so like all the fighter subclasses are really cool and have good features, and the class as an whole is udeful when multiclassing, but it feels like the main class features of the fighter are significantly weaker than the class features of other classes, and that the class as a whole has an weaker ratio of time spend having fun to table time.
Second wind is about as powerful as 1st level healing spells, and it is nice that you get to use it once per short rest, but you may only target yourself with it, and it is a bonus action, so unless you are mainly using two weapon fighting this will not cost anything in terms of action economy, so there is not a lot of thinking / fun in using it, you just kinda do it. No think to it, no fun to it, you just do
Action surge, at the level it is given, feels absolutely horrible. You will likely only be able to pull it of once in a single combat and then that is it, so you really have to make that additional action count somehow, and yet most just use it for additional attacks, but since you are still just level one that will just be one more attack and that is it, if that particular attack misses then that is kinda sad for you i guess, like once 5th level is reached this becomes far far better of course but before then it is just kinda sad. Compare this feature to ki and what monks can do with it at 2nd level and well, for monks their ki is technically weaker than this feature since the additional actions must take your bonus action that you are using for other things and unarmed strikes are weaker than the weapon attacks of an fighter, but the significant advantage with them is that ki acchives the same things as action surge would, but you can use it twice in a single combat, it is not the only feature you get that level unlike action surge and at least step of the wind also lets you jump further. Similarly half casters get their first few spells this level, and unlike action surge whom will only matter for a single round of combat, a single spell can persist for an entire combat, your bless spell, hunters mark or ensnaring strike will have done more to the tide of battle than what any single action ever could if it lasts for just a few turns (unless you are a particularly clever player who used action surge to interact with the environment in some clever way like climbing your opponent, copping down logs to block a pathway, interact with levers, try to disarm a trap twice or whatnot)
extra ability score improvements one of the things said about fighters is how they have a bunch more ability score improvements than anyone else, but like ignoring the levels where every class gains an increase to their abillity scores, they only ever get extra increases at 6th and 14th level. The first extra ASI is very nice and very useful, but you are unlikely to ever reach 14th level
additional attacks: until you reach 11th level, you will have just as many attacks as any other combatant, in terms of damage output the only class who is entirely focused on an mastery of combat and all things martial, will be no better at consistent per round damage output than any ranger or paladin, when not accounting for what you spent your ASI on or what subclass you picked. And even then at 11th level all ranger subclases other than monster slayer get an feature that lets them also make three attacks per turn, however they may not do so every turn and it often comes at the cost of being unable to make all of them against one target, but like most games dont make it past
indomitable: it is only usable once per long rest. At 9th level, stuff other classes can do once per long rest include summoning devils and raising people from the dead, among classes that are of your caliber of matrial classes other half caster at this level unlock two 3rd level spell slots at 9th level and with it the abillity to summon animals to their aid and thus temporarily break the action economy for rangers and ether return the recently dead or massively buff all nearby healing for paladins. But the once per long rest feature you unlock at this level is a single reroll of a failed saving throw, useful no doubt against monsters with frightening presence or at will charms where the first successful save means they cannot charm or frighten you again, or in situations where a spell is cast where failing the save is an non option, such as instant death spells or powerful enchantments that can enslave you or int saves against an intellect devourer, but is this really all you are going to get at this level? no other features, ones that are maybe a little more exiting or that might boost the other two pillars of the game? nothing like that at all? and then at 13th and 17th level, when both half and full casters also get new spell levels, you get more uses of this and nothing else other than an additional action surge at 17th level
like this entire class just feels like an soulless creation, an attempt at creating an newbie friendly class void of any flavor, void of heart or spirit, an pure vehicle of attacks with no power outside of combat, whose most outstanding trait is their ability to perpetuate the status quo. Contrast this with the barbarian, an martial class done right, one who gets a myriad of increasingly fun features as you gain levels, a lot of their class have risk/ reward aspects to them or otherwise require an surprising amount of strategy, and who has a lot more out of combat capabilities both with their main class features and with their sub classes for some weird reason. I donno is the fighter better than i think? is it just that the fighters features are perhaps a little less flashy compared to other classes
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Complexity belongs in subclasses so players can opt into it. Not everyone wants to play a complex war game when they sit down for a session of D&D with their buddies. And yes, the fighter was deliberately kept leaner because 1) it encompasses a much broader group of concepts than other martial classes and 2) it's used to introduce thousands of players into the game. "Guy that rages out and hits hard" is a more focused concept than "some sort of weapons and armor expert" which can mean anything from battlefield generals to magical elven archers to samurai.
Action Surge and Indomitable are amazing and can turn the tide of a battle. Action Surge is so powerful it's the cornerstone of dozens of multiclass builds and Indomitable is effectively Legendary Resistance for players; it's an insurance policy against being sidelined early by a bad save.
As far as Ability Score Improvement goes, I will never turn down a free feat.
Complexity belongs in subclasses so players can opt into it.
yeah but would it not be nice to not just be good at things that are not just stabbing things, perhaps some more stuff in the interaction or exploration pillars of the game, or even just stuff outside just mindlessly using the attack action every turn, yeah grappling and other actions in combat are nice and available to everyone, and you can defenetly pick battle master and have a little fun with that and yet still it would be fun if we had something at will where the player will have to ask themselves "is this the right time to use this abillity, can i position myself to better take advantage of this situation", akin to the barbarians reckless attack or the volley action available to the hunter ranger or the bonus action to make an melee attack after having cast an cantrip available only to eldrich knights that is kinda nice
Action Surge and Indomitable are amazing and can turn the tide of a battle. Action Surge is so powerful it's the cornerstone of dozens of multiclass builds and Indomitable is effectively Legendary Resistance for players; it's an insurance policy against being sidelined early by a bad save.
yeah i get that in certain situations where you really need to not fail a saving throw legendary resistance can be really nice, but i really want to know how exactly you find action surge to be that great like yes, with many multiclass builds or when you are trying to make an particular gimmic work it is indeed very nice to burst two spells in the same turn or to set something up in the same turn as you execute, but for somebody who is just an fighter, and especially for an second level fighter who has no extra attack it will depend significantly on what kinds of monsters you are fighting and how much fun your DM has whilst organizing different combat terrains, in the context of just an fighter who is just an fighter it is kinda meh, unless i am missing some crucial detail
I don't think the Fighter's base class features are bad by any stretch, I think they're excellent. They're just not flashy. Second Wind isn't a LOT of healing, but free HP is free HP and it scales only slightly behind Healing Word cast at the highest level possible by a caster of your your level. Action Surge could mean being able to Attack and Disengage on one turn, or a chance to Dash even further, or cast a spell then attack(for EKs), or just go HAM on an enemy when the time is right. If you take your last attack and the BBEG looks like he's on his last legs? Action Surge and finish him off before he has a chance to lash out again. Got the BBEG flanked? Action Surge and take advantage of the Advantage. There are loads of situations where being able to take an extra action is huge. Indomitable may limited in how many times you can use it per day, but inevitably you're going to find yourself in a situation where failing a saving throw means you are well and truly boned. When that day comes, you'll be glad you get a reroll. And the Extra Attacks are the very thing that keeps you viable in combat into the higher levels. You may not have the spike damage potential of a Rogue or a Paladin, but you are hard to beat in terms of reliable damage-dealing. And yes, those two bonus ASI/feat slots are awesome, especially since it means you get one at levels 4, 6 and 8.
It's perhaps the strongest core class in the game, mechanically. For flavor, pick a fighter subclass of and have at it. Also, in terms of rp hooks, 5E puts more emphasis onto race and background than class.
My issue is neither one of strength nor of rp flavor, but of *choices* in combat. Casters are just more fun to play for this reason. It is also why battlemaster and EK are more fun than champion.
Second Wind also is NOT a spell. You can do it while tied up and silenced, and that's the way you like it. No counter-spell, no nasty anti-magic. It just plain works.
Action surge is incredible. Particularly for gishes (including the Eldritch Fighter). The ability to do another whole action is great. Yeah, some people waste it, that's on them. Ki is NOT the same as an action. Just because at early levels most only use the Action Surge for the weakest point does not mean you can pretend that using ki for an extra attack is the same as Action Surge. An Action Surge will let an Eldritch Fighter cast two spells in the same round. And they do not have to be cantrips.
No fighter takes ability score improvements, they take feats. A feat at 6th makes you much more powerful The fact that you do not get to 14th applies to ALL classes.
It is true that other classes get additional attacks. This is not a reason why the fighter is bad, it is a reason why the fighter is just as good as thm.
Indomitable. 1/long rest abilities are that way because they are GOOD. The reroll is particular good because unlike most others, you get to make the decision AFTER you know if you need it. Lots of other re-rolls are "after you roll the die, but before you know if you failed'.
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In addition, you missed the single biggest benefit that a Fighter gets: an extra archetype ability. Granted it comes late (18th), but it's better than the Paladin.
Other classes get 4 subclass abilities, the Fighter gets 5. 3rd, 7th, 10th, 15 and 18th, Barbarians get 3rd, 6th, 10th, and 14th. A bit sooner, but they miss out on the 18th, Paladins get 3rd, 7th, 15, and 20th. Wizard gets 2,6,10, 14.
"No fighter takes ability score improvements, they take feats."? Overgeneralizations like this are reckless and usually wrong. A Fighter wants his attack stat to be as high as possible just like a magic wielder wants their casting stat high. And if they're a melee combatant, they're probably going to be thinking about a Con boost for more HP. And then of course there's the Cavalier. They have one ability that has a number of daily uses dependent on their Strength modifier, and another dependent on their Constitution modifier. If anything they're going to be even MORE inclined to max those two stats(especially the Con mod, because Warding Maneuver is amazeballs). So unless you roll a Mountain Dwarf Fighter with two nat18's, there's room for your key stats to improve and in many cases you'll want them to.
Not to mention, a fighters action surge, second wind, and some of it's subclass stuff back on a short rest. So you're just as good 6 battles into the day as when you started. Meanwhile you're wizard is digging a hole to die in.
"No fighter takes ability score improvements, they take feats."? Overgeneralizations like this are reckless and usually wrong. A Fighter wants his attack stat to be as high as possible just like a magic wielder wants their casting stat high. And if they're a melee combatant, they're probably going to be thinking about a Con boost for more HP. And then of course there's the Cavalier. They have one ability that has a number of daily uses dependent on their Strength modifier, and another dependent on their Constitution modifier. If anything they're going to be even MORE inclined to max those two stats(especially the Con mod, because Warding Maneuver is amazeballs). So unless you roll a Mountain Dwarf Fighter with two nat18's, there's room for your key stats to improve and in many cases you'll want them to.
This thread is not about whether the feats or stats are better. It is about whether the fighter is good or not. He denigrated the stats, I brought up the feats. Because the feats are better and you have to look at the best case scenario, not the worst.
Oh, you might take one +2 stats to max out one stat (St/Dex) Only other reason to do it is if you are silly enough to take a MAD character. But then you have chosen to weaken yourself.
The Feats are by definition better than the stat boosts. Otherwise people would never take them.
Compare say (Great Weapon Master or Sharpshooter) vs your lovely Warding Maneuver. Yes, the HP and save +1 are nice. And the maneuver is cool , but it is only one more use of Warding Maneuver. But Compare with -5 to hit +10 to damage. Unlimited times. GWM/SS lets you consistently do a ton of damage to the all to common big unarmored folk. There are a ton of creatures like a ROC (AC 15, 248 hp). Or if you are more defensive, consider shield master. Lets you shove, bonus to dex saves AND turns Dex for 1/2 saves into Dex for NO damage.
I would personally like to see why a feat is "by definition better than a stat boost".
Especially considering Great Weapon Master and Sharpshooter - going for max STR/DEX is the most reliable way to even enable this playstyle in the first place. Particularly in the lower levels, when your Proficiency is low, a raw stat increase can be more effective than a Feat. In addition, as mentioned by others, most of the Subclasses (even the not MAD ones) gain other benefits from these stats, like increasing your AC or DC.
In regards to the comparison between Shield Master and CON ASI for Cavalier (Warding Maneuver) - Imho, you get more out of the CON increase. You get more uses of Warding Maneuver, your HP get buffed and the only real Shield Master benefit is the part considering DEX Saves. Since Cavalier has slightly altered versions of Sentinel and Shield Master as core features and you will want to save your reaction to control the battlefield, most of the time you won't even use the Shield Master reaction. The shove as a Bonus Action is not the biggest benefit, considering you have things like the Unwavering Mark Bonus Action Attack and can still forego one Attack to shove if need be.
Feats are a great addition - if you have good base Stats to begin with.
Considering the point of OP on Action Surge being underwhelming at level 2, I strongly disagree. An extra Action at this level can be alot more than a simple attack. It can mean killing an opponent instead of letting it get another turn, or using double of your regular movement, which may be key as a melee. It might even mean being able to attack AND dodge on the same turn. Or knocking an enemy prone for all melees and even attacking yourself in the process. This may end the combat a round or two earlier, as a result saving HP and Spellslots of group members, we all know how scarce these can be at early levels. Clever use of this is what you should always aim for, regardless if level 2 or 20. All this comes back on a short rest.
'Considering the point of OP on Action Surge being underwhelming at level 2, I strongly disagree. An extra Action at this level can be alot more than a simple attack. It can mean killing an opponent instead of letting it get another turn, or using double of your regular movement, which may be key as a melee. It might even mean being able to attack AND dodge on the same turn. Or knocking an enemy prone for all melees and even attacking yourself in the process. This may end the combat a round or two earlier, as a result saving HP and Spellslots of group members, we all know how scarce these can be at early levels. Clever use of this is what you should always aim for, regardless if level 2 or 20. All this comes back on a short rest.
Cheers and have a nice weekend everybody :-)
yeah, but you get to do it exactly once in a combat, yeah unlike ki and cunning action it does not take your bonus action, but it is not like you are using your bonus action for much early on and i just feel the fighter gets an much worse feature compared to monks and rouges whose features may be more limited but whom can be used more freely multiple times per combat.
Second Wind also is NOT a spell. You can do it while tied up and silenced, and that's the way you like it. No counter-spell, no nasty anti-magic. It just plain works.
Action surge is incredible. Particularly for gishes (including the Eldritch Fighter). The ability to do another whole action is great. Yeah, some people waste it, that's on them. Ki is NOT the same as an action. Just because at early levels most only use the Action Surge for the weakest point does not mean you can pretend that using ki for an extra attack is the same as Action Surge. An Action Surge will let an Eldritch Fighter cast two spells in the same round. And they do not have to be cantrips.
No fighter takes ability score improvements, they take feats. A feat at 6th makes you much more powerful The fact that you do not get to 14th applies to ALL classes.
It is true that other classes get additional attacks. This is not a reason why the fighter is bad, it is a reason why the fighter is just as good as thm.
Indomitable. 1/long rest abilities are that way because they are GOOD. The reroll is particular good because unlike most others, you get to make the decision AFTER you know if you need it. Lots of other re-rolls are "after you roll the die, but before you know if you failed'.
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In addition, you missed the single biggest benefit that a Fighter gets: an extra archetype ability. Granted it comes late (18th), but it's better than the Paladin.
Other classes get 4 subclass abilities, the Fighter gets 5. 3rd, 7th, 10th, 15 and 18th, Barbarians get 3rd, 6th, 10th, and 14th. A bit sooner, but they miss out on the 18th, Paladins get 3rd, 7th, 15, and 20th. Wizard gets 2,6,10, 14.
And so on.
this entire post is mostly about the base class features, not about specific subclasses becuase clearly that is where the fighter shines, where it truly stands on it own as a class, and besides the vast majority of campaigns and at or before level 10, there is not a whole lot of level 18 fighters out there, or even level 18 characters in general
Action surge can be great for those characters with the resources to utilize it, eldritch knights, dwarves with that one feat for dodging etc, but again not every fighter is an multiclass or an eldrich knight, and it says nothing of the humble 2nd level half-orc fighter who has no such properties, for most it is an single extra dash or an single disengage or a single extra doge, as you gain levels and attacks and features action surge becomes more and more useful, but at this very moment at 2nd level it mostly does what ki and cunning action does, at these early levels you do not really use your bonus action a lot, spending ki to dash, disengage or doge as a bonus action does mean loosing out on your extra unarmed strike, but that is honestly a pretty small price to pay, and it will not matter at all for an rouge using an shortbow or rapier.
abillity score improvements are nice, as are feats, but you have as many as the rest of your party, then one more than the rest of your party at 6th, and then the campaign gets stale and the party stops playing before you ever reach 14th level
i am not saying that indomidable is weak, but it is defently underwhelming, shure it might one day save your as from power word kill or being entralled by an vampire or succubus or from being terrified to the bone, but it is not something that imposes your will onto the world, changing it to fit your view of it like other features, it merely perserves the status quo, and it is not very fun to use, there is not a lot of thinking involved in using it "okay i failed a saving throw, will this be really really bad? if not i am not using it". And there is not a whole lot of ways you can use this in an creative manner, it is not very interesting at all.
And also, there is an severe lack of any out of combat abillities in the class. Rangers have their favoured enemy and favored terrain, their extra language types and hide in plain sight, most spellcasters have various spells, including at will rituals and cantrips, that can help outside of combat, artificers, bards and rouges all have expertise and extra skill based uses, monks have the abillity to run on water or up vertical surfaces, jump really far and potentially at really high levels speak all languages, barbarians can avoid traps easier (or with the as of yet unofficial Class Variant UA you can replace it for some sweet sweet expertise), eventiually rarely if ever fail skill checks involving strength and you could even use your rage to try and break open jail bars, survive falls and hazards that would kill ordinary people or smash an object to pieces (it ends very quickly but it can be done), plus their ancestral path often comes with something nice that helps in those areas of the game.
fighters get no base features that might help them do anything other than stab your opponent to death, some subclasses gain some bonus proficiencies at 3rd level and just might give you an nice but incredebly minor out of combat feature at 7th level, and that is the extent to the non combat power of most fighters.
one might argue that your feat, background, skill, and racial choices might boost your abillities outside combat, but those are the kinds of things literally every other class also has access to, for the fighter class to almost completely neglect two thirds of the games design feels wrong,
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Not much, because it's in their subclasses that they shine.
Since you'll be taking a subclass any, anything added to the base class would be added to all fighter variants and some might become too strong with that addition.
Not much, because it's in their subclasses that they shine.
Since you'll be taking a subclass any, anything added to the base class would be added to all fighter variants and some might become too strong with that addition.
yeah but the thing is every single level has to stand on its own and offer something unique and interesting for the player, every odd level the wizard gains a new level of spell and arcane recovery gets slightly stronger, and every four levels the wizard gets an abillity score increase, so the wizard only needs their subclasses to fill in the gaps at every four levels, mere subclasses is not what makes a class great, it is the cherry on top of an already great class, battle master is an fantastic subclass, and purple dragon knights can similarly be used to roleplay the fantasy of an battle commander especially with that one fighting style from the classvariants UA, but to even get to 3rd or 7th level where you get those cool features you first have to get a couple of features you might not be as interested in. Ranger has some of the best subclasses ever created in my personal oppion, but most people are still disapointed by the class.
That being said this thread has made me realize that the word i am looking for to describe this class is probably more "boring" than "bad" per se, more that they are uninteresting than weak
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
That being said this thread has made me realize that the word i am looking for to describe this class is probably more "boring" than "bad" per se, more that they are uninteresting than weak
I think this statement sums it up pretty good, though I would even go as far to say you could describe it as "simple". Neither of the two would imply "bad". None of them mean ineffective.
The features themselves aren't necessarily flashy when compared to other classes, but they can compete regardless.
Personally when playing my Fighter, I just take it as a roleplaying challenge. Being descriptive can make Action Surge so much more than just "I hit it again".
That being said this thread has made me realize that the word i am looking for to describe this class is probably more "boring" than "bad" per se, more that they are uninteresting than weak
Fighters will always have less options than spellcasters, but that’s by design. Martial classes typically have one focus - take Barbarians for example, as a class that even moreso streamlines the gaming experience by basically making it about GWM and Reckless Attack (with exceptions obviously).
What’s important to remember though is that while Wizards get spells, Fighters get extra feats and way more attacks. What does this mean? You better design your Fighter build wisely if you want to stay interested in your character.
A few questions you need to ask yourself
1) Action Economy: If you’re playing a Champion, make sure you take Feats that give you Bonus Actions, Reactions, or alternate Attack options that give you some versatility in combat. This could mean, Dual Wielder to get that Bonus Action attack, Shield Master to get the Bonus Action shove and Reaction bonus, Sentinel to increase the number of Reactions you can take, Martial Adept or Magic Initiate to round out some more actions, etc. It’s up to you to design the character to make it interesting! If all you take is Resilient Wisdom, GWM/SS, Tough, etc you’re going to end up bored doing the same thing every round. Try out Healer, a tremendously underused Feat that can ease a lot of pressure off the Healers in the party.
2) Fighting Options: Don’t underestimate the options you have, and don’t be afraid to ask the DM for the Combat Options in the DMG. Shove, Knock Prone, Disarm, etc - make it all count.
a) Take the majority of Fighters out there that find themselves surrounded by enemies and alone. Do they Dodge? Nope. They just keep attacking, leaving them open to getting swarmed, losing lots of HP, and complaining about critical hits. Adding Dodge to your repertoire makes a huge difference in combat and adds levels of strategy you don’t see often. 8 Orcs trying to hit a Fighter with AC 18 will probably mean eating 3 greatsword hits and 15% chance of a Crit. If he Dodges, you’ll eat 1 hit and 0.25% chance of a Crit. And guess what... with those odds some of them might try to run away, getting you a reaction shot anyways!
b) Take the average Fighter that’s 1v1 vs an Orc that they need to disengage from. Sure, you can disengage and run, but why not take your Attack action and use one attack to Shove? You get to do damage, have a chance for a Shove to knock them prone, and then you still get to run away. They’re prone, so again their chance of hitting is extremely low and plus when they get up they can’t re-engage you because they have to use half their movement just to stand back up.
3) Conserve your Fighter Actions for the right opportunity: Save Action Surge for that moment you get to levy all of your attacks on a Prone or Blind opponent - 6 attacks at advantage are bound to obliterate almost anyone.
a) Take the Arcane Archer for example - don’t waste your Shadow Arrow on the last attack of the round, when you don’t get to capitalize on the follow up attacks. Also, save your Arrows for Critical Hits, when you can turn 2d6 damage into 4d6 on top of the other effects.
b) Don’t use Indomitable unless you have a good shot of winning. If your save bonus is +1 vs a DC of 16, you have a 30% chance of success and 51% with Indom. With a bonus of +5 vs a DC of 16, you have a 50% chance of success and 75% with Indom. Maximize that ability.
Conclusion: Be smart about using those 2 extra feats you get. Use them to round out your Actions, not just ASIs or static skills. If you’re not getting full use out of Actions, Bonus Actions, and Reactions, then the amount of damage you do won’t matter because you’ll end up bored, just like the OP said.
Fighters as designed suck in comparison to all the other classes. If you are not intensely focused on making them better than the sum of their parts, or just dipping into it to spice up your main class with Action Surge, you will basically be the party's sidekick after a few levels. It is what it is.
I hoped for some improvements in Tasha's Cauldron of Everything, but nothing. Hell, Rogues now get a bonus action Advantage, just for not moving.
I am playing a Spear and Shield Battlemaster in my current campaign and having a blast.
The Battle Master is very versatile and the Spear being both Melee and Thrown expands the range at which I can manage the battlefield using manoeuvres.
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The previous campaigns I played in the fighters in each were exactly the same. Glaive, Polearm Master, Sentinel and Great Weapon fighting style yada yada yada.
It makes for a boring repetitive character where the superiority dice and manoeuvers exist only to add the occasion D8/D10 damage to an attack.
Second Wind.
This is for those round where you absolutely need a heal but the healer can't get to you. It is not just random temporary hitpoints. Use this ability strategically and you will come to realise it is golden.
Action Surge
Action surge really doesn't come into its own until the fighter gets three attacks and then it is amazing. Respect my restraint for not capitalising amazing.
Shield Master
If you don't have a shield and the Shield Master feat you are missing out on a lot of fun and a super ability. Shield Master is basically a free superiority dice every round. It is the 'bees knees' and the 'cat's pyjamas'.
Think about it, Attack 1, User Shield Master Bonus attack to know target prone, Attack 2+3 at advantage then action surge.
Manoeuvers
Menacing Strike and Trip Attack are the *#@# use them. They do damage even if the target makes their save and menacing strike, in particular, will force an opponent to burn up legendary saves at no cost to your damage output.
Thrown Weapons
If you use Thrown weapons particularly the spear as it works with Polearm Master the 'Thrown' ability extends your range by 20 feet.
Fighters as designed suck in comparison to all the other classes. If you are not intensely focused on making them better than the sum of their parts, or just dipping into it to spice up your main class with Action Surge, you will basically be the party's sidekick after a few levels. It is what it is.
