You said deathknight’s outside sources had no more significance than any of us and you aren’t satisfied with any proof we gave, but you provided no more proof than anyone else, so that is what you left us with. Show actual proof of what you say, and then tell us to show ours.
Answer: Yep absolutely agree Wren just needs to show evidence that could prove his claim then we could start to have a debate but he doesn't (not like there's much proof out there to support his stance to begin with anyways). And since he doesn't/can't backup his stance with evidence all Wren has done is just play off/ignore what evidence we bring forth.
I know. Don’t call out problems that you also have, or the other guy will do the same. Sage advice is silent on that aspect of wish, probably because the way everyone but wren does it is correct, or maybe no one’s asked them about it.
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You said deathknight’s outside sources had no more significance than any of us and you aren’t satisfied with any proof we gave, but you provided no more proof than anyone else, so that is what you left us with. Show actual proof of what you say, and then tell us to show ours.
Answer: Yep absolutely agree Wren just needs to show evidence that could prove his claim then we could start to have a debate but he doesn't (not like there's much proof out there to support his stance to begin with anyways). And since he doesn't/can't backup his stance with evidence all Wren has done is just play off/ignore what evidence we bring forth.
I know. Don’t call out problems that you also have, or the other guy will do the same. Sage advice is silent on that aspect of wish, probably because the way everyone but wren does it is correct, or maybe no one’s asked them about it.
It's because everyone reads it the correct way and sees that the spell is instant and takes one action and plays it that way.
Basically every possible resource is clearly saying it's this way, every time someone asks in another forum/site the answer is the same, and there is no information/evidence that what Wren is saying is even a possibility or really makes sense if you read how spells work.
You said deathknight’s outside sources had no more significance than any of us and you aren’t satisfied with any proof we gave, but you provided no more proof than anyone else, so that is what you left us with. Show actual proof of what you say, and then tell us to show ours.
Answer: Yep absolutely agree Wren just needs to show evidence that could prove his claim then we could start to have a debate but he doesn't (not like there's much proof out there to support his stance to begin with anyways). And since he doesn't/can't backup his stance with evidence all Wren has done is just play off/ignore what evidence we bring forth.
I know. Don’t call out problems that you also have, or the other guy will do the same. Sage advice is silent on that aspect of wish, probably because the way everyone but wren does it is correct, or maybe no one’s asked them about it.
YOU are the one who claimed that your take on the spell is RAW. Prove it by providing a direct quote and page number. I never made that claim, because my take on the spell is based on elementary logic.
My take on the spell doesn't depend on an arbitrary and indefensible distinction being made between casting time and range.
They did and the relevant rules that apply.
You don't accept it. Not sure what else to do here as it seems you won't accept the written rules or pages and pages of personal experience and rulings that agree with said rules.
If you really want to prove your point then provide counter evidence... Which you still have not done
So, when it is claimed that they gave the direct quote, but this is what they quoted, they really didn't.
If you really want to prove your point then provide counter evidence...
Basic English?
Answer: You literally ignoring what we have said Wish has a casting time of one action and duration of instantaneous that means when you cast it it’s immediate it not that hard to understand.
And the PHB agrees that the casting time is as not as complicated as you make it especially when this is compounded by the fact that in the wish spell it says “The spell simply takes effect.” No matter how you look at it Wren your in denial unless you give actual proof but you can’t since there is none.
Page 203 see "Casting a Spell." of the Players Handbook (PHB): "When a character casts any spell, the same basic rules are followed, regardless of the character's class or the spell's effects.”
Answer: You literally ignoring what we have said Wish has a casting time of one action and duration of instantaneous
It also has a range of self.
Please post the direct quote and page number where Wish says that, when duplicating a spell, use the casting time of Wish, but the range and duration of the duplicated spell.
It's in the spell description.... You know where you always look for casting times with all other spells unless otherwise stated in the spell description.
Answer: You literally ignoring what we have said Wish has a casting time of one action and duration of instantaneous
It also has a range of self.
Please post the direct quote and page number where Wish says that, when duplicating a spell, use the casting time of Wish, but the range and duration of the duplicated spell.
You don’t accept logic, and you don’t provide proof. You’re not convincing anyone of anything. The range of self is often ignored, a placeholder because the range changes depending on what the spell is used for. The major effects that cause stress have infinite range. If the replicated spell had infinite range, it would likely say infinite range or something similar. It “duplicates a spell.” This means you create the effect without actually casting the spell. The casting time has good reason to be ignored. The duration is simply because permanent fireballs and instant hold persons don’t work.
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Answer: You literally ignoring what we have said Wish has a casting time of one action and duration of instantaneous
It also has a range of self.
Please post the direct quote and page number where Wish says that, when duplicating a spell, use the casting time of Wish, but the range and duration of the duplicated spell.
You don’t accept logic, and you don’t provide proof. You’re not convincing anyone of anything. The range of self is often ignored, a placeholder because the range changes depending on what the spell is used for. The major effects that cause stress have infinite range. If the replicated spell had infinite range, it would likely say infinite range or something similar. It “duplicates a spell.” This means you create the effect without actually casting the spell. The casting time has good reason to be ignored. The duration is simply because permanent fireballs and instant hold persons don’t work.
To add to this... I've literally never seen anyone interpret it the way you have Wren.
Not a single resource from any medium I've searched (Reddit, rpgstack, DDB, YouTube) has anyone interpreted it the way you have.
If you DM'd and ruled it this way I would understand if your players were upset as there is literally no precedent for it in any form I can find anywhere.
Only if you cleared it first with them how you would rule it would it be ok and even then it would be homebrew
Answer: You literally ignoring what we have said Wish has a casting time of one action and duration of instantaneous
It also has a range of self.
Please post the direct quote and page number where Wish says that, when duplicating a spell, use the casting time of Wish, but the range and duration of the duplicated spell.
You don’t accept logic, and you don’t provide proof. You’re not convincing anyone of anything. The range of self is often ignored, a placeholder because the range changes depending on what the spell is used for. The major effects that cause stress have infinite range. If the replicated spell had infinite range, it would likely say infinite range or something similar. It “duplicates a spell.” This means you create the effect without actually casting the spell. The casting time has good reason to be ignored. The duration is simply because permanent fireballs and instant hold persons don’t work.
To add to this... I've literally never seen anyone interpret it the way you have Wren.
Not a single resource from any medium I've searched (Reddit, rpgstack, DDB, YouTube) has anyone interpreted it the way you have.
If you DM'd and ruled it this way I would understand if your players were upset as there is literally no precedent for it in any form I can find anywhere.
Only if you cleared it first with them how you would rule it would it be ok and even then it would be homebrew
Though I haven’t looked at such extensive sources like you, me neither. Other than wren, of course.
If there were a tiny shred of evidence for his way, everyone else wouldn’t matter. But there isn’t, so it still wipes the floor with his argument.
I'm still waiting for a page number and direct quote saying to ignore casting time of the duplicated spell, but keep the range.,
Answer: You have to be joking… are you that incapable of reading? I’ve shown you and I’ll show you again and if you still say “still waiting for a page number and direct quote” or “you don’t have actual RAW evidence” I’ll will brand you as incompetent as seemingly you can’t read.
Page 203 see "Casting a Spell." of the Players Handbook (PHB)
"When a character casts any spell, the same basic rules are followed, regardless of the character's class or the spell's effects.
Each spell description begins with a block of information, including the spell's name, level, school of magic, casting time, range, components, and duration. The rest of a spell entry describes the spell's effect."
Page 203 see "Casting Time" of the Players Handbook (PHB)
"Most spells require a single action to cast, but some spells require a bonus action, a reaction, or much more time to cast."
Page 289-289 see "Wish" in the Players Handbook (PHB)
"Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Self
Components: V
Duration: Instantaneous
Wish is the mightiest spell a mortal creature can cast. By simply speaking aloud, you can alter the very foundations of reality in accord with your desires.
The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of 8th level or lower. You don't need to meet any requirements in that spell, including costly components. The spell simply takes effect."
Wren just read it in fact just the bolded parts you are wrong actually just read this:
”When a character casts any spell, the same basic rules are followed, regardless of the character's class or the spell's effects.”
And do you know what basic rules for Wish is it is 1 action to cast, is instantaneous and it has a reach of self since you aren’t granting the wish to another creature you are letting yourself use wish to duplicate a 8th level or lower spell as such as you duplicate that spell you use It’s range. The duplicated spell “simply takes effect,” without needing “to meet any requirements in that spell.”
If after what I JUST showed you still think I am wrong then as I have said you are a lost cause and effectively incompetent at reading and comprehension.
this isn't it
You don’t accept logic, and you don’t provide proof. You’re not convincing anyone of anything. The range of self is often ignored, a placeholder because the range changes depending on what the spell is used for. The major effects that cause stress have infinite range. If the replicated spell had infinite range, it would likely say infinite range or something similar. It “duplicates a spell.” This means you create the effect without actually casting the spell. The casting time has good reason to be ignored. The duration is simply because permanent fireballs and instant hold persons don’t work.
Keeping the casting time of the duplicated spell makes sense because it avoids an obviously broken problem - the 70,000 Similacrums.
Answer: No it doesn’t as it goes directly against what the spell says and how the wish spell is intended to work.
I'm still waiting for a page number and direct quote saying to ignore casting time of the duplicated spell, but keep the range.,
Answer: You have to be joking… are you that incapable of reading? I’ve shown you and I’ll show you again and if you still say “still waiting for a page number and direct quote” or “you don’t have actual RAW evidence” I’ll will brand you as incompetent as seemingly you can’t read.
Page 203 see "Casting a Spell." of the Players Handbook (PHB)
"When a character casts any spell, the same basic rules are followed, regardless of the character's class or the spell's effects.
Each spell description begins with a block of information, including the spell's name, level, school of magic, casting time, range, components, and duration. The rest of a spell entry describes the spell's effect."
Page 203 see "Casting Time" of the Players Handbook (PHB)
"Most spells require a single action to cast, but some spells require a bonus action, a reaction, or much more time to cast."
Page 289-289 see "Wish" in the Players Handbook (PHB)
"Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Self
Components: V
Duration: Instantaneous
Wish is the mightiest spell a mortal creature can cast. By simply speaking aloud, you can alter the very foundations of reality in accord with your desires.
The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of 8th level or lower. You don't need to meet any requirements in that spell, including costly components. The spell simply takes effect."
Wren just read it in fact just the bolded parts you are wrong actually just read this:
”When a character casts any spell, the same basic rules are followed, regardless of the character's class or the spell's effects.”
And do you know what basic rules for Wish is it is 1 action to cast, is instantaneous and it has a reach of self since you aren’t granting the wish to another creature you are letting yourself use wish to duplicate a 8th level or lower spell as such as you duplicate that spell you use It’s range. The duplicated spell “simply takes effect,” without needing “to meet any requirements in that spell.”
If after what I JUST showed you still think I am wrong then as I have said you are a lost cause and effectively incompetent at reading and comprehension.
this isn't it
You don’t accept logic, and you don’t provide proof. You’re not convincing anyone of anything. The range of self is often ignored, a placeholder because the range changes depending on what the spell is used for. The major effects that cause stress have infinite range. If the replicated spell had infinite range, it would likely say infinite range or something similar. It “duplicates a spell.” This means you create the effect without actually casting the spell. The casting time has good reason to be ignored. The duration is simply because permanent fireballs and instant hold persons don’t work.
Keeping the casting time of the duplicated spell makes sense because it avoids an obviously broken problem - the 70,000 Similacrums.
Answer: No it doesn’t as it goes directly against what the spell says and how the wish spell is intended to work.
Anyway, the simulacrum thing is still possible but slower. And if you’re looking for campaign busters, how’s turning your whole party into pit fiends but keeping their alignment and personality? Brokenly overpowered isn’t a valid argument at this level.
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I have read your post many, many times De4thKn1ght. I've read it since you started posting it several pages ago. I do not see how you could possibly reach your conclusion from it. I think you are making some mental error that you are simply unaware of.
Answer: If you still think otherwise then I have nothing else to say to you except I’m sorry for being heated with my response in previous posts.
But I’ll say this Wren you just keep grinding my gears till they have break and I must say they have broken as you have utterly missed the point I have made and continue to somehow not understand the evidence I have brought forth.
As for the matter of Wish I’m done with it you can argue with anyone else as you see fit but I see no evidence nor anyone that’ll support you. As no matter how I present you proof none of it will sway your mind in fact I feel safe enough to say that the entirety of the DnD community disagrees with you.
Sorry that you think that not being able to see any sense in what you wrote is grinding your gears until broken. I suggest that you humbly consider that you might be wrong.
Answer: I’d say the same to you Wren while adding a word of advice if this argument is going to keep going instead of just continuing to essentially just saying “Mo your wrong” try to if you can find evidence that support’s your view although admittedly there is none.
I'm still waiting for a page number and direct quote saying to ignore casting time of the duplicated spell, but keep the range.,
Answer: You have to be joking… are you that incapable of reading? I’ve shown you and I’ll show you again and if you still say “still waiting for a page number and direct quote” or “you don’t have actual RAW evidence” I’ll will brand you as incompetent as seemingly you can’t read.
Page 203 see "Casting a Spell." of the Players Handbook (PHB)
"When a character casts any spell, the same basic rules are followed, regardless of the character's class or the spell's effects.
Each spell description begins with a block of information, including the spell's name, level, school of magic, casting time, range, components, and duration. The rest of a spell entry describes the spell's effect."
Page 203 see "Casting Time" of the Players Handbook (PHB)
"Most spells require a single action to cast, but some spells require a bonus action, a reaction, or much more time to cast."
Page 289-289 see "Wish" in the Players Handbook (PHB)
"Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Self
Components: V
Duration: Instantaneous
Wish is the mightiest spell a mortal creature can cast. By simply speaking aloud, you can alter the very foundations of reality in accord with your desires.
The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of 8th level or lower. You don't need to meet any requirements in that spell, including costly components. The spell simply takes effect."
Wren just read it in fact just the bolded parts you are wrong actually just read this:
”When a character casts any spell, the same basic rules are followed, regardless of the character's class or the spell's effects.”
And do you know what basic rules for Wish is it is 1 action to cast, is instantaneous and it has a reach of self since you aren’t granting the wish to another creature you are letting yourself use wish to duplicate a 8th level or lower spell as such as you duplicate that spell you use It’s range. The duplicated spell “simply takes effect,” without needing “to meet any requirements in that spell.”
If after what I JUST showed you still think I am wrong then as I have said you are a lost cause and effectively incompetent at reading and comprehension.
this isn't it
You don’t accept logic, and you don’t provide proof. You’re not convincing anyone of anything. The range of self is often ignored, a placeholder because the range changes depending on what the spell is used for. The major effects that cause stress have infinite range. If the replicated spell had infinite range, it would likely say infinite range or something similar. It “duplicates a spell.” This means you create the effect without actually casting the spell. The casting time has good reason to be ignored. The duration is simply because permanent fireballs and instant hold persons don’t work.
Keeping the casting time of the duplicated spell makes sense because it avoids an obviously broken problem - the 70,000 Similacrums.
Answer: No it doesn’t as it goes directly against what the spell says and how the wish spell is intended to work.
Anyway, the simulacrum thing is still possible but slower. And if you’re looking for campaign busters, how’s turning your whole party into pit fiends but keeping their alignment and personality? Brokenly overpowered isn’t a valid argument at this level.
70,000 simulacrums would take centuries to about 35000 days. "but slower" is an understatement.
As for turning your party into pit fiends, is this the magic jar/clone thing again? Because it has already been pointed out that that doesn't work.
No. True polymorph. The spell becomes permanent if you concentrate the full duration, and concentration isn’t required by that point. Also, please provide proof of the wish thing, as you haven’t yet.
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You guys keep asking me to provide RAW evidence despite the fact that I'm not the one who claimed my position is RAW.
It is starting to make me wonder how well you understand English.
Well we’ve provided more evidence that it is than yours that it isn’t. Nobody’s convinced anyone of anything as of now because you are not listening and have not provided any evidence besides “too op” which doesn’t hold up at all at this level or true polymorph wouldn’t have been created. Also, the 35000 days doesn’t hold up to further inspection. By spending a bit more, exponential growth can be achieved using normal simulacrum. I haven’t calculated exactly, but if all we care about is more copies it could likely be done within a few months. Overwhelming numbers in the week. If running out of money is a problem, have one copy create expensive things with wish to fund the next copies. You have not been stopped by the ruling, only delayed. It doesn’t create problems that weren’t already there
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Given that the two biggest methods presented in this thread (the Magnum Opus and 70,000 Simulations) don't work, I think the strongest presentation now is the Illusionist mindf*ck. Am I right?
not really
The Magnum Opus and 70,000 simulations technically are off-topic from the overall discussion (which was a no-prep full white-room situation). We just ran out of things to talk about.
Cool to hear Magnum Opus doesn't work.
The discussion of 70,000 simulations is weird, because there's no definition on what a "requirement" is. There's also the second front, which is "the spell takes effect". Most people interpret "take effect" to mean the spell does the effect listed in the spell description, not "take effect" to mean it starts the casting process.
This is slightly supported by the wish description, which states "The spell simply takes effect" simply meaning in an easy process, or meaning "just" (which itself means, at this or that moment in time).
However, any mechanical nuance derived from the definition of a word is always going to be a bit awkward so all in all any discussion about RAW wish + casting times is going to go nowhere.
Given that the two biggest methods presented in this thread (the Magnum Opus and 70,000 Simulations) don't work, I think the strongest presentation now is the Illusionist mindf*ck. Am I right?
not really
The Magnum Opus and 70,000 simulations technically are off-topic from the overall discussion (which was a no-prep full white-room situation). We just ran out of things to talk about.
Cool to hear Magnum Opus doesn't work.
The discussion of 70,000 simulations is weird, because there's no definition on what a "requirement" is. There's also the second front, which is "the spell takes effect". Most people interpret "take effect" to mean the spell does the effect listed in the spell description, not "take effect" to mean it starts the casting process.
This is slightly supported by the wish description, which states "The spell simply takes effect" simply meaning in an easy process, or meaning "just" (which itself means, at this or that moment in time).
However, any mechanical nuance derived from the definition of a word is always going to be a bit awkward so all in all any discussion about RAW wish + casting times is going to go nowhere.
edit: i looked into the magnus opos stuff and wow that's confusing give me time to process
Thank you
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New post because magic jar stuff deserves its own post
Disclaimer: I am way less sure about my interpretation of this because the wish stuff was pretty straightforward. This stuff is just confusing.
Magic Jar: Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the creature, though you retain your alignment and your Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. You retain the benefit of your own class features. If the target has any class levels, you can't use any of its class features.
You aren't the creature, yes. Instead, you are the creature + a lot. Which is a lot better than being the creature.
Now the awkward part, when you die, two effects go off at the same time. XGtE states that the person in control picks which effect goes first, thankfully, Magic Jar states you're the one in control. Therefore, you pick Magic Jar to go first.
De4th would say that:
The creature & the hybrid creature (you + whatever monster) die, and then you make a saving throw. You fail intentionally, "dying". Activating clone because you didn't clone the creature, you cloned "you" as magic jar states you gained all those statistics above, which you still have.
The other side would say you didn't clone you; you cloned the host body. By wording of Magic Jar, the host body does not actually get any of your abilities, only your "soul" I guess does. Then there's the question on if your soul would be put into the hybrid body or not.
This is a little awkward because the issue is that magic jar pulls out a lot of terms and doesn't define any of them or how they relate to each other, "you" vs soul vs host body vs creature vs whatever. I could be reading this wrong though because I'm way less sure on this wording than I was on Wish.
That’s the problem with vague wording. Everyone interprets magic jar differently, because there are so many seemingly correct ways to interpret it. Someone should go ask sage advice about the magic jar-clone interaction.
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Hey just found another way you could do the Magic Jar part of The Magnum Opus strategy although it is a little complicated with the souls jumping around and such. The Plan:
Cast Magic Jar on yourself, your body falls catatonic, and your soul enters Jar #1.
You project your soul and possess a humanoid. The humanoid’s soul enters jar #1.
You recast Magic Jar, the humanoid body falls catatonic, your soul enters Jar #2.
You project your soul and reenter your original catatonic body. Jar #2 is empty.
The humanoid body is empty and there are two castings of the spell overlapping.
Move the humanoid body more than 100ft away from Jar #1. Destroy Jar #1 ending the first casting of Magic Jar.
The humanoid’s soul can’t return to its body and it dies. Your soul must return to your original body or you die but your soul is already in your original body, so you live. The second casting is still active.
The humanoid body is empty. The Jar #2 is empty.
Move the humanoid body within 100ft of Jar #2. Destroy Jar #2, ending the second casting of Magic Jar.
Your soul returns to the humanoid body (original body of this casting).
Your original body is empty. There is no active casting of Magic Jar.
With this process you are permanently in your new body without any casting of Magic Jar active and you have your original body as a spare body that you can save for later.
Additionally, remember this can be seamlessly added into The Magnum Opus strategy and is quite the strategy. As for those who will probably cite "Combining Magical Effects" to try to say it doesn't work I recommend they read the section again.
Anyways sorry it is very complicated but I tried for a while to make it easy to understand but I just wanted to show another way it could be done as opposed to the Magic Jar, Clone focused strategy that while less complicated is currently under scrutiny (even though I think it works I give them another option and if somehow all else fails I do have a third option to fall back on although it is techniqually dispel able but it is still powerful).
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I know. Don’t call out problems that you also have, or the other guy will do the same. Sage advice is silent on that aspect of wish, probably because the way everyone but wren does it is correct, or maybe no one’s asked them about it.
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It's because everyone reads it the correct way and sees that the spell is instant and takes one action and plays it that way.
Basically every possible resource is clearly saying it's this way, every time someone asks in another forum/site the answer is the same, and there is no information/evidence that what Wren is saying is even a possibility or really makes sense if you read how spells work.
They did and the relevant rules that apply.
You don't accept it. Not sure what else to do here as it seems you won't accept the written rules or pages and pages of personal experience and rulings that agree with said rules.
If you really want to prove your point then provide counter evidence... Which you still have not done
Answer: You literally ignoring what we have said Wish has a casting time of one action and duration of instantaneous that means when you cast it it’s immediate it not that hard to understand.
And the PHB agrees that the casting time is as not as complicated as you make it especially when this is compounded by the fact that in the wish spell it says “The spell simply takes effect.” No matter how you look at it Wren your in denial unless you give actual proof but you can’t since there is none.
Page 203 see "Casting a Spell." of the Players Handbook (PHB):
"When a character casts any spell, the same basic rules are followed, regardless of the character's class or the spell's effects.”
It's in the spell description.... You know where you always look for casting times with all other spells unless otherwise stated in the spell description.
The rules state this and have been cited.
You don’t accept logic, and you don’t provide proof. You’re not convincing anyone of anything. The range of self is often ignored, a placeholder because the range changes depending on what the spell is used for. The major effects that cause stress have infinite range. If the replicated spell had infinite range, it would likely say infinite range or something similar. It “duplicates a spell.” This means you create the effect without actually casting the spell. The casting time has good reason to be ignored. The duration is simply because permanent fireballs and instant hold persons don’t work.
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To add to this... I've literally never seen anyone interpret it the way you have Wren.
Not a single resource from any medium I've searched (Reddit, rpgstack, DDB, YouTube) has anyone interpreted it the way you have.
If you DM'd and ruled it this way I would understand if your players were upset as there is literally no precedent for it in any form I can find anywhere.
Only if you cleared it first with them how you would rule it would it be ok and even then it would be homebrew
Though I haven’t looked at such extensive sources like you, me neither. Other than wren, of course.
If there were a tiny shred of evidence for his way, everyone else wouldn’t matter. But there isn’t, so it still wipes the floor with his argument.
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Provide proof
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Answer: You have to be joking… are you that incapable of reading? I’ve shown you and I’ll show you again and if you still say “still waiting for a page number and direct quote” or “you don’t have actual RAW evidence” I’ll will brand you as incompetent as seemingly you can’t read.
Page 203 see "Casting a Spell." of the Players Handbook (PHB)
"When a character casts any spell, the same basic rules are followed, regardless of the character's class or the spell's effects.
Each spell description begins with a block of information, including the spell's name, level, school of magic, casting time, range, components, and duration. The rest of a spell entry describes the spell's effect."
Page 203 see "Casting Time" of the Players Handbook (PHB)
"Most spells require a single action to cast, but some spells require a bonus action, a reaction, or much more time to cast."
Page 289-289 see "Wish" in the Players Handbook (PHB)
"Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Self
Components: V
Duration: Instantaneous
Wish is the mightiest spell a mortal creature can cast. By simply speaking aloud, you can alter the very foundations of reality in accord with your desires.
The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of 8th level or lower. You don't need to meet any requirements in that spell, including costly components. The spell simply takes effect."
Wren just read it in fact just the bolded parts you are wrong actually just read this:
”When a character casts any spell, the same basic rules are followed, regardless of the character's class or the spell's effects.”
And do you know what basic rules for Wish is it is 1 action to cast, is instantaneous and it has a reach of self since you aren’t granting the wish to another creature you are letting yourself use wish to duplicate a 8th level or lower spell as such as you duplicate that spell you use It’s range. The duplicated spell “simply takes effect,” without needing “to meet any requirements in that spell.”
If after what I JUST showed you still think I am wrong then as I have said you are a lost cause and effectively incompetent at reading and comprehension.
Answer: No it doesn’t as it goes directly against what the spell says and how the wish spell is intended to work.
Anyway, the simulacrum thing is still possible but slower. And if you’re looking for campaign busters, how’s turning your whole party into pit fiends but keeping their alignment and personality? Brokenly overpowered isn’t a valid argument at this level.
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Answer: If you still think otherwise then I have nothing else to say to you except I’m sorry for being heated with my response in previous posts.
But I’ll say this Wren you just keep grinding my gears till they have break and I must say they have broken as you have utterly missed the point I have made and continue to somehow not understand the evidence I have brought forth.
As for the matter of Wish I’m done with it you can argue with anyone else as you see fit but I see no evidence nor anyone that’ll support you. As no matter how I present you proof none of it will sway your mind in fact I feel safe enough to say that the entirety of the DnD community disagrees with you.
Answer: I’d say the same to you Wren while adding a word of advice if this argument is going to keep going instead of just continuing to essentially just saying “Mo your wrong” try to if you can find evidence that support’s your view although admittedly there is none.
No. True polymorph. The spell becomes permanent if you concentrate the full duration, and concentration isn’t required by that point. Also, please provide proof of the wish thing, as you haven’t yet.
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Well we’ve provided more evidence that it is than yours that it isn’t. Nobody’s convinced anyone of anything as of now because you are not listening and have not provided any evidence besides “too op” which doesn’t hold up at all at this level or true polymorph wouldn’t have been created. Also, the 35000 days doesn’t hold up to further inspection. By spending a bit more, exponential growth can be achieved using normal simulacrum. I haven’t calculated exactly, but if all we care about is more copies it could likely be done within a few months. Overwhelming numbers in the week. If running out of money is a problem, have one copy create expensive things with wish to fund the next copies. You have not been stopped by the ruling, only delayed.
It doesn’t create problems that weren’t already there
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not really
The Magnum Opus and 70,000 simulations technically are off-topic from the overall discussion (which was a no-prep full white-room situation). We just ran out of things to talk about.
Cool to hear Magnum Opus doesn't work.
The discussion of 70,000 simulations is weird, because there's no definition on what a "requirement" is. There's also the second front, which is "the spell takes effect". Most people interpret "take effect" to mean the spell does the effect listed in the spell description, not "take effect" to mean it starts the casting process.
This is slightly supported by the wish description, which states "The spell simply takes effect" simply meaning in an easy process, or meaning "just" (which itself means, at this or that moment in time).
However, any mechanical nuance derived from the definition of a word is always going to be a bit awkward so all in all any discussion about RAW wish + casting times is going to go nowhere.
edit: Magnus Opus is confusing
moved to a new post
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
Thank you
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New post because magic jar stuff deserves its own post
Disclaimer: I am way less sure about my interpretation of this because the wish stuff was pretty straightforward. This stuff is just confusing.
You aren't the creature, yes. Instead, you are the creature + a lot. Which is a lot better than being the creature.
Now the awkward part, when you die, two effects go off at the same time. XGtE states that the person in control picks which effect goes first, thankfully, Magic Jar states you're the one in control. Therefore, you pick Magic Jar to go first.
De4th would say that:
The creature & the hybrid creature (you + whatever monster) die, and then you make a saving throw. You fail intentionally, "dying". Activating clone because you didn't clone the creature, you cloned "you" as magic jar states you gained all those statistics above, which you still have.
The other side would say you didn't clone you; you cloned the host body. By wording of Magic Jar, the host body does not actually get any of your abilities, only your "soul" I guess does. Then there's the question on if your soul would be put into the hybrid body or not.
This is a little awkward because the issue is that magic jar pulls out a lot of terms and doesn't define any of them or how they relate to each other, "you" vs soul vs host body vs creature vs whatever. I could be reading this wrong though because I'm way less sure on this wording than I was on Wish.
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
That’s the problem with vague wording. Everyone interprets magic jar differently, because there are so many seemingly correct ways to interpret it. Someone should go ask sage advice about the magic jar-clone interaction.
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Hey just found another way you could do the Magic Jar part of The Magnum Opus strategy although it is a little complicated with the souls jumping around and such. The Plan:
With this process you are permanently in your new body without any casting of Magic Jar active and you have your original body as a spare body that you can save for later.
Additionally, remember this can be seamlessly added into The Magnum Opus strategy and is quite the strategy. As for those who will probably cite "Combining Magical Effects" to try to say it doesn't work I recommend they read the section again.
Anyways sorry it is very complicated but I tried for a while to make it easy to understand but I just wanted to show another way it could be done as opposed to the Magic Jar, Clone focused strategy that while less complicated is currently under scrutiny (even though I think it works I give them another option and if somehow all else fails I do have a third option to fall back on although it is techniqually dispel able but it is still powerful).