Hello. I've recently made a Minotaur Paladin, and I plan for him to take the Oath of Conquest. With this idea in mind, should I go Sword and Board for a mix of offense and defense, or One Handed, for absolute damage? Thanks in advance!
As a Conqueror, you're naturally going to fall more into a control/tank/support kind of role, since your biggest signature feature, the Aura of Conquest, only works if you've already frightened a target, which means you need to prioritize your charisma score and concentration saves in order to land and hold those frighten effects, which in turn means you're also going to have slightly worse weapon attacks but slightly better spellcasting and support abilities like Aura of Protection than typical paladins.
So you're looking at a tanky support role, and a need to avoid as many incoming attacks as possible in order to not have to make unnecessary concentration saves. For this reason, you'd really like to use a shield.
However, as a controlly tank you really want to be able to control an area around you, and in particular you'd like to be able to attack enemies trapped by your aura of conquest without having to move into melee possible since that will leave trapped melee enemies with no body to attack at all. For this reason, you'd really like to use a reach weapon, even if as a Conqueror you usually won't have room for the Polearm Master feat in your build.
Finally, for all your support and control abilities, at the end of the day you're still a martial class, and weapon attacks are still going to make up the overwhelming majority of your actions in the overwhelming majority of combats throughout your career. Base weapon damage may not seem like it matters that much, but it does add up, and you're already letting your damage output slide a bit to prioritize your frighten effects. Mediocre damage output is ok since as a paladin you can turn it up when you need to, but bad damage is bad. As such, you'd really like to use a weapon with at least decent base damage dice.
So there are three priorities when selecting weapons for your conqueror - defense, reach, and damage - and as is so often the case in such situations you can only have two. This leads to three different optimal weapon choices:
1. defense plus damage - any one handed weapon with d8 damage die that can be wielded along with a shield. Longsword, Warhammer, that sort of thing. The rapier is one of these that even works with dex builds
2. damage plus reach - any of the two handed reach weapons with d10 damage die - Halberd, Glaive, or Pike. Note that this option is not available to dex primary conquest paladins, where the other two are.
3. reach plus defense - the whip is the singular one handed weapon in 5e with reach, allowing you to use it with a shield. It's even a finesse weapon, so dex builds can use it. Unfortunately the d4 damage die is pretty bad.
Any of the above can be considered optimal for a Conquest Paladin. In fact, since your early ASIs are likely going into maxing out charisma and taking either War Caster or Resilient to shore up your concentration saves, you probably aren't taking any feats that would lock you into a particular set of weapon options. Even if you do somehow have some available feats, other options like raising your weapon attack stat or improving your tanking and support abilities with feats like Sentinel, Inspiring Leader, or Alert are still probably higher priorities to you than the typical weapon damage feats like Polearm Master or Great Weapon Master. Defense is probably your best fighting style chocie as well, which works with any of the above, as does Blind Fighting or Blessed Warrior if you want a more interesting style.
As such, you should feel free to switch between these options as you like. Have a weapon from each category that you can switch between as necessary. At the very least, purchase and keep a spare whip if you otherwise fight with sword & board, or a spare Rapier or Warhammer if you usually fight with a whip. And if you happen to find a cool magic weapon, you can go ahead and use it, even if it's a different kind of weapon from what you were using before.
Conquerors are, after all, typically pragmatic types. Not overly prone to sentiment, not particularly concerned with image or style. They value strength above all, and will think nothing of abandoning a trusty weapon that has served them well if a better alternative comes along.
I'm going to assume you meant two-handed for damage. The big factor is going to be the rest of the party. If they're all squishy, you should go sword and board so you can be better at soaking enemy attacks. If there's other melee types up next to you, then two-handed can work.
Switching back and forth, as secption suggests, is a good option too. At least in the early levels while you are trying to see how the party will come together. Then once you land on a style that works better for you, start taking feats to compliment it.
Oh yeah, I meant two-handed, sorry! The party is almost completely devoid of spellcasters, there are only two while there are like 4 melee fighters. Two monk,s a fighter, and a rogue. and 2 Wizards.
Switching between styles? I never thought that could work at all, I thought I needed to be restricted to one Fighting Style for the most part.
Oh yeah, I meant two-handed, sorry! The party is almost completely devoid of spellcasters, there are only two while there are like 4 melee fighters. Two monk,s a fighter, and a rogue. and 2 Wizards.
Switching between styles? I never thought that could work at all, I thought I needed to be restricted to one Fighting Style for the most part.
You are right. You do need to choose one fighting style and stick with it (though, per Tasha's, if you use the optional rule, you can opt to change your fighting style when you hit a level where you gain an ASI). What I'd meant is more, carry around something like a sword, shield and glaive. Then see which one ends up working better for you. It's not easy to switch during a fight, but try a couple with each one and see. You can always take something like the defensive style. and then if you decide you want to switch out to great weapon or dueling, do that at level 4. Or just keep defensive, because a +1 to AC is never a bad idea.
Tasha's Fighting Style switch doesn't seem to be enabled for the paladin. I don't think he's allowing that, unfortunately. It's fine, however.
Yeah, I think I'll try carrying a sword, shield, and glaive. Glaive is probably my favorite reach two handed weapon, the idea of a Minotaur paladin wielding a MASSIVE polearm similar to the naginata could definitely be extremely terrifying. I'll try out both styles and see what works best. Thank you so much!
Oh wow, this is a lot more complicated than I thought. I didn't think both styles suited the Conquest Paladin so well, I thought one was strictly better over the other. I think I'm leaning into using glaive for the reason you described, although Shield Master knocks enemies prone, meaning at all times you have advantage when you're near them and they will always have disadvantage against you.
Yeah, I don't think I'll use a whip. While it thematically works with the class as a sort of Paladin who captures his foes and terrifies them through different torture methods, that's way too evil, and works better as a oathbreaker or Hell Knight, the evil Conquest paladins who serve Bel as the general of Avernus. Kinda sucks that he lost that position to Zariel, his strategies work better than brute force, IMO.
I'm still kinda concerned about about Great Weapon Fighting, since from the guides I've read it's the worst Fighting Style, because it barely adds any damage compared to dueling with a Warhammer and Shield.
You do have a good point, Conquest paladins value strength above all else, so that they must deal overwhelming victory. I'll try experimenting with both styles and see what works. Thank you!
Yea Great Weapon Fighting is a pretty average fighting style. I would probably go Defense fighting style to help make up for the loss of a shield if you are using Heavy 2H Weapons.
Oh, I think I've seen that in the drop-down, I can get stuff like Sacred Flame or Guidance! I'll be considering that too, thank you for bringing it up.
PAM and other bonus action granting feats have stiff competition on a Conquest Paladin in the form of Spiritual Weapon. I would weigh the value of a feat like PAM versus how much you want to lean on Spiritual Weapon as your bonus action and source of consistent extra damage. If you end up liking the spiritual weapon routine then something like PAM is going to feel out of place, but there's nothing wrong with spending your second level slots on other stuff while you lean on PAM for your bonus action. Something to consider before settling on the Glaive.
Considering the Conquest Paladin already incentivizes charisma more than most other paladin subclasses, I would absolutely consider picking up Blessed Warrior as the fighting style (honestly, I think this is a very strong pick for all paladins). Picking up a solid ranged option or two in the form of Toll the Dead/Sacred Flame is really nice for fleshing out the paladin kit. They're notoriously lacking in the ranged department and having a decent scaling option is really nice tactically. Just because you want to get in everyone's faces all the time doesn't mean you'll be able to, y'know?
Hmm, PAM and Spiritual Weapon look really good, but considering on what you said, they can't be matched together. That's a tough choice to be honest, Spiritual Weapon is like Shillelagh but ranged which sounds essential for the Paladin if they want to capitalize of damage, but PAM allows you to make an extra attack that still works with the modifier for the first attack. YOu also get an opportunity attack against melee fighters who enter your range. Ah, it's so complicated!
I am definitely picking Blessed Warrior, since you can get cantrips that cover you in the ranged department. Would Blessed Warrior invalidate Spiritual Weapon, since through this style Sacred Flame and Toll the Dead are available to you? It could also go nicely with Reach Weapons, in my opinion, since you have like 70 feet of range combined all-together.
Why can't PAM and Spiritual Weapon be matched together? You can't use them at the same time but you can certainly take them both. You use PAM's bonus attack for melee and Spiritual Weapon for ranged attacks because like HeironymusZot says you won't be able to get in everybody's face all the time. Also Blessed Warrior would not invalidate Spiritual Weapon because you can use them both on the same turn since the cantrip uses your action while Spiritual Weapon uses your bonus action.
I mean yeah, you can use PAM and Spiritual Weapon on the same build. There's nothing expressly forbidding it, and I would never tell someone they can't do it. But I will warