Hear me out. The main combat difference from 2 points in Wisdom from 2 Points in Dexterity for a monk is a 5% increased chance to hit (without Advantage or Disadvantage) and 1 damage per hit for Dexterity versus an increased Spell Save DC for Stunning Strike (again a 5% increased chance to hit without Advantage or Disadvantage). Monks also get a free 3 strikes per turn at this level(4 if they want to burn ki) and landing a Stunning Strike on your first successful hit will make all successive hits be rolled at advantage until the END of your next turn, meaning if you stunned the target on your first strike, this one stun would give you advantage on 5 attacks, and keep them from doing anything for an entire round of combat. In all but the worst case scenarios, you are landing at least 1 hit per turn, and getting a stunning strike off all but guarantees you will get another one on your next.
Taken in isolation, I would say this seems like a fairly even trade; however, you are not fighting alone; you are also giving all of your allies free hits with spells using Dexterity of Strength saves and can simply lock down difficult casters that could AoE your party. High Level synopsis: With a focus on Wisdom you may be doing slightly less damage on trash mobs, but the monk has not typically excelled there anyway, instead you will aid your party in locking down and beating up creatures that actually pose a significant threat.
I think it's Dex but not by much. Both give you 1AC so that's a tie. Dex gives you +5% chance to hit and +1 damage on a hit. Wisdom increases the chance that your stun will land by 5%. You still need to land attacks for the stun to land so it's more it less moot which one you choose. Monks get plenty of attacks though so the chance one lands is fairly good already.
All this considered I think it's a pretty balanced choice perhaps favoring wisdom as you mention. That being said, I think Dex is the better option here because you won't always be stunning in combat. Ki is a finite resource. At lower levels you'll be using it especially sparingly. Maybe for your second ASI it'd be worth taking wisdom. By that point you have a fair amount of ki so stunning strike will be available more often.
I think it's Dex but not by much. Both give you 1AC so that's a tie. Dex gives you +5% chance to hit and +1 damage on a hit. Wisdom increases the chance that your stun will land by 5%. You still need to land attacks for the stun to land so it's more it less moot which one you choose. Monks get plenty of attacks though so the chance one lands is fairly good already.
All this considered I think it's a pretty balanced choice perhaps favoring wisdom as you mention. That being said, I think Dex is the better option here because you won't always be stunning in combat. Ki is a finite resource. At lower levels you'll be using it especially sparingly. Maybe for your second ASI it'd be worth taking wisdom. By that point you have a fair amount of ki so stunning strike will be available more often.
I can agree with that sentiment, a lot of the discussion I have seen going around has essentially been "Max out dex, and maybe put some points in wis if you can". I don't think that their difference in power is huge, but definitely not as one sided towards dex as I have been reading. When playing Monk I have typically kept Wisdom the same or one modifier higher than Dex until cap, but it seemed against common *no pun intended* wisdom, hence saying it was an unpopular opinion, but the poll responses seem to be leaning towards it being more even than where I had been looking prior.
I think I echo pretty much everything that Kendris said. I would just add if you find yourself in a group that doesn't short rest much then every ki point becomes important at nearly all tiers of play.
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I agree, maximizing Stunning Strike chances will usually yield better results for the group, and a successful Stunning Strike offsets some of the penalties of lower DEX. You've got unlimited chances to hit, but the number of times you can try to apply Stunning Strike is limited so you want to make it count. Plus, monks don't need much help in the Dexterity saving throw department, but failing a Wisdom save can take you out of the fight.
It's not a huge difference, but I do think WIS is slightly better overall.
Currently playing an open hand monk, I find myself agreeing with the OP - for the next ASI, I have been strongly leaning towards maxing out Wisdom, before maxing out Dex (currently both at 18). I prefer the encounter-changing utility of a Stunning Strike landing over the increased dmg. Nice side-effect: maxing Wis first it happens to fit my character concept...
I have to give Wisdom the very, very slight edge to Dexterity if you are talking about 5+.
