I would use the rules. If either is proficient, use the skill bonus from the proficient form. If both are, use the higher.
To be clear, my answer to any question on any skill will be to use (depending on proficiencies):
caster ability mod plus caster proficiency
creature skill bonus
caster ability mod (wis, int, cha)
or creature ability mod (str, dex, con)
I never think it is the correct option to try to work out what the creature's proficiency bonus was or how its stats were calculated because there are some creatures with mystery bonuses that don't line up with the CR/proficiency bonus table and because that information can't always be determined from the monster's stat block with any certainty.
RAW only tells which to choose when you share proficiency, because otherwise your statistics are replaced by the creatures (except for mental statistics and those proficiencies). That does lead to some weird situations where your stat mod might be higher than the skill bonus of a creature or vice versa. RAF, I'd say you could use the higher one in that situation too, but RAW, I'm not sure what to do there. If mixing and matching proficiency bonuses and ability mods from the caster and creature were really the RAW way to do it, they sure would have explained how that is supposed to work.
My intent, when reopening that thread, was to request clarification from DDB/WotC on the Wild Shape rules... precisely to avoid that kind of debate - that I find quite energy/time consuming, not very effective (never saw a consensus), and sometimes a bit unfriendly.
You are free to consider that option 2 matches RAW (I understand you'd be sticking with +1 for A and C, but I've seen people argue that RAW lead to +4 in that case) ; I guess I overreacted to your criticism of SquireZed's post, as I share most of his reading of the rules. You might want to listen to the Sage Advice segment of that Dragon Talk though ; as unofficial it may be, it does clarify the designer's intent. Ability checks are discussed at ~12:10.
Compute all of your skill bonuses as either the ability mod (creature's physical, your mental) or the sum of that ability mod and your proficiency bonus (when either form gives you proficiency).
Use the skill bonus in the creature's stat block if it is higher.
Which option is that?
This seems reasonable, and also easy enough. You also never need to try to figure out the proficiency bonus of the creature. My one question with it is, isn't your proficiency bonus a game statistic?
You might want to listen to the Sage Advice segment of that Dragon Talk though ; as unofficial it may be, it does clarify the designer's intent. Ability checks are discussed at ~12:10.
Again, happy Giant Centipede wrestling!
They say it works the way I described it.
The beast's STR, DEX, CON, your INT, WIS, CHA for whatever skill plus your proficiency bonus. If that number is lower than the skill modifier on the beast's stats, use the beast's stats instead.
That is what the RAW says, that is what I said, that is what sage advice said.
Uhh, giant centipedes would have low STR and be bad at grappling (even with high proficiency bonus), as we've been over.
As you wrote it, it would be option 4, used by DxJxC. If you add "when both have proficiency" to your second bullet, it would be option 1. And if you favor JC's "Use your proficiency bonus for anything where you're both proficient, but only if yours is higher, but you use the physical stats of the beast.", look at option 3 - because "yours" (unfortunately) clearly refers to "proficiency bonus" in that sentence.
Hence my conclusion : we need some Sage Advice Compendium errata on this :-)
@DxJxC :
See the "L" example from my first recap : options 1, 3 and 4 share the same results, but option 2 (that was advocated by WolfOfTheBees) tells a different story.
As you wrote it, it would be option 4, used by DxJxC. If you add "when both have proficiency" to your second bullet, it would be option 1.
I see. Well, maybe I should have added that because it is certainly written in the wildshape rule and seems to be how they discuss it, but I think actually it might be identical with or without that wording. In this interpretation if either form is proficient in a skill, then the skill bonus minimum is ability mod(of the correct form) + caster's proficiency bonus. The only way that your skill bonus is not this value is if you are both the beast is proficient and the has some other + to its skill. In that case, you can select to use the beasts. That actually fits quite well with the wording in the rule.
But that still doesn't address the issue of this interpretation: isn't your proficiency bonus a game statistic not covered by the exceptions?
RAI you clearly keep your proficiency bonus ; and I can't figure out what would happen if you didn't (what does "having proficiency" mean if you have neither proficiency bonus, nor skill bonus, such as what happens for proficiencies that you retain?), so...
But that's indeed another argument asking for an errata :-)
I know this thread is getting old, but is this bug still active? It appears to be. I just want to confirm if we need to be tracking some of these skill bonuses ourselves or if we can rely on the sheet.
DDB computes wildshape the same way it did when this thread was created. A giant wolf spider on my druid shows a stealth of (Dex bonus + proficiency bonus) which is below the +7 value in the beast's stat block.
DDB computes wildshape the same way it did when this thread was created. A giant wolf spider on my druid shows a stealth of (Dex bonus + proficiency bonus) which is below the +7 value in the beast's stat block.
So either it is still wrong, or they are interpreting the rule differently and are leaving it as is. Would be nice to know either way. Unfortunately there is no clear answer from Crawford or WoTC on this. Updated wording in the Sage Advice Compendium would be really nice.
Well, Jeremy has made at least part of this clear (which is why stormknight notes it is a bug way earlier in the thread): however you calculate your new proficiency bonuses (the confusing part that hasn't been clarified), you should be able to look at the bonus in the beast's stat block and if it is higher you should use it. If you wild shape into a giant wolf spider, your stealth bonus should have a minimum value of 7 since that is what the plain beast gets.
Well, Jeremy has made at least part of this clear [...] you should be able to look at the bonus in the beast's stat block and if it is higher you should use it. If you wild shape into a giant wolf spider, your stealth bonus should have a minimum value of 7 since that is what the plain beast gets.
Did he ?
Your conclusion omits the "if you both have proficiency" part (=difference between option 1 and option 4), while Jeremy never does in the various clarification attempts I've seen. If you spotted another one, I'm interested in adding it to the list !
(Obviously, I agree with erogroth : thanks for the thread bumping!)
Yes. None of those "clarifications" are counter to what I said, which is actually from one of those clarifications (the Dragon Talk episode). All of those clarifications attempt to address how you would calculate the druid's proficiencies, and they actually seem to be relatively self-consistent if not all laid out at once. Above that, they all tend to be written from the most obvious reading of the feature.
But the particular bug is about one of the beast's proficiencies in its stat block. None of those clarifications address changing the values of proficiency in the beast's stat block or say that you shouldn't use it if it is higher. Let me repeat myself. It is intended that if the beast is proficient, then now matter how you calculate the druid's bonus for that skill, if the bonus already printed in the beast's stat block in the monster manual is higher, you can use that.
To put it another way which is completely consistent with the rules, if there is a + in a beast's stat block, that is the absolute minimum value of the bonus to that skill. That is true of any interpretation of whildshape that at all resembles RAW, but not how DDB currently works. It is a bug.
I'm sorry - but I don't want to let future readers go with the idea that a consensus has been reached :)
I think I'm starting to see your logic (which is now option 4, am I right?); when the rules mention:
You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature
Your idea is that the skill proficiency comes with its own skill bonus - and thus can be used "as is" no matter what? Is this what you mean?
I'd be interested in the excerpt from Dragon Talk you are using to reach that conclusion. Personnaly, I mostly focused on the following part, at 12:15:
Now, there is a thing here, where if you and the stat block that you've just assumed, this creature ; if you have the same proficiency, you use whicheverone is higher.
So let's say that you transform into a creature that has proficiency in the stealth skill ; and you also have proficiency in the stealth skill. But you take a look at the stat block and like "wait a second, this beast is actually better at stealth than I am!", well thenuse the beast's stealth not yours.
Ifthe creature has the same proficiency as youandthe bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature’s bonus instead of yours.
Which I find logically equivalent to : Don'tuse the creature's bonusifyou don't have the same proficiencyorit's bonus is lower.
Hence, my leaning towards Option 1 - but again, I'm mostly requesting official clarification so that we don't have to argue between users. If it's a bug as Stormknight said, I'd love to know how they intend to fix it!
On a side note : Hey Bluemoon93, glad to see you lurking around here :) Looks like you changed your mind though ?
You are saying that you wild shape into a beast that has a proficiency that you don't, then you lose that proficiency (and are stuck using your non-proficient bonus)?!? That is dynamically equivalent to not gaining the proficiency of the beast and is strictly against the part of the wild shape feature that says you gain the proficiencies of the beast. That is wrong.
Edit: There are 4 options when it comes to proficiency: Neither is proficient, the druid is, the beast is, or both are. The sentence you seem to be misanalyzing above is only applicable when both are proficient, when there is a question as to what bonus you might use. When only the beast is proficient, you use the proficiency from that source. What is the bonus that a beast gets to a skill that it is proficient in? The one in its stat block.
I'll take your reference to E.Nida's work as a fair and funny response to my excessive use of external hyperlinks ; if part of this is really relevant to this discussion, please let me know, as I'm more at ease with logic than translation.