I hoped for some improvements in Tasha's Cauldron of Everything, but nothing. Hell, Rogues now get a bonus action Advantage, just for not moving.
This, is the "master of martial combat"? LOL!
You're welcome to your opinion, of course. But given that it's the most popular class, it's fair to say that a lot of people may disagree with you.
Fighters as designed suck in comparison to all the other classes. If you are not intensely focused on making them better than the sum of their parts, or just dipping into it to spice up your main class with Action Surge, you will basically be the party's sidekick after a few levels. It is what it is.
I hoped for some improvements in Tasha's Cauldron of Everything, but nothing. Hell, Rogues now get a bonus action Advantage, just for not moving.
This, is the "master of martial combat"? LOL!
You're welcome to your opinion, of course. But given that it's the most popular class, it's fair to say that a lot of people may disagree with you.
Of course, I accept any disagreements in this!
I like playing a fighter mostly for the roleplaying right now. I know I can never dish out as much damage, tank as effectively, or control the battlefield like my comrades. Heck I'm currently playing a Battlemaster Crossbow Expert right now and I'm trying to resist the urge to multi-class as a Rogue to inflict more damage. Fingers crossed!
Hmm, thinking about it, here are some improvements I would suggest for the base fighter:
A Second Wind that increases with levels! (e.g. it becomes 2d10 +level, then 3d10 +level).
One more Action Surge (so the levels they're granted at would have to be shuffled).
A second Fighting Style so that they really are more of a "master of martial combat".
I have to say that people seem to be bat shit crazy here. The fighter is one of the classes LEAST in need of an upgrade. Monk is the weakling of the group, not fighter. Tries to do a little of everything and gets good at nothing.
All the fighter classes are really good. I have never seen anyone say "My fighter is not as good as the Barbarian/Paladin/Ranger". Yes, they are different. But they are in no way weak. The base class gets the feats, the subclasses are better than most others, and most importantly the fighter is self is front loaded so people like to take a multi-class dip.
Eldritch Knights are the highest AC around - just take Shield.
BattleMaster's Maneuvers let them control their opponent via tripping, pushing disarming.
Echo knights are flat out over-powered with their ability to teleport.
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so like all the fighter subclasses are really cool and have good features, and the class as an whole is udeful when multiclassing, but it feels like the main class features of the fighter are significantly weaker than the class features of other classes, and that the class as a whole has an weaker ratio of time spend having fun to table time.
Second wind is about as powerful as 1st level healing spells, and it is nice that you get to use it once per short rest, but you may only target yourself with it, and it is a bonus action, so unless you are mainly using two weapon fighting this will not cost anything in terms of action economy, so there is not a lot of thinking / fun in using it, you just kinda do it. No think to it, no fun to it, you just do
Action surge, at the level it is given, feels absolutely horrible. You will likely only be able to pull it of once in a single combat and then that is it, so you really have to make that additional action count somehow, and yet most just use it for additional attacks, but since you are still just level one that will just be one more attack and that is it, if that particular attack misses then that is kinda sad for you i guess, like once 5th level is reached this becomes far far better of course but before then it is just kinda sad. Compare this feature to ki and what monks can do with it at 2nd level and well, for monks their ki is technically weaker than this feature since the additional actions must take your bonus action that you are using for other things and unarmed strikes are weaker than the weapon attacks of an fighter, but the significant advantage with them is that ki acchives the same things as action surge would, but you can use it twice in a single combat, it is not the only feature you get that level unlike action surge and at least step of the wind also lets you jump further. Similarly half casters get their first few spells this level, and unlike action surge whom will only matter for a single round of combat, a single spell can persist for an entire combat, your bless spell, hunters mark or ensnaring strike will have done more to the tide of battle than what any single action ever could if it lasts for just a few turns (unless you are a particularly clever player who used action surge to interact with the environment in some clever way like climbing your opponent, copping down logs to block a pathway, interact with levers, try to disarm a trap twice or whatnot)
extra ability score improvements one of the things said about fighters is how they have a bunch more ability score improvements than anyone else, but like ignoring the levels where every class gains an increase to their abillity scores, they only ever get extra increases at 6th and 14th level. The first extra ASI is very nice and very useful, but you are unlikely to ever reach 14th level
additional attacks: until you reach 11th level, you will have just as many attacks as any other combatant, in terms of damage output the only class who is entirely focused on an mastery of combat and all things martial, will be no better at consistent per round damage output than any ranger or paladin, when not accounting for what you spent your ASI on or what subclass you picked. And even then at 11th level all ranger subclases other than monster slayer get an feature that lets them also make three attacks per turn, however they may not do so every turn and it often comes at the cost of being unable to make all of them against one target, but like most games dont make it past
indomitable: it is only usable once per long rest. At 9th level, stuff other classes can do once per long rest include summoning devils and raising people from the dead, among classes that are of your caliber of matrial classes other half caster at this level unlock two 3rd level spell slots at 9th level and with it the abillity to summon animals to their aid and thus temporarily break the action economy for rangers and ether return the recently dead or massively buff all nearby healing for paladins. But the once per long rest feature you unlock at this level is a single reroll of a failed saving throw, useful no doubt against monsters with frightening presence or at will charms where the first successful save means they cannot charm or frighten you again, or in situations where a spell is cast where failing the save is an non option, such as instant death spells or powerful enchantments that can enslave you or int saves against an intellect devourer, but is this really all you are going to get at this level? no other features, ones that are maybe a little more exiting or that might boost the other two pillars of the game? nothing like that at all? and then at 13th and 17th level, when both half and full casters also get new spell levels, you get more uses of this and nothing else other than an additional action surge at 17th level
like this entire class just feels like an soulless creation, an attempt at creating an newbie friendly class void of any flavor, void of heart or spirit, an pure vehicle of attacks with no power outside of combat, whose most outstanding trait is their ability to perpetuate the status quo. Contrast this with the barbarian, an martial class done right, one who gets a myriad of increasingly fun features as you gain levels, a lot of their class have risk/ reward aspects to them or otherwise require an surprising amount of strategy, and who has a lot more out of combat capabilities both with their main class features and with their sub classes for some weird reason. I donno is the fighter better than i think? is it just that the fighters features are perhaps a little less flashy compared to other classes
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Complexity belongs in subclasses so players can opt into it. Not everyone wants to play a complex war game when they sit down for a session of D&D with their buddies. And yes, the fighter was deliberately kept leaner because 1) it encompasses a much broader group of concepts than other martial classes and 2) it's used to introduce thousands of players into the game. "Guy that rages out and hits hard" is a more focused concept than "some sort of weapons and armor expert" which can mean anything from battlefield generals to magical elven archers to samurai.
