. WotC can tell me what i CAN or CANNOT do. I choose what I WILL or WILLNOT do.
Then I guess you're not a Druid. 🤷🏼
You know, because Druids will not wear metal armour.
Point is, you're free to do what you want but don't come in here and try to tell people they're wrong because you disagree with what's written in the book.
Just because they will not, does not mean that they can't. There is no rule prohibiting a druid from wearing metal armor, and if they intended what you are implying then they shouldn't have given Druids proficiency in metal armor. Druids typicially won't wear metal armor due to taboo, which means it is an RP reason to not wear metal armor, not a RAW reason. There is nothing RAW that prevents you from wearing metal armor. The "will not" implies that druids have a choice to wear metal armor and most simply choose not to, not that they can't or that they are prohibited from doing so mechanically.
. WotC can tell me what i CAN or CANNOT do. I choose what I WILL or WILLNOT do.
Then I guess you're not a Druid. 🤷🏼
You know, because Druids will not wear metal armour.
Point is, you're free to do what you want but don't come in here and try to tell people they're wrong because you disagree with what's written in the book.
Just because they will not, does not mean that they can't. There is no rule prohibiting a druid from wearing metal armor, and if they intended what you are implying then they shouldn't have given Druids proficiency in metal armor. Druids typicially won't wear metal armor due to taboo, which means it is an RP reason to not wear metal armor, not a RAW reason. There is nothing RAW that prevents you from wearing metal armor. The "will not" implies that druids have a choice to wear armor and most simply choose not to, not that they can't or that they are prohibited from doing so mechanically.
^^^^^ this!
I couldn't care less if WOTC mechanically decides that medium metal armor is overpowered and removed. Good on them. I 100% have issue with the idea that they get to determine what choices my character makes. Additionally, the concept goes counter of their stated goal of mentally re-skinning things. The fact is, a RULE would say that they CAN'T do it. They can, and explicitly. They try to pass off some fluff as "they just refuse" and that sits wrong. It's NOT a rule. It's a suggestion. When they come out and just give druids light armor only, I will happily abide by that restriction because my complaint is not about the numbers. It's about the idea that they can use awkward phrasing in an attempt to force some RP flavor down my mouth. No.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
. WotC can tell me what i CAN or CANNOT do. I choose what I WILL or WILLNOT do.
Then I guess you're not a Druid. 🤷🏼
You know, because Druids will not wear metal armour.
Point is, you're free to do what you want but don't come in here and try to tell people they're wrong because you disagree with what's written in the book.
Just because they will not, does not mean that they can't. There is no rule prohibiting a druid from wearing metal armor, and if they intended what you are implying then they shouldn't have given Druids proficiency in metal armor. Druids typicially won't wear metal armor due to taboo, which means it is an RP reason to not wear metal armor, not a RAW reason. There is nothing RAW that prevents you from wearing metal armor. The "will not" implies that druids have a choice to wear armor and most simply choose not to, not that they can't or that they are prohibited from doing so mechanically.
You, like so many others, are missing the point. And we─I─have covered this already.
Medium armor is medium armor. Druids can wear medium armor, but that medium armor will not be made of metal. They have their reasons, and that's fine. If you want to play a druid, abide by this. But this does not mean a druid cannot acquire armor made from exotic materials. In Storm King's Thunder, there are stone breastplates (worth 250 gp) that druids could wear. In DDEX3-11 The Quest for Sporedom, there's a suit of Half Plate of Poison Resistance made from petrified mushrooms. Heck, Hoard of the Dragon Queen has a suit of White Dragon Scale Mail on an NPC the party could potentially fight, kill, and loot.
And while we don't know how hot Heat Metal can get, it's not hot enough to melt iron or forge steel. The iron needs to be heated to 1,700 degrees Celcius (3,000 degrees Fahrenheit). Lava, which does anywhere from 10d10 to 18d10 fire damage in the DMG, depending on whether you're wading or fully submerged, only gets to about 1,250 degrees Celcius. And Heat Metal just can't get anywhere near that high. The best it can manage is 9d8 fire damage, and that's with a 9th-level spell slot when you could be warping reality, instead.
And all that is from page three.
What you, and so many others, want is to throw out class identity in favor of a slightly higher number on a sheet of paper.
I couldn't care less if WOTC mechanically decides that medium metal armor is overpowered and removed. Good on them. I 100% have issue with the idea that they get to determine what choices my character makes. Additionally, the concept goes counter of their stated goal of mentally re-skinning things. The fact is, a RULE would say that they CAN'T do it. They can, and explicitly. They try to pass off some fluff as "they just refuse" and that sits wrong. It's NOT a rule. It's a suggestion. When they come out and just give druids light armor only, I will happily abide by that restriction because my complaint is not about the numbers. It's about the idea that they can use awkward phrasing in an attempt to force some RP flavor down my mouth. No.
Would you prefer a hose or a fire extinguisher for your pants?
The only person making the decision for your character is you. Druids choose not to wear metal armor, and you're choosing whether to play a druid. If you want some medium armor besides hide, talk with your DM to reskin something. You cannot simply pretend that reskinning is an expressed goal and then not reskin to suit your purposes.
Make your scale mail out of something else than metal scales. Pay a special price and/or go on a quest to get the special material. Work with your DM to come up with a neat story. This isn't difficult. And, no, you don't need this to be spelled out for you in the text. They, the writing team, are trusting you're all smart enough to figure this out on your own. They're selling you a book, but the game is yours. Anything less would mean insulting the intelligence of the reader, and nobody here should be aiming to do that.
That's a choice. My druid absolutely will wear metal armor as long as it's on the proficiency list. JC has even said that it's a flavor choice and not a balance choice.
Saying a character /chooses/ to not do something is beyond WotC's purvue. That's an RP decision. If they don't want me wearing metal armor, remove it from my proficiency list. Until then, I can, and will wear it because them saying my character will choose to not do so, is incorrect.
