Right of the bat, let me say I'm fairly new to DnD. I'm decent mechanic and roleplaying-wise but, as of late, this character build has got me running in circles.
I'm attempting to build a sword, shield, and bow character. Something akin to a Boromir -esque character with enough Legolas in him to make taking a shortbow worth the while (just watched LotR w/ the family and they're the only examples that come to mind). In other words, a character that has more emphasis on tanking while still being able to do damage from a distance.
First question, Is this asking to much of the system? Is it possible to balance both in such a way that I can fill both effectively?
It is important to note that this is for AL
At the moment I'm working with a Human (Variant) Sage (goes with the backstory...don't ask) w/ Ability Score Increases in Str and Con. , the Investigation skill, and the Martial Adept Feat (Parry and Riposte). Next comes the Proficiencies in Athletics, Perception, History, and Arcana. Fighting style is Dueling. Then ability scores are Point Buy and came out as Str 13 Dex 13 Con 13 INT 14 WIS 14 CHA 8 (High in INT and WIS because, again, it goes with the Sage Background). I haven't equipped him with much of anything yet though it would most likely be leather armor, longsword, shield, and shortbow. I'd like him to take the Champion Archetype and pickup a few more feats along the way along with the Ability score improvements.
Suggestions, comments, questions, and concerns are all welcome.
Alright let me go over the character builder step by step. Note that I'm not taking in account the PHB+1 rule of AL. If you take a certain option, it might be possible that another becomes unavailable.
1. Race: -Variant Human: great choice, nothing to add. -Language & Skill: pick whatever you want. Since I'm suggesting a DEX based build you might want to take Acrobatics over Athletics -ASI: STR & CON. For your current build INT & WIS would actually be better choices. When you are using point buy going from a 12 to a 13 costs 1 point and going from a 13 to a 14 costs 2 points. When going from a 12 to a 14 or from 13 to a 14 with your ASI doesn't matter. If you do it this way, you can have a 13 14 13 14 14 8 statline, so just a free +1 DEX. For the type of fighter you are going, DEX will probably be your most important stat. I'd suggest starting with at least a 14 in DEX, but preferably a 16. You probably want to increase this to 20 ASAP, since this stat will increase both your to hit, damage and AC. If you want a lot of feats starting with a higher DEX is better. I'd suggest putting your two points in DEX & WIS (not for later; change WIS to INT depending on which one you want to be higher). -Feat: Martial Adept. This is a good choice, the following are just alternatives for you to consider. Keen Mind or Observant (Extra INT/WIS, mainly for more sage flavour and the extra stat boost), Lucky (this is generally seen as a very good feat, so much so that some DM's prohibit variant humans from taking this), Prodigy (XgtE) or Skilled (again mainly for the sage flavour, I prefer Prodigy over Skilled). Shield Master (I personally really love this feat), Tough (More health is always great way to increase your tankiness) and lastly we have the two ranged feats Crossbow Expert (crossbows generally deal more damage than bows) and Sharpshooter.
2. Class: Mixing ranged and melee? You want ASI/Feats? You want to be able to tank a couple of hits? You don't care about magic? Fighter is probably the correct choice. I'm going over the options until lvl 5, after that you should have enough experience to choose for yourself. -Hit Points, Second Wind, Action Surge and Extra Attack: no choices to be made here. -Proficiencies: same as for V. Human, just pick what you want. -Fighting Style: Dueling is a solid choice, but sadly only helps in melee. If you think you will attack from range more often archery is probably better (I prefer a +2 to hit over a +2 to damage). Protection is the best choice if you want to focus on protecting others. Finally I find defense a good, but fairly boring, choice. Normally this is seen as the weaker pick, but it helps to tank (which you did mention as a goal) and it works whether you are wielding a bow or a shield. -Martial Archetype: Champion. Generally the champion is seen as the weakest of the Fighter subclasses, but it is one of the easier classes to play. The second fighting style will also be more useful for your build than for most other fighters, since you will be mixing melee and ranged. The best option would probably be the battlemaster, since they have maneuvers that can be used for both ranged and melee attacks. The Student of War and Know your Enemy tiers also fit with the sage theme. Another option is the Purple Dragon Knight (SCAG). I feel this subclass really fits Boromir. The generic name of the subclass is Banneret, since the Purple Dragon Knight thing might not exist in your campaign. This subclass has a large focus on helping your allies. The last option I will discuss is the Samurai. You might want to change the name to more in line with your campaign/character idea, but I feel the abilities also match. -ASI: my suggestion is getting to 20 DEX first and then picking up feats (see above for my recommendations) . Increasing CON is also great if you want more health, but if that's the only reason, then don't forget about the tough feat.