Action Surge and Indomitable are amazing and can turn the tide of a battle. Action Surge is so powerful it's the cornerstone of dozens of multiclass builds and Indomitable is effectively Legendary Resistance for players; it's an insurance policy against being sidelined early by a bad save.
As far as Ability Score Improvement goes, I will never turn down a free feat.
yeah but would it not be nice to not just be good at things that are not just stabbing things, perhaps some more stuff in the interaction or exploration pillars of the game, or even just stuff outside just mindlessly using the attack action every turn, yeah grappling and other actions in combat are nice and available to everyone, and you can defenetly pick battle master and have a little fun with that and yet still it would be fun if we had something at will where the player will have to ask themselves "is this the right time to use this abillity, can i position myself to better take advantage of this situation", akin to the barbarians reckless attack or the volley action available to the hunter ranger or the bonus action to make an melee attack after having cast an cantrip available only to eldrich knights that is kinda nice
yeah i get that in certain situations where you really need to not fail a saving throw legendary resistance can be really nice, but i really want to know how exactly you find action surge to be that great like yes, with many multiclass builds or when you are trying to make an particular gimmic work it is indeed very nice to burst two spells in the same turn or to set something up in the same turn as you execute, but for somebody who is just an fighter, and especially for an second level fighter who has no extra attack it will depend significantly on what kinds of monsters you are fighting and how much fun your DM has whilst organizing different combat terrains, in the context of just an fighter who is just an fighter it is kinda meh, unless i am missing some crucial detail
yes free feat is very very nice, but you get like 1 of them. Still free feat is just free feat, cannot argue with that
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
I don't think the Fighter's base class features are bad by any stretch, I think they're excellent. They're just not flashy. Second Wind isn't a LOT of healing, but free HP is free HP and it scales only slightly behind Healing Word cast at the highest level possible by a caster of your your level. Action Surge could mean being able to Attack and Disengage on one turn, or a chance to Dash even further, or cast a spell then attack(for EKs), or just go HAM on an enemy when the time is right. If you take your last attack and the BBEG looks like he's on his last legs? Action Surge and finish him off before he has a chance to lash out again. Got the BBEG flanked? Action Surge and take advantage of the Advantage. There are loads of situations where being able to take an extra action is huge. Indomitable may limited in how many times you can use it per day, but inevitably you're going to find yourself in a situation where failing a saving throw means you are well and truly boned. When that day comes, you'll be glad you get a reroll. And the Extra Attacks are the very thing that keeps you viable in combat into the higher levels. You may not have the spike damage potential of a Rogue or a Paladin, but you are hard to beat in terms of reliable damage-dealing. And yes, those two bonus ASI/feat slots are awesome, especially since it means you get one at levels 4, 6 and 8.
It's perhaps the strongest core class in the game, mechanically. For flavor, pick a fighter subclass of and have at it. Also, in terms of rp hooks, 5E puts more emphasis onto race and background than class.
My issue is neither one of strength nor of rp flavor, but of *choices* in combat. Casters are just more fun to play for this reason. It is also why battlemaster and EK are more fun than champion.
Second Wind also is NOT a spell. You can do it while tied up and silenced, and that's the way you like it. No counter-spell, no nasty anti-magic. It just plain works.
Action surge is incredible. Particularly for gishes (including the Eldritch Fighter). The ability to do another whole action is great. Yeah, some people waste it, that's on them. Ki is NOT the same as an action. Just because at early levels most only use the Action Surge for the weakest point does not mean you can pretend that using ki for an extra attack is the same as Action Surge. An Action Surge will let an Eldritch Fighter cast two spells in the same round. And they do not have to be cantrips.
No fighter takes ability score improvements, they take feats. A feat at 6th makes you much more powerful The fact that you do not get to 14th applies to ALL classes.
It is true that other classes get additional attacks. This is not a reason why the fighter is bad, it is a reason why the fighter is just as good as thm.
Indomitable. 1/long rest abilities are that way because they are GOOD. The reroll is particular good because unlike most others, you get to make the decision AFTER you know if you need it. Lots of other re-rolls are "after you roll the die, but before you know if you failed'.
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In addition, you missed the single biggest benefit that a Fighter gets: an extra archetype ability. Granted it comes late (18th), but it's better than the Paladin.
Other classes get 4 subclass abilities, the Fighter gets 5. 3rd, 7th, 10th, 15 and 18th, Barbarians get 3rd, 6th, 10th, and 14th. A bit sooner, but they miss out on the 18th, Paladins get 3rd, 7th, 15, and 20th. Wizard gets 2,6,10, 14.
And so on.
"No fighter takes ability score improvements, they take feats."? Overgeneralizations like this are reckless and usually wrong. A Fighter wants his attack stat to be as high as possible just like a magic wielder wants their casting stat high. And if they're a melee combatant, they're probably going to be thinking about a Con boost for more HP. And then of course there's the Cavalier. They have one ability that has a number of daily uses dependent on their Strength modifier, and another dependent on their Constitution modifier. If anything they're going to be even MORE inclined to max those two stats(especially the Con mod, because Warding Maneuver is amazeballs). So unless you roll a Mountain Dwarf Fighter with two nat18's, there's room for your key stats to improve and in many cases you'll want them to.
Not to mention, a fighters action surge, second wind, and some of it's subclass stuff back on a short rest. So you're just as good 6 battles into the day as when you started. Meanwhile you're wizard is digging a hole to die in.
This thread is not about whether the feats or stats are better. It is about whether the fighter is good or not. He denigrated the stats, I brought up the feats. Because the feats are better and you have to look at the best case scenario, not the worst.
Oh, you might take one +2 stats to max out one stat (St/Dex) Only other reason to do it is if you are silly enough to take a MAD character. But then you have chosen to weaken yourself.
The Feats are by definition better than the stat boosts. Otherwise people would never take them.
