Have just entered DND 5E after a ~30 year hiatus from AD&D. Pretty jazzed about it as I will not only play, but am looking to take up the DM mantle for the first time.
Have entered an existing campaign as a Shadow Monk 3 / Moon Druid 2....likely moving toward Monk 14/Druid 6 should I get to 20th level capability and play that long, or keep this one alive long enough.
Not having played Monk in the past under AD&D, and now coupling that with Druid, I am curious if any of all y'all have any special moves, go-to moves, or move advice you might wish to pass along. Further, it appears to me that when WildShape'd I will be able to utilize some of the class abilities and features and actions as well. That would be cool if I can sort out how best to utilize that.
One combo that came to mind was against a tightly clustered group of bad dudes I could MOVE into their midst, THUNDERWAVE as an ACTION, and then COMBAT WILDSHAPE as a bonus action into a Brown Bear......kind of a Zip In, BOOM, Surprise thing.....
Another was MOVE 20', Thorn Whip action, complete my MOVE to engage or pull quarry to me, Flurry of Blows....
Or, Move, Engage, Dash.....
Any counsel or advice is very much appreciated and welcomed.
Shadow Monks are a ton of fun to play but they’re kind of squishy. They get hit easily. But they can move and they make great skirmishers, helping anyone who needs it. You can, and will, use your Ki points to Dodge or Disengage as a bonus action more than you realize, even with a Moon Druid’s beast forms.
Your biggest thing to be aware of is you only get one bonus action per turn and you can use that bonus action for an extra attack, or Disengage, or Dodge, or Flurry of Blows, or shifting into wild shape, or using a Druid spell slot to heal yourself. You have a ton of options and it’s impossible to use all of them!
Monk druid combo is painful because of the lack of optimisation. You will have natural armour, so unless your DM ignores that ARMOR you have lost your unarmored defence wis mod. (same again with barbarians - you should ask if natural armor is armor way in advance. Your best early combo is the Karate arachnid. Cast darkness on an object you can put on a leather sling big enough for your spiders neck. Cast, transform into spider, scuttle into combat with advantage to hit / disadvantage against you for darkness and use the spiders blindsight to see. Use your martial arts (if allowed - check if natural armour prevents this) with spider legs instead of your one natural attack.
Barbarian synergises better with a barb dip1 or 3, rogue 2(expertise and cunning action) as well. A 2 dip into druid (moon) is good initially but as the levels increase the cr1 animal might not be as great later on (although its free hp so, yah know, not a complete drag)
That is all irrelevant if you like your character and it can thrive in your game, so enjoy yourself and welcome back to DnD!
We are using the DDB character sheet, so my AC is 10+3+3 = 16 with this character when I wear no armor. AC of Wildshape would be that creatures AC as I understand it.
I like the DARKNESS amulet trick, and the Karate Arachnid at my current level (Monk 3/Druid 2) could be deadly as a Giant Wolf Spider. It has advantage, to start, and the potential (all hits and failed saves and 1 Attack + Bonus Action of Flurry of Blows + Poison) for 16-57 HP damage (Attacks of ((1D6+1) + 2*(1D4+3)) + Poison of (3*(2D6)), AND paralyzation for 1 hour if HP go to 0.
Minimum it would ever do is 3 HP Poison and possible paralyzation. And it would eat up my 3 KI
Not bad for a CR 1/4 and 11 HP creature.
And here I was thinking Brown Bear..... 1D8+4 bite and 2D6+4 claws and Flurry of Blows come up to ((1D8+4)+(2D6+4) + (2*(1D4+3))= 19 to 42 with no poison or paralyzation....using 1 KI
For the Brown Bear, I could sustain that attack rate for 3 rounds. Whereas, for the Giant Wolf Spider, I lose Flurry of Blows and 2/3 of Poison potential after the 1st round.
So, Bear = 57 to 126 HP (all hits) versus Spider = 24 to 95 and possible paralyze (all hits, no saves) across 3 rounds of melee. - and the Spider has the advantage/disadvantage going for it .....although 1 good hit and it is squish city....reverting me back to Monk, which is not so bad....!