The main reason here is, yes Dex will give you a slightly better chance at hitting, maybe a +1 to hit and damage. But the ability to Stun someone easily outweighs the damage you can do. If planned right, you're basically giving everyone on your team advantage on all the hits. Meaning who cares about your +1 to damage when you greatly increase the chance of 2-5 other people hitting that target dealing all of their additional damage.
I personally would have a +1 to the Stun DC instead of a +1 to hit and damage.
Sadly, all of this brings my biggest issue with the monk up... they kinda max out once they hit level 7. There are nice abilities afterwords, but Stun and Evasion are easily the best features in my opinion that a Monk gets.
I have to give Wisdom the very, very slight edge to Dexterity if you are talking about 5+.
The main reason here is, yes Dex will give you a slightly better chance at hitting, maybe a +1 to hit and damage. But the ability to Stun someone easily outweighs the damage you can do. If planned right, you're basically giving everyone on your team advantage on all the hits. Meaning who cares about your +1 to damage when you greatly increase the chance of 2-5 other people hitting that target dealing all of their additional damage.
I personally would have a +1 to the Stun DC instead of a +1 to hit and damage.
Sadly, all of this brings my biggest issue with the monk up... they kinda max out once they hit level 7. There are nice abilities afterwords, but Stun and Evasion are easily the best features in my opinion that a Monk gets.
Agree and disagree. Stun is amazeballs, but every level of monk gives you another ki point to stun with. Also getting proficiency in all saves is also a very good defensive talent, almost as good as stuns.
Agree and disagree. Stun is amazeballs, but every level of monk gives you another ki point to stun with. Also getting proficiency in all saves is also a very good defensive talent, almost as good as stuns.
Yes, every level gives you an additional ki point. Which is good, but I was more referring to there class abilities after level 7. Yes Diamond Soul is good but is it worth 7 levels of nothing basically?
Yes, every level gives you an additional ki point. Which is good, but I was more referring to there class abilities after level 7. Yes Diamond Soul is good but is it worth 7 levels of nothing basically?
Are we just ignoring that extra 5 ft of speed, moving along water and walls, getting 1d8 on unarmed strikes and that subclass feature at 11th on top of the extra ki points or...?
They are already at a higher movement speed of most other classes, not sure about your games, but that extra 5-10 feet just isn't worth it.
Moving along Water and Walls can be done by spells if you are multiclass after level 7 that add even more flexibility to them than just that one feature, such as Jump, Water Walk and Fly
As for the 11th level archetype feature, none of those are that great except for Open Hand.
Four Elements is kinda crap all the way through
Drunken Master can be countered in so many ways, it is stupid to have to spend 2 ki points.
Never played Kensei, but their 11th level feature just seems like kinda waster to wait that long for it.
Sun Soul, is like a better version of Four Elements, It's 11th level feature is actually pretty decent but not that worth it.
As for the increase, the monk damage dice, that and increasing your KI are probably the best reason to level more into a monk. BUT I was specifically saying their class features after level 11 really are not all that great.
Now I would also like, that I love the Monk playstyle. There are things about it that really annoy me, e.g. why does the monk have to spend ki points to do what a rogue does for free and they both get access to that same feature at the same time? (cunning action BTW). There are very few magically items that are not homebrewed that improve a monks core feature "unarmed strikes" it is like the game expects you to use a quarterstaff. I overall love the playstyle of a monk, feel like wizards did they a disservice in this edition.
To be clear. I am not talking about RP or Playstyle, because I personally believe monks have one of the best RP and Playstyle potential in the game. I am specifically talking from a numbers perspective.
All I'm hearing is that you don't personally like anything they get after 7th level, which is not at all the same as saying they get nothing or even "practically nothing."
An extra 5 feet of movement still matters in a class that can dash as a bonus action, relies on being in melee range and that has a special mode of movement that only lasts as long as you keep moving. The fact that there's spells that could achieve the same thing is neither here nor there. Monks get it for free, without wasting any slots or actions, round after round.
It's also really weird to claim that the 11th level subclass features suck other than Open Hand when Tranquility is definitely the most underwhelming. Drunkard's Luck, Mastery of Death, Sharpen the Blade and Searing Sunburst are all way more useful in any kind of combat situation. Which is fine, because Way of the Open Hand is super front-loaded and the real benefit to reaching 11th level is having more ki points to spam Open Hand Technique with.
Either way, even if you wanted to pretend they get absolutely nothing else between 7th and 14th, yes, an extra 7 ki points and Diamond Soul still kicks ass.
All everyone keeps saying is...THE EXTRA KI AND DAMAGE DICE. Those aren't new class features, they are balance improvements to keep the class-competitive.
Movement, take two levels of rogue, then you can Dash as a Bonus Action and preserve your KI, that everyone here is so worried about running low on. "special mode of movement that only lasts as long as you keep moving." I am not even sure what you are referring to. Unless you are referring to the 9th Level feature of Unarmored Movement "At 9th level, you gain the ability to move along vertical surfaces and across liquids on your turn without falling during the move." Which yes this is a nice ability, but at least in all of my time playing has this been so crucial that I felt it was required and difently not something I would want to wait until the 9th level to do. At best the running up vertical walls has been cool, its only real use is in combat because out of combat there are usually many ways to handle this feature.
I will actually concede on the Tranquility Feature due to the fact that I didn't properly read it and it can end early by basically preforming and aggressive action. Making it really kinda pointless.
Once again, I stand by my statement about Drunkard’s Luck, it's so easy to counter Disadvantage in this game, specifically if you are using the optional Flanking rule, that It's almost entirely pointless to spend to KI points to do that.
Mastery of Death is actually probably my favorite one but seems like a long time to wait for such a feature.
As before I will concede on the Kensi feature as I previously stated I never played them and missed the Sharpen the Blade and was only saw the Kensei Weapon feature. Which is actually a pretty good ability but completely pointless if you have a +1 weapon. So It's great depending on how much magic is in your world. Because the feature specifically states "his feature has no effect on a magic weapon that already has a bonus to attack and damage rolls." meaning if you have a +1 weapon you can't even use this ability to bump it to a +2 or +3, So if you would has very little magic in it and you don't have a +1 weapon. This is an amazing feature... If you have a +1 weapon, this is pretty much trash.
And I did state that Searing Sunburst is one of the better features, however, multiclassing into a spell caster for 5 levels would give your character a wider variety of abilities that would do just as well.
Lastly, as I stated in almost every post, I ACTUALLY like playing monks, I will even play a monk past level 7, I think the monk class is a great class and I even want to try playing a Way of the Kensi one. My problem is and no matter how much you argue otherwise, their higher-level features do not compete with other classes' higher-level features. I am saying from a mechanics and optimization stand-point (numbers perspective) you would do better multi-classing after level 7.
EDIT: This is going to be my last post on this thread due to feeling as though this whole conversation is becoming way off topic.
People say the same thing about warlocks. Or paladins. Or rogues. Or basically anything that isn't a fighter or a wizard. I've seen "this class is pointless after [X]th level, you're just better off multiclassing" everywhere.
Classes are designed so their most frequently useful (and, often, least powerful) tools come first, to get the basics of the class in place. After that, they get abilities that are useful less often but which are more powerful when they do come up. You may not value the movement capabilities of the monk, but for other players that's one of the main draws of the class. I've seen the opinion a million times that Tongue of Sun and Moon is a dead level you suffer through to get Diamond Soul...right up until the monk is the only one who can negotiate with the ancient death warden who speaks a language lost to the sands of time. Empty Body is typically considered borderline pointless, despite it being Greater Invisibility whenever you like as long as your ki holds out.
A lot of these opinions amount to "this feature isn't useful in combat, therefor it sucks", or analysis in a vacuum where it's assumed that no situation where the ability is useful and the need is pressing will ever emerge. it's why everyone thinks of monks as being nothing but stunbots whose sole and entire purpose is to Stunning Strike everything, at all times, with every single ki point.
Doesn't anyone ever get tired of playing that way?
This is misleading, as a +5% increase to hit usually increases your damage/attack by significantly more than 5%. Lets say you hit a given enemy on a 16 or better and deal an average of 10 damage per hit (a lot of damage I know, but using 10 makes the math easy). you chance to hit is 25%. 25% times 10 damage = 2.5 damage per attack. If you get a plus one to hit (from +2 dex), your chance to hit is now 30%, which increase your damage to 3 per attack, a 20% increase from 2.5. In some cases a +1 to hit can increase your damage per attack by 100%. (if you had a 5% chance to hit and increase it to 10%
For the majority of Monks, dexterity is ever so slightly more useful, but if your subclass has any features that run off of Wis, I’d advocate for boosting Wis over Dex. I’m using the UA Ascendant Dragon Monk, and I’m maxing my Wis first so I can hit with my dragon breath better, and of course Astral Self would love maxed Wis.
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Hear me out. The main combat difference from 2 points in Wisdom from 2 Points in Dexterity for a monk is a 5% increased chance to hit (without Advantage or Disadvantage) and 1 damage per hit for Dexterity versus an increased Spell Save DC for Stunning Strike (again a 5% increased chance to hit without Advantage or Disadvantage). Monks also get a free 3 strikes per turn at this level(4 if they want to burn ki) and landing a Stunning Strike on your first successful hit will make all successive hits be rolled at advantage until the END of your next turn, meaning if you stunned the target on your first strike, this one stun would give you advantage on 5 attacks, and keep them from doing anything for an entire round of combat. In all but the worst case scenarios, you are landing at least 1 hit per turn, and getting a stunning strike off all but guarantees you will get another one on your next.
Taken in isolation, I would say this seems like a fairly even trade; however, you are not fighting alone; you are also giving all of your allies free hits with spells using Dexterity of Strength saves and can simply lock down difficult casters that could AoE your party. High Level synopsis: With a focus on Wisdom you may be doing slightly less damage on trash mobs, but the monk has not typically excelled there anyway, instead you will aid your party in locking down and beating up creatures that actually pose a significant threat.
I'd say they are about equal. You do still need to hit to even try to stun. Plus damage and a handful of other useful abilities scale off DEX.
I think it's Dex but not by much. Both give you 1AC so that's a tie. Dex gives you +5% chance to hit and +1 damage on a hit. Wisdom increases the chance that your stun will land by 5%. You still need to land attacks for the stun to land so it's more it less moot which one you choose. Monks get plenty of attacks though so the chance one lands is fairly good already.
All this considered I think it's a pretty balanced choice perhaps favoring wisdom as you mention. That being said, I think Dex is the better option here because you won't always be stunning in combat. Ki is a finite resource. At lower levels you'll be using it especially sparingly. Maybe for your second ASI it'd be worth taking wisdom. By that point you have a fair amount of ki so stunning strike will be available more often.
I can agree with that sentiment, a lot of the discussion I have seen going around has essentially been "Max out dex, and maybe put some points in wis if you can". I don't think that their difference in power is huge, but definitely not as one sided towards dex as I have been reading. When playing Monk I have typically kept Wisdom the same or one modifier higher than Dex until cap, but it seemed against common *no pun intended* wisdom, hence saying it was an unpopular opinion, but the poll responses seem to be leaning towards it being more even than where I had been looking prior.
I think I echo pretty much everything that Kendris said. I would just add if you find yourself in a group that doesn't short rest much then every ki point becomes important at nearly all tiers of play.
I actually initially voted that I thought it was even and then changed it after I typed out my response.
I agree, maximizing Stunning Strike chances will usually yield better results for the group, and a successful Stunning Strike offsets some of the penalties of lower DEX. You've got unlimited chances to hit, but the number of times you can try to apply Stunning Strike is limited so you want to make it count. Plus, monks don't need much help in the Dexterity saving throw department, but failing a Wisdom save can take you out of the fight.
It's not a huge difference, but I do think WIS is slightly better overall.
Currently playing an open hand monk, I find myself agreeing with the OP - for the next ASI, I have been strongly leaning towards maxing out Wisdom, before maxing out Dex (currently both at 18). I prefer the encounter-changing utility of a Stunning Strike landing over the increased dmg. Nice side-effect: maxing Wis first it happens to fit my character concept...
