble later) Again every DM is going to rule differently. Thats not a bad thing as it means each game has its difference, but its a shame that it stems from a class ability rather than flavour.
Now as for weapons - I thought the idea that if someone had proficiency in a natural weapon it would have proficiency in all natural weapons was an interesting one, I considered that along the lines of weapon proficiencies and it could go either way. It also made the point about proficiency applying to natural weapons for a druid a little more confusing. I have been forced to re-evaluate whether druids would gain proficiency to hit in druid form by your points, thank you. At the same time using the lizard man example do you think that a lizardman proficient in natural attacks (bite) would then add proficiency to all natural attacks in any form? Personally I can see that tweeted out of existence as it applies to Bite/lizardman individually not blanket natural weapon attacks.
Adding the proficiency to hit for a druid may be a mistake by rules, It allowed the lower cr druid forms to have better odds of hitting later. Much like my issue with bonded armour being ignored when its beneficial I struggle with the concept that a druid would be un-proficient in the bodies of the creatures they spend hours of their day in. Its solveable with training I guess, but that door can lead to more problems later.
TL:DR Wildshape is messy, check with your DM before you choose druid if you plan to wildshape as more than flavour. If you want to choose Monk /druid Double check with the DM!
"Natural" armor & unarmored defense are incompatible. It's not that a creature with natural armor cannot utilize unarmored defense... they're just mutually exclusive. You can only benefit from one AC calculation at a time, but you get to choose which calculation you use. Tortle monks have a floor of 17 AC, but if they have a combined +8 modifier from Dexterity and Wisdom, they can choose to use the unarmored AC calculation instead.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
The player races with natural weapons are given proficiency in unarmed strikes and their natural weapons are modifications to unarmed strikes. The feature does not apply to wild shape natural weapons, because this attacks are not unarmed strikes, though they are capable of making them.
To say that natural armor counts as armored means that all races with natural armor can't be monks (as the main monk features require them to be unarmored). This is absolutely not what is intended. WotC has stated several times that all races should be able to play any class. Furthermore, it would mean that the defense fighting style should buff them, and it doesn't.
Hm . . . Could a Kensei Monk choose to make one of the wildshape form attacks (such as Slam) into their monk weapon?
No. Kensei weapons must be an actual simple or martial weapon (i.e., on the table of weapons), and it must lack the Heavy or Special properties.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Most if not all entries for beasts and other creatures that would be applicable to wild shape (or most shape shifting spells) list their attacks specifically as "melee weapon attacks" even if they are made with their natural weapons such as claws and teeth.
In fact the only real exceptions to these are the explicitly stated racial "natural weapon" attacks and only for that specific body part (such as claws or teeth) and those racial abilities state that they replace the normal unarmed attack for that particular usage. (and possibly Alter Self. I don't remember what the spell specifically says)
So Tabaxi claws technically count as unarmed attacks for Martial Arts of Monks at first level (and even do the 1d6 damage per martial arts rules), but a dire wolfs claws or bite do not as they are melee weapons that do not appear on the monk list. (note the 1d6 would only be a benefit for the first 3 levels and only a slight one at best. It's not worth building around.) This same issue applies with trying to apply say Tabaxi claws abilities to the melee weapon attacks of the dire wolf without reguards to martial arts as well. They are explicitely stated as different and thus incompatible.
The Druid and Monk Classes despite looking highly compatible at a glance actually do not synergize or work together almost at all. many class abilities of the monks like Stunning strikes don't actually carry over either because many of them mention requiring to be done by an unarmed strike or martial weapon, or as an additional affect to an ability that requires an unarmed strike or martial weapon. check their wording carefully. There is only possibly 1 or 2 that might actually work. And I wouldn't trust even that.
In addition some magic items such as necklaces, cloaks, rings, and bracers can still be work when a Moon Druid Wild Shapes into some forms.
I’m playing a Moon Druid who has a Ring of Water Walking right now and my DM lets him wear it when he’s a Dire Wolf, but not when he’s a Quipper because Quippers don’t have any appendages that he could wear a ring on.
Professional computer geek
I've been thinking about this. I agree with most of the thread, natural weapons are NOT, unarmed strikes.
This thread has mentioned some of the more beastial PC races have exceptions: Tabaxi, Lizardfolk, etc...
Wildshape says you retain any benefits which your original form has that your new form can use. Correct?
Lizardfolk Bite: "Your fanged maw is a natural weapon, which you can use to make unarmed strikes. If you hit with it, you deal piercing damage equal to 1d6 + your Strength modifier, instead of the bludgeoning damage normal for an unarmed strike."
My question is IF a Lizardfolk Druid turns into a Tiger, does the Tiger's bite become a monk weapon because there Lizardfolk's racial feature grandfathers it in?
"Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +5 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 8 (1d10 + 3) piercing damage."