If I did it all right and the math is correct...... :-)
One option that's open to you is you can pick beasts that don't have natural armor and only have Dex based AC's. That will black and white allow all of your Monk abilities to work, although it will restrict you from using a couple of beast forms. It's a worthwhile trade off for what you're doing though.
Actually, natural armor works with Unarmored defense, you just cant have both. So you choose the higher one to use. If the spider has more AC than the monk, use the spider! And etc.
If natural armour works with unarmored defence its not armor. The word armor is the giveaway. No amount of wiggling can change that, no sage advice, only rewording natural armor to natural ac bonus, and quite frankly if a monk can stack wis mod on top of 'natural not an armor' then barding wouldnt replace natural armor either it would buff it, which again does not happen the barding replaces the ac of the mount in question, the entire warforged issue with ac / monk again clarified its wont stack (its overpowering) yet some might think that natural ARMOR can work with unarmored defence? So to clarify: not for me. Of course that doesnt mean you can't choose to have bear form wisdom benefitting monks using martial arts in animal form - but it shouldnt work due to the aforementioned armor. If you go that route you could also allow barbarians to wear magical armor of a lower ac than their con to benefit from the magical effect (adamantite) and take their unarmored con bonus because they are not 'using' the armor - but they are.
Natural armor isn’t armor. It’s things like a tarrasques scales or a dire wolfs hide. Therefore, you can choose between 10+dew+wisdom, or that 12 for your dire wolf monk. Either way, you benefit from Martial Arts, and all other things a monk can’t wear armor for. And a warforged’s protection counts as if it’s armored, so then you would lose things like martial arts.
You just used a sentence that stated armor wasnt armor. Imagine your fantasy world where a creature with 2 inch bone plated exoskeleton can qualify as unarmored and nimble enough for martial arts. The only reason this hasnt been stamped out of existence is because monsters cant have class levels applied to them anymore - becoming hybrid stat blocks instead. But what about the player legal Tortle with its AC of 17 for its shell? A shell that prevents dexterity being applied. I guess it could still apply its wisdom as monk according to the mechanics your applying and use martial arts, but alternatively, and hear me out, why not just try to make your world hang together a little easier and say come on, this makes no sense it aint happening?
The monsters with natural armor cant take it off - thats what natural implies - its skin bone, metal or whatnot. You havent convinced me that means they should ignore it counts as armor when they want to. Several issues occur - The worst being in your example you mention direwolf - a go to form for a level 2 moon druid - that wont be an AC of 12 but 12+wismod of lots. Clearly also you removed the dex from the inherent extra AC in the stat block but what about the armor unexplained by dex? Lets ignore it for now and step it up a notch. Following this crazy train at 11th level a 1 dip monk druid can change into a earth elemental with 17 natural armor - think about that - a creature made of stone not counting as armoured but smack a leather jerkin on it and now it cant evade as well? I dont think so. If allowed that Earth elemental will have an AC of 22 because of your monk druids wisdom which will be at 5 because this is utter nonsensical stat / ability stacking at its most cheesy and those doing it would go all in.
If you still see no problem with that as a DM then you shouldn't have a problem up until it wildshapes up in your face, but do your DM a favor as a player and point out what could / will happen and let them decide. The errata went wrong on this one, it made no sense mechanically, went against the limitations of wildshape directly and ignored Armor restrictions clouding a simple issue of armor as armor which is lovely.
No. Here. If you are a barbarian monk, do you add dexterity, and wisdom or constitution? What about both? The answer is you use the two calculations and choose which ones higher. You can use either, but DND beyond automatically selects the higher AC. You could have the perfectly natural armor of a.... just going to say 12 for a dire wolf. I don’t know what it is. So you could have 12. Just 12. Plus nothing. 12. Or, your dexterity and wisdom, which changes depending on which animal you are. A tortel only gets 17 from its shell, or it can have 10+dexterity+wisdom. Nothing more. Nothing less. Either way, it’s not armor. Natural armor is just that. Armor. Hide. Skin. Shell. It’s natural and natural armor, but not armor. You aren’t wearing plate male. It’s a shell. You can’t take it off, and it comes with the creature. It’s nit armor. It’s there naturally. Since when are humans born with Scale Mail on? I believe there is sage advice about this. Let me find it.
Bobo, you must be aware your using the sentence natural armor is not armor. You also must be happy with earthelemental unarmored defence. I hope you continue to do so. I also hope your game world hangs together well.
And the tortle thing? By your own Nat armor = stackable with unarmored agreement? That would apply to tortles in your games. Barbarian and monks with ac 22 (possibly 24 barbarian with shield). All possible at level 4. That might be the exact type of game your running, but I wouldnt imagine its particularly normal.
Direwolves have a natural ac14. The wolves dex mod is +2. The earth elemental is ac 17, its dex mod is -1.
So can you explain to me that a creature of stone could be considered unarmored for the purposes of pulling off martial art dodges and unarmed parrying, just fine, but wearing a leather jerkin is enough to prevent it? Can you tell me a creature you can skin to make hide armor is able to benefit from unarmored defence when someone wearing it could not, and if you can? Can you please explain how you reconcile that in your game world?
No. It doesn’t stack. You choose between them. Listen. You choose a tortles shell of 17 AC, or assuming 16 in dexterity and wisdom, you have 16 for your unarmored defense. Same with monks and druids. If you read the link, it said natural armor does not count as wearing armor. It’s armor, but not. They don’t stack. You can choose between the two.
Bobo - tortles armour is natural armor of 17 so your saying they have to choose between it or wisdom? but every other type of natural armor doesnt require that either or?
Bobo - tortles armour is natural armor of 17 so your saying they have to choose between it or wisdom? but every other type of natural armor doesnt require that either or?
Bobo is correct. The same is true for Lizardfolk natural armor, or any other natural armor.
Your AC calculation is either:
10 + Dex (Standard)
Calculation Provided by Armor (eg Plate)
Calculation Provided by Natural Armor (eg Tortle)
Calculation Provided by Class Feature (eg Unarmored Defense)
Calculation Provided by Spell (eg Mage Armor)
These do not stack. AC bonuses can stack. So if you receive a +2 to AC, that stacks with your armor calculation.
Thanks Mellie! Adding confusion this was about a definition of armor and the thought process from that point, your list isnt conclusive their are exceptions. Shield (spell) does stack with a shield or armor. It isnt the only one to operate this way. It isnt an AC 'calculator'. It is, with many other spells and abilities something else added to the ac 'calculation' and not a choice. Bracers of armor can also cause contention on whether or not they are applicable with monk / barbarian / other ac totals.
The point the current roundabout was on between Bobo and Myself was, from my perspective not about these choices, it is about classifying what they are. If Natural armor is not armor it could stack with monks wisdom. It shouldnt (in my opinion, it makes no sense and would provide too much of a comparative benefit). BUT it also shouldnt allow anything with natural armor to benefit from unarmored defence. Ever. Cosmetically that is correct - its armor, From other rulings such as this one its correct - its an armor choice. But sadly the 'errata' shows you can have monks wear a leather armor jacket and they cant use unarmed defence as a choice making them forget that not only is it a choice but you have to obey the wording on unarmored defense which prevents its use if any armor is present. So is natural armor, armor? Yes obviously. But as I have stated people disagree. Bobo was exceptional in adhering to the argument they laid out but has not, maybe could not explain how the sentence natural armor is not armor should be said with a straight face. In arguing that stone elemental armor wouldnt stack with unarmored wisdom because a choice must be made between the two it admits* its armor status and in doing so precludes the use of unarmored defence agreeing with me involuntarily.
*This means that lizardfolk tortles and dragons sorcerers would not be able to benefit from monk unarmored defence and martial arts which would affect players who want to play those with monk levels. This is often used to assume that this wasnt intended. Its a good argument to avoid speaking about when armor is not armor. Feel free to use that :)
Good day, all. And, Happy New Year!
Have just entered DND 5E after a ~30 year hiatus from AD&D. Pretty jazzed about it as I will not only play, but am looking to take up the DM mantle for the first time.
Have entered an existing campaign as a Shadow Monk 3 / Moon Druid 2....likely moving toward Monk 14/Druid 6 should I get to 20th level capability and play that long, or keep this one alive long enough.
Not having played Monk in the past under AD&D, and now coupling that with Druid, I am curious if any of all y'all have any special moves, go-to moves, or move advice you might wish to pass along. Further, it appears to me that when WildShape'd I will be able to utilize some of the class abilities and features and actions as well. That would be cool if I can sort out how best to utilize that.