3. Abilities As I mentioned above you can gain two points just by changing what stat increases you choose for your race. Another thing you want to remember is that the only that matters is your modifier, a 13 has no advantage over a 12, since both give +1. Exception to this rule are multiclasses. My personal suggestion is the following: 10 15 14 12 13 8. This leads to the following totals: +0 STR, +3 DEX, +2 CON, +1 INT, +2 WIS, -1 CHA. If you really want a 14 in both INT and WIS, I would suggest going 11 14 13 14 13 8. This would lead to +0 STR, +2 DEX, +1 CON, +2 INT, +2 WIS, -1 CHA. For your first ASI I would then increase DEX and CON. If you take a feat that gives a +1, this will change. Assuming you take the Observant feat (+1 WIS) I would change my human increases to +1 DEX & +1 INT. You can then 'buy' the following stats 12, 15, 12, 13, 13, 8 for the following totals: +1 STR, +3 DEX, +1 CON, +2 INT, +2 WIS, -1 CHA. For more health you can go 9 STR and 14 CON for -1 STR and +2 CON.
4. Description Entirely up to you.
5. Equipment We went with a DEX-based build, so I went with rapier and shield for melee and a longbow for range. Crossbows deal more damage, but require a feat if you want to attack more than once per round. Longbows also feel more Legolas-y. You can take shortbows, but this decreases the damage without any real advantage (except looks or whatever). If you dislike a longbow and rapier you can always call them an Elven bow and an Elven sword. I'm pretty sure that's legal in AL if you don't change the stats. For armour I suggest taking the best light armour you can get your hands on. I'm not going to discuss magic items. If you ever get the possibility to choose a magic item, ask again.
I build an example for you: Borogas. Note: first time trying to link a character, let me know if it doesn't work. I will also probably delete the character in a couple of weeks.
I build an example for you: Borogas. Note: first time trying to link a character, let me know if it doesn't work. I will also probably delete the character in a couple of weeks.
There is not yet a view-only character sheet, so only a character's owner (I can't say creator anymore, thanks to the recent update), the DM of the campaign it's in (if any), and moderators and staff members (for bug-finding purposes) can see that character.
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
So here was the final outcome after taking Petward's advice
Note * At this time I'm not really worried about leveling the character to twenty *speculatively*. Leveling decisions will be made when party mechanics have been examined further.