Once again, the choice is made by the player when they choose to play as a druid.
If you want another example of an "RP decision" being forced onto players, each Sacred Oath a paladin might take has specific tenants. Is that acceptable to you, or is that yet another example of writer overreach?
This is a dumb argument. "Will not" does not imply prohibition. It implies personal choice, and given the way it is framed, it is most definetly a flavor option that can be ignored, as there is no explicit prohibition from metal armor, and it does not say that Druids do not have profiency in metal armor, just that they won't wear it, meaning that they are choosing not to wear it instead of the rules explicitly prohibiting you from wearing them. If what you say is RAI, then they should have made druids not proficient in metal armor RAW. But they absolutely are proficent in metal armor, but they just choose to not wear it, which once again comes down to Player choice, and Roleplay. It isn't a rule that druids have to wear metal armor, and anyone claiming otherwise is just outright wrong and misinterpreting the language of that single statement and the corresponding SAC.
Also, "the choice is made by the player when they choose to play as a druid.", literally all examples of situations like this have almost been completely stripped from 5e already, Tasha's made where Race's no longer have fixed stat increases, so if that is now the design philosophy, then it stands to reason that the same logic can be applied to this single phrase. That it is stating what most druids do, not that you the player are restricted from metal armor. I
The book doesn't state what "most" Druids do. It states what all Druids will not do. If you are a Druid you will not wear metal armour or shields. Will not does not imply a choice. Will not, in this instance, implies a requirement.
In order to be a Druid you will not wear metal armour or shields. Phrased another way, if you wear metal armour or shields then you are not a Druid.
I couldn't care less if WOTC mechanically decides that medium metal armor is overpowered and removed. Good on them. I 100% have issue with the idea that they get to determine what choices my character makes. Additionally, the concept goes counter of their stated goal of mentally re-skinning things. The fact is, a RULE would say that they CAN'T do it. They can, and explicitly. They try to pass off some fluff as "they just refuse" and that sits wrong. It's NOT a rule. It's a suggestion. When they come out and just give druids light armor only, I will happily abide by that restriction because my complaint is not about the numbers. It's about the idea that they can use awkward phrasing in an attempt to force some RP flavor down my mouth. No.
Would you prefer a hose or a fire extinguisher for your pants?
The only person making the decision for your character is you. Druids choose not to wear metal armor, and you're choosing whether to play a druid. If you want some medium armor besides hide, talk with your DM to reskin something. You cannot simply pretend that reskinning is an expressed goal and then not reskin to suit your purposes.
Make your scale mail out of something else than metal scales. Pay a special price and/or go on a quest to get the special material. Work with your DM to come up with a neat story. This isn't difficult. And, no, you don't need this to be spelled out for you in the text. They, the writing team, are trusting you're all smart enough to figure this out on your own. They're selling you a book, but the game is yours. Anything less would mean insulting the intelligence of the reader, and nobody here should be aiming to do that.
You can 'cover' it all you want. Oh, what else gets to shapeshift? What gets access to the druid's primal spells? If I want those things, I have to choose the druid chassis. If they didn't want me wearing metal armor, they had the option to not give me proficiency in it. They didn't go that route. Don't give me something then tell me I am not allowed to use it. and they didn't. They at no point ever said (in fact JC said it's not a mechanical thing) a druid cannot wear metal armor.
That makes it a choice, not a rule. Now, you can 'rule' that whatever you want at your table. But saying 'won't' simply is not a rule, not matter how may times you parrot off the same line. A druid can explicitly wear medium armor, and no rule says they cannot. cannot is key there. JC has confirmed that they can indeed wear metal armor and that it does not break the system math. Anything is else roleplay fluff and NOT a rule. It's a guideline.
It's all irrelevant anyways since they are taking medium armor away from druids in 2024 anyways, which is, imo, the correct choice so we don't have to have tired discussions about a non-item.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
That's a choice. My druid absolutely will wear metal armor as long as it's on the proficiency list. JC has even said that it's a flavor choice and not a balance choice.
Saying a character /chooses/ to not do something is beyond WotC's purvue. That's an RP decision. If they don't want me wearing metal armor, remove it from my proficiency list. Until then, I can, and will wear it because them saying my character will choose to not do so, is incorrect.
Once again, the choice is made by the player when they choose to play as a druid.
If you want another example of an "RP decision" being forced onto players, each Sacred Oath a paladin might take has specific tenants. Is that acceptable to you, or is that yet another example of writer overreach?
This is a dumb argument. "Will not" does not imply prohibition. It implies personal choice, and given the way it is framed, it is most definetly a flavor option that can be ignored, as there is no explicit prohibition from metal armor, and it does not say that Druids do not have profiency in metal armor, just that they won't wear it, meaning that they are choosing not to wear it instead of the rules explicitly prohibiting you from wearing them. If what you say is RAI, then they should have made druids not proficient in metal armor RAW. But they absolutely are proficent in metal armor, but they just choose to not wear it, which once again comes down to Player choice, and Roleplay. It isn't a rule that druids have to wear metal armor, and anyone claiming otherwise is just outright wrong and misinterpreting the language of that single statement and the corresponding SAC.
Also, "the choice is made by the player when they choose to play as a druid.", literally all examples of situations like this have almost been completely stripped from 5e already, Tasha's made where Race's no longer have fixed stat increases, so if that is now the design philosophy, then it stands to reason that the same logic can be applied to this single phrase. That it is stating what most druids do, not that you the player are restricted from metal armor. I
The book doesn't state what "most" Druids do. It states what all Druids will not do. If you are a Druid you will not wear metal armour or shields. Will not does not imply a choice. Will not, in this instance, implies a requirement.
In order to be a Druid you will not wear metal armour or shields. Phrased another way, if you wear metal armour or shields then you are not a Druid.
I disagree. you don't get to 'imply' rules. That's not a thing. How about I call myself a 'shaman' instead, would that make you happy?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
. WotC can tell me what i CAN or CANNOT do. I choose what I WILL or WILLNOT do.
Then I guess you're not a Druid. 🤷🏼
You know, because Druids will not wear metal armour.
Point is, you're free to do what you want but don't come in here and try to tell people they're wrong because you disagree with what's written in the book.
Just because they will not, does not mean that they can't. There is no rule prohibiting a druid from wearing metal armor, and if they intended what you are implying then they shouldn't have given Druids proficiency in metal armor. Druids typicially won't wear metal armor due to taboo, which means it is an RP reason to not wear metal armor, not a RAW reason. There is nothing RAW that prevents you from wearing metal armor. The "will not" implies that druids have a choice to wear armor and most simply choose not to, not that they can't or that they are prohibited from doing so mechanically.
You, like so many others, are missing the point. And we─I─have covered this already.
Medium armor is medium armor. Druids can wear medium armor, but that medium armor will not be made of metal. They have their reasons, and that's fine. If you want to play a druid, abide by this. But this does not mean a druid cannot acquire armor made from exotic materials. In Storm King's Thunder, there are stone breastplates (worth 250 gp) that druids could wear. In DDEX3-11 The Quest for Sporedom, there's a suit of Half Plate of Poison Resistance made from petrified mushrooms. Heck, Hoard of the Dragon Queen has a suit of White Dragon Scale Mail on an NPC the party could potentially fight, kill, and loot.
And while we don't know how hot Heat Metal can get, it's not hot enough to melt iron or forge steel. The iron needs to be heated to 1,700 degrees Celcius (3,000 degrees Fahrenheit). Lava, which does anywhere from 10d10 to 18d10 fire damage in the DMG, depending on whether you're wading or fully submerged, only gets to about 1,250 degrees Celcius. And Heat Metal just can't get anywhere near that high. The best it can manage is 9d8 fire damage, and that's with a 9th-level spell slot when you could be warping reality, instead.
And all that is from page three.
What you, and so many others, want is to throw out class identity in favor of a slightly higher number on a sheet of paper.
Get over it.
By the way, I read this entire thread before I posted. None of your-or anyone else's arguments for your position on this matter have been convincing . Mainly because RAW, you are just outright wrong.
I don't see how anything you said regarding medium armor had anything to do with or even refuted what I said. Sure there are druid specific medium armors, but that means nothing about them being unable to use metal armor from a RAW perspective.
>throw out a whole class' identity
I don't care, in fact this isn't even relevant to the conversation. If they didn't want players using Metal Armor, then they shouldn't have given Druids proficiency in it. It is not my fault that Wizards didn't codify it properly. I am going to do what I want, since I am not restricted by anything mechanically, nor by anything RAW.
The facts are clear as day. Druids are NOT restricted from using Metal Armor RAW. You may have issues with it changing the class's identity, but that doesn't make it any less allowed from a RAW perspective, which is what this whole thread is about. If you take your feelings about the class out of it, you'll find that there really isn't anything supporting the idea that druids being unable to don metal armor is RAW. And this whole "identity" argument gets thrown out the window, when we consider all of the things done in Tasha's and OneD&D to basically remove all individual flavor/identity from races and other aspects of the game. WotC is obviously moving towards player choice, and away from designs that restrict the player in ways that are explicitly about flavor over mechanics.
That's a choice. My druid absolutely will wear metal armor as long as it's on the proficiency list. JC has even said that it's a flavor choice and not a balance choice.
Saying a character /chooses/ to not do something is beyond WotC's purvue. That's an RP decision. If they don't want me wearing metal armor, remove it from my proficiency list. Until then, I can, and will wear it because them saying my character will choose to not do so, is incorrect.
Once again, the choice is made by the player when they choose to play as a druid.
If you want another example of an "RP decision" being forced onto players, each Sacred Oath a paladin might take has specific tenants. Is that acceptable to you, or is that yet another example of writer overreach?
This is a dumb argument. "Will not" does not imply prohibition. It implies personal choice, and given the way it is framed, it is most definetly a flavor option that can be ignored, as there is no explicit prohibition from metal armor, and it does not say that Druids do not have profiency in metal armor, just that they won't wear it, meaning that they are choosing not to wear it instead of the rules explicitly prohibiting you from wearing them. If what you say is RAI, then they should have made druids not proficient in metal armor RAW. But they absolutely are proficent in metal armor, but they just choose to not wear it, which once again comes down to Player choice, and Roleplay. It isn't a rule that druids have to wear metal armor, and anyone claiming otherwise is just outright wrong and misinterpreting the language of that single statement and the corresponding SAC.
Also, "the choice is made by the player when they choose to play as a druid.", literally all examples of situations like this have almost been completely stripped from 5e already, Tasha's made where Race's no longer have fixed stat increases, so if that is now the design philosophy, then it stands to reason that the same logic can be applied to this single phrase. That it is stating what most druids do, not that you the player are restricted from metal armor. I
The book doesn't state what "most" Druids do. It states what all Druids will not do. If you are a Druid you will not wear metal armour or shields. Will not does not imply a choice. Will not, in this instance, implies a requirement.
In order to be a Druid you will not wear metal armour or shields. Phrased another way, if you wear metal armour or shields then you are not a Druid.
Sorry buddy, but "Will not" is not outright denial like "Cannot". They aren't the same, "will not", implies that you are choosing to not do something. "Cannot" implies you are being told you can't do something. In this case, "will not" implies a level of control that is offered to the player, which means RAW, it is not barred. Will not implies a choice or even a temporary inability, cannot is explicit prohibition.
That's a choice. My druid absolutely will wear metal armor as long as it's on the proficiency list. JC has even said that it's a flavor choice and not a balance choice.
Saying a character /chooses/ to not do something is beyond WotC's purvue. That's an RP decision. If they don't want me wearing metal armor, remove it from my proficiency list. Until then, I can, and will wear it because them saying my character will choose to not do so, is incorrect.
Once again, the choice is made by the player when they choose to play as a druid.
If you want another example of an "RP decision" being forced onto players, each Sacred Oath a paladin might take has specific tenants. Is that acceptable to you, or is that yet another example of writer overreach?
This is a dumb argument. "Will not" does not imply prohibition. It implies personal choice, and given the way it is framed, it is most definetly a flavor option that can be ignored, as there is no explicit prohibition from metal armor, and it does not say that Druids do not have profiency in metal armor, just that they won't wear it, meaning that they are choosing not to wear it instead of the rules explicitly prohibiting you from wearing them. If what you say is RAI, then they should have made druids not proficient in metal armor RAW. But they absolutely are proficent in metal armor, but they just choose to not wear it, which once again comes down to Player choice, and Roleplay. It isn't a rule that druids have to wear metal armor, and anyone claiming otherwise is just outright wrong and misinterpreting the language of that single statement and the corresponding SAC.
Also, "the choice is made by the player when they choose to play as a druid.", literally all examples of situations like this have almost been completely stripped from 5e already, Tasha's made where Race's no longer have fixed stat increases, so if that is now the design philosophy, then it stands to reason that the same logic can be applied to this single phrase. That it is stating what most druids do, not that you the player are restricted from metal armor. I
The book doesn't state what "most" Druids do. It states what all Druids will not do. If you are a Druid you will not wear metal armour or shields. Will not does not imply a choice. Will not, in this instance, implies a requirement.
In order to be a Druid you will not wear metal armour or shields. Phrased another way, if you wear metal armour or shields then you are not a Druid.
Sorry buddy, but "Will not" is not outright denial like "Cannot". They aren't the same, "will not", implies that you are choosing to not do something. "Cannot" implies you are being told you can't do something. In this case, "will not" implies a level of control that is offered to the player, which means RAW, it is not barred. Will not implies a choice or even a temporary inability, cannot is explicit prohibition.
"Will not" is not used because they can't. Can't implies a physical limitation that results in them being unable to wear the armour.
"Will not" is used because to be a Druid you follow specific tenets. Not wearing metal armour or shields is one of those tenets. Your character, in becoming a Druid, has agreed to follow that tenet and, as a result, is permitted to join the ranks of those called Druids.
That's a choice. My druid absolutely will wear metal armor as long as it's on the proficiency list. JC has even said that it's a flavor choice and not a balance choice.
Saying a character /chooses/ to not do something is beyond WotC's purvue. That's an RP decision. If they don't want me wearing metal armor, remove it from my proficiency list. Until then, I can, and will wear it because them saying my character will choose to not do so, is incorrect.
Once again, the choice is made by the player when they choose to play as a druid.
If you want another example of an "RP decision" being forced onto players, each Sacred Oath a paladin might take has specific tenants. Is that acceptable to you, or is that yet another example of writer overreach?
This is a dumb argument. "Will not" does not imply prohibition. It implies personal choice, and given the way it is framed, it is most definetly a flavor option that can be ignored, as there is no explicit prohibition from metal armor, and it does not say that Druids do not have profiency in metal armor, just that they won't wear it, meaning that they are choosing not to wear it instead of the rules explicitly prohibiting you from wearing them. If what you say is RAI, then they should have made druids not proficient in metal armor RAW. But they absolutely are proficent in metal armor, but they just choose to not wear it, which once again comes down to Player choice, and Roleplay. It isn't a rule that druids have to wear metal armor, and anyone claiming otherwise is just outright wrong and misinterpreting the language of that single statement and the corresponding SAC.
Also, "the choice is made by the player when they choose to play as a druid.", literally all examples of situations like this have almost been completely stripped from 5e already, Tasha's made where Race's no longer have fixed stat increases, so if that is now the design philosophy, then it stands to reason that the same logic can be applied to this single phrase. That it is stating what most druids do, not that you the player are restricted from metal armor. I
The book doesn't state what "most" Druids do. It states what all Druids will not do. If you are a Druid you will not wear metal armour or shields. Will not does not imply a choice. Will not, in this instance, implies a requirement.
In order to be a Druid you will not wear metal armour or shields. Phrased another way, if you wear metal armour or shields then you are not a Druid.
Sorry buddy, but "Will not" is not outright denial like "Cannot". They aren't the same, "will not", implies that you are choosing to not do something. "Cannot" implies you are being told you can't do something. In this case, "will not" implies a level of control that is offered to the player, which means RAW, it is not barred. Will not implies a choice or even a temporary inability, cannot is explicit prohibition.
"Will not" is not used because they can't. Can't implies a physical limitation that results in them being unable to wear the armour.
"Will not" is used because to be a Druid you follow specific tenets. Not wearing metal armour or shields is one of those tenets. Your character, in becoming a Druid, has agreed to follow that tenet and, as a result, is permitted to join the ranks of those called Druids.
Enjoy your house rule.
No. Can't in this case means that they aren't allowed by RULE, to wear Metal armor. But they didn't do that. It isn't a house rule. It is RAW. You are just wrong about the meaning of "Will not" in this context. They can wear metal armor, but just choose not to. Therefore I can make a druid that in fact chooses to wear metal armor. And SAC supports this exact thing as well. If they really weren't allowed to wear metal armor, then it should have said that "Druids are not proficient in metal armor" but instead they left it up to the player.
The fact that they can wear metal armor but choose not to means it becomes up to the player, and therefore an RP issue. RAW druids can wear metal armor.
I couldn't care less if WOTC mechanically decides that medium metal armor is overpowered and removed. Good on them. I 100% have issue with the idea that they get to determine what choices my character makes. Additionally, the concept goes counter of their stated goal of mentally re-skinning things. The fact is, a RULE would say that they CAN'T do it. They can, and explicitly. They try to pass off some fluff as "they just refuse" and that sits wrong. It's NOT a rule. It's a suggestion. When they come out and just give druids light armor only, I will happily abide by that restriction because my complaint is not about the numbers. It's about the idea that they can use awkward phrasing in an attempt to force some RP flavor down my mouth. No.
Would you prefer a hose or a fire extinguisher for your pants?
The only person making the decision for your character is you. Druids choose not to wear metal armor, and you're choosing whether to play a druid. If you want some medium armor besides hide, talk with your DM to reskin something. You cannot simply pretend that reskinning is an expressed goal and then not reskin to suit your purposes.
Make your scale mail out of something else than metal scales. Pay a special price and/or go on a quest to get the special material. Work with your DM to come up with a neat story. This isn't difficult. And, no, you don't need this to be spelled out for you in the text. They, the writing team, are trusting you're all smart enough to figure this out on your own. They're selling you a book, but the game is yours. Anything less would mean insulting the intelligence of the reader, and nobody here should be aiming to do that.
You can 'cover' it all you want. Oh, what else gets to shapeshift? What gets access to the druid's primal spells? If I want those things, I have to choose the druid chassis. If they didn't want me wearing metal armor, they had the option to not give me proficiency in it. They didn't go that route. Don't give me something then tell me I am not allowed to use it. and they didn't. They at no point ever said (in fact JC said it's not a mechanical thing) a druid cannot wear metal armor.
That makes it a choice, not a rule. Now, you can 'rule' that whatever you want at your table. But saying 'won't' simply is not a rule, not matter how may times you parrot off the same line. A druid can explicitly wear medium armor, and no rule says they cannot. cannot is key there. JC has confirmed that they can indeed wear metal armor and that it does not break the system math. Anything is else roleplay fluff and NOT a rule. It's a guideline.
It's all irrelevant anyways since they are taking medium armor away from druids in 2024 anyways, which is, imo, the correct choice so we don't have to have tired discussions about a non-item.
Yes, it is a choice─one the player makes.
Stop arguing from a position of bad faith. No one is arguing for class features that don't belong to their class. Nobody does that.
It's not that druids are proficient with metal armor. They're proficient with grades of armor where metal can be used in the construction, but they won't wear anything made with metal. That doesn't mean other materials cannot be used. Yes, the descriptions in the PH make mention of metal, but that isn't the only book out there, is it? It isn't even the only core book. I know nobody actually reads the DMG, but more people should. There's a whole table for making magic items from exotic materials like dragon scales, stone, and seashells and worked coral.
Saying druids choose not to wear armor and shields made of metal doesn't mean they aren't intended to wear several types of armor. That proficiency exists, so they can wear those armor types when made from other materials.
I actually feel sorry for the design team. They trusted you to realize you simply can't buy it from a store. That doesn't mean what you're looking for doesn't exist.
That's a choice. My druid absolutely will wear metal armor as long as it's on the proficiency list. JC has even said that it's a flavor choice and not a balance choice.
Saying a character /chooses/ to not do something is beyond WotC's purvue. That's an RP decision. If they don't want me wearing metal armor, remove it from my proficiency list. Until then, I can, and will wear it because them saying my character will choose to not do so, is incorrect.
Once again, the choice is made by the player when they choose to play as a druid.
If you want another example of an "RP decision" being forced onto players, each Sacred Oath a paladin might take has specific tenants. Is that acceptable to you, or is that yet another example of writer overreach?
This is a dumb argument. "Will not" does not imply prohibition. It implies personal choice, and given the way it is framed, it is most definetly a flavor option that can be ignored, as there is no explicit prohibition from metal armor, and it does not say that Druids do not have profiency in metal armor, just that they won't wear it, meaning that they are choosing not to wear it instead of the rules explicitly prohibiting you from wearing them. If what you say is RAI, then they should have made druids not proficient in metal armor RAW. But they absolutely are proficent in metal armor, but they just choose to not wear it, which once again comes down to Player choice, and Roleplay. It isn't a rule that druids have to wear metal armor, and anyone claiming otherwise is just outright wrong and misinterpreting the language of that single statement and the corresponding SAC.
Also, "the choice is made by the player when they choose to play as a druid.", literally all examples of situations like this have almost been completely stripped from 5e already, Tasha's made where Race's no longer have fixed stat increases, so if that is now the design philosophy, then it stands to reason that the same logic can be applied to this single phrase. That it is stating what most druids do, not that you the player are restricted from metal armor. I
You have it backwards.
It's not that druids have proficiency in metal armor. Rather, they have proficiency with armor where metal can, but doesn't have to, be used in the construction. The PH simply lays out that they can't buy non-metal versions of this armor from any old vendor. It does not say the druid cannot get a version of an armor where metal isn't used in its construction. And, in fact, the DMG has a table for creating magic items from exotic materials.
The DM isn't limited by that table, either. They can come up with their own stuff, or use something from earlier editions like alchemical stone or glassteel. If you're looking for elvish "metal" that weighs half the normal amount, this easily fits the bill.
FYI, the writers were trusting the reader to be smart enough to put this all together on their own. A reader who needs someone else to connect the dots for them is a poor one.
That's a choice. My druid absolutely will wear metal armor as long as it's on the proficiency list. JC has even said that it's a flavor choice and not a balance choice.
Saying a character /chooses/ to not do something is beyond WotC's purvue. That's an RP decision. If they don't want me wearing metal armor, remove it from my proficiency list. Until then, I can, and will wear it because them saying my character will choose to not do so, is incorrect.
Once again, the choice is made by the player when they choose to play as a druid.
If you want another example of an "RP decision" being forced onto players, each Sacred Oath a paladin might take has specific tenants. Is that acceptable to you, or is that yet another example of writer overreach?
