Sure, I get the difference in feeling from a Ranger that feels like they can do magical attacks and beef up the damage. Don't discount that the Arcane Archer keeps increasing attacks per round as they level up, and that each of the arrows are able to be counted as magical to overcome resistances. Is it as powerful as previous versions? Maybe yes, maybe no. Is it balanced against other players in this version? I think it most definitely is.
As far as I can tell you only get two uses per rest.
“Once per turn when you fire an arrow from a shortbow or longbow as part of the Attack action, you can apply one of your Arcane Shot options to that arrow. You decide to use the option when the arrow hits a creature, unless the option doesn’t involve an attack roll. You have two uses of this ability, and you regain all expended uses of it when you finish a short or long rest.”
It seems like a broken subclass but I’m not an expert and I have not yet played as an Arcane Archer yet so I could be wrong and probably am! All I know is from what the rules specifically say you get two uses per rest similar to the Druid Wild Shape. At 15th level if you have no shots left at initiative you get one restored.
Also anybody who thinks Champion's expanded crit feature is under-powered has not played one in a well organized party. My 16th lvl half ork Champion constantly gets advantage from his allies and at 6 attacks rolls every round I crit almost every round and sometimes twice (3 is rare). Plus 2 rolls for a bonus action attack if I crit or drop an enemy.
Also anybody who thinks Champion's expanded crit feature is under-powered has not played one in a well organized party. My 16th lvl half ork Champion constantly gets advantage from his allies and at 6 attacks rolls every round I crit almost every round and sometimes twice (3 is rare). Plus 2 rolls for a bonus action attack if I crit or drop an enemy.
If you had the exact same setup as a Battle Master you'd still crit every other round. You can easily double your 6d10 per short rest to 12d10, and you get useful side effects like frightening or tripping on top of that.
The fact that you need Savage Attacks and Great Weapon Master and being level 15+ to compete is the whole problem.
Let's just agree to disagree. You will not crit anywhere as often with Battle master. You can't just discount class features and extra feats that any fighter gets. Sure I could build a crappy Champion, but why would I?
I think the biggest part to this sub class is that you can decide to use the shot after you actually hit. This guarantees extra damage in most cases and always has an extra effect. Add to this shape shooter and archery fighting style. Consider seeking arrow at third level it is possible to get 1d8 +1d6 +10 +2 proficiency bonus + dex modifier so at max that is 26 plus dex mod all with a dex save so it cancels can the -5 to hit. And that is at lvl 3
Now let's take the shadow arrow. You can activate it on a crit so you get 2d8 +4d6 + 10 +2proficient mod plus dex mod. So thats 52 plus dex mod at 3 lvl. That is an insane amount for a 3rd lvl character a 3rd lvl wizard can't do that much in a single attack.
I think it would be nice to get an extra shot at higher levels (10+) to add more options and not have to rely on short rests. I dont think it would "break" anything getting 1 more use and be something to look forward to.
Best I can come up with to use this is take sharpshooter, take -5 to hit for +10 damage and then fire piercing shot (requiring no to hit roll and hitting targets in a line, sure they can save for half but at least you feel like you are an ARCANE ARCHER. Rather than a Battlemaster with a bow who nerfed themselves to get less abilities.
If you want to play an arcane archer, and feel like you have mystic powers, try the Battle / bowmaster and just flavour it so its 'magical' rather than martial skill. Oh when you do that Arcane archer can seem redundant, no, a poor cousin maybe? Especially with that pesky extra superiority dice feat (of course you could take that as pure AA but Battlemaster just works out better more often in both options uses and feel)
Best I can come up with to use this is take sharpshooter, take -5 to hit for +10 damage and then fire piercing shot (requiring no to hit roll and hitting targets in a line, sure they can save for half but at least you feel like you are an ARCANE ARCHER. Rather than a Battlemaster with a bow who nerfed themselves to get less abilities.
The Shadow Arrow + Action Surge combo I mentioned earlier in the thread is your best bet for big Sharpshooter damage, assuming you don't have some other reliable source of advantage.
I.C. You can call it like that, but I would let it happen if for no other reasons than A) thats cool. and B) the arcane archer should benefit from it.
Yes it requires a to hit penalty, no it doesnt require that you make a to hit roll, similarly to a magic weapon that adds damage (ie flame frost or giant slayers extra damage) on a hit and according to your sciencing they then wouldnt with piercing shot as they havent hit, they skipped that part. This is not intended surely. Maybe sharpshooter /pierce wasnt intended but what I suggest is inclusive of theater of the mind and imagining how that would look cool as all get out? Nice.