2nd Note * I created two sheets for the same character, one for AL, the other for homebrew. Same in every way except for starting equipment (I rolled fairly well for my starting wealth for the HB)
Race: Human Variant
Language: Doesn’t really matter
Ability Score Increases: DEX & CON
Skill: Investigation
Starting Feat: Resilient (DEX) – Now not only do I get a boost to my STR and CON Saving throws but my DEX as well. Also increases my DEX by one
Class: Fighter
Proficiencies: Acrobatics and Athletics
Fighting Style : Dueling - Sorry Petward. I just prefer the +2 damage. With a rapier (reclassified as an arming sword) I’m already pushing two-handed weapon damage. As I increase my DEX my chances to hit will get better anyway
Ability (Final) Scores
STR (13) – I’m still shooting for heavy armor so with two feats or with some clever point distribution I can get it to 15 while still getting my DEX and another Ability Score up
DEX (16) – Thanks to the Resilient Feat and the Var. Human ASI my original input of 14 is now a 16
CON (14) – Var. Human ASI and Fighter Class increase
INT (13) – I’m still pretty smart just not Spellcaster level smart which is ok because I don’t plan on going down the unicorn and rainbows road (just a joke, spellcasters are awesome, just not my cup of tea… at the moment)
WIS (13) – Once again, pretty wise just not Wizard wise
CHA (8) – Let’s face it, we academics aren’t really known for our sense of humor or our charming personalities
Background : Sage (would have preferred archeologist but I’m not going to drop money on Tomb of Annihilation right now)
Skill Proficiencies: Arcana, History
Languages: No Elves or Dwarves are going to be calling me names behind my back… just to my face
Starting Equipment –
AL – Leather & Shield ( AC16…not bad) Longbow w/ arrows & Rapier (as a starting item? Ok…), and an explorer’s pack plus scholar items (I’ll probably sell as soon as I can to buy some armor or equipment)
HB – Chain shirt & Shield (AC 17 @ Lvl 1!!!), Longbow w/ arrows & Shortsword ( rolled well for my Starting wealth but not that well – Arming sword (rapier) will come later when I have killed the rest of my par… I mean saved the princess or something), plus a few extra items that will help me survive
Final comments? Any advice going forward? I'm thinking about dipping into Ranger for the Colossus Slayer (I want that *#$%@ dragon dead!). Still not sure about going Battlemaster, Eldritch Knight, or Champion (still leaning Champion: extra chance of crits and such) I've got a list of 16 feats that I need to whittle down to 3 -7 but I think so far I'm at a survivable level for most D&D encounters in or out of AL.
Putting on or removing a shield is a full action. This means that if you start combat by shooting arrows, you have to either shoot arrows the whole time, use your sword without a shield, or spend a round not attacking to put on your shield.
Wanting to use heavy armor with a finesse weapon makes you need strength when you wouldn't otherwise. Using studded leather armor with 20 dexterity gets you an AC of 17. Plate armor gets you AC 18. Not a huge difference and by leaving your strength at 10ish (or 8 if you're really dumping that stat) you could invest those points/feats into things that make you better at what you do (like dex and con).
Outside of some edge cases like heavy armor requirements, jumping distances, and multiclassing, having a 13 in a stat is functionally identical to having a 12. They both give you a +1 bonus. Again, it's generally better to invest those points into making you better at what you do.
Within PHB and AL rules, you can essentially mix and match the PHB backgrounds to make one that suits you. The rules for it are on page 125. Maybe that doesn't include the backgrounds feature you want, but it does open up some options other than straight up sage if you're looking for something a little different.
These quibbles are just from the standpoint of optimization. If you are trying to be true to your concept then more power to you.
If I could suggest something quite different, but still fitting the mold of "emphasis on tanking while still being able to do damage from a distance", I would suggest an Eldritch Knight. Focus on strength for the heavy armor. Get rid of dexterity since it doesn't help in heavy armor. Take the defensive fighting style. Use thrown weapons for damage from a distance (admittedly much less distance than a bow) until you get level 3 and some damage cantrips.
I hope you find these suggestions helpful whatever you decide to do. Good luck.
edit: After looking back through the thread, I realize some if these points have already been covered so I apologize for the repetition. Also, I don't actually think I'm smarter than you 😀
I'm thinking about dipping into Ranger for the Colossus Slayer (I want that *#$%@ dragon dead!).
Why not go full Ranger then? Just curious. Seems a bit more in line with your character concept.
Still not sure about going Battlemaster, Eldritch Knight, or Champion (still leaning Champion: extra chance of crits and such)
I'm usually not one to tell players what to play but think reeeeeally hard before picking Champion. It's an order of magnitude weaker than every other option. There's simply no way to get enough mileage out of the 1 extra crit you'll get every 20 attack rolls to justify what you're losing from other subclasses.
Battle Master and Eldritch Knight are both fine choices. Have you considered Samurai or Arcane Archer?
Samurai's abilities work equally well with melee or ranged weapons. You'd also pick up an extra skill, proficiency in Wisdom saves and the ability to add your WIS mod to your Charisma (Persuasion) checks.
Arcane Archer obviously leans more towards using the bow, but it also has some great abilities that don't require high INT. Bursting Arrow has no save and Grasping Arrow will always cost the opponent at least 1 action to take off no matter how bad your save DC is.
Putting on or removing a shield is a full action. This means that if you start combat by shooting arrows, you have to either shoot arrows the whole time, use your sword without a shield, or spend a round not attacking to put on your shield.
You also need another action to switch weapons unless you drop your current weapon on the ground. Sheathing a weapon is an object interaction. Drawing a weapon is an object interaction. You only get one free interaction each turn. Cutting the shield out of the equation makes things much simpler - you don't need to put away the bow to draw your sword and fight back.
Wanting to use heavy armor with a finesse weapon makes you need strength when you wouldn't otherwise. Using studded leather armor with 20 dexterity gets you an AC of 17. Plate armor gets you AC 18. Not a huge difference and by leaving your strength at 10ish (or 8 if you're really dumping that stat) you could invest those points/feats into things that make you better at what you do (like dex and con).
And even before hitting 20 DEX, scale mail is just as good as chain mail if your DEX mod is +2 or higher. The main usefulness of heavy armor is being able to sacrifice your DEX and prioritize your other ability scores.
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Right of the bat, let me say I'm fairly new to DnD. I'm decent mechanic and roleplaying-wise but, as of late, this character build has got me running in circles.
I'm attempting to build a sword, shield, and bow character. Something akin to a Boromir -esque character with enough Legolas in him to make taking a shortbow worth the while (just watched LotR w/ the family and they're the only examples that come to mind). In other words, a character that has more emphasis on tanking while still being able to do damage from a distance.
First question, Is this asking to much of the system? Is it possible to balance both in such a way that I can fill both effectively?
It is important to note that this is for AL
At the moment I'm working with a Human (Variant) Sage (goes with the backstory...don't ask) w/ Ability Score Increases in Str and Con. , the Investigation skill, and the Martial Adept Feat (Parry and Riposte). Next comes the Proficiencies in Athletics, Perception, History, and Arcana. Fighting style is Dueling. Then ability scores are Point Buy and came out as Str 13 Dex 13 Con 13 INT 14 WIS 14 CHA 8 (High in INT and WIS because, again, it goes with the Sage Background). I haven't equipped him with much of anything yet though it would most likely be leather armor, longsword, shield, and shortbow. I'd like him to take the Champion Archetype and pickup a few more feats along the way along with the Ability score improvements.
Suggestions, comments, questions, and concerns are all welcome.
Alright let me go over the character builder step by step. Note that I'm not taking in account the PHB+1 rule of AL. If you take a certain option, it might be possible that another becomes unavailable.
1. Race:
-Variant Human: great choice, nothing to add.
-Language & Skill: pick whatever you want. Since I'm suggesting a DEX based build you might want to take Acrobatics over Athletics
-ASI: STR & CON. For your current build INT & WIS would actually be better choices. When you are using point buy going from a 12 to a 13 costs 1 point and going from a 13 to a 14 costs 2 points. When going from a 12 to a 14 or from 13 to a 14 with your ASI doesn't matter. If you do it this way, you can have a 13 14 13 14 14 8 statline, so just a free +1 DEX. For the type of fighter you are going, DEX will probably be your most important stat. I'd suggest starting with at least a 14 in DEX, but preferably a 16. You probably want to increase this to 20 ASAP, since this stat will increase both your to hit, damage and AC. If you want a lot of feats starting with a higher DEX is better. I'd suggest putting your two points in DEX & WIS (not for later; change WIS to INT depending on which one you want to be higher).
-Feat: Martial Adept. This is a good choice, the following are just alternatives for you to consider. Keen Mind or Observant (Extra INT/WIS, mainly for more sage flavour and the extra stat boost), Lucky (this is generally seen as a very good feat, so much so that some DM's prohibit variant humans from taking this), Prodigy (XgtE) or Skilled (again mainly for the sage flavour, I prefer Prodigy over Skilled). Shield Master (I personally really love this feat), Tough (More health is always great way to increase your tankiness) and lastly we have the two ranged feats Crossbow Expert (crossbows generally deal more damage than bows) and Sharpshooter.
2. Class:
Mixing ranged and melee? You want ASI/Feats? You want to be able to tank a couple of hits? You don't care about magic? Fighter is probably the correct choice.
I'm going over the options until lvl 5, after that you should have enough experience to choose for yourself.
-Hit Points, Second Wind, Action Surge and Extra Attack: no choices to be made here.
-Proficiencies: same as for V. Human, just pick what you want.
-Fighting Style: Dueling is a solid choice, but sadly only helps in melee. If you think you will attack from range more often archery is probably better (I prefer a +2 to hit over a +2 to damage). Protection is the best choice if you want to focus on protecting others. Finally I find defense a good, but fairly boring, choice. Normally this is seen as the weaker pick, but it helps to tank (which you did mention as a goal) and it works whether you are wielding a bow or a shield.
-Martial Archetype: Champion. Generally the champion is seen as the weakest of the Fighter subclasses, but it is one of the easier classes to play. The second fighting style will also be more useful for your build than for most other fighters, since you will be mixing melee and ranged. The best option would probably be the battlemaster, since they have maneuvers that can be used for both ranged and melee attacks. The Student of War and Know your Enemy tiers also fit with the sage theme. Another option is the Purple Dragon Knight (SCAG). I feel this subclass really fits Boromir. The generic name of the subclass is Banneret, since the Purple Dragon Knight thing might not exist in your campaign. This subclass has a large focus on helping your allies. The last option I will discuss is the Samurai. You might want to change the name to more in line with your campaign/character idea, but I feel the abilities also match.
-ASI: my suggestion is getting to 20 DEX first and then picking up feats (see above for my recommendations) . Increasing CON is also great if you want more health, but if that's the only reason, then don't forget about the tough feat.
3. Abilities
As I mentioned above you can gain two points just by changing what stat increases you choose for your race. Another thing you want to remember is that the only that matters is your modifier, a 13 has no advantage over a 12, since both give +1. Exception to this rule are multiclasses. My personal suggestion is the following: 10 15 14 12 13 8. This leads to the following totals: +0 STR, +3 DEX, +2 CON, +1 INT, +2 WIS, -1 CHA. If you really want a 14 in both INT and WIS, I would suggest going 11 14 13 14 13 8. This would lead to +0 STR, +2 DEX, +1 CON, +2 INT, +2 WIS, -1 CHA. For your first ASI I would then increase DEX and CON. If you take a feat that gives a +1, this will change. Assuming you take the Observant feat (+1 WIS) I would change my human increases to +1 DEX & +1 INT. You can then 'buy' the following stats 12, 15, 12, 13, 13, 8 for the following totals: +1 STR, +3 DEX, +1 CON, +2 INT, +2 WIS, -1 CHA. For more health you can go 9 STR and 14 CON for -1 STR and +2 CON.
4. Description
Entirely up to you.
5. Equipment
We went with a DEX-based build, so I went with rapier and shield for melee and a longbow for range. Crossbows deal more damage, but require a feat if you want to attack more than once per round. Longbows also feel more Legolas-y. You can take shortbows, but this decreases the damage without any real advantage (except looks or whatever). If you dislike a longbow and rapier you can always call them an Elven bow and an Elven sword. I'm pretty sure that's legal in AL if you don't change the stats. For armour I suggest taking the best light armour you can get your hands on. I'm not going to discuss magic items. If you ever get the possibility to choose a magic item, ask again.
I build an example for you: Borogas.
Note: first time trying to link a character, let me know if it doesn't work. I will also probably delete the character in a couple of weeks.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Tooltips (Help/aid)
So here was the final outcome after taking Petward's advice
Note * At this time I'm not really worried about leveling the character to twenty *speculatively*. Leveling decisions will be made when party mechanics have been examined further.
2nd Note * I created two sheets for the same character, one for AL, the other for homebrew. Same in every way except for starting equipment (I rolled fairly well for my starting wealth for the HB)
Final comments? Any advice going forward? I'm thinking about dipping into Ranger for the Colossus Slayer (I want that *#$%@ dragon dead!). Still not sure about going Battlemaster, Eldritch Knight, or Champion (still leaning Champion: extra chance of crits and such) I've got a list of 16 feats that I need to whittle down to 3 -7 but I think so far I'm at a survivable level for most D&D encounters in or out of AL.
A few comments:
Putting on or removing a shield is a full action. This means that if you start combat by shooting arrows, you have to either shoot arrows the whole time, use your sword without a shield, or spend a round not attacking to put on your shield.
Wanting to use heavy armor with a finesse weapon makes you need strength when you wouldn't otherwise. Using studded leather armor with 20 dexterity gets you an AC of 17. Plate armor gets you AC 18. Not a huge difference and by leaving your strength at 10ish (or 8 if you're really dumping that stat) you could invest those points/feats into things that make you better at what you do (like dex and con).
Outside of some edge cases like heavy armor requirements, jumping distances, and multiclassing, having a 13 in a stat is functionally identical to having a 12. They both give you a +1 bonus. Again, it's generally better to invest those points into making you better at what you do.
Within PHB and AL rules, you can essentially mix and match the PHB backgrounds to make one that suits you. The rules for it are on page 125. Maybe that doesn't include the backgrounds feature you want, but it does open up some options other than straight up sage if you're looking for something a little different.
These quibbles are just from the standpoint of optimization. If you are trying to be true to your concept then more power to you.
If I could suggest something quite different, but still fitting the mold of "emphasis on tanking while still being able to do damage from a distance", I would suggest an Eldritch Knight. Focus on strength for the heavy armor. Get rid of dexterity since it doesn't help in heavy armor. Take the defensive fighting style. Use thrown weapons for damage from a distance (admittedly much less distance than a bow) until you get level 3 and some damage cantrips.
I hope you find these suggestions helpful whatever you decide to do. Good luck.
edit: After looking back through the thread, I realize some if these points have already been covered so I apologize for the repetition. Also, I don't actually think I'm smarter than you 😀
Why not go full Ranger then? Just curious. Seems a bit more in line with your character concept.
I'm usually not one to tell players what to play but think reeeeeally hard before picking Champion. It's an order of magnitude weaker than every other option. There's simply no way to get enough mileage out of the 1 extra crit you'll get every 20 attack rolls to justify what you're losing from other subclasses.
Battle Master and Eldritch Knight are both fine choices. Have you considered Samurai or Arcane Archer?
Samurai's abilities work equally well with melee or ranged weapons. You'd also pick up an extra skill, proficiency in Wisdom saves and the ability to add your WIS mod to your Charisma (Persuasion) checks.
Arcane Archer obviously leans more towards using the bow, but it also has some great abilities that don't require high INT. Bursting Arrow has no save and Grasping Arrow will always cost the opponent at least 1 action to take off no matter how bad your save DC is.
You also need another action to switch weapons unless you drop your current weapon on the ground. Sheathing a weapon is an object interaction. Drawing a weapon is an object interaction. You only get one free interaction each turn. Cutting the shield out of the equation makes things much simpler - you don't need to put away the bow to draw your sword and fight back.
And even before hitting 20 DEX, scale mail is just as good as chain mail if your DEX mod is +2 or higher. The main usefulness of heavy armor is being able to sacrifice your DEX and prioritize your other ability scores.