Or just go Astral Monk and go full Wis!
Ya, for Astral, Wisdom is 100% the way to go first. But after 20, dex is still good for AC.
I have to give Wisdom the very, very slight edge to Dexterity if you are talking about 5+.
The main reason here is, yes Dex will give you a slightly better chance at hitting, maybe a +1 to hit and damage. But the ability to Stun someone easily outweighs the damage you can do. If planned right, you're basically giving everyone on your team advantage on all the hits. Meaning who cares about your +1 to damage when you greatly increase the chance of 2-5 other people hitting that target dealing all of their additional damage.
I personally would have a +1 to the Stun DC instead of a +1 to hit and damage.
Sadly, all of this brings my biggest issue with the monk up... they kinda max out once they hit level 7. There are nice abilities afterwords, but Stun and Evasion are easily the best features in my opinion that a Monk gets.
Agree and disagree. Stun is amazeballs, but every level of monk gives you another ki point to stun with. Also getting proficiency in all saves is also a very good defensive talent, almost as good as stuns.
Yes, every level gives you an additional ki point. Which is good, but I was more referring to there class abilities after level 7. Yes Diamond Soul is good but is it worth 7 levels of nothing basically?
Are we just ignoring that extra 5 ft of speed, moving along water and walls, getting 1d8 on unarmed strikes and that subclass feature at 11th on top of the extra ki points or...?
They are already at a higher movement speed of most other classes, not sure about your games, but that extra 5-10 feet just isn't worth it.
Moving along Water and Walls can be done by spells if you are multiclass after level 7 that add even more flexibility to them than just that one feature, such as Jump, Water Walk and Fly
As for the 11th level archetype feature, none of those are that great except for Open Hand.
Four Elements is kinda crap all the way through
Drunken Master can be countered in so many ways, it is stupid to have to spend 2 ki points.
Never played Kensei, but their 11th level feature just seems like kinda waster to wait that long for it.
Sun Soul, is like a better version of Four Elements, It's 11th level feature is actually pretty decent but not that worth it.
As for the increase, the monk damage dice, that and increasing your KI are probably the best reason to level more into a monk. BUT I was specifically saying their class features after level 11 really are not all that great.
Now I would also like, that I love the Monk playstyle. There are things about it that really annoy me, e.g. why does the monk have to spend ki points to do what a rogue does for free and they both get access to that same feature at the same time? (cunning action BTW). There are very few magically items that are not homebrewed that improve a monks core feature "unarmed strikes" it is like the game expects you to use a quarterstaff. I overall love the playstyle of a monk, feel like wizards did they a disservice in this edition.
To be clear. I am not talking about RP or Playstyle, because I personally believe monks have one of the best RP and Playstyle potential in the game. I am specifically talking from a numbers perspective.
All I'm hearing is that you don't personally like anything they get after 7th level, which is not at all the same as saying they get nothing or even "practically nothing."
An extra 5 feet of movement still matters in a class that can dash as a bonus action, relies on being in melee range and that has a special mode of movement that only lasts as long as you keep moving. The fact that there's spells that could achieve the same thing is neither here nor there. Monks get it for free, without wasting any slots or actions, round after round.
It's also really weird to claim that the 11th level subclass features suck other than Open Hand when Tranquility is definitely the most underwhelming. Drunkard's Luck, Mastery of Death, Sharpen the Blade and Searing Sunburst are all way more useful in any kind of combat situation. Which is fine, because Way of the Open Hand is super front-loaded and the real benefit to reaching 11th level is having more ki points to spam Open Hand Technique with.
Either way, even if you wanted to pretend they get absolutely nothing else between 7th and 14th, yes, an extra 7 ki points and Diamond Soul still kicks ass.
All everyone keeps saying is...THE EXTRA KI AND DAMAGE DICE. Those aren't new class features, they are balance improvements to keep the class-competitive.
Movement, take two levels of rogue, then you can Dash as a Bonus Action and preserve your KI, that everyone here is so worried about running low on. "special mode of movement that only lasts as long as you keep moving." I am not even sure what you are referring to. Unless you are referring to the 9th Level feature of Unarmored Movement "At 9th level, you gain the ability to move along vertical surfaces and across liquids on your turn without falling during the move." Which yes this is a nice ability, but at least in all of my time playing has this been so crucial that I felt it was required and difently not something I would want to wait until the 9th level to do. At best the running up vertical walls has been cool, its only real use is in combat because out of combat there are usually many ways to handle this feature.
I will actually concede on the Tranquility Feature due to the fact that I didn't properly read it and it can end early by basically preforming and aggressive action. Making it really kinda pointless.
Once again, I stand by my statement about Drunkard’s Luck, it's so easy to counter Disadvantage in this game, specifically if you are using the optional Flanking rule, that It's almost entirely pointless to spend to KI points to do that.
Mastery of Death is actually probably my favorite one but seems like a long time to wait for such a feature.
As before I will concede on the Kensi feature as I previously stated I never played them and missed the Sharpen the Blade and was only saw the Kensei Weapon feature. Which is actually a pretty good ability but completely pointless if you have a +1 weapon. So It's great depending on how much magic is in your world. Because the feature specifically states "his feature has no effect on a magic weapon that already has a bonus to attack and damage rolls." meaning if you have a +1 weapon you can't even use this ability to bump it to a +2 or +3, So if you would has very little magic in it and you don't have a +1 weapon. This is an amazing feature... If you have a +1 weapon, this is pretty much trash.
And I did state that Searing Sunburst is one of the better features, however, multiclassing into a spell caster for 5 levels would give your character a wider variety of abilities that would do just as well.
Lastly, as I stated in almost every post, I ACTUALLY like playing monks, I will even play a monk past level 7, I think the monk class is a great class and I even want to try playing a Way of the Kensi one. My problem is and no matter how much you argue otherwise, their higher-level features do not compete with other classes' higher-level features. I am saying from a mechanics and optimization stand-point (numbers perspective) you would do better multi-classing after level 7.
EDIT: This is going to be my last post on this thread due to feeling as though this whole conversation is becoming way off topic.
People say the same thing about warlocks. Or paladins. Or rogues. Or basically anything that isn't a fighter or a wizard. I've seen "this class is pointless after [X]th level, you're just better off multiclassing" everywhere.
Classes are designed so their most frequently useful (and, often, least powerful) tools come first, to get the basics of the class in place. After that, they get abilities that are useful less often but which are more powerful when they do come up. You may not value the movement capabilities of the monk, but for other players that's one of the main draws of the class. I've seen the opinion a million times that Tongue of Sun and Moon is a dead level you suffer through to get Diamond Soul...right up until the monk is the only one who can negotiate with the ancient death warden who speaks a language lost to the sands of time. Empty Body is typically considered borderline pointless, despite it being Greater Invisibility whenever you like as long as your ki holds out.
A lot of these opinions amount to "this feature isn't useful in combat, therefor it sucks", or analysis in a vacuum where it's assumed that no situation where the ability is useful and the need is pressing will ever emerge. it's why everyone thinks of monks as being nothing but stunbots whose sole and entire purpose is to Stunning Strike everything, at all times, with every single ki point.
Doesn't anyone ever get tired of playing that way?
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This is misleading, as a +5% increase to hit usually increases your damage/attack by significantly more than 5%. Lets say you hit a given enemy on a 16 or better and deal an average of 10 damage per hit (a lot of damage I know, but using 10 makes the math easy). you chance to hit is 25%. 25% times 10 damage = 2.5 damage per attack. If you get a plus one to hit (from +2 dex), your chance to hit is now 30%, which increase your damage to 3 per attack, a 20% increase from 2.5. In some cases a +1 to hit can increase your damage per attack by 100%. (if you had a 5% chance to hit and increase it to 10%
For the majority of Monks, dexterity is ever so slightly more useful, but if your subclass has any features that run off of Wis, I’d advocate for boosting Wis over Dex. I’m using the UA Ascendant Dragon Monk, and I’m maxing my Wis first so I can hit with my dragon breath better, and of course Astral Self would love maxed Wis.