One combo that came to mind was against a tightly clustered group of bad dudes I could MOVE into their midst, THUNDERWAVE as an ACTION, and then COMBAT WILDSHAPE as a bonus action into a Brown Bear......kind of a Zip In, BOOM, Surprise thing.....
Another was MOVE 20', Thorn Whip action, complete my MOVE to engage or pull quarry to me, Flurry of Blows....
Or, Move, Engage, Dash.....
Any counsel or advice is very much appreciated and welcomed.
Gray Mouser
Shadow Monks are a ton of fun to play but they’re kind of squishy. They get hit easily. But they can move and they make great skirmishers, helping anyone who needs it. You can, and will, use your Ki points to Dodge or Disengage as a bonus action more than you realize, even with a Moon Druid’s beast forms.
Your biggest thing to be aware of is you only get one bonus action per turn and you can use that bonus action for an extra attack, or Disengage, or Dodge, or Flurry of Blows, or shifting into wild shape, or using a Druid spell slot to heal yourself. You have a ton of options and it’s impossible to use all of them!
Professional computer geek
You would not be able to do this. You can only do Flurry of Blows if you take the Attack action. Thorn Whip would be a Cast a Spell action.
Curious, then, that the DDB character sheet reflects Flurry of Blows as an available Bonus action. Also explicitly stated on PHB 78 as a Bonus action.
Have I missed or misinterpreted something?
Gray Mouser
It indeed is a Bonus Action, but it is tied to an Attack Action to be usable in your turn.
Basically taking the Attack action is a prerequisite to be able to use Flurry of Blows (using your Bonus Action).
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
Ah, I see what MellieDM was saying now. I did, indeed, misinterpret it. Appreciate the clarification from both of you.
Gray Mouser
Monk druid combo is painful because of the lack of optimisation. You will have natural armour, so unless your DM ignores that ARMOR you have lost your unarmored defence wis mod. (same again with barbarians - you should ask if natural armor is armor way in advance. Your best early combo is the Karate arachnid. Cast darkness on an object you can put on a leather sling big enough for your spiders neck. Cast, transform into spider, scuttle into combat with advantage to hit / disadvantage against you for darkness and use the spiders blindsight to see. Use your martial arts (if allowed - check if natural armour prevents this) with spider legs instead of your one natural attack.
Barbarian synergises better with a barb dip1 or 3, rogue 2(expertise and cunning action) as well. A 2 dip into druid (moon) is good initially but as the levels increase the cr1 animal might not be as great later on (although its free hp so, yah know, not a complete drag)
That is all irrelevant if you like your character and it can thrive in your game, so enjoy yourself and welcome back to DnD!
We are using the DDB character sheet, so my AC is 10+3+3 = 16 with this character when I wear no armor. AC of Wildshape would be that creatures AC as I understand it.
I like the DARKNESS amulet trick, and the Karate Arachnid at my current level (Monk 3/Druid 2) could be deadly as a Giant Wolf Spider. It has advantage, to start, and the potential (all hits and failed saves and 1 Attack + Bonus Action of Flurry of Blows + Poison) for 16-57 HP damage (Attacks of ((1D6+1) + 2*(1D4+3)) + Poison of (3*(2D6)), AND paralyzation for 1 hour if HP go to 0.
Minimum it would ever do is 3 HP Poison and possible paralyzation. And it would eat up my 3 KI
Not bad for a CR 1/4 and 11 HP creature.
And here I was thinking Brown Bear..... 1D8+4 bite and 2D6+4 claws and Flurry of Blows come up to ((1D8+4)+(2D6+4) + (2*(1D4+3))= 19 to 42 with no poison or paralyzation....using 1 KI
For the Brown Bear, I could sustain that attack rate for 3 rounds. Whereas, for the Giant Wolf Spider, I lose Flurry of Blows and 2/3 of Poison potential after the 1st round.
So, Bear = 57 to 126 HP (all hits) versus Spider = 24 to 95 and possible paralyze (all hits, no saves) across 3 rounds of melee. - and the Spider has the advantage/disadvantage going for it .....although 1 good hit and it is squish city....reverting me back to Monk, which is not so bad....!
If I did it all right and the math is correct...... :-)
Gray Mouser
One option that's open to you is you can pick beasts that don't have natural armor and only have Dex based AC's. That will black and white allow all of your Monk abilities to work, although it will restrict you from using a couple of beast forms. It's a worthwhile trade off for what you're doing though.
Professional computer geek
Actually, natural armor works with Unarmored defense, you just cant have both. So you choose the higher one to use. If the spider has more AC than the monk, use the spider! And etc.
If natural armour works with unarmored defence its not armor. The word armor is the giveaway. No amount of wiggling can change that, no sage advice, only rewording natural armor to natural ac bonus, and quite frankly if a monk can stack wis mod on top of 'natural not an armor' then barding wouldnt replace natural armor either it would buff it, which again does not happen the barding replaces the ac of the mount in question, the entire warforged issue with ac / monk again clarified its wont stack (its overpowering) yet some might think that natural ARMOR can work with unarmored defence? So to clarify: not for me. Of course that doesnt mean you can't choose to have bear form wisdom benefitting monks using martial arts in animal form - but it shouldnt work due to the aforementioned armor. If you go that route you could also allow barbarians to wear magical armor of a lower ac than their con to benefit from the magical effect (adamantite) and take their unarmored con bonus because they are not 'using' the armor - but they are.
Natural armor isn’t armor. It’s things like a tarrasques scales or a dire wolfs hide. Therefore, you can choose between 10+dew+wisdom, or that 12 for your dire wolf monk. Either way, you benefit from Martial Arts, and all other things a monk can’t wear armor for. And a warforged’s protection counts as if it’s armored, so then you would lose things like martial arts.
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Haven’t used this account in forever. Still a big fan of crawling claws.
You just used a sentence that stated armor wasnt armor. Imagine your fantasy world where a creature with 2 inch bone plated exoskeleton can qualify as unarmored and nimble enough for martial arts. The only reason this hasnt been stamped out of existence is because monsters cant have class levels applied to them anymore - becoming hybrid stat blocks instead. But what about the player legal Tortle with its AC of 17 for its shell? A shell that prevents dexterity being applied. I guess it could still apply its wisdom as monk according to the mechanics your applying and use martial arts, but alternatively, and hear me out, why not just try to make your world hang together a little easier and say come on, this makes no sense it aint happening?
The monsters with natural armor cant take it off - thats what natural implies - its skin bone, metal or whatnot. You havent convinced me that means they should ignore it counts as armor when they want to. Several issues occur - The worst being in your example you mention direwolf - a go to form for a level 2 moon druid - that wont be an AC of 12 but 12+wismod of lots. Clearly also you removed the dex from the inherent extra AC in the stat block but what about the armor unexplained by dex? Lets ignore it for now and step it up a notch. Following this crazy train at 11th level a 1 dip monk druid can change into a earth elemental with 17 natural armor - think about that - a creature made of stone not counting as armoured but smack a leather jerkin on it and now it cant evade as well? I dont think so. If allowed that Earth elemental will have an AC of 22 because of your monk druids wisdom which will be at 5 because this is utter nonsensical stat / ability stacking at its most cheesy and those doing it would go all in.
If you still see no problem with that as a DM then you shouldn't have a problem up until it wildshapes up in your face, but do your DM a favor as a player and point out what could / will happen and let them decide. The errata went wrong on this one, it made no sense mechanically, went against the limitations of wildshape directly and ignored Armor restrictions clouding a simple issue of armor as armor which is lovely.
No. Here. If you are a barbarian monk, do you add dexterity, and wisdom or constitution? What about both? The answer is you use the two calculations and choose which ones higher. You can use either, but DND beyond automatically selects the higher AC. You could have the perfectly natural armor of a.... just going to say 12 for a dire wolf. I don’t know what it is. So you could have 12. Just 12. Plus nothing. 12. Or, your dexterity and wisdom, which changes depending on which animal you are. A tortel only gets 17 from its shell, or it can have 10+dexterity+wisdom. Nothing more. Nothing less. Either way, it’s not armor. Natural armor is just that. Armor. Hide. Skin. Shell. It’s natural and natural armor, but not armor. You aren’t wearing plate male. It’s a shell. You can’t take it off, and it comes with the creature. It’s nit armor. It’s there naturally. Since when are humans born with Scale Mail on? I believe there is sage advice about this. Let me find it.
Extended Signature! Yay! https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/off-topic/adohands-kitchen/3153-extended-signature-thread?page=2#c21
Haven’t used this account in forever. Still a big fan of crawling claws.
BOOM!!
http://media.wizards.com/2016/downloads/DND/SA-Compendium.pdf
Extended Signature! Yay! https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/off-topic/adohands-kitchen/3153-extended-signature-thread?page=2#c21
Haven’t used this account in forever. Still a big fan of crawling claws.
Bobo, you must be aware your using the sentence natural armor is not armor. You also must be happy with earthelemental unarmored defence. I hope you continue to do so. I also hope your game world hangs together well.
And the tortle thing? By your own Nat armor = stackable with unarmored agreement? That would apply to tortles in your games. Barbarian and monks with ac 22 (possibly 24 barbarian with shield). All possible at level 4. That might be the exact type of game your running, but I wouldnt imagine its particularly normal.
Direwolves have a natural ac14. The wolves dex mod is +2. The earth elemental is ac 17, its dex mod is -1.
So can you explain to me that a creature of stone could be considered unarmored for the purposes of pulling off martial art dodges and unarmed parrying, just fine, but wearing a leather jerkin is enough to prevent it? Can you tell me a creature you can skin to make hide armor is able to benefit from unarmored defence when someone wearing it could not, and if you can? Can you please explain how you reconcile that in your game world?
No. It doesn’t stack. You choose between them. Listen. You choose a tortles shell of 17 AC, or assuming 16 in dexterity and wisdom, you have 16 for your unarmored defense. Same with monks and druids. If you read the link, it said natural armor does not count as wearing armor. It’s armor, but not. They don’t stack. You can choose between the two.
Extended Signature! Yay! https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/off-topic/adohands-kitchen/3153-extended-signature-thread?page=2#c21
Haven’t used this account in forever. Still a big fan of crawling claws.
Bobo - tortles armour is natural armor of 17 so your saying they have to choose between it or wisdom? but every other type of natural armor doesnt require that either or?
Bobo is correct. The same is true for Lizardfolk natural armor, or any other natural armor.
Your AC calculation is either:
These do not stack. AC bonuses can stack. So if you receive a +2 to AC, that stacks with your armor calculation.
Thanks Mellie! Adding confusion this was about a definition of armor and the thought process from that point, your list isnt conclusive their are exceptions. Shield (spell) does stack with a shield or armor. It isnt the only one to operate this way. It isnt an AC 'calculator'. It is, with many other spells and abilities something else added to the ac 'calculation' and not a choice. Bracers of armor can also cause contention on whether or not they are applicable with monk / barbarian / other ac totals.
The point the current roundabout was on between Bobo and Myself was, from my perspective not about these choices, it is about classifying what they are. If Natural armor is not armor it could stack with monks wisdom. It shouldnt (in my opinion, it makes no sense and would provide too much of a comparative benefit). BUT it also shouldnt allow anything with natural armor to benefit from unarmored defence. Ever. Cosmetically that is correct - its armor, From other rulings such as this one its correct - its an armor choice. But sadly the 'errata' shows you can have monks wear a leather armor jacket and they cant use unarmed defence as a choice making them forget that not only is it a choice but you have to obey the wording on unarmored defense which prevents its use if any armor is present. So is natural armor, armor? Yes obviously. But as I have stated people disagree. Bobo was exceptional in adhering to the argument they laid out but has not, maybe could not explain how the sentence natural armor is not armor should be said with a straight face. In arguing that stone elemental armor wouldnt stack with unarmored wisdom because a choice must be made between the two it admits* its armor status and in doing so precludes the use of unarmored defence agreeing with me involuntarily.
*This means that lizardfolk tortles and dragons sorcerers would not be able to benefit from monk unarmored defence and martial arts which would affect players who want to play those with monk levels. This is often used to assume that this wasnt intended. Its a good argument to avoid speaking about when armor is not armor. Feel free to use that :)