Does it over power the class? No. Does this allow you to instantly destroy every enemy? No you only have two shots after all. Will it allow you to do more damage than your aforementioned combo potentially? possibly, possibly not both requiring set ups to maximise them and thats a point isnt it? Using abilities and tactics and positioning to your advantage should be encouraged and clever plans celebrated and reminisced over. Having a player choose a feat encouraging them to think about positioning / tactics? Thats a big + for me, not a minus.
Yes it requires a to hit penalty, no it doesnt require that you make a to hit roll
You can't choose to take a -5 penalty on an attack roll that doesn't exist and the bonus damage is dependent on taking the penalty. Whether it's overpowered or fun really wasn't the point. If you want to suggest that as a house rule that's fine.
I disagree, you can. It doesn't require a house rule, but its not for you, so you dont have to use it. You havent addressed the extra damage die contention or gameplay and I would like your opinion on how you feel arcane archer stacks up to battlemaster with a bow however.
Id Just like to point out on a west marches style discord server that runs sessions, you often dont take rest as the sessions are usually over quickly. So this play style which is a very popular d&d play style basically locks your Arcane Archer at 2 uses per session even higher levels. Arcane Archer as a fighter Archtype in my opinion is the mistake. Shouldve been done as a rogue or ranger.
It just needs an extra use since it refreshes on a short rest. At higher levels you get an extra one and you always have at least 1. If I recall it correctly
Id Just like to point out on a west marches style discord server that runs sessions, you often dont take rest as the sessions are usually over quickly. So this play style which is a very popular d&d play style basically locks your Arcane Archer at 2 uses per session even higher levels. Arcane Archer as a fighter Archtype in my opinion is the mistake. Shouldve been done as a rogue or ranger.
Thats my biggest issue with nearly all classes/subclasses balalnced around short rest abilities. The simple fact is that most games don't have more than 1 short rest and sometimes none. I'm in a campaign now as a Warlock and it not unusual for us to basically have one large battle per session with a long rest afterward. Short rest spell recharge is kind of sucking hard lol.
Thats a shame Jayne, The DMG has a great deal of information on recommended encounter numbers / challenge levels per day and your 'one and done' experiences are not that. Between 6 and 8 is recommended with 2 or three short rests.
Its understandably easier to plan one encounter and thats its for the day as a DM, but it doesnt challenge a party if thats all you do. Implying that you never have to save something 'in case' of emergencies or fight more than once or twice can lead to a mindset that will glorify full casters, barbarians and hybrids over monks fighters warlocks and moon druids. If you want an epic battle with the climactic villain, where are her minions? why havent they slowed you down, why have you been left with every resource available?
When you truly play through the encounters that are recommended then you will notice something else: Your all likely to die. Its true, every single hit on the party creeps you closer to the grave and there is no way around the fact you will face many more incoming damage sources in a day than you have heals. Countering this needs thoughtful consideration and teamwork, which again you require less of if you only have to win a fight and not proceed on to the next and the next. Its all about the style you like. Its unlikely you would want to play in a game that challenges you as the DMG recommends after you have repeatedly been exposed to a one and done affair, conversely if an endurance player was exposed to a 'boss fight a day' game, after the initial culture shock wore off they would probably find it amusingly easy.
For the Arcane Archer - Its odd but considering the negatives applied to the champion subclass in the forums due to battlemaster being more effective I struggle with two things:
1) If your playing a game with no shortrests, fighter action surge and second wind are once a day mechanics and theoretically the battlemaster / arcane archer should be less optimals than a champion
2) If you do have shortrests, as it stands the battlemaster can use many abilities with a missile weapon and could be considered a better mundane archer than an arcane archer.
I'm currently playing a Svirfneblin character who is Arcane Archer lvl 11, Underdark Druid lvl 4. Early on, I was worried that the two arcane shots between short rests was going to be underwhelming and insufficient, but honestly it's been totally fine, especially now that I have 3 attacks whenever I take the attack action and Curving Shot lets me re-roll one of those if I miss. Plus, as someone pointed out above, you only choose to use the Arcane Shot option once you know the attack has hit. I am always aware of the fact that I only have two of those special shots, so it makes me very selective and cautious about when I'm going to use them, but honestly that just adds a little extra challenge which is kind of fun. Our DM is currently taking us through AGAINST THE GIANTS, expanded with additional homebrewed stuff, and we've almost finished clearing out the Frost Giant rift stronghold. A few times my character's Banishing Shot made the difference between victory and TPK (total party kill) when I was able to put a big-bad-boss out of commission for a couple of turns when our whole party was running very low on hit points and/or already making death saves. I'm really enjoying playing this character.
