Was looking at the spell Contagion and it looked like a good spell, but as I read further I don't know if it would be worth preparing on my Druid. The poisoned condition, with no save, is nice. But the other effects take between 3-5 rounds before they might even come into play. So not much help in a combat situation if they are dead before they can fail/make the 3 saving throws required to shrug off the spell or fall victim to a disease.
Or are there better out-of-combat uses for this spell?
Granting disadvantage on saving throws is a powerful ability, but Monster Constitution saves are usually pretty high.
With a 7 day duration, the best use of this spell is probably before a big showdown. Stealth in, tag a baddie, and get out of there. If the contagion sticks, return to finish the job. If it doesn't, try a different approach.
Out of combat, the penalty to ability checks could wreck havok on social interactions, so you could conduct political sabotage, or make a merchant bad at negotiations, etc.
Whether or not it's worth it is probably dependent upon the type of campaign your DM is running and your party members. Murderhobos might not give you enough time to use it wisely.
As written, it's not a great use of a 5th level slot unless player is extra sneaky or gets buy-in from the DM. The touch range is crap, but maybe you could get away with it if you have an escape plan set up for yourself. IMO, it should have been castable on an object and whoever touched or ingested the object would have had to roll for infection. And have it actually be contagious (that would make sense, right?). That would have been far more useful. For instance, infecting a large # of enemy troops a day or two prior to a large scale battle.
Keep in mind also that a single casting of a frequently prepared 2nd level spell, L. Restoration, eliminates the effect of Contagion. So it's a niche spell in most campaigns.
Granting disadvantage on saving throws is a powerful ability, but Monster Constitution saves are usually pretty high.
The Poisoned condition causes disadvantage on attacks and ability checks, not saving throws.
Effects of Contagion, provided with emphasis, for your convenience.
Blinding Sickness. Pain grips the creature's mind, and its eyes turn milky white. The creature has disadvantage on Wisdom checks and Wisdom saving throws and is blinded.
Filth Fever. A raging fever sweeps through the creature's body. The creature has disadvantage on Strength checks, Strength saving throws, and attack rolls that use Strength.
Flesh Rot. The creature's flesh decays. The creature has disadvantage on Charisma checks and vulnerability to all damage.
Mindfire. The creature's mind becomes feverish. The creature has disadvantage on Intelligence checks and Intelligence saving throws, and the creature behaves as if under the effects of the confusion spell during combat.
Seizure. The creature is overcome with shaking. The creature has disadvantage on Dexterity checks, Dexterity saving throws, and attack rolls that use Dexterity.
Slimy Doom. The creature begins to bleed uncontrollably. The creature has disadvantage on Constitution checks and Constitution saving throws. In addition, whenever the creature takes damage, it is stunned until the end of its next turn.
Yes, each diseas gives disadvantage on a saving throw. The original post I quoted worded it as if the spell caused disadvantage on all saving throws. Very large difference.
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"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I can see where a misunderstanding may arise, but my phrasing is grammatically correct as a generalization. The statement about saving throws and monster constitution is a preamble the applies to any such effect, not just the Contagion spell.
That said, the thing that makes Contagion particularly useful is that it is not a concentration effect. Where Bestow Curse can also apply disadvantage to a saving throw, holding concentration prevents the same caster from using potent spells like Hold Person.
The touch range is crap, but maybe you could get away with it if you have an escape plan set up for yourself.
You could use Find Familiar to cast it remotely (you can cast any touch spell through the familiar, which makes them suddenly a lot more powerful).
Currently the only way to do that as a druid is to multi-class, take Magic Initiate (Wizard) or Ritual Caster, however the UA class variants give Druids the ability to spend a wildshape to cast Find Familiar, which hopefully will still be included in the upcoming Tasha's book. Not sure why they don't just get it on their spell list, but it's an option anyway.
The re-write of this spell definitely fixes the problem that it was unclear whether the disease started immediately or only after the third failed save. I think it would have been better if they made it so that the disease started immediately, because those disease effects are less likely to be ignored from immunity and could be more useful than the poisoned effect.
I think that poisoning a creature for 3 to 5 rounds could be effectively poisoning it for its entire lifetime (in 5e combat terms). This spell could be used to great effect to hinder a creature that has some consistent source of advantage, or gains some power from having advantage (or even a creature that hurts a lot when it does hit). The problem with this spell really is the prevalence of immunity to the poisoned condition. Not only does the initial effect not take hold for poison condition immune creatures, you also lose out on the disease effect.
I like the spell, but maybe that is personal bias. I think the poisoned condition is decent (especially for a no-concentration spell) of this level. You just have to be careful what creatures you use it on. In it’s current condition, you have to realize that you’re really using the spell for that poisoned condition mostly (at least, if you’re trying to use it as a combat spell), It can also make a decent out-of combat spell if you are interested in making a creature fail saves for another spell you might consider casting at them.
The touch range is crap, but maybe you could get away with it if you have an escape plan set up for yourself.
You could use Find Familiar to cast it remotely (you can cast any touch spell through the familiar, which makes them suddenly a lot more powerful).
Currently the only way to do that as a druid is to multi-class, take Magic Initiate (Wizard) or Ritual Caster, however the UA class variants give Druids the ability to spend a wildshape to cast Find Familiar, which hopefully will still be included in the upcoming Tasha's book. Not sure why they don't just get it on their spell list, but it's an option anyway.
Well, that could make a big difference in terms of the delivery method. Just hope the creature you are using it on doesn't have access to healing/restorative magic and 2nd level spells.
I'm still peeved that a spell called Contagion cannot, by RAW, infect other creatures besides the targeted one, though. Considering that most arcane casters can Animate Objects at this level, it seems to punch below its weight class.
Perhaps another thought. A Druid anxious to convince a community that something affecting the nearby forest is now becoming a town issue...suddenly people are becoming ill within the town and it 'must' be related to what is affecting the trees - need adventurers to help. To ease the druid's conscience, a healer just 'happens' to be in the area and heals the contagion once the trees are helped to keep it appearing related.
I think it's a mistake to look at this spell for its combat applications. But it's a fantastic world-building spell. It's the kind of thing that's probably best used for the Interaction/Social pillar of the game.
Perhaps another thought. A Druid anxious to convince a community that something affecting the nearby forest is now becoming a town issue...suddenly people are becoming ill within the town and it 'must' be related to what is affecting the trees - need adventurers to help. To ease the druid's conscience, a healer just 'happens' to be in the area and heals the contagion once the trees are helped to keep it appearing related.
What does this have to do with the actual Contagion spell, though? Aren't you thinking of Lesser Restoration?
Perhaps another thought. A Druid anxious to convince a community that something affecting the nearby forest is now becoming a town issue...suddenly people are becoming ill within the town and it 'must' be related to what is affecting the trees - need adventurers to help. To ease the druid's conscience, a healer just 'happens' to be in the area and heals the contagion once the trees are helped to keep it appearing related.
What does this have to do with the actual Contagion spell, though? Aren't you thinking of Lesser Restoration?
I mean, say a druid is having difficulty getting assistance with something going on outside of town and they won't pay attention. Then over the next few days people start having weird symptoms (contagion) which the druid could relate to the animal's illnesses etc...Lesser restoration could cure the symptoms. Provided you are a sort of sneaky druid. Maybe it wouldn't work.
Perhaps another thought. A Druid anxious to convince a community that something affecting the nearby forest is now becoming a town issue...suddenly people are becoming ill within the town and it 'must' be related to what is affecting the trees - need adventurers to help. To ease the druid's conscience, a healer just 'happens' to be in the area and heals the contagion once the trees are helped to keep it appearing related.
What does this have to do with the actual Contagion spell, though? Aren't you thinking of Lesser Restoration?
I mean, say a druid is having difficulty getting assistance with something going on outside of town and they won't pay attention. Then over the next few days people start having weird symptoms (contagion) which the druid could relate to the animal's illnesses etc...Lesser restoration could cure the symptoms. Provided you are a sort of sneaky druid. Maybe it wouldn't work.
So your druid has a problem and to fix it,
lies to the townsfolk
inflicts biological warfare upon them
Withholds the cure, offering it as a quid pro quo.
Is this druid evil? The course of events seems doable, just very indirect and morally suspect.
Perhaps another thought. A Druid anxious to convince a community that something affecting the nearby forest is now becoming a town issue...suddenly people are becoming ill within the town and it 'must' be related to what is affecting the trees - need adventurers to help. To ease the druid's conscience, a healer just 'happens' to be in the area and heals the contagion once the trees are helped to keep it appearing related.
What does this have to do with the actual Contagion spell, though? Aren't you thinking of Lesser Restoration?
I mean, say a druid is having difficulty getting assistance with something going on outside of town and they won't pay attention. Then over the next few days people start having weird symptoms (contagion) which the druid could relate to the animal's illnesses etc...Lesser restoration could cure the symptoms. Provided you are a sort of sneaky druid. Maybe it wouldn't work.
So your druid has a problem and to fix it,
lies to the townsfolk
inflicts biological warfare upon them
Withholds the cure, offering it as a quid pro quo.
Is this druid evil? The course of events seems doable, just very indirect and morally suspect.
Sort of - I don't think my character would personally do it, but my understanding is that contagion only lasts a minute except in certain cases. As above (farther up) I'd have a cleric friend assist with lesser restoration (as I don't think a Druid can cast it) to cure the effects shortly after casting - so its more of an "Oh no is it spreading to the town so we'd better pay attention" effect. And I wouldn't see a druid doing it unless there's something really terrible going on in the wilderness that is affecting the forest to the point that if noone helps, it will be destroyed. It would take a lot for a Balance focused class to go to this extreme - just mentioning a possible use other than combat.
Perhaps another thought. A Druid anxious to convince a community that something affecting the nearby forest is now becoming a town issue...suddenly people are becoming ill within the town and it 'must' be related to what is affecting the trees - need adventurers to help. To ease the druid's conscience, a healer just 'happens' to be in the area and heals the contagion once the trees are helped to keep it appearing related.
What does this have to do with the actual Contagion spell, though? Aren't you thinking of Lesser Restoration?
I mean, say a druid is having difficulty getting assistance with something going on outside of town and they won't pay attention. Then over the next few days people start having weird symptoms (contagion) which the druid could relate to the animal's illnesses etc...Lesser restoration could cure the symptoms. Provided you are a sort of sneaky druid. Maybe it wouldn't work.
You do realize that the Contagion spell does not actually create a contagious illness, right? It's a 5th level touch spell with a long onset time and only affects 1 creature per RAW.
Perhaps another thought. A Druid anxious to convince a community that something affecting the nearby forest is now becoming a town issue...suddenly people are becoming ill within the town and it 'must' be related to what is affecting the trees - need adventurers to help. To ease the druid's conscience, a healer just 'happens' to be in the area and heals the contagion once the trees are helped to keep it appearing related.
What does this have to do with the actual Contagion spell, though? Aren't you thinking of Lesser Restoration?
I mean, say a druid is having difficulty getting assistance with something going on outside of town and they won't pay attention. Then over the next few days people start having weird symptoms (contagion) which the druid could relate to the animal's illnesses etc...Lesser restoration could cure the symptoms. Provided you are a sort of sneaky druid. Maybe it wouldn't work.
You do realize that the Contagion spell does not actually create a contagious illness, right? It's a 5th level touch spell with a long onset time and only affects 1 creature per RAW.
I do although I'm surprised it doesn't. Does the description actually say that somewhere? The spell didn't seem to say that it just caused the 'effects and symptoms' of the disease and not the disease - or maybe it did and I missed. I was only thinking that a common person seeing a blight in the forest that caused illness in animals and other wildlife but wasn't affecting the town isn't as much of a concern but if they saw someone near them that seemed to be developing the same symptoms might cause some alarm that it would spread to the town and actually a desire to do something. I would cure this shortly after the symptoms were observed so the individual didn't have any long term effects of the disease. Again only as an extreme to get help and much more ideal to have this created with an illusion. It was just an idea.
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Was looking at the spell Contagion and it looked like a good spell, but as I read further I don't know if it would be worth preparing on my Druid. The poisoned condition, with no save, is nice. But the other effects take between 3-5 rounds before they might even come into play. So not much help in a combat situation if they are dead before they can fail/make the 3 saving throws required to shrug off the spell or fall victim to a disease.
Or are there better out-of-combat uses for this spell?
Granting disadvantage on saving throws is a powerful ability, but Monster Constitution saves are usually pretty high.
With a 7 day duration, the best use of this spell is probably before a big showdown. Stealth in, tag a baddie, and get out of there. If the contagion sticks, return to finish the job. If it doesn't, try a different approach.
Out of combat, the penalty to ability checks could wreck havok on social interactions, so you could conduct political sabotage, or make a merchant bad at negotiations, etc.
Whether or not it's worth it is probably dependent upon the type of campaign your DM is running and your party members. Murderhobos might not give you enough time to use it wisely.
As written, it's not a great use of a 5th level slot unless player is extra sneaky or gets buy-in from the DM. The touch range is crap, but maybe you could get away with it if you have an escape plan set up for yourself. IMO, it should have been castable on an object and whoever touched or ingested the object would have had to roll for infection. And have it actually be contagious (that would make sense, right?). That would have been far more useful. For instance, infecting a large # of enemy troops a day or two prior to a large scale battle.
Keep in mind also that a single casting of a frequently prepared 2nd level spell, L. Restoration, eliminates the effect of Contagion. So it's a niche spell in most campaigns.
It's one of those spells that's in the game more for enemies to cast on PCs than for PCs to use on enemies.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
The Poisoned condition causes disadvantage on attacks and ability checks, not saving throws.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Effects of Contagion, provided with emphasis, for your convenience.
Yes, each diseas gives disadvantage on a saving throw. The original post I quoted worded it as if the spell caused disadvantage on all saving throws. Very large difference.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I can see where a misunderstanding may arise, but my phrasing is grammatically correct as a generalization. The statement about saving throws and monster constitution is a preamble the applies to any such effect, not just the Contagion spell.
That said, the thing that makes Contagion particularly useful is that it is not a concentration effect. Where Bestow Curse can also apply disadvantage to a saving throw, holding concentration prevents the same caster from using potent spells like Hold Person.
"Have your cake and eat it too."
You could use Find Familiar to cast it remotely (you can cast any touch spell through the familiar, which makes them suddenly a lot more powerful).
Currently the only way to do that as a druid is to multi-class, take Magic Initiate (Wizard) or Ritual Caster, however the UA class variants give Druids the ability to spend a wildshape to cast Find Familiar, which hopefully will still be included in the upcoming Tasha's book. Not sure why they don't just get it on their spell list, but it's an option anyway.
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The re-write of this spell definitely fixes the problem that it was unclear whether the disease started immediately or only after the third failed save. I think it would have been better if they made it so that the disease started immediately, because those disease effects are less likely to be ignored from immunity and could be more useful than the poisoned effect.
I think that poisoning a creature for 3 to 5 rounds could be effectively poisoning it for its entire lifetime (in 5e combat terms). This spell could be used to great effect to hinder a creature that has some consistent source of advantage, or gains some power from having advantage (or even a creature that hurts a lot when it does hit). The problem with this spell really is the prevalence of immunity to the poisoned condition. Not only does the initial effect not take hold for poison condition immune creatures, you also lose out on the disease effect.
I like the spell, but maybe that is personal bias. I think the poisoned condition is decent (especially for a no-concentration spell) of this level. You just have to be careful what creatures you use it on. In it’s current condition, you have to realize that you’re really using the spell for that poisoned condition mostly (at least, if you’re trying to use it as a combat spell), It can also make a decent out-of combat spell if you are interested in making a creature fail saves for another spell you might consider casting at them.
Well, that could make a big difference in terms of the delivery method. Just hope the creature you are using it on doesn't have access to healing/restorative magic and 2nd level spells.
I'm still peeved that a spell called Contagion cannot, by RAW, infect other creatures besides the targeted one, though. Considering that most arcane casters can Animate Objects at this level, it seems to punch below its weight class.
Perhaps another thought. A Druid anxious to convince a community that something affecting the nearby forest is now becoming a town issue...suddenly people are becoming ill within the town and it 'must' be related to what is affecting the trees - need adventurers to help. To ease the druid's conscience, a healer just 'happens' to be in the area and heals the contagion once the trees are helped to keep it appearing related.
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I think it's a mistake to look at this spell for its combat applications. But it's a fantastic world-building spell. It's the kind of thing that's probably best used for the Interaction/Social pillar of the game.
What does this have to do with the actual Contagion spell, though? Aren't you thinking of Lesser Restoration?
I mean, say a druid is having difficulty getting assistance with something going on outside of town and they won't pay attention. Then over the next few days people start having weird symptoms (contagion) which the druid could relate to the animal's illnesses etc...Lesser restoration could cure the symptoms. Provided you are a sort of sneaky druid. Maybe it wouldn't work.
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So your druid has a problem and to fix it,
Is this druid evil? The course of events seems doable, just very indirect and morally suspect.
Sort of - I don't think my character would personally do it, but my understanding is that contagion only lasts a minute except in certain cases. As above (farther up) I'd have a cleric friend assist with lesser restoration (as I don't think a Druid can cast it) to cure the effects shortly after casting - so its more of an "Oh no is it spreading to the town so we'd better pay attention" effect. And I wouldn't see a druid doing it unless there's something really terrible going on in the wilderness that is affecting the forest to the point that if noone helps, it will be destroyed. It would take a lot for a Balance focused class to go to this extreme - just mentioning a possible use other than combat.
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Druids have both lesser and greater restoration so they can inflict the illness and cure it themselves. At least the poisoned condition
You do realize that the Contagion spell does not actually create a contagious illness, right? It's a 5th level touch spell with a long onset time and only affects 1 creature per RAW.
I do although I'm surprised it doesn't. Does the description actually say that somewhere? The spell didn't seem to say that it just caused the 'effects and symptoms' of the disease and not the disease - or maybe it did and I missed. I was only thinking that a common person seeing a blight in the forest that caused illness in animals and other wildlife but wasn't affecting the town isn't as much of a concern but if they saw someone near them that seemed to be developing the same symptoms might cause some alarm that it would spread to the town and actually a desire to do something. I would cure this shortly after the symptoms were observed so the individual didn't have any long term effects of the disease. Again only as an extreme to get help and much more ideal to have this created with an illusion. It was just an idea.
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