Also would the Lizardfolk retain the use of Hungry Jaws?
After reading it closely, I'd say no. The Lizardfolk bite does not mention being an unarmed strike like other racial features.
However, as I mentioned on the previous page of this thread, any creature can perform an unarmed strike using the rules for doing so from the PHB.
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It specifically says "Your fanged maw is a natural weapon, which you can use to make unarmed strikes."
Ah! My bad. I read the wrong trait. I'd allow it in place of a beast form's unarmed strike.
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Messy.
Natural weapons are weapons according to the monster manual. (MM p10/11) Not unarmed attacks and appear nowhere on the monk weapon list.
Natural Armour and dex may account for a monsters AC. (MM p7) If a creature has natural armour listed in its AC description, it has it. IF it has it Unarmored defense of a monk can be considered unusable. The creature has armour after all. A barbarians Unarmored defense is technically also at risk as Natural Armour is not on the armour table list for medium or light armours. Ask your DM before planning a hybrid!
Wildshape as has been mentioned, quoted and copy pasted here is not equipment friendly. Anything merged is 'somewhere else' and out of play. Anything the form chooses not to merge drops to the ground, or with a generous DM can remain 'worn or carried' If it fits and wouldnt have ripped in the change and/or garotted /broken limbs in the transformation. Nothing then stops you being armoured up by another party member with oposable thumbs, but of course no metal armour, your a druid after all.
An addendum to Wildshape briefly touched on at the end:
The emphasis is mine and mentioned in regard to your wildform having access to original form traits. Sadly it doesnt get many. The attacks remain what they are except benefit from a higher proficiency bonus increasing the chance to hit. The hitpoints remain what they are, the resistances remain what they are, the movement remains what they are - that stat block is what you get except for the exceptions that follow. The benefits of your original form would have to be ones that dont alter or effect those statistics. It was a sad day indeed when toughness was JC'ed to the dustbin of history but an issue of game balance - If a 7th level druid has +14 hitpoints each time they transform they have 14 hitpoints extra. The banhammer hit and the emphasis on the above was reinforced.
The second section makes this more confusing - here it is
This is not a situation where you are allowed to choose one or the other as you like, both must be obeyed. So to benefit from a feature of your original form that would transfer, it would have to be something that didnt alter the statistics of the beast. Perhaps a barbarians rage or paladins smite?
This is where the crazy comes back and makes a mess of things. In the constant barrage for clarifications it has been mentioned that racial traits such as bugbears and goliaths powerful build would transfer over to the animal form as though its the most natural thing in the world. Just think about that and if you dont flinch at how little sense it makes none of what has been laid out here is likely to change your opinion.
Regardless, please continue to enjoy your games and be a part of others enjoyment. Never forget the social aspect and soak up every moment whilst you can.
Natural Weapons are not monk weapons, but if you're a "bestial race" as people mentioned above then Claws, Hooves, or Bites's natural weapons are also unarmed strikes and therefore monk weapons. Theoretically this means those races would gain the benefit of that while in Wild Shape.
Natural Armor, the text about wearing armor is "you aren’t wearing armor or wielding a shield". I don't think anyone would consider natural armor to be "wearing" armor, and therefor shouldn't violate the ability to use Unarmored Defense. It would be odd to single those out
Also Sage Advice says the Dev intended it as such: https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/01/14/druid-monk-unarmored-defense-in-shapeshift-form/
Wildshape & Items: I agree with everything you have there. The only thing I've kinda wanted to know is how magic items interact as they specifically have a line "Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they magically adjust themselves to the wearer." in the DMG. I'm uncertain if this interacts with Wild Shape or if it only adjusts during a Short Rest.
As for putting metal barding on a Druid, I still maintain that as per the rules a Druid isn't stopped from wearing it, it just says they don't do it. It's compared to being a taboo not divine intervention.
Wildshape & Proficiency: From what I understand of "If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature’s bonus instead of yours." Means you don't get a higher chance of hit. So a lvl 2 Moon Druid and a lvl 20 Moon Druid turn into a Brown Bear, both of them only have a +6 to hit, because, the lvl 20 doesn't benefit from having 4 more proficiency bonus. I think it's explained that you're not "proficient" with natural weapons so you don't get an increased chance to hit.
Sidenote: I'm super dissapointed in the Developer's Ruling of Toughness. I really don't see how some spending a feat to get some extra hp in Wildshape would be broken. Especially since the HP should be based off of the creature you turn into's Hit Dice, not the Druids. But c'est la vie it will remain in the dust bin of poorly designed feats.
All of this means that I think WildShape was probably one of their most poorly thought out feature designs in 5e... which is sad, because an entire Druid SubClass is built around and it's one of the coolest features of Druid, so you'd think it would have had more attention. I mean the idea that Dragonborn keep their breath weapon because it's "magic" not "physiology" as well as every other races weirdness.
I read this as applying to skill and saving throw proficiencies, not for attacks.
FMB and Lunali. These are some of the issues with wildshape, and to be fair there is unlikely to be a sensible comprehensive answer to resolve any of them because of the individual components that have had clarifications requested of them have made the whole of the ability a scarred mess. What can you do except check with your DM before considering it?
I acknowledge the armor point FMB, a lot of people think that way, but I think of a tortle monk claiming unarmored defense whilst moving around in effective heavy armour bonded to its skin and I just dont see it. The armor and attack definitions in the game at there most simple are:
Is it a spell attack or a weapon attack
You can have one type of armour and dex (+possibly shield)
If you have armor including natural armor for my personal tastes there is no possibility of claiming you arent wearing armor, you are and its bulking you up, it doesnt matter whether its skin, fur, scales. If its contributing to your AC then its armor. (its not a problem right now but if necromantic or other grafts return to 5th then this definition will prevent trouble later) Again every DM is going to rule differently. Thats not a bad thing as it means each game has its difference, but its a shame that it stems from a class ability rather than flavour.
Now as for weapons - I thought the idea that if someone had proficiency in a natural weapon it would have proficiency in all natural weapons was an interesting one, I considered that along the lines of weapon proficiencies and it could go either way. It also made the point about proficiency applying to natural weapons for a druid a little more confusing. I have been forced to re-evaluate whether druids would gain proficiency to hit in druid form by your points, thank you. At the same time using the lizard man example do you think that a lizardman proficient in natural attacks (bite) would then add proficiency to all natural attacks in any form? Personally I can see that tweeted out of existence as it applies to Bite/lizardman individually not blanket natural weapon attacks.
Adding the proficiency to hit for a druid may be a mistake by rules, It allowed the lower cr druid forms to have better odds of hitting later. Much like my issue with bonded armour being ignored when its beneficial I struggle with the concept that a druid would be un-proficient in the bodies of the creatures they spend hours of their day in. Its solveable with training I guess, but that door can lead to more problems later.
TL:DR Wildshape is messy, check with your DM before you choose druid if you plan to wildshape as more than flavour. If you want to choose Monk /druid Double check with the DM!
FMB & Moon:
"Natural" armor & unarmored defense are incompatible. It's not that a creature with natural armor cannot utilize unarmored defense... they're just mutually exclusive. You can only benefit from one AC calculation at a time, but you get to choose which calculation you use. Tortle monks have a floor of 17 AC, but if they have a combined +8 modifier from Dexterity and Wisdom, they can choose to use the unarmored AC calculation instead.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
The player races with natural weapons are given proficiency in unarmed strikes and their natural weapons are modifications to unarmed strikes. The feature does not apply to wild shape natural weapons, because this attacks are not unarmed strikes, though they are capable of making them.
To say that natural armor counts as armored means that all races with natural armor can't be monks (as the main monk features require them to be unarmored). This is absolutely not what is intended. WotC has stated several times that all races should be able to play any class. Furthermore, it would mean that the defense fighting style should buff them, and it doesn't.
Hm . . . Could a Kensei Monk choose to make one of the wildshape form attacks (such as Slam) into their monk weapon?
No. Kensei weapons must be an actual simple or martial weapon (i.e., on the table of weapons), and it must lack the Heavy or Special properties.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Most if not all entries for beasts and other creatures that would be applicable to wild shape (or most shape shifting spells) list their attacks specifically as "melee weapon attacks" even if they are made with their natural weapons such as claws and teeth.
In fact the only real exceptions to these are the explicitly stated racial "natural weapon" attacks and only for that specific body part (such as claws or teeth) and those racial abilities state that they replace the normal unarmed attack for that particular usage. (and possibly Alter Self. I don't remember what the spell specifically says)
So Tabaxi claws technically count as unarmed attacks for Martial Arts of Monks at first level (and even do the 1d6 damage per martial arts rules), but a dire wolfs claws or bite do not as they are melee weapons that do not appear on the monk list. (note the 1d6 would only be a benefit for the first 3 levels and only a slight one at best. It's not worth building around.) This same issue applies with trying to apply say Tabaxi claws abilities to the melee weapon attacks of the dire wolf without reguards to martial arts as well. They are explicitely stated as different and thus incompatible.
The Druid and Monk Classes despite looking highly compatible at a glance actually do not synergize or work together almost at all. many class abilities of the monks like Stunning strikes don't actually carry over either because many of them mention requiring to be done by an unarmed strike or martial weapon, or as an additional affect to an ability that requires an unarmed strike or martial weapon. check their wording carefully. There is only possibly 1 or 2 that might actually work. And I wouldn't trust even that.
While you won't be able to use your monk abilities with the beast's natural weapons, you can still make unarmed strikes while in beast form.