This is a dumb argument. "Will not" does not imply prohibition. It implies personal choice, and given the way it is framed, it is most definetly a flavor option that can be ignored, as there is no explicit prohibition from metal armor, and it does not say that Druids do not have profiency in metal armor, just that they won't wear it, meaning that they are choosing not to wear it instead of the rules explicitly prohibiting you from wearing them. If what you say is RAI, then they should have made druids not proficient in metal armor RAW. But they absolutely are proficent in metal armor, but they just choose to not wear it, which once again comes down to Player choice, and Roleplay. It isn't a rule that druids have to wear metal armor, and anyone claiming otherwise is just outright wrong and misinterpreting the language of that single statement and the corresponding SAC.
Also, "the choice is made by the player when they choose to play as a druid.", literally all examples of situations like this have almost been completely stripped from 5e already, Tasha's made where Race's no longer have fixed stat increases, so if that is now the design philosophy, then it stands to reason that the same logic can be applied to this single phrase. That it is stating what most druids do, not that you the player are restricted from metal armor. I
You have it backwards.
It's not that druids have proficiency in metal armor. Rather, they have proficiency with armor where metal can, but doesn't have to, be used in the construction. The PH simply lays out that they can't buy non-metal versions of this armor from any old vendor. It does not say the druid cannot get a version of an armor where metal isn't used in its construction. And, in fact, the DMG has a table for creating magic items from exotic materials.
The DM isn't limited by that table, either. They can come up with their own stuff, or use something from earlier editions like alchemical stone or glassteel. If you're looking for elvish "metal" that weighs half the normal amount, this easily fits the bill.
FYI, the writers were trusting the reader to be smart enough to put this all together on their own. A reader who needs someone else to connect the dots for them is a poor one.
They have Proficiency in all Light and Medium armor, including Metal armors. As I have already covered, the statement in the proficiency list for druids is not explicit prohibition.
That's a choice. My druid absolutely will wear metal armor as long as it's on the proficiency list. JC has even said that it's a flavor choice and not a balance choice.
Saying a character /chooses/ to not do something is beyond WotC's purvue. That's an RP decision. If they don't want me wearing metal armor, remove it from my proficiency list. Until then, I can, and will wear it because them saying my character will choose to not do so, is incorrect.
Once again, the choice is made by the player when they choose to play as a druid.
If you want another example of an "RP decision" being forced onto players, each Sacred Oath a paladin might take has specific tenants. Is that acceptable to you, or is that yet another example of writer overreach?
This is a dumb argument. "Will not" does not imply prohibition. It implies personal choice, and given the way it is framed, it is most definetly a flavor option that can be ignored, as there is no explicit prohibition from metal armor, and it does not say that Druids do not have profiency in metal armor, just that they won't wear it, meaning that they are choosing not to wear it instead of the rules explicitly prohibiting you from wearing them. If what you say is RAI, then they should have made druids not proficient in metal armor RAW. But they absolutely are proficent in metal armor, but they just choose to not wear it, which once again comes down to Player choice, and Roleplay. It isn't a rule that druids have to wear metal armor, and anyone claiming otherwise is just outright wrong and misinterpreting the language of that single statement and the corresponding SAC.
Also, "the choice is made by the player when they choose to play as a druid.", literally all examples of situations like this have almost been completely stripped from 5e already, Tasha's made where Race's no longer have fixed stat increases, so if that is now the design philosophy, then it stands to reason that the same logic can be applied to this single phrase. That it is stating what most druids do, not that you the player are restricted from metal armor. I
You have it backwards.
It's not that druids have proficiency in metal armor. Rather, they have proficiency with armor where metal can, but doesn't have to, be used in the construction. The PH simply lays out that they can't buy non-metal versions of this armor from any old vendor. It does not say the druid cannot get a version of an armor where metal isn't used in its construction. And, in fact, the DMG has a table for creating magic items from exotic materials.
The DM isn't limited by that table, either. They can come up with their own stuff, or use something from earlier editions like alchemical stone or glassteel. If you're looking for elvish "metal" that weighs half the normal amount, this easily fits the bill.
FYI, the writers were trusting the reader to be smart enough to put this all together on their own. A reader who needs someone else to connect the dots for them is a poor one.
They have Proficiency in all Light and Medium armor, including Metal armors. As I have already covered, the statement in the proficiency list for druids is not explicit prohibition.
*Including armors where metal can, but doesn't have to be, incorporated.
They have Proficiency in all Light and Medium armor, including Metal armors. As I have already covered, the statement in the proficiency list for druids is not explicit prohibition.
Sure, but they won't wear them. :D
Here ya go, bud. Straight from the Sage Advice Compendium. I highlighted all the relevant bits. The stuff that supports your "it's a choice" argument but also proves us right. RAW a Druid will not wear metal armour. A Druid, by nature of being a Druid, chooses not to. A choice that is forcibly made for Druids by the rules. You may not agree with the rules making a choice for you, but they do.
If you feel strongly about it, talk to your DM. They have final say over what goes on at their table, not the book(s).
Studded leather armor does not have to be studded with metal. It could just as easily be studded with rocks or bone for all I care. Also, I have yet to sit at a table where there isn’t at least one player bucking trends with their PC. If they want to have their druid don metal armor, why not? They have proficiency with weapons made of metal.
The bottom line here is the armor restrictions are written into the rules of 5E, but your DM can alter the rules for his game. If I was DMing, I might have a quest available for Dragonscale Mail armor,...like when you can kill a dragon (or get castoff scales for a service to a friendly dragon), you can pay to have it made. Or maybe have one suit of it available in a magic or armor shop for when you can get together enough gold. Or maybe I'd homebrew that scale armor can be made from a certain giant lizard but it's not magical armor.
The bottom line here is the armor restrictions are written into the rules of 5E, but your DM can alter the rules for his game. If I was DMing, I might have a quest available for Dragonscale Mail armor,...like when you can kill a dragon (or get castoff scales for a service to a friendly dragon), you can pay to have it made. Or maybe have one suit of it available in a magic or armor shop for when you can get together enough gold. Or maybe I'd homebrew that scale armor can be made from a certain giant lizard but it's not magical armor.