Compare say (Great Weapon Master or Sharpshooter) vs your lovely Warding Maneuver. Yes, the HP and save +1 are nice. And the maneuver is cool , but it is only one more use of Warding Maneuver. But Compare with -5 to hit +10 to damage. Unlimited times. GWM/SS lets you consistently do a ton of damage to the all to common big unarmored folk. There are a ton of creatures like a ROC (AC 15, 248 hp). Or if you are more defensive, consider shield master. Lets you shove, bonus to dex saves AND turns Dex for 1/2 saves into Dex for NO damage.
I would personally like to see why a feat is "by definition better than a stat boost".
Especially considering Great Weapon Master and Sharpshooter - going for max STR/DEX is the most reliable way to even enable this playstyle in the first place. Particularly in the lower levels, when your Proficiency is low, a raw stat increase can be more effective than a Feat. In addition, as mentioned by others, most of the Subclasses (even the not MAD ones) gain other benefits from these stats, like increasing your AC or DC.
In regards to the comparison between Shield Master and CON ASI for Cavalier (Warding Maneuver) - Imho, you get more out of the CON increase. You get more uses of Warding Maneuver, your HP get buffed and the only real Shield Master benefit is the part considering DEX Saves. Since Cavalier has slightly altered versions of Sentinel and Shield Master as core features and you will want to save your reaction to control the battlefield, most of the time you won't even use the Shield Master reaction. The shove as a Bonus Action is not the biggest benefit, considering you have things like the Unwavering Mark Bonus Action Attack and can still forego one Attack to shove if need be.
Feats are a great addition - if you have good base Stats to begin with.
Considering the point of OP on Action Surge being underwhelming at level 2, I strongly disagree. An extra Action at this level can be alot more than a simple attack. It can mean killing an opponent instead of letting it get another turn, or using double of your regular movement, which may be key as a melee. It might even mean being able to attack AND dodge on the same turn. Or knocking an enemy prone for all melees and even attacking yourself in the process. This may end the combat a round or two earlier, as a result saving HP and Spellslots of group members, we all know how scarce these can be at early levels. Clever use of this is what you should always aim for, regardless if level 2 or 20. All this comes back on a short rest.
Cheers and have a nice weekend everybody :-)
yeah, but you get to do it exactly once in a combat, yeah unlike ki and cunning action it does not take your bonus action, but it is not like you are using your bonus action for much early on and i just feel the fighter gets an much worse feature compared to monks and rouges whose features may be more limited but whom can be used more freely multiple times per combat.
this entire post is mostly about the base class features, not about specific subclasses becuase clearly that is where the fighter shines, where it truly stands on it own as a class, and besides the vast majority of campaigns and at or before level 10, there is not a whole lot of level 18 fighters out there, or even level 18 characters in general
Action surge can be great for those characters with the resources to utilize it, eldritch knights, dwarves with that one feat for dodging etc, but again not every fighter is an multiclass or an eldrich knight, and it says nothing of the humble 2nd level half-orc fighter who has no such properties, for most it is an single extra dash or an single disengage or a single extra doge, as you gain levels and attacks and features action surge becomes more and more useful, but at this very moment at 2nd level it mostly does what ki and cunning action does, at these early levels you do not really use your bonus action a lot, spending ki to dash, disengage or doge as a bonus action does mean loosing out on your extra unarmed strike, but that is honestly a pretty small price to pay, and it will not matter at all for an rouge using an shortbow or rapier.
abillity score improvements are nice, as are feats, but you have as many as the rest of your party, then one more than the rest of your party at 6th, and then the campaign gets stale and the party stops playing before you ever reach 14th level
i am not saying that indomidable is weak, but it is defently underwhelming, shure it might one day save your as from power word kill or being entralled by an vampire or succubus or from being terrified to the bone, but it is not something that imposes your will onto the world, changing it to fit your view of it like other features, it merely perserves the status quo, and it is not very fun to use, there is not a lot of thinking involved in using it "okay i failed a saving throw, will this be really really bad? if not i am not using it". And there is not a whole lot of ways you can use this in an creative manner, it is not very interesting at all.
And also, there is an severe lack of any out of combat abillities in the class. Rangers have their favoured enemy and favored terrain, their extra language types and hide in plain sight, most spellcasters have various spells, including at will rituals and cantrips, that can help outside of combat, artificers, bards and rouges all have expertise and extra skill based uses, monks have the abillity to run on water or up vertical surfaces, jump really far and potentially at really high levels speak all languages, barbarians can avoid traps easier (or with the as of yet unofficial Class Variant UA you can replace it for some sweet sweet expertise), eventiually rarely if ever fail skill checks involving strength and you could even use your rage to try and break open jail bars, survive falls and hazards that would kill ordinary people or smash an object to pieces (it ends very quickly but it can be done), plus their ancestral path often comes with something nice that helps in those areas of the game.
fighters get no base features that might help them do anything other than stab your opponent to death, some subclasses gain some bonus proficiencies at 3rd level and just might give you an nice but incredebly minor out of combat feature at 7th level, and that is the extent to the non combat power of most fighters.
one might argue that your feat, background, skill, and racial choices might boost your abillities outside combat, but those are the kinds of things literally every other class also has access to, for the fighter class to almost completely neglect two thirds of the games design feels wrong,
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
What do Wizards get as their base class features?
Not much, because it's in their subclasses that they shine.
Since you'll be taking a subclass any, anything added to the base class would be added to all fighter variants and some might become too strong with that addition.
yeah but the thing is every single level has to stand on its own and offer something unique and interesting for the player, every odd level the wizard gains a new level of spell and arcane recovery gets slightly stronger, and every four levels the wizard gets an abillity score increase, so the wizard only needs their subclasses to fill in the gaps at every four levels, mere subclasses is not what makes a class great, it is the cherry on top of an already great class, battle master is an fantastic subclass, and purple dragon knights can similarly be used to roleplay the fantasy of an battle commander especially with that one fighting style from the classvariants UA, but to even get to 3rd or 7th level where you get those cool features you first have to get a couple of features you might not be as interested in. Ranger has some of the best subclasses ever created in my personal oppion, but most people are still disapointed by the class.
That being said this thread has made me realize that the word i am looking for to describe this class is probably more "boring" than "bad" per se, more that they are uninteresting than weak
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
I think this statement sums it up pretty good, though I would even go as far to say you could describe it as "simple". Neither of the two would imply "bad". None of them mean ineffective.
The features themselves aren't necessarily flashy when compared to other classes, but they can compete regardless.
Personally when playing my Fighter, I just take it as a roleplaying challenge. Being descriptive can make Action Surge so much more than just "I hit it again".
Fighters will always have less options than spellcasters, but that’s by design. Martial classes typically have one focus - take Barbarians for example, as a class that even moreso streamlines the gaming experience by basically making it about GWM and Reckless Attack (with exceptions obviously).
What’s important to remember though is that while Wizards get spells, Fighters get extra feats and way more attacks. What does this mean? You better design your Fighter build wisely if you want to stay interested in your character.
A few questions you need to ask yourself
1) Action Economy: If you’re playing a Champion, make sure you take Feats that give you Bonus Actions, Reactions, or alternate Attack options that give you some versatility in combat. This could mean, Dual Wielder to get that Bonus Action attack, Shield Master to get the Bonus Action shove and Reaction bonus, Sentinel to increase the number of Reactions you can take, Martial Adept or Magic Initiate to round out some more actions, etc. It’s up to you to design the character to make it interesting! If all you take is Resilient Wisdom, GWM/SS, Tough, etc you’re going to end up bored doing the same thing every round. Try out Healer, a tremendously underused Feat that can ease a lot of pressure off the Healers in the party.
2) Fighting Options: Don’t underestimate the options you have, and don’t be afraid to ask the DM for the Combat Options in the DMG. Shove, Knock Prone, Disarm, etc - make it all count.
a) Take the majority of Fighters out there that find themselves surrounded by enemies and alone. Do they Dodge? Nope. They just keep attacking, leaving them open to getting swarmed, losing lots of HP, and complaining about critical hits. Adding Dodge to your repertoire makes a huge difference in combat and adds levels of strategy you don’t see often. 8 Orcs trying to hit a Fighter with AC 18 will probably mean eating 3 greatsword hits and 15% chance of a Crit. If he Dodges, you’ll eat 1 hit and 0.25% chance of a Crit. And guess what... with those odds some of them might try to run away, getting you a reaction shot anyways!
b) Take the average Fighter that’s 1v1 vs an Orc that they need to disengage from. Sure, you can disengage and run, but why not take your Attack action and use one attack to Shove? You get to do damage, have a chance for a Shove to knock them prone, and then you still get to run away. They’re prone, so again their chance of hitting is extremely low and plus when they get up they can’t re-engage you because they have to use half their movement just to stand back up.
3) Conserve your Fighter Actions for the right opportunity: Save Action Surge for that moment you get to levy all of your attacks on a Prone or Blind opponent - 6 attacks at advantage are bound to obliterate almost anyone.
a) Take the Arcane Archer for example - don’t waste your Shadow Arrow on the last attack of the round, when you don’t get to capitalize on the follow up attacks. Also, save your Arrows for Critical Hits, when you can turn 2d6 damage into 4d6 on top of the other effects.
b) Don’t use Indomitable unless you have a good shot of winning. If your save bonus is +1 vs a DC of 16, you have a 30% chance of success and 51% with Indom. With a bonus of +5 vs a DC of 16, you have a 50% chance of success and 75% with Indom. Maximize that ability.
Conclusion: Be smart about using those 2 extra feats you get. Use them to round out your Actions, not just ASIs or static skills. If you’re not getting full use out of Actions, Bonus Actions, and Reactions, then the amount of damage you do won’t matter because you’ll end up bored, just like the OP said.
Fighters as designed suck in comparison to all the other classes. If you are not intensely focused on making them better than the sum of their parts, or just dipping into it to spice up your main class with Action Surge, you will basically be the party's sidekick after a few levels. It is what it is.
I hoped for some improvements in Tasha's Cauldron of Everything, but nothing. Hell, Rogues now get a bonus action Advantage, just for not moving.
This, is the "master of martial combat"? LOL!
I am playing a Spear and Shield Battlemaster in my current campaign and having a blast.
The Battle Master is very versatile and the Spear being both Melee and Thrown expands the range at which I can manage the battlefield using manoeuvres.
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The previous campaigns I played in the fighters in each were exactly the same. Glaive, Polearm Master, Sentinel and Great Weapon fighting style yada yada yada.
It makes for a boring repetitive character where the superiority dice and manoeuvers exist only to add the occasion D8/D10 damage to an attack.
Second Wind.
This is for those round where you absolutely need a heal but the healer can't get to you. It is not just random temporary hitpoints. Use this ability strategically and you will come to realise it is golden.
Action Surge
Action surge really doesn't come into its own until the fighter gets three attacks and then it is amazing. Respect my restraint for not capitalising amazing.
Shield Master
If you don't have a shield and the Shield Master feat you are missing out on a lot of fun and a super ability. Shield Master is basically a free superiority dice every round. It is the 'bees knees' and the 'cat's pyjamas'.
Think about it, Attack 1, User Shield Master Bonus attack to know target prone, Attack 2+3 at advantage then action surge.
Manoeuvers
Menacing Strike and Trip Attack are the *#@# use them. They do damage even if the target makes their save and menacing strike, in particular, will force an opponent to burn up legendary saves at no cost to your damage output.
Thrown Weapons
If you use Thrown weapons particularly the spear as it works with Polearm Master the 'Thrown' ability extends your range by 20 feet.
You're welcome to your opinion, of course. But given that it's the most popular class, it's fair to say that a lot of people may disagree with you.
Of course, I accept any disagreements in this!
I like playing a fighter mostly for the roleplaying right now. I know I can never dish out as much damage, tank as effectively, or control the battlefield like my comrades. Heck I'm currently playing a Battlemaster Crossbow Expert right now and I'm trying to resist the urge to multi-class as a Rogue to inflict more damage. Fingers crossed!
Hmm, thinking about it, here are some improvements I would suggest for the base fighter:
Cheers!
I have to say that people seem to be bat shit crazy here. The fighter is one of the classes LEAST in need of an upgrade. Monk is the weakling of the group, not fighter. Tries to do a little of everything and gets good at nothing.
All the fighter classes are really good. I have never seen anyone say "My fighter is not as good as the Barbarian/Paladin/Ranger". Yes, they are different. But they are in no way weak. The base class gets the feats, the subclasses are better than most others, and most importantly the fighter is self is front loaded so people like to take a multi-class dip.
Eldritch Knights are the highest AC around - just take Shield.
BattleMaster's Maneuvers let them control their opponent via tripping, pushing disarming.
Echo knights are flat out over-powered with their ability to teleport.