I need to ask, what about the Martial Adept feat? Sure many of the maneuvers require a weapon, but there are good options, especially if you can convince the DM to count your fists a weapons for the sake of the maneuvers. Feinting Attack and Perry come to mind.
This means that Savage Attacker does allow a reroll of the damage.
Not that it matters, but Savage Attacker requires a weapon: "...you can reroll the weapon's damage dice..."
You can't reroll a weapon's damage dice if you're not using a weapon.
But that's really besides the point since 1) you can use it when you attack with a monk weapon and 2) it's a terrible feat, no matter what your class is.
I need to ask, what about the Martial Adept feat? Sure many of the maneuvers require a weapon, but there are good options, especially if you can convince the DM to count your fists a weapons for the sake of the maneuvers. Feinting Attack and Perry come to mind.
Unarmed strikes aren't weapons, full stop.
That aside, none of the Battle Master maneuvers require a weapon. Many require a weapon attack, and unarmed strikes count as melee weapon attacks.
This means that Savage Attacker does allow a reroll of the damage.
Not that it matters, but Savage Attacker requires a weapon: "...you can reroll the weapon's damage dice..."
You can't reroll a weapon's damage dice if you're not using a weapon.
But that's really besides the point since 1) you can use it when you attack with a monk weapon and 2) it's a terrible feat, no matter what your class is.
I need to ask, what about the Martial Adept feat? Sure many of the maneuvers require a weapon, but there are good options, especially if you can convince the DM to count your fists a weapons for the sake of the maneuvers. Feinting Attack and Perry come to mind.
Unarmed strikes aren't weapons, full stop.
That aside, none of the Battle Master maneuvers require a weapon. Many require a weapon attack, and unarmed strikes count as melee weapon attacks.
The only subclass that bad in the PH is the Champion Fighter.
What? What's wrong with it? You get more crits, you get a bonus Fighting Style, and, eventually, you get the ability to regenerate.
It lacks raw power and a niche to fill.
Improved Critical sounds good, but it's less than a 5% increase in damage. Without getting too math-heavy, if your crits do double damage you're getting a 5% increase in damage. In reality it's less because you don't double the constants in your damage rolls. If you get into 8 fights in one day and each fight lasts a full 5 rounds (which is a bit optimistic), you're looking at 40 hits with a greatsword or 80 hits with light weapons for an extra 4d6 due to crits, but you don't get to choose when.
On the other hand a Battlemaster gets 4d8 per short rest, so 12d8 throughout a normal day. No matter when they use those dice and on what, the Battlemaster will outdamage the Champion by a large margin. But the Battlemaster also gets to decide when to deal their extra damage, so a smart Battlemaster can burn dice on harder monsters to prevent damage, and can choose to spend those dice on crits. And that's before getting into all the other useful things Superiority Dice can do that I mentioned in the Tanking in 5e? thread. The gap never closes.
At 7th level, the Champion gets Remarkable Athlete, which is neat, but the value it provides at that level is questionable. By then spellcasters have 4th level spells and can make people fly, move twice as fast, get advantage on ability checks of their choice, breathe underwater, and all sorts of crazy things. Champions aren't even getting better at the skills they're good at, they're just getting less bad at the ones they're not good at. Meanwhile Battlemasters get Know Your Enemy and now have 5 maneuvers and 15d10 to spend (and again, they can spend one or two on crits). With Extra Attack the Champion is only up to 80 hits with a greatsword or 120 hits with light weapons for 8d6 or 6d6 extra damage from extra crits.
At 10th level, Champions get another Fighting Style. That's cool, but offensive Fighting Styles don't stack, and Armor fighting style isn't exactly a game-changer. The best case scenario here is having both Protection and Dueling at the same time. Meanwhile Battlemasters are getting two more maneuvers and their d8s become d10s. That's 7 maneuvers and 15d10 before crits.
At 15th level, Champion gets another 5% crit rate. Battlemasters are now up to 9 maneuvers and 18d10. The Champion's getting another 5% increase in crit chance. With Extra Attack 2, now we're looking at 120 greatsword hits with 12 more crits than the Battlemaster for 24d6 additional damage in crits. That's 84 extra damage to the Battlemaster's 99. The Champion would need Great Weapon Master and use a Bonus Action every other turn to break even. And that's already assuming we're getting 40 turns of combat every time and never using your action on anything but attacking and there's always live enemies within reach. But that's still not enough because the Battlemaster now also gets a free Superiority Die every time they start a fight without one now.
At 18th level, the Champion gets Survivor, which is great! And the Battlemaster now has 18d12.
So, again, the Battlemaster's always going to do more raw damage, gets to decide when to use it and brings a lot more utility to the table (e.g. can enable additional Sneak Attacks with Commander's Strike). The damage boost from Improved/Superior Critical is too little, and Remarkable Athlete and Additional Fighting Style don't specialize the Fighter further. The Champion has to wait until level 18 for a compelling, archetype-defining feature.
If instead/in addition to trying to increase damage through crits they had given the Champion a better Second Wind (which gets worse as you level), it could've carved a niche for itself as the subclass with the most staying power. They could've also improved Superior Critical a lot without extending the crit range too much or having a lot of rerolls by just letting them maximize their damage rolls on crits. But you'd still need the other fixes, because level 15 is still too long of a wait.
I feel like it's true strength is its simplicity. It's a good class for someone who wants to learn how to play. There aren't any complex class mechanics to worry about, no spell slots to manage, and so it frees up the novice to learn the game itself. Later on they'll find better options, but for someone who doesn't know the game, it's better to have something basic. It's what I started as, and now that I understand the game, I haven't played it since. However, I was able to learn it because the class was simple.
I don't disagree. It would just be nice if the simple option weren't considerably weaker than the other options. e.g. life cleric, evocation wizard, way of the open hand monk, and hunter rangers are also the most straightforward subclasses within their class, but they're still powerful.
The fact that Fighters don't pick a subclass until 3rd level is also kind of a strike against the Champion because it means the player has 2 levels to learn the ropes anyways.
Those Dice numbers for battle master are super misleading. you get 1d8 per attack until level 10. then 1d10 until level 18 when it turns to 1d12. So at level 20 you get an extra 4d12 per turn.
Im not knocking it but to even put 18d12 in a sentence is misleading.
The main problem with the champion is that its just....meh. There is no flair to it. Its just boring.
This means that Savage Attacker does allow a reroll of the damage.
Not that it matters, but Savage Attacker requires a weapon: "...you can reroll the weapon's damage dice..."
You can't reroll a weapon's damage dice if you're not using a weapon.
But that's really besides the point since 1) you can use it when you attack with a monk weapon and 2) it's a terrible feat, no matter what your class is.
I need to ask, what about the Martial Adept feat? Sure many of the maneuvers require a weapon, but there are good options, especially if you can convince the DM to count your fists a weapons for the sake of the maneuvers. Feinting Attack and Perry come to mind.
Unarmed strikes aren't weapons, full stop.
That aside, none of the Battle Master maneuvers require a weapon. Many require a weapon attack, and unarmed strikes count as melee weapon attacks.
Wait, why is it bad? My monks reaction could be enhanced with Riposte and Perry, one to punish and the other rob midigate respectively. Am i missing something?
I would say that one great option for Kensai is using a whip. It does same damage as your Unarmed Strike at 3, but basically gives you an Unarmed Strike with reach, which can be huge. Or, you can use a Longsword, and be a Monk who does 1d10 damage at 3rd, and if you combo that with a Longbow ( 1d8 + 1d4), you can pump out tons of damage really early on. And one quirky option is using a Blowgun, which normally does 1 point of damage; by using Kensai, you can kill with a single needle, which is really cool.
The only subclass that bad in the PH is the Champion Fighter.
What? What's wrong with it? You get more crits, you get a bonus Fighting Style, and, eventually, you get the ability to regenerate.
It lacks raw power and a niche to fill.
Improved Critical sounds good, but it's less than a 5% increase in damage. Without getting too math-heavy, if your crits do double damage you're getting a 5% increase in damage. In reality it's less because you don't double the constants in your damage rolls. If you get into 8 fights in one day and each fight lasts a full 5 rounds (which is a bit optimistic), you're looking at 40 hits with a greatsword or 80 hits with light weapons for an extra 4d6 due to crits, but you don't get to choose when.
On the other hand a Battlemaster gets 4d8 per short rest, so 12d8 throughout a normal day. No matter when they use those dice and on what, the Battlemaster will outdamage the Champion by a large margin. But the Battlemaster also gets to decide when to deal their extra damage, so a smart Battlemaster can burn dice on harder monsters to prevent damage, and can choose to spend those dice on crits. And that's before getting into all the other useful things Superiority Dice can do that I mentioned in the Tanking in 5e? thread. The gap never closes.
At 7th level, the Champion gets Remarkable Athlete, which is neat, but the value it provides at that level is questionable. By then spellcasters have 4th level spells and can make people fly, move twice as fast, get advantage on ability checks of their choice, breathe underwater, and all sorts of crazy things. Champions aren't even getting better at the skills they're good at, they're just getting less bad at the ones they're not good at. Meanwhile Battlemasters get Know Your Enemy and now have 5 maneuvers and 15d10 to spend (and again, they can spend one or two on crits). With Extra Attack the Champion is only up to 80 hits with a greatsword or 120 hits with light weapons for 8d6 or 6d6 extra damage from extra crits.
At 10th level, Champions get another Fighting Style. That's cool, but offensive Fighting Styles don't stack, and Armor fighting style isn't exactly a game-changer. The best case scenario here is having both Protection and Dueling at the same time. Meanwhile Battlemasters are getting two more maneuvers and their d8s become d10s. That's 7 maneuvers and 15d10 before crits.
At 15th level, Champion gets another 5% crit rate. Battlemasters are now up to 9 maneuvers and 18d10. The Champion's getting another 5% increase in crit chance. With Extra Attack 2, now we're looking at 120 greatsword hits with 12 more crits than the Battlemaster for 24d6 additional damage in crits. That's 84 extra damage to the Battlemaster's 99. The Champion would need Great Weapon Master and use a Bonus Action every other turn to break even. And that's already assuming we're getting 40 turns of combat every time and never using your action on anything but attacking and there's always live enemies within reach. But that's still not enough because the Battlemaster now also gets a free Superiority Die every time they start a fight without one now.
At 18th level, the Champion gets Survivor, which is great! And the Battlemaster now has 18d12.
So, again, the Battlemaster's always going to do more raw damage, gets to decide when to use it and brings a lot more utility to the table (e.g. can enable additional Sneak Attacks with Commander's Strike). The damage boost from Improved/Superior Critical is too little, and Remarkable Athlete and Additional Fighting Style don't specialize the Fighter further. The Champion has to wait until level 18 for a compelling, archetype-defining feature.
If instead/in addition to trying to increase damage through crits they had given the Champion a better Second Wind (which gets worse as you level), it could've carved a niche for itself as the subclass with the most staying power. They could've also improved Superior Critical a lot without extending the crit range too much or having a lot of rerolls by just letting them maximize their damage rolls on crits. But you'd still need the other fixes, because level 15 is still too long of a wait.
You can also get lucky with your crits. Maybe take the lucky feat so you crit more often. Plan ahead, spend proficiencies on other things besides strength and dex and now your remarkable athlete is getting max benefit as well as improving initiative. The second fighting style could be increasing your armor by 1. Thats something.
Your complaint doesn't sound like the champion is bad, rather the champion is comparatively bad to the battlemaster.
Question if I flip a coin and it lands heads 100 times in a row, does the 101 roll have 50/50 odds to be heads or is it .5^100
In short: Skirmishers are incredible for it. +5 move, +Dex, Stealth move during long travel and if you happen to multiclass into something with light armour, you get a superior armour calculation - Dex + Prof + 1, which goes up with level and reduces MAD significantly.
This is on top of the whole 'no eating, no breathing, immune to disease, poison resistance and not exactly sleeping' thing that all warforged get.
"Open Hand Technique : This is why you are way of the open hand, the ability to literally knock enemies around. Remember to knock them prone first to get advantage on your other melee attacks. Extra funny the bigger the thing you trip is."
Doesn't this only apply to Flurry of Blows attacks, which must be made after your Action? So at most you will knock them prone on first FOB attack and get advantage for 1 attack that turn. Am I missing something? Doesn't seem so great without party synergies.
I need to ask, what about the Martial Adept feat? Sure many of the maneuvers require a weapon, but there are good options, especially if you can convince the DM to count your fists a weapons for the sake of the maneuvers. Feinting Attack and Perry come to mind.
Not that it matters, but Savage Attacker requires a weapon: "...you can reroll the weapon's damage dice..."
You can't reroll a weapon's damage dice if you're not using a weapon.
But that's really besides the point since 1) you can use it when you attack with a monk weapon and 2) it's a terrible feat, no matter what your class is.
Unarmed strikes aren't weapons, full stop.
That aside, none of the Battle Master maneuvers require a weapon. Many require a weapon attack, and unarmed strikes count as melee weapon attacks.
Nice, that means that I can probably use Reposte!
Interesting...
Thanks for the reply, that helped!
I feel like it's true strength is its simplicity. It's a good class for someone who wants to learn how to play. There aren't any complex class mechanics to worry about, no spell slots to manage, and so it frees up the novice to learn the game itself. Later on they'll find better options, but for someone who doesn't know the game, it's better to have something basic. It's what I started as, and now that I understand the game, I haven't played it since. However, I was able to learn it because the class was simple.
I don't disagree. It would just be nice if the simple option weren't considerably weaker than the other options. e.g. life cleric, evocation wizard, way of the open hand monk, and hunter rangers are also the most straightforward subclasses within their class, but they're still powerful.
The fact that Fighters don't pick a subclass until 3rd level is also kind of a strike against the Champion because it means the player has 2 levels to learn the ropes anyways.
Those Dice numbers for battle master are super misleading. you get 1d8 per attack until level 10. then 1d10 until level 18 when it turns to 1d12. So at level 20 you get an extra 4d12 per turn.
Im not knocking it but to even put 18d12 in a sentence is misleading.
The main problem with the champion is that its just....meh. There is no flair to it. Its just boring.
They're not. I was very clear about those dice being their budget for the day.
Wait, why is it bad? My monks reaction could be enhanced with Riposte and Perry, one to punish and the other rob midigate respectively. Am i missing something?
as im just rolling up a monk for my next character, this has been super useful
*cough* Warforged Skirmisher *cough*
I would say that one great option for Kensai is using a whip. It does same damage as your Unarmed Strike at 3, but basically gives you an Unarmed Strike with reach, which can be huge. Or, you can use a Longsword, and be a Monk who does 1d10 damage at 3rd, and if you combo that with a Longbow ( 1d8 + 1d4), you can pump out tons of damage really early on. And one quirky option is using a Blowgun, which normally does 1 point of damage; by using Kensai, you can kill with a single needle, which is really cool.
blowgun kensei just blew my mind!
Jesus Saves!... Everyone else takes damage.
Bracers of defense is a must-have monk item. While not wearing armor, you get a +2 to AC, meaning you can get to 22.
Oh absolutely, especially if if you can flavor it to look like a pair of cloth raps!
You can also get lucky with your crits. Maybe take the lucky feat so you crit more often. Plan ahead, spend proficiencies on other things besides strength and dex and now your remarkable athlete is getting max benefit as well as improving initiative. The second fighting style could be increasing your armor by 1. Thats something.
Your complaint doesn't sound like the champion is bad, rather the champion is comparatively bad to the battlemaster.
Question if I flip a coin and it lands heads 100 times in a row, does the 101 roll have 50/50 odds to be heads or is it .5^100
But how good would any of the warforged be?
In short: Skirmishers are incredible for it. +5 move, +Dex, Stealth move during long travel and if you happen to multiclass into something with light armour, you get a superior armour calculation - Dex + Prof + 1, which goes up with level and reduces MAD significantly.
This is on top of the whole 'no eating, no breathing, immune to disease, poison resistance and not exactly sleeping' thing that all warforged get.
thank you very usefull info, helped make my monk cooler
"Open Hand Technique : This is why you are way of the open hand, the ability to literally knock enemies around. Remember to knock them prone first to get advantage on your other melee attacks. Extra funny the bigger the thing you trip is."
Doesn't this only apply to Flurry of Blows attacks, which must be made after your Action? So at most you will knock them prone on first FOB attack and get advantage for 1 attack that turn. Am I missing something? Doesn't seem so great without party synergies.