It is not written into the rules though. If it were, it would say 'cannot' use armor or shields made of metal. 'Will not' and 'cannot' are very different things. It does not suggest that you cannot play a druid if you want metal armor or that if you do choose to be a druid, that metal armor becomes unavailable to you. It establishes a philosophical standard by which druids follow. Since these are adventurers and therefore individuals which by definition are unique in their life choices, they can be exception to the established norm. There is no game mechanic that would penalize a druid for wearing a chain shirt. Because of this very important detail, it is entirely permissible for a druid to say 'I think that idea is stupid and therefore will wear metal armor'. It does make sense that other druids might view it as taboo though. As a DM, I might lean into that a bit, but I would not restrict my player choices based on my own biases.
They have Proficiency in all Light and Medium armor, including Metal armors. As I have already covered, the statement in the proficiency list for druids is not explicit prohibition.
Sure, but they won't wear them. :D
Here ya go, bud. Straight from the Sage Advice Compendium. I highlighted all the relevant bits. The stuff that supports your "it's a choice" argument but also proves us right. RAW a Druid will not wear metal armour. A Druid, by nature of being a Druid, chooses not to. A choice that is forcibly made for Druids by the rules. You may not agree with the rules making a choice for you, but they do.
If you feel strongly about it, talk to your DM. They have final say over what goes on at their table, not the book(s).
The only thing you have done is proven my point. RAW, they can wear metal armor but in game they just choose not to. It isn't a rule, it is flavor. SAC makes this explicitly clear. It does not say that Druids don't have proficiency in metal armor, nor does it clarify the statement there as explicit prohibition.
This SAC answer means nothing for this conversation, and people need to read the thread before bringing this up again.
Just because they will not, does not mean that they can't. There is no rule prohibiting a druid from wearing metal armor, and if they intended what you are implying then they shouldn't have given Druids proficiency in metal armor. Druids typicially won't wear metal armor due to taboo, which means it is an RP reason to not wear metal armor, not a RAW reason. There is nothing RAW that prevents you from wearing metal armor. The "will not" implies that druids have a choice to wear metal armor and most simply choose not to, not that they can't or that they are prohibited from doing so mechanically.
^^^^^ this!
I couldn't care less if WOTC mechanically decides that medium metal armor is overpowered and removed. Good on them. I 100% have issue with the idea that they get to determine what choices my character makes. Additionally, the concept goes counter of their stated goal of mentally re-skinning things. The fact is, a RULE would say that they CAN'T do it. They can, and explicitly. They try to pass off some fluff as "they just refuse" and that sits wrong. It's NOT a rule. It's a suggestion. When they come out and just give druids light armor only, I will happily abide by that restriction because my complaint is not about the numbers. It's about the idea that they can use awkward phrasing in an attempt to force some RP flavor down my mouth. No.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
You, like so many others, are missing the point. And we─I─have covered this already.
And all that is from page three.
What you, and so many others, want is to throw out class identity in favor of a slightly higher number on a sheet of paper.
Get over it.
Would you prefer a hose or a fire extinguisher for your pants?
The only person making the decision for your character is you. Druids choose not to wear metal armor, and you're choosing whether to play a druid. If you want some medium armor besides hide, talk with your DM to reskin something. You cannot simply pretend that reskinning is an expressed goal and then not reskin to suit your purposes.
Make your scale mail out of something else than metal scales. Pay a special price and/or go on a quest to get the special material. Work with your DM to come up with a neat story. This isn't difficult. And, no, you don't need this to be spelled out for you in the text. They, the writing team, are trusting you're all smart enough to figure this out on your own. They're selling you a book, but the game is yours. Anything less would mean insulting the intelligence of the reader, and nobody here should be aiming to do that.
The book doesn't state what "most" Druids do. It states what all Druids will not do. If you are a Druid you will not wear metal armour or shields. Will not does not imply a choice. Will not, in this instance, implies a requirement.
In order to be a Druid you will not wear metal armour or shields. Phrased another way, if you wear metal armour or shields then you are not a Druid.
You can 'cover' it all you want. Oh, what else gets to shapeshift? What gets access to the druid's primal spells? If I want those things, I have to choose the druid chassis. If they didn't want me wearing metal armor, they had the option to not give me proficiency in it. They didn't go that route. Don't give me something then tell me I am not allowed to use it. and they didn't. They at no point ever said (in fact JC said it's not a mechanical thing) a druid cannot wear metal armor.
That makes it a choice, not a rule. Now, you can 'rule' that whatever you want at your table. But saying 'won't' simply is not a rule, not matter how may times you parrot off the same line. A druid can explicitly wear medium armor, and no rule says they cannot. cannot is key there. JC has confirmed that they can indeed wear metal armor and that it does not break the system math. Anything is else roleplay fluff and NOT a rule. It's a guideline.
It's all irrelevant anyways since they are taking medium armor away from druids in 2024 anyways, which is, imo, the correct choice so we don't have to have tired discussions about a non-item.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I disagree. you don't get to 'imply' rules. That's not a thing. How about I call myself a 'shaman' instead, would that make you happy?
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
By the way, I read this entire thread before I posted. None of your-or anyone else's arguments for your position on this matter have been convincing . Mainly because RAW, you are just outright wrong.
I don't see how anything you said regarding medium armor had anything to do with or even refuted what I said. Sure there are druid specific medium armors, but that means nothing about them being unable to use metal armor from a RAW perspective.
>throw out a whole class' identity
I don't care, in fact this isn't even relevant to the conversation. If they didn't want players using Metal Armor, then they shouldn't have given Druids proficiency in it. It is not my fault that Wizards didn't codify it properly. I am going to do what I want, since I am not restricted by anything mechanically, nor by anything RAW.
The facts are clear as day. Druids are NOT restricted from using Metal Armor RAW. You may have issues with it changing the class's identity, but that doesn't make it any less allowed from a RAW perspective, which is what this whole thread is about. If you take your feelings about the class out of it, you'll find that there really isn't anything supporting the idea that druids being unable to don metal armor is RAW. And this whole "identity" argument gets thrown out the window, when we consider all of the things done in Tasha's and OneD&D to basically remove all individual flavor/identity from races and other aspects of the game. WotC is obviously moving towards player choice, and away from designs that restrict the player in ways that are explicitly about flavor over mechanics.
Sorry buddy, but "Will not" is not outright denial like "Cannot". They aren't the same, "will not", implies that you are choosing to not do something. "Cannot" implies you are being told you can't do something. In this case, "will not" implies a level of control that is offered to the player, which means RAW, it is not barred. Will not implies a choice or even a temporary inability, cannot is explicit prohibition.
"Will not" is not used because they can't. Can't implies a physical limitation that results in them being unable to wear the armour.
"Will not" is used because to be a Druid you follow specific tenets. Not wearing metal armour or shields is one of those tenets. Your character, in becoming a Druid, has agreed to follow that tenet and, as a result, is permitted to join the ranks of those called Druids.
Enjoy your house rule.
No. Can't in this case means that they aren't allowed by RULE, to wear Metal armor. But they didn't do that. It isn't a house rule. It is RAW. You are just wrong about the meaning of "Will not" in this context. They can wear metal armor, but just choose not to. Therefore I can make a druid that in fact chooses to wear metal armor. And SAC supports this exact thing as well. If they really weren't allowed to wear metal armor, then it should have said that "Druids are not proficient in metal armor" but instead they left it up to the player.
The fact that they can wear metal armor but choose not to means it becomes up to the player, and therefore an RP issue. RAW druids can wear metal armor.
Yes, it is a choice─one the player makes.
Stop arguing from a position of bad faith. No one is arguing for class features that don't belong to their class. Nobody does that.
It's not that druids are proficient with metal armor. They're proficient with grades of armor where metal can be used in the construction, but they won't wear anything made with metal. That doesn't mean other materials cannot be used. Yes, the descriptions in the PH make mention of metal, but that isn't the only book out there, is it? It isn't even the only core book. I know nobody actually reads the DMG, but more people should. There's a whole table for making magic items from exotic materials like dragon scales, stone, and seashells and worked coral.
Saying druids choose not to wear armor and shields made of metal doesn't mean they aren't intended to wear several types of armor. That proficiency exists, so they can wear those armor types when made from other materials.
I actually feel sorry for the design team. They trusted you to realize you simply can't buy it from a store. That doesn't mean what you're looking for doesn't exist.
You have it backwards.
It's not that druids have proficiency in metal armor. Rather, they have proficiency with armor where metal can, but doesn't have to, be used in the construction. The PH simply lays out that they can't buy non-metal versions of this armor from any old vendor. It does not say the druid cannot get a version of an armor where metal isn't used in its construction. And, in fact, the DMG has a table for creating magic items from exotic materials.
The DM isn't limited by that table, either. They can come up with their own stuff, or use something from earlier editions like alchemical stone or glassteel. If you're looking for elvish "metal" that weighs half the normal amount, this easily fits the bill.
FYI, the writers were trusting the reader to be smart enough to put this all together on their own. A reader who needs someone else to connect the dots for them is a poor one.
They have Proficiency in all Light and Medium armor, including Metal armors. As I have already covered, the statement in the proficiency list for druids is not explicit prohibition.
*Including armors where metal can, but doesn't have to be, incorporated.
Sure, but they won't wear them. :D
Here ya go, bud. Straight from the Sage Advice Compendium.
I highlighted all the relevant bits. The stuff that supports your "it's a choice" argument but also proves us right. RAW a Druid will not wear metal armour. A Druid, by nature of being a Druid, chooses not to. A choice that is forcibly made for Druids by the rules. You may not agree with the rules making a choice for you, but they do.
If you feel strongly about it, talk to your DM. They have final say over what goes on at their table, not the book(s).
Studded leather armor does not have to be studded with metal. It could just as easily be studded with rocks or bone for all I care. Also, I have yet to sit at a table where there isn’t at least one player bucking trends with their PC. If they want to have their druid don metal armor, why not? They have proficiency with weapons made of metal.
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The bottom line here is the armor restrictions are written into the rules of 5E, but your DM can alter the rules for his game. If I was DMing, I might have a quest available for Dragonscale Mail armor,...like when you can kill a dragon (or get castoff scales for a service to a friendly dragon), you can pay to have it made. Or maybe have one suit of it available in a magic or armor shop for when you can get together enough gold. Or maybe I'd homebrew that scale armor can be made from a certain giant lizard but it's not magical armor.
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It is not written into the rules though. If it were, it would say 'cannot' use armor or shields made of metal. 'Will not' and 'cannot' are very different things. It does not suggest that you cannot play a druid if you want metal armor or that if you do choose to be a druid, that metal armor becomes unavailable to you. It establishes a philosophical standard by which druids follow. Since these are adventurers and therefore individuals which by definition are unique in their life choices, they can be exception to the established norm. There is no game mechanic that would penalize a druid for wearing a chain shirt. Because of this very important detail, it is entirely permissible for a druid to say 'I think that idea is stupid and therefore will wear metal armor'. It does make sense that other druids might view it as taboo though. As a DM, I might lean into that a bit, but I would not restrict my player choices based on my own biases.
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The only thing you have done is proven my point. RAW, they can wear metal armor but in game they just choose not to. It isn't a rule, it is flavor. SAC makes this explicitly clear. It does not say that Druids don't have proficiency in metal armor, nor does it clarify the statement there as explicit prohibition.
This SAC answer means nothing for this conversation, and people need to read the thread before bringing this up again.