I have been playing D&D on and off since the 1980s and have played every edition (although I was more off than on during 3 and 3.5). I am curious to learn any strategies that have been effective in controlling monster aggo/behavior in 5e. My group is about 7th level now and would like to begin using some more advanced tactics that allow group members to emphasize their strengths. We have a good mix of classes to supply damage, healing, etc... We also have a "sword and board" Paladin and a melee Ranger in half-plate to stand up front and (theoretically) keep the attention of the enemy. The issue seems to be the ability to tank (i.e., focusing and holding the attention of our foes), so we can execute a plan, rather than merely reacting to our opponents round after round. The Sentinel feat seems like the best bet, but, it is pretty weak. Are there better approaches to " force taunt" and hold the attention of the enemy, at least for a round or two? It seems like this was possible in 4e. I am not suggesting that "tanks" in 5e should be able to lock down aggro like in certain video games, but, it seems like the ability to shape the tactics of an encounter is negligible at the moment - thus, the game feels like a round by round reaction to what the DM decides the monsters are doing. Are skills like Intimidate or Persuasion useful in influencing enemy action in combat? Are there other Feats that are useful? Or, perhaps a foundation of the current game is reacting rather than planning?
There is an optional rule in the DMG for marking, grants advantage on Opportunity Attacks against a creature you have marked (ala hit in melee combat). But in general the best option is to put your tank between the enemies and you, and then punish the enemy if they provoke that attack of opportunity. Remember to utilize choke points, and the environment to your advantage. Have squishies back into corners and put yourself in front of them, that way there is no room for the baddies to flank or get to them without you also being able to get to them.
5th ed moved away from having aggro mechanics, made the game feel too much like a video game, and less like a tabletop rpg.
Tanking in 5e is (and should be imo) less about "holding aggro" and more about putting enemies at a serious disadvantage if they try to harm your allies. The most basic part of this is to make sure you are engaging (statnding next to) enemies you don't want to attack your allies. If the enemy is melee, they will suffer an opportunity attack if they leave your reach, and if they are ranged they will be firing at disadvantage if they stay within your reach.
On top of that, you also can use the environment to your advantage. Stand in doorways or other 5ft choke points. Get your squishy allies to stand more than 30ft (usually) away from you to unincentivize enemies from wasting more than a turn's worth of movement chasing them.
Finally, there are lots of spells and abilities that help enable tanking. Stuff like Compelled Duel, reducing enemy movement speed, grappling, shoving, the sentinel feat, etc etc There are many ways to force an enemy into a position where they have a lot harder time attacking squishy back-line targets.
Tanking in 5e is (and should be imo) less about "holding aggro" and more about putting enemies at a serious disadvantage if they try to harm your allies. The most basic part of this is to make sure you are engaging (statnding next to) enemies you don't want to attack your allies. If the enemy is melee, they will suffer an opportunity attack if they leave your reach, and if they are ranged they will be firing at disadvantage if they stay within your reach.
On top of that, you also can use the environment to your advantage. Stand in doorways or other 5ft choke points. Get your squishy allies to stand more than 30ft (usually) away from you to unincentivize enemies from wasting more than a turn's worth of movement chasing them.
Finally, there are lots of spells and abilities that help enable tanking. Stuff like Compelled Duel, reducing enemy movement speed, grappling, shoving, the sentinel feat, etc etc There are many ways to force an enemy into a position where they have a lot harder time attacking squishy back-line targets.
Also, feats such as Spell Sniper help your ranged casters stand further away and ignore any cover that the melee characters might be providing your enemy.
It's also sometimes helpful to make yourself a juicy target, such as with the Barbarian's Reckless Attack. While dumb enemies might attack whomever is closest, smart foes will pick softer targets than the full plate sword-and-board Fighter.
Menacing Attack maneuver to inflict frightened on the enemy.
Provide a way for allies to get out of melee range without wasting an action. A smart monster will gladly go after a wizard even if it means taking an opportunity attack.
Disarm the enemy.
Disarming Attack maneuver.
Optional DMG rule for disarming.
Blinded prevents opportunity attacks. A well-placed Fog Cloud can do this.
Minor Illusion can also be used to create a 5 by 5 wall between your ally and the enemy, blocking the enemy's vision.
Distracting Strike is like using Help as part of an attack.
Use the Commander's Strike maneuver to give an ally an attack using their reaction. Bonus points if it's a Rogue.
Barbarian's Wolf Totem.
Magic Stone is an often-overlooked cantrip. It's a magic attack you can give to your friends and Rogues can Sneak Attack with it if they use a Sling. This is great for working around resistance/immunity to non-magical attacks.
Dissonant Whispers is great for forcing opportunity attacks. The Rogue will love you.
Blade Ward (especially if you can still make an attack with Action Surge, Haste or War Magic)
Rage (Barbarian level 1)
Uncanny Dodge (if you're a Swashbuckler with 1 level in Fighter)
Wild Shape (if you're a Circle of the Moon Druid).
Most of these are feats, can be gotten through a feat or 1 level of multiclassing (Rage, Fighting Style). Martial Adept gives Battlemaster maneuvers; Magic Initiate and Spell Sniper give cantrips; Magic Initiate gives one casting of a 1st level spell.
I can't even begin to tell you how effective the group's fighter is with Sentinel for tanking. "I'm gonna go kill the wizard." Denied, stay here and take what's coming to you!
I can't even begin to tell you how effective the group's fighter is with Sentinel for tanking. "I'm gonna go kill the wizard." Denied, stay here and take what's coming to you!
It's also excellent for Paladins and Rogues, because both classes can deal unusually high damage with opportunity attacks. It's extra nice for Rogues, because Sneak Attack isn't a limited resource, and it puts the monster in a lose-lose situation. Either they attack someone else and give the Rogue a second Sneak Attack that round, or they attack the Rogue and the Rogue halves the damage with Uncanny Dodge if they're hit. (If the Rogue also happens to have the Riposte maneuver, the monster also risks giving the Rogue an attack if they attack the Rogue and miss.) However that doesn't work if someone else has Sentinel and the monster attacks them.
Battlemaster Fighters specifically do make really good use of Sentinel with Precision Attack though.
Well, sneak attack is limited to one a turn, but you're right that it's still a pretty effective thing for the right kind of rogue too. That uncanny dodge really would help make a counter far less effective.
Well, sneak attack is limited to one a turn, but you're right that it's still a pretty effective thing for the right kind of rogue too. That uncanny dodge really would help make a counter far less effective.
Sneak Attack is 1/turn, not 1/round.
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Oh yeah, they're not very likely moving away on your turn unless they held action to move when the dangerous rogue gets within 5 feet, are they, so it would be THEIR turn.
So, with that you could use your reaction to get a second one a round. Neat.
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Compelled duel, in my opinion, is situational. Locking down an enemy while the other party members focus on the small-fry, absolutely a good strategy. The issue with Compelled Duel lies in if it is the enemy that needs to have focus fire centered on it with the whole party attacking it as compelled duel will fizzle and waste a spell slot:
"You attempt to compel a creature into a duel. One creature that you can see within range must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, the creature is drawn to you, compelled by your divine demand. For the duration, it has disadvantage on attack rolls against creatures other than you, and must make a Wisdom saving throw each time it attempts to move to a space that is more than 30 feet away from you; if it succeeds on this saving throw, this spell doesn’t restrict the target’s movement for that turn.
The spell ends if you attack any other creature, if you cast a spell that targets a hostile creature other than the target, if a creature friendly to you damages the target or casts a harmful spell on it, or if you end your turn more than 30 feet away from the target."
~P. 224 of The Players Handbook
If one wishes to get creative call the Big Bad out for a 1v1 granted you are at a high enough level(and if you want to multi class Sorcerer/paladin you can quicken your spell if they pass the check by means of dice or legendary action) and activate this spell while the party sets up either by calling out the minions or by readying an action to get the jump on the BBG
Public Mod Note
(MellieDM):
Please do not revive old discussions from 2017 as per our Thread Necromancy rules. We would invite you to open a new discussion to engage our present 2020 community!
Currently I am playing a level 8 Eldritch Knight Fighter and I must say I like the subclass though I thing the E.K. is better at soaking than dishing out high powered spell attacks such as the wizard or sorcerer it makes up in damage soaking and aggro control.
I am not building Drenior (E.K. Fighter) up for a power build but am focusing on the character roleplay in itself where when he was a young naive general he led his men and lover into death at the hands of demons, including the woman he loved and was going to propose watching her get violated then slaughtered mercilessly (with the character flaw being that he despises anything demonic going as far as pinning a small friendly imp to a wall and almost using the Javelin to turn him into a Shish-Kebab but was stopped and the while time had no sleep getting a level of exhaustion but keeping his eyes fixed on the Imp with intent to kill. Drenior also has PTSD as our Dragonborn Monk was being enveloped by a shambling mound and as Drenior didn't know that pushing him into the river would stop the mound he did the thing he would do, grapple the mound and try to hold it at bay) planning to eventually leave the army and raise a family but for 20 years he roamed the forgotten realms being a sell-sword and training his mind and body while also studying the Arcane after experiencing the Tiefling Draconic Sorcerer light everything up with fireballs and Hellish Rebuke and so he is honing his magic abilities.
I utilize the Shield Master feat, Shield spell, Blur spell and Mirror Image spell as a means to keep me going in fights and if Drenior is not sure of a creature he will take his action doing a history check if anything about it seems familiar and if not he will do what he knows and hold it off, going as far as to try to shove a giant size creature with his shield master feat even though he physically can't due to it being 2 sizes larger.
It depends mostly on your DM. If you are fighting in wide, open areas without choke points and the DM wants to ignore the tanks, the monsters can absolutely get around them and there is nothing the tanks can do about that.
Compared to older editions the tanking toolkit is very limited in 5e. You have Sentinel, which may or may not stop one enemy, several feats that add disadvantage if they ignore you and a few ways to knock your enemies prone which has close to no effect since standing up doesn't trigger an AOO anymore.
The best way to control the battlefield to allow for tactics is actually using spells like Hideous Laughter, Hold Person, Phantasmal Force, Silent Image, Fear, etc. to either take enemies out of the fight and focus fire the ones that remain or create artificial choke points via illusion... the latter again depends massively on the DM being cooperative instead of just ignoring the illusion because "the monsters are smart".
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Hi Fellow Adventurers,
I have been playing D&D on and off since the 1980s and have played every edition (although I was more off than on during 3 and 3.5). I am curious to learn any strategies that have been effective in controlling monster aggo/behavior in 5e. My group is about 7th level now and would like to begin using some more advanced tactics that allow group members to emphasize their strengths. We have a good mix of classes to supply damage, healing, etc... We also have a "sword and board" Paladin and a melee Ranger in half-plate to stand up front and (theoretically) keep the attention of the enemy. The issue seems to be the ability to tank (i.e., focusing and holding the attention of our foes), so we can execute a plan, rather than merely reacting to our opponents round after round. The Sentinel feat seems like the best bet, but, it is pretty weak. Are there better approaches to " force taunt" and hold the attention of the enemy, at least for a round or two? It seems like this was possible in 4e. I am not suggesting that "tanks" in 5e should be able to lock down aggro like in certain video games, but, it seems like the ability to shape the tactics of an encounter is negligible at the moment - thus, the game feels like a round by round reaction to what the DM decides the monsters are doing. Are skills like Intimidate or Persuasion useful in influencing enemy action in combat? Are there other Feats that are useful? Or, perhaps a foundation of the current game is reacting rather than planning?
There is an optional rule in the DMG for marking, grants advantage on Opportunity Attacks against a creature you have marked (ala hit in melee combat). But in general the best option is to put your tank between the enemies and you, and then punish the enemy if they provoke that attack of opportunity. Remember to utilize choke points, and the environment to your advantage. Have squishies back into corners and put yourself in front of them, that way there is no room for the baddies to flank or get to them without you also being able to get to them.
5th ed moved away from having aggro mechanics, made the game feel too much like a video game, and less like a tabletop rpg.
Paladin should know Compelled Duel spell
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Tanking in 5e is (and should be imo) less about "holding aggro" and more about putting enemies at a serious disadvantage if they try to harm your allies. The most basic part of this is to make sure you are engaging (statnding next to) enemies you don't want to attack your allies. If the enemy is melee, they will suffer an opportunity attack if they leave your reach, and if they are ranged they will be firing at disadvantage if they stay within your reach.
On top of that, you also can use the environment to your advantage. Stand in doorways or other 5ft choke points. Get your squishy allies to stand more than 30ft (usually) away from you to unincentivize enemies from wasting more than a turn's worth of movement chasing them.
Finally, there are lots of spells and abilities that help enable tanking. Stuff like Compelled Duel, reducing enemy movement speed, grappling, shoving, the sentinel feat, etc etc There are many ways to force an enemy into a position where they have a lot harder time attacking squishy back-line targets.
It's also sometimes helpful to make yourself a juicy target, such as with the Barbarian's Reckless Attack. While dumb enemies might attack whomever is closest, smart foes will pick softer targets than the full plate sword-and-board Fighter.
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile.
Ways to contribute as a tank:
Most of these are feats, can be gotten through a feat or 1 level of multiclassing (Rage, Fighting Style). Martial Adept gives Battlemaster maneuvers; Magic Initiate and Spell Sniper give cantrips; Magic Initiate gives one casting of a 1st level spell.
All the ones I'm aware of:
Example: [ magicitem]sunblade[/ magicitem] (Without spaces within the [ ] brackets.)
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I can't even begin to tell you how effective the group's fighter is with Sentinel for tanking. "I'm gonna go kill the wizard." Denied, stay here and take what's coming to you!
Well, sneak attack is limited to one a turn, but you're right that it's still a pretty effective thing for the right kind of rogue too. That uncanny dodge really would help make a counter far less effective.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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Oh yeah, they're not very likely moving away on your turn unless they held action to move when the dangerous rogue gets within 5 feet, are they, so it would be THEIR turn.
So, with that you could use your reaction to get a second one a round. Neat.
Compelled duel, in my opinion, is situational. Locking down an enemy while the other party members focus on the small-fry, absolutely a good strategy. The issue with Compelled Duel lies in if it is the enemy that needs to have focus fire centered on it with the whole party attacking it as compelled duel will fizzle and waste a spell slot:
"You attempt to compel a creature into a duel.
One creature that you can see within range must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, the creature is drawn to you, compelled by your divine demand. For the duration, it has disadvantage on attack rolls against creatures other than you, and must make a Wisdom saving throw each time it attempts to move to a space that is more than 30 feet away from you; if it succeeds on this saving throw, this spell doesn’t restrict the target’s movement for that turn.
The spell ends if you attack any other creature, if you cast a spell that targets a hostile creature other than the target, if a creature friendly to you damages the target or casts a harmful spell on it, or if you end your turn more than 30 feet away from the target."
~P. 224 of The Players Handbook
If one wishes to get creative call the Big Bad out for a 1v1 granted you are at a high enough level(and if you want to multi class Sorcerer/paladin you can quicken your spell if they pass the check by means of dice or legendary action) and activate this spell while the party sets up either by calling out the minions or by readying an action to get the jump on the BBG
Currently I am playing a level 8 Eldritch Knight Fighter and I must say I like the subclass though I thing the E.K. is better at soaking than dishing out high powered spell attacks such as the wizard or sorcerer it makes up in damage soaking and aggro control.
I am not building Drenior (E.K. Fighter) up for a power build but am focusing on the character roleplay in itself where when he was a young naive general he led his men and lover into death at the hands of demons, including the woman he loved and was going to propose watching her get violated then slaughtered mercilessly (with the character flaw being that he despises anything demonic going as far as pinning a small friendly imp to a wall and almost using the Javelin to turn him into a Shish-Kebab but was stopped and the while time had no sleep getting a level of exhaustion but keeping his eyes fixed on the Imp with intent to kill. Drenior also has PTSD as our Dragonborn Monk was being enveloped by a shambling mound and as Drenior didn't know that pushing him into the river would stop the mound he did the thing he would do, grapple the mound and try to hold it at bay) planning to eventually leave the army and raise a family but for 20 years he roamed the forgotten realms being a sell-sword and training his mind and body while also studying the Arcane after experiencing the Tiefling Draconic Sorcerer light everything up with fireballs and Hellish Rebuke and so he is honing his magic abilities.
I utilize the Shield Master feat, Shield spell, Blur spell and Mirror Image spell as a means to keep me going in fights and if Drenior is not sure of a creature he will take his action doing a history check if anything about it seems familiar and if not he will do what he knows and hold it off, going as far as to try to shove a giant size creature with his shield master feat even though he physically can't due to it being 2 sizes larger.
It depends mostly on your DM. If you are fighting in wide, open areas without choke points and the DM wants to ignore the tanks, the monsters can absolutely get around them and there is nothing the tanks can do about that.
Compared to older editions the tanking toolkit is very limited in 5e. You have Sentinel, which may or may not stop one enemy, several feats that add disadvantage if they ignore you and a few ways to knock your enemies prone which has close to no effect since standing up doesn't trigger an AOO anymore.
The best way to control the battlefield to allow for tactics is actually using spells like Hideous Laughter, Hold Person, Phantasmal Force, Silent Image, Fear, etc. to either take enemies out of the fight and focus fire the ones that remain or create artificial choke points via illusion... the latter again depends massively on the DM being cooperative instead of just ignoring the illusion because "the monsters are smart".