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Sure, I get the difference in feeling from a Ranger that feels like they can do magical attacks and beef up the damage. Don't discount that the Arcane Archer keeps increasing attacks per round as they level up, and that each of the arrows are able to be counted as magical to overcome resistances. Is it as powerful as previous versions? Maybe yes, maybe no. Is it balanced against other players in this version? I think it most definitely is.
As far as I can tell you only get two uses per rest.
“Once per turn when you fire an arrow from a shortbow or longbow as part of the Attack action, you can apply one of your Arcane Shot options to that arrow. You decide to use the option when the arrow hits a creature, unless the option doesn’t involve an attack roll. You have two uses of this ability, and you regain all expended uses of it when you finish a short or long rest.”
It seems like a broken subclass but I’m not an expert and I have not yet played as an Arcane Archer yet so I could be wrong and probably am! All I know is from what the rules specifically say you get two uses per rest similar to the Druid Wild Shape. At 15th level if you have no shots left at initiative you get one restored.
Also anybody who thinks Champion's expanded crit feature is under-powered has not played one in a well organized party. My 16th lvl half ork Champion constantly gets advantage from his allies and at 6 attacks rolls every round I crit almost every round and sometimes twice (3 is rare). Plus 2 rolls for a bonus action attack if I crit or drop an enemy.
Let's just agree to disagree. You will not crit anywhere as often with Battle master. You can't just discount class features and extra feats that any fighter gets. Sure I could build a crappy Champion, but why would I?
I think the biggest part to this sub class is that you can decide to use the shot after you actually hit. This guarantees extra damage in most cases and always has an extra effect. Add to this shape shooter and archery fighting style. Consider seeking arrow at third level it is possible to get 1d8 +1d6 +10 +2 proficiency bonus + dex modifier so at max that is 26 plus dex mod all with a dex save so it cancels can the -5 to hit. And that is at lvl 3
Now let's take the shadow arrow. You can activate it on a crit so you get 2d8 +4d6 + 10 +2proficient mod plus dex mod. So thats 52 plus dex mod at 3 lvl. That is an insane amount for a 3rd lvl character a 3rd lvl wizard can't do that much in a single attack.
I think it would be nice to get an extra shot at higher levels (10+) to add more options and not have to rely on short rests. I dont think it would "break" anything getting 1 more use and be something to look forward to.
Best I can come up with to use this is take sharpshooter, take -5 to hit for +10 damage and then fire piercing shot (requiring no to hit roll and hitting targets in a line, sure they can save for half but at least you feel like you are an ARCANE ARCHER. Rather than a Battlemaster with a bow who nerfed themselves to get less abilities.
If you want to play an arcane archer, and feel like you have mystic powers, try the Battle / bowmaster and just flavour it so its 'magical' rather than martial skill. Oh when you do that Arcane archer can seem redundant, no, a poor cousin maybe? Especially with that pesky extra superiority dice feat (of course you could take that as pure AA but Battlemaster just works out better more often in both options uses and feel)
Sharpshooter's bonus damage requires taking a penalty on the attack roll and hitting. Piercing Arrow has no attack roll and doesn't result in a hit or miss. They don't work together.
The Shadow Arrow + Action Surge combo I mentioned earlier in the thread is your best bet for big Sharpshooter damage, assuming you don't have some other reliable source of advantage.
I.C. You can call it like that, but I would let it happen if for no other reasons than A) thats cool. and B) the arcane archer should benefit from it.
Yes it requires a to hit penalty, no it doesnt require that you make a to hit roll, similarly to a magic weapon that adds damage (ie flame frost or giant slayers extra damage) on a hit and according to your sciencing they then wouldnt with piercing shot as they havent hit, they skipped that part. This is not intended surely. Maybe sharpshooter /pierce wasnt intended but what I suggest is inclusive of theater of the mind and imagining how that would look cool as all get out? Nice.
Does it over power the class? No. Does this allow you to instantly destroy every enemy? No you only have two shots after all. Will it allow you to do more damage than your aforementioned combo potentially? possibly, possibly not both requiring set ups to maximise them and thats a point isnt it? Using abilities and tactics and positioning to your advantage should be encouraged and clever plans celebrated and reminisced over. Having a player choose a feat encouraging them to think about positioning / tactics? Thats a big + for me, not a minus.
You can't choose to take a -5 penalty on an attack roll that doesn't exist and the bonus damage is dependent on taking the penalty. Whether it's overpowered or fun really wasn't the point. If you want to suggest that as a house rule that's fine.
I disagree, you can. It doesn't require a house rule, but its not for you, so you dont have to use it. You havent addressed the extra damage die contention or gameplay and I would like your opinion on how you feel arcane archer stacks up to battlemaster with a bow however.
Id Just like to point out on a west marches style discord server that runs sessions, you often dont take rest as the sessions are usually over quickly. So this play style which is a very popular d&d play style basically locks your Arcane Archer at 2 uses per session even higher levels. Arcane Archer as a fighter Archtype in my opinion is the mistake. Shouldve been done as a rogue or ranger.
It just needs an extra use since it refreshes on a short rest. At higher levels you get an extra one and you always have at least 1. If I recall it correctly
Let’s not forget that if you pair Arcane Archer with rogue, hit with shadow arrow, that’s sneak attack for everyone who has sneak attack.
Thats my biggest issue with nearly all classes/subclasses balalnced around short rest abilities. The simple fact is that most games don't have more than 1 short rest and sometimes none. I'm in a campaign now as a Warlock and it not unusual for us to basically have one large battle per session with a long rest afterward. Short rest spell recharge is kind of sucking hard lol.
and in other games long rest spell recharge is awful and those warlocks keep on going
Perhaps. But I don't think I have ever heard of any game with too many short rests between long rests to be honest.
Thats a shame Jayne, The DMG has a great deal of information on recommended encounter numbers / challenge levels per day and your 'one and done' experiences are not that. Between 6 and 8 is recommended with 2 or three short rests.
Its understandably easier to plan one encounter and thats its for the day as a DM, but it doesnt challenge a party if thats all you do. Implying that you never have to save something 'in case' of emergencies or fight more than once or twice can lead to a mindset that will glorify full casters, barbarians and hybrids over monks fighters warlocks and moon druids. If you want an epic battle with the climactic villain, where are her minions? why havent they slowed you down, why have you been left with every resource available?
When you truly play through the encounters that are recommended then you will notice something else: Your all likely to die. Its true, every single hit on the party creeps you closer to the grave and there is no way around the fact you will face many more incoming damage sources in a day than you have heals. Countering this needs thoughtful consideration and teamwork, which again you require less of if you only have to win a fight and not proceed on to the next and the next. Its all about the style you like. Its unlikely you would want to play in a game that challenges you as the DMG recommends after you have repeatedly been exposed to a one and done affair, conversely if an endurance player was exposed to a 'boss fight a day' game, after the initial culture shock wore off they would probably find it amusingly easy.
For the Arcane Archer - Its odd but considering the negatives applied to the champion subclass in the forums due to battlemaster being more effective I struggle with two things:
1) If your playing a game with no shortrests, fighter action surge and second wind are once a day mechanics and theoretically the battlemaster / arcane archer should be less optimals than a champion
2) If you do have shortrests, as it stands the battlemaster can use many abilities with a missile weapon and could be considered a better mundane archer than an arcane archer.
I'm currently playing a Svirfneblin character who is Arcane Archer lvl 11, Underdark Druid lvl 4. Early on, I was worried that the two arcane shots between short rests was going to be underwhelming and insufficient, but honestly it's been totally fine, especially now that I have 3 attacks whenever I take the attack action and Curving Shot lets me re-roll one of those if I miss. Plus, as someone pointed out above, you only choose to use the Arcane Shot option once you know the attack has hit. I am always aware of the fact that I only have two of those special shots, so it makes me very selective and cautious about when I'm going to use them, but honestly that just adds a little extra challenge which is kind of fun. Our DM is currently taking us through AGAINST THE GIANTS, expanded with additional homebrewed stuff, and we've almost finished clearing out the Frost Giant rift stronghold. A few times my character's Banishing Shot made the difference between victory and TPK (total party kill) when I was able to put a big-bad-boss out of commission for a couple of turns when our whole party was running very low on hit points and/or already making death saves. I'm really enjoying playing this character.
Author of Fellozial's Ultimate Guide to Poison, The Primal Gith, and other forthcoming titles at DMs Guild