About the "druid has no proficiency, beast has" situation : I've already given some examples earlier : look at option 1. I think that the druid gains the beast's proficiencies (e.g, for an ape : stealth and perception, NOT +5 and +3), and then applies its own proficiency bonus on top of the relevant ability modifier (the ape's strength, and the druid's wisdom, respectively).
This is the way I understand the Rules as Written - and it is fine if you don't !
I don't think we can all reach a consensus on the rule, but I'd like us to reach a consensus on the fact that they need some official wording update - ideally, through Sage Advice Compendium, and if not at least from D&D:B - as they have been working to "get that resolved soon" for more than 6 months now...
I believe, from the talks of JC, that the rules are intended to lead to the least number of calculations for the players.
So, take the proficiencies of the druid and the beast together. Apply the relevant modifier plus the druid proficiency bonus, if the druid lacks that proficiency. Then take the highest number.
No need to go through the beast proficiency bonus, which is a number not available in the stats block by the way.
I'll take your reference to E.Nida's work as a fair and funny response to my excessive use of external hyperlinks ; if part of this is really relevant to this discussion, please let me know, as I'm more at ease with logic than translation.
About the "druid has no proficiency, beast has" situation : I've already given some examples earlier : look at option 1. I think that the druid gains the beast's proficiencies (e.g, for an ape : stealth and perception, NOT +5 and +3), and then applies its own proficiency bonus on top of the relevant ability modifier (the ape's strength, and the druid's wisdom, respectively).
This is the way I understand the Rules as Written - and it is fine if you don't !
I don't think we can all reach a consensus on the rule, but I'd like us to reach a consensus on the fact that they need some official wording update - ideally, through Sage Advice Compendium, and if not at least from D&D:B - as they have been working to "get that resolved soon" for more than 6 months now...
Well, the link was a bit of a joke, but this is somewhat like translation with an issue in the functional vs formal result of that interpretation.
Why would you have to calculate the ape's athletics and perception? Those numbers are literally written down for you.
@WolfOfTheBees : I'm not calculating the ape's athletics and perception skill bonuses. My druid just gained 2 proficiencies from wild shape, and thus I'm calculating my druid's wild-shaped skill bonuses. The Wild Shape rules tell me I can't use the ape's athletics and perception skill bonuses anyway, as I did not have proficiency in the first place.
@filcat : Welcome ; I understand you'd use option 4 then ! I hope you understand why I'm considering option 1. Fun fact : it does not require the use of the beast's proficiency bonus, and leads to even less calculations!
@WolfOfTheBees : I'm not calculating the ape's athletics and perception skill bonuses. My druid just gained 2 proficiencies from wild shape
Yes, from the beast. Your game statistics are replaced by the beast's. That means you gain the skill bonuses in its stat block.
, and thus I'm calculating my druid's wild-shaped skill bonuses.
Well, wildshape doesn't ask you to do that. In fact, wild shape doesn't ask you to do any calculations, albeit your physical stats do change, thus necessitating some bonus updates for your own proficiencies. And again, you needn't calculate the beast's since you gained the skill bonuses in the beast's stat block.
The Wild Shape rules tell me I can't use the ape's athletics and perception skill bonuses anyway, as I did not have proficiency in the first place.
It does? No, it only clarifies that you can use the better bonus when there are two sources of proficiency, and thus two different bonuses. If there is only one source of proficiency, then there aren't two ways to choose between. You shouldn't need clarification on which to choose when there isn't a choice, so the authors didn't write a redundant sentence. This goes back to the very first sentence of wildshape: your game statistics are replaced by the beast's. That means you get everything in the stat block in addition to what you retain.
I would use the rules. If either is proficient, use the skill bonus from the proficient form. If both are, use the higher.
To be clear, my answer to any question on any skill will be to use (depending on proficiencies):
I never think it is the correct option to try to work out what the creature's proficiency bonus was or how its stats were calculated because there are some creatures with mystery bonuses that don't line up with the CR/proficiency bonus table and because that information can't always be determined from the monster's stat block with any certainty.
RAW only tells which to choose when you share proficiency, because otherwise your statistics are replaced by the creatures (except for mental statistics and those proficiencies). That does lead to some weird situations where your stat mod might be higher than the skill bonus of a creature or vice versa. RAF, I'd say you could use the higher one in that situation too, but RAW, I'm not sure what to do there. If mixing and matching proficiency bonuses and ability mods from the caster and creature were really the RAW way to do it, they sure would have explained how that is supposed to work.
Believe it or not, we all do !
My intent, when reopening that thread, was to request clarification from DDB/WotC on the Wild Shape rules... precisely to avoid that kind of debate - that I find quite energy/time consuming, not very effective (never saw a consensus), and sometimes a bit unfriendly.
You are free to consider that option 2 matches RAW (I understand you'd be sticking with +1 for A and C, but I've seen people argue that RAW lead to +4 in that case) ; I guess I overreacted to your criticism of SquireZed's post, as I share most of his reading of the rules. You might want to listen to the Sage Advice segment of that Dragon Talk though ; as unofficial it may be, it does clarify the designer's intent. Ability checks are discussed at ~12:10.
Again, happy Giant Centipede wrestling!
JC seems to say:
Which option is that?
This seems reasonable, and also easy enough. You also never need to try to figure out the proficiency bonus of the creature. My one question with it is, isn't your proficiency bonus a game statistic?
They say it works the way I described it.
The beast's STR, DEX, CON, your INT, WIS, CHA for whatever skill plus your proficiency bonus. If that number is lower than the skill modifier on the beast's stats, use the beast's stats instead.
That is what the RAW says, that is what I said, that is what sage advice said.
Uhh, giant centipedes would have low STR and be bad at grappling (even with high proficiency bonus), as we've been over.
@WolfdOfTheBees
As you wrote it, it would be option 4, used by DxJxC.
If you add "when both have proficiency" to your second bullet, it would be option 1.
And if you favor JC's "Use your proficiency bonus for anything where you're both proficient, but only if yours is higher, but you use the physical stats of the beast.", look at option 3 - because "yours" (unfortunately) clearly refers to "proficiency bonus" in that sentence.
Hence my conclusion : we need some Sage Advice Compendium errata on this :-)
@DxJxC :
See the "L" example from my first recap : options 1, 3 and 4 share the same results, but option 2 (that was advocated by WolfOfTheBees) tells a different story.
I see. Well, maybe I should have added that because it is certainly written in the wildshape rule and seems to be how they discuss it, but I think actually it might be identical with or without that wording. In this interpretation if either form is proficient in a skill, then the skill bonus minimum is ability mod(of the correct form) + caster's proficiency bonus. The only way that your skill bonus is not this value is if
you are boththe beast is proficient and the has some other + to its skill. In that case, you can select to use the beasts.That actually fits quite well with the wording in the rule.But that still doesn't address the issue of this interpretation: isn't your proficiency bonus a game statistic not covered by the exceptions?
I haven't thought about this as toroughly ; I just used the consensus I found on rpg.se.
RAI you clearly keep your proficiency bonus ; and I can't figure out what would happen if you didn't (what does "having proficiency" mean if you have neither proficiency bonus, nor skill bonus, such as what happens for proficiencies that you retain?), so...
But that's indeed another argument asking for an errata :-)
I know this thread is getting old, but is this bug still active? It appears to be. I just want to confirm if we need to be tracking some of these skill bonuses ourselves or if we can rely on the sheet.
DDB computes wildshape the same way it did when this thread was created. A giant wolf spider on my druid shows a stealth of (Dex bonus + proficiency bonus) which is below the +7 value in the beast's stat block.
So either it is still wrong, or they are interpreting the rule differently and are leaving it as is. Would be nice to know either way. Unfortunately there is no clear answer from Crawford or WoTC on this. Updated wording in the Sage Advice Compendium would be really nice.
Well, Jeremy has made at least part of this clear (which is why stormknight notes it is a bug way earlier in the thread): however you calculate your new proficiency bonuses (the confusing part that hasn't been clarified), you should be able to look at the bonus in the beast's stat block and if it is higher you should use it. If you wild shape into a giant wolf spider, your stealth bonus should have a minimum value of 7 since that is what the plain beast gets.
Did he ?
Your conclusion omits the "if you both have proficiency" part (=difference between option 1 and option 4), while Jeremy never does in the various clarification attempts I've seen. If you spotted another one, I'm interested in adding it to the list !
(Obviously, I agree with erogroth : thanks for the thread bumping!)
Yes. None of those "clarifications" are counter to what I said, which is actually from one of those clarifications (the Dragon Talk episode). All of those clarifications attempt to address how you would calculate the druid's proficiencies, and they actually seem to be relatively self-consistent if not all laid out at once. Above that, they all tend to be written from the most obvious reading of the feature.
But the particular bug is about one of the beast's proficiencies in its stat block. None of those clarifications address changing the values of proficiency in the beast's stat block or say that you shouldn't use it if it is higher. Let me repeat myself. It is intended that if the beast is proficient, then now matter how you calculate the druid's bonus for that skill, if the bonus already printed in the beast's stat block in the monster manual is higher, you can use that.
To put it another way which is completely consistent with the rules, if there is a + in a beast's stat block, that is the absolute minimum value of the bonus to that skill. That is true of any interpretation of whildshape that at all resembles RAW, but not how DDB currently works. It is a bug.
I'm sorry - but I don't want to let future readers go with the idea that a consensus has been reached :)
I think I'm starting to see your logic (which is now option 4, am I right?); when the rules mention:
Your idea is that the skill proficiency comes with its own skill bonus - and thus can be used "as is" no matter what? Is this what you mean?
I'd be interested in the excerpt from Dragon Talk you are using to reach that conclusion. Personnaly, I mostly focused on the following part, at 12:15:
It mostly repeats the wild shape rules we already know:
Which I find logically equivalent to : Don't use the creature's bonus if you don't have the same proficiency or it's bonus is lower.
Hence, my leaning towards Option 1 - but again, I'm mostly requesting official clarification so that we don't have to argue between users. If it's a bug as Stormknight said, I'd love to know how they intend to fix it!
On a side note : Hey Bluemoon93, glad to see you lurking around here :) Looks like you changed your mind though ?
You are saying that you wild shape into a beast that has a proficiency that you don't, then you lose that proficiency (and are stuck using your non-proficient bonus)?!? That is dynamically equivalent to not gaining the proficiency of the beast and is strictly against the part of the wild shape feature that says you gain the proficiencies of the beast. That is wrong.
Edit: There are 4 options when it comes to proficiency: Neither is proficient, the druid is, the beast is, or both are. The sentence you seem to be misanalyzing above is only applicable when both are proficient, when there is a question as to what bonus you might use. When only the beast is proficient, you use the proficiency from that source. What is the bonus that a beast gets to a skill that it is proficient in? The one in its stat block.
I'll take your reference to E.Nida's work as a fair and funny response to my excessive use of external hyperlinks ; if part of this is really relevant to this discussion, please let me know, as I'm more at ease with logic than translation.
About the "druid has no proficiency, beast has" situation : I've already given some examples earlier : look at option 1. I think that the druid gains the beast's proficiencies (e.g, for an ape : stealth and perception, NOT +5 and +3), and then applies its own proficiency bonus on top of the relevant ability modifier (the ape's strength, and the druid's wisdom, respectively).
This is the way I understand the Rules as Written - and it is fine if you don't !
I don't think we can all reach a consensus on the rule, but I'd like us to reach a consensus on the fact that they need some official wording update - ideally, through Sage Advice Compendium, and if not at least from D&D:B - as they have been working to "get that resolved soon" for more than 6 months now...
I would like to chime in this discussion.
I believe, from the talks of JC, that the rules are intended to lead to the least number of calculations for the players.
So, take the proficiencies of the druid and the beast together. Apply the relevant modifier plus the druid proficiency bonus, if the druid lacks that proficiency. Then take the highest number.
No need to go through the beast proficiency bonus, which is a number not available in the stats block by the way.
Well, the link was a bit of a joke, but this is somewhat like translation with an issue in the functional vs formal result of that interpretation.
Why would you have to calculate the ape's athletics and perception? Those numbers are literally written down for you.
@WolfOfTheBees : I'm not calculating the ape's athletics and perception skill bonuses. My druid just gained 2 proficiencies from wild shape, and thus I'm calculating my druid's wild-shaped skill bonuses. The Wild Shape rules tell me I can't use the ape's athletics and perception skill bonuses anyway, as I did not have proficiency in the first place.
@filcat : Welcome ; I understand you'd use option 4 then ! I hope you understand why I'm considering option 1. Fun fact : it does not require the use of the beast's proficiency bonus, and leads to even less calculations!
Yes, from the beast. Your game statistics are replaced by the beast's. That means you gain the skill bonuses in its stat block.
Well, wildshape doesn't ask you to do that. In fact, wild shape doesn't ask you to do any calculations, albeit your physical stats do change, thus necessitating some bonus updates for your own proficiencies. And again, you needn't calculate the beast's since you gained the skill bonuses in the beast's stat block.
It does? No, it only clarifies that you can use the better bonus when there are two sources of proficiency, and thus two different bonuses. If there is only one source of proficiency, then there aren't two ways to choose between. You shouldn't need clarification on which to choose when there isn't a choice, so the authors didn't write a redundant sentence. This goes back to the very first sentence of wildshape: your game statistics are replaced by the beast's. That means you get everything in the stat block in addition to what you retain.