There are non-communicable diseases, but the word contagion itself is for communicable ones. There's a weird sort of disconnect, and I don't think a DM is wrong wither either way of playing it. In the section on diseases in the DMG, it does say they can serve as plot devices.
There are non-communicable diseases, but the word contagion itself is for communicable ones. There's a weird sort of disconnect, and I don't think a DM is wrong wither either way of playing it. In the section on diseases in the DMG, it does say they can serve as plot devices.
I agree. They should just re-write the whole spell instead of peck at it with updates.
Here's what I would have done:
* Make it actually contagious. Any creature of the same ancestry/race as the diseased creature who spends 5 minutes or more within 10 feet of them must roll 1d10. On a 1 to 3, the disease is transmitted and character must roll CON saves as written in the PHB or else become similarly infected. On a 3 to 6, the creature becomes a carrier of the disease for 7 days, has no symptoms, but can communicate the disease to other creatures within 10 feet. On a 7 to 10, the creature is fine. If there is frequent contact between an infected creature and non-infected creatures, the non-infected creatures must re-roll for possible infection twice per day. Creatures who retain partial ancestry with the creature who is spreading the infection can roll twice and pick either number to determine whether they have been infected.
* If the diseased creature is around a large number of non-story crucial NPCs of the same or partial ancestry as the infected creature, assume the following:
- For every 10 creatures, 1 will become infected and have to deal with the effects of the disease immediately, 1 will become infected and deal with the effects 12 hours after being near the infected creature, and 2 creatures will become carriers of the disease without having any symptoms. Scale this up based on population density.
Since it hasn't been mentioned, the primary combat use for contagion is taking care of all three of a BBEG's legendary resistances using a single spell/action that doesn't even require concentration. Inflicting a solid debuff while the saves are being made is a nice bonus. It's true that in most combats there will be better spells to cast (since most combats will be over in about 3 rounds) but when going up against the big boss this is the most efficient way to make them vulnerable to the blasters on your team.
It's hardly efficient though, considering that it is A) a touch spell; B) Druids are crap at being in melee except for Moon Druids who can't even use the spell until level 18 while in Wildshape; and C) it takes three failed saving throws to actually impose any of the disease effects. If this had been a Warlock Pact of the Chain ability, I would say it could be worth it, but not as a Druid spell.
When I used the term efficiency I was talking about the action economy. This is one of only a very few situations where a player can use one action to get rid of three legendary resistances. As far as I know the only other way to have one action get rid of multiple resistances is if the BBEG decides to use legendary resistances to pass concentration checks against spells/effects like magic missile or eldritch blast that create multiple instances of damage. Normally, however, they won't do that since they will just make the concentration check against small damage batches or they won't care enough about the small amount of damage to waste a legendary resistance.
As to your other points, contagion isn't useful because it actually causes disease effects. If they manifest that's awesome and combat should end quickly but they will almost never manifest because the BBEG will normally use their legendary resistances to stop the effects. Contagion is useful (against BBEGs specifically) because the spell automatically delivers the poison debuff while saves are being made and because once the big bad has used their resistances dealing with this one spell they are exposed for blasting and/or save or suck spells from the rest of your party.
It's true that the druid does need to worry about getting away from the big bad after delivering the touch attack and that contagion is even better when it can be delivered through a familiar but there are plenty of ways for druids to get away relatively safely after a melee attack. Moon druids often want to be in melee anyway and they simply use their movement to approach, use their action to cast the spell and attack (since the attack is included in the spell), and then use a bonus action to wild shape. The druid then does their job as tank while contagion does its thing or they can move away and absorb any opportunity attack damage with the wild shape. Non-moon druids just need to survive until their next turn when they can disengage to avoid opportunity attacks (or go invisible, cast a spell that heavily obscures vision, use a teleport effect, have someone else in the party draw out the opportunity attack, have someone else involuntarily move you out of big bad's reach, or just use an action to wild shape and eat the opportunity attack as you leave, etc). If the druid is riding a mount then they don't even have to give up an action to disengage as they can just have the mount use it's action to disengage.
I still find it generally a questionable use of a 5th level spell slot since CON saves are high for a lot of BBEGs at level 9+. The BBEG doesn't need to use Legendary resistance if they roll successfully to resist the save.
For most Moon Druids, approaching a BBEG without Wildshape active is pretty dangerous. I suppose that if your DM permits the PC to swap out use of Wildshape with the ability to summon a beast Familiar, then it would become practical in situations where the party has reliable intel about the BBEG and can prepare it ahead of time.
I guess if you wanted to use this in a big fight against a single tough opponent, assuming they are not immune to the poisoned condition, the cantrip Mind Sliver might be handy to give -1d4 to their saves, if you could cast it before each of their turns.
I guess if you wanted to use this in a big fight against a single tough opponent, assuming they are not immune to the poisoned condition, the cantrip Mind Sliver might be handy to give -1d4 to their saves, if you could cast it before each of their turns.
That plus an Eloquence Bard would make it all but certain you would have them fail to at least one sickness.
There are non-communicable diseases, but the word contagion itself is for communicable ones. There's a weird sort of disconnect, and I don't think a DM is wrong wither either way of playing it. In the section on diseases in the DMG, it does say they can serve as plot devices.
Yes, kind of that way - like a hint of something that should be checked out...get things going. That's how I was suggesting to use it.
Looking for a game
I agree. They should just re-write the whole spell instead of peck at it with updates.
Here's what I would have done:
* Make it actually contagious. Any creature of the same ancestry/race as the diseased creature who spends 5 minutes or more within 10 feet of them must roll 1d10. On a 1 to 3, the disease is transmitted and character must roll CON saves as written in the PHB or else become similarly infected. On a 3 to 6, the creature becomes a carrier of the disease for 7 days, has no symptoms, but can communicate the disease to other creatures within 10 feet. On a 7 to 10, the creature is fine. If there is frequent contact between an infected creature and non-infected creatures, the non-infected creatures must re-roll for possible infection twice per day. Creatures who retain partial ancestry with the creature who is spreading the infection can roll twice and pick either number to determine whether they have been infected.
* If the diseased creature is around a large number of non-story crucial NPCs of the same or partial ancestry as the infected creature, assume the following:
- For every 10 creatures, 1 will become infected and have to deal with the effects of the disease immediately, 1 will become infected and deal with the effects 12 hours after being near the infected creature, and 2 creatures will become carriers of the disease without having any symptoms. Scale this up based on population density.
Since it hasn't been mentioned, the primary combat use for contagion is taking care of all three of a BBEG's legendary resistances using a single spell/action that doesn't even require concentration. Inflicting a solid debuff while the saves are being made is a nice bonus. It's true that in most combats there will be better spells to cast (since most combats will be over in about 3 rounds) but when going up against the big boss this is the most efficient way to make them vulnerable to the blasters on your team.
It's hardly efficient though, considering that it is A) a touch spell; B) Druids are crap at being in melee except for Moon Druids who can't even use the spell until level 18 while in Wildshape; and C) it takes three failed saving throws to actually impose any of the disease effects. If this had been a Warlock Pact of the Chain ability, I would say it could be worth it, but not as a Druid spell.
When I used the term efficiency I was talking about the action economy. This is one of only a very few situations where a player can use one action to get rid of three legendary resistances. As far as I know the only other way to have one action get rid of multiple resistances is if the BBEG decides to use legendary resistances to pass concentration checks against spells/effects like magic missile or eldritch blast that create multiple instances of damage. Normally, however, they won't do that since they will just make the concentration check against small damage batches or they won't care enough about the small amount of damage to waste a legendary resistance.
As to your other points, contagion isn't useful because it actually causes disease effects. If they manifest that's awesome and combat should end quickly but they will almost never manifest because the BBEG will normally use their legendary resistances to stop the effects. Contagion is useful (against BBEGs specifically) because the spell automatically delivers the poison debuff while saves are being made and because once the big bad has used their resistances dealing with this one spell they are exposed for blasting and/or save or suck spells from the rest of your party.
It's true that the druid does need to worry about getting away from the big bad after delivering the touch attack and that contagion is even better when it can be delivered through a familiar but there are plenty of ways for druids to get away relatively safely after a melee attack. Moon druids often want to be in melee anyway and they simply use their movement to approach, use their action to cast the spell and attack (since the attack is included in the spell), and then use a bonus action to wild shape. The druid then does their job as tank while contagion does its thing or they can move away and absorb any opportunity attack damage with the wild shape. Non-moon druids just need to survive until their next turn when they can disengage to avoid opportunity attacks (or go invisible, cast a spell that heavily obscures vision, use a teleport effect, have someone else in the party draw out the opportunity attack, have someone else involuntarily move you out of big bad's reach, or just use an action to wild shape and eat the opportunity attack as you leave, etc). If the druid is riding a mount then they don't even have to give up an action to disengage as they can just have the mount use it's action to disengage.
I still find it generally a questionable use of a 5th level spell slot since CON saves are high for a lot of BBEGs at level 9+. The BBEG doesn't need to use Legendary resistance if they roll successfully to resist the save.
For most Moon Druids, approaching a BBEG without Wildshape active is pretty dangerous. I suppose that if your DM permits the PC to swap out use of Wildshape with the ability to summon a beast Familiar, then it would become practical in situations where the party has reliable intel about the BBEG and can prepare it ahead of time.
I guess if you wanted to use this in a big fight against a single tough opponent, assuming they are not immune to the poisoned condition, the cantrip Mind Sliver might be handy to give -1d4 to their saves, if you could cast it before each of their turns.
That plus an Eloquence Bard would make it all but certain you would have them fail to at least one sickness.
There are effects in the spell that cause disadvantage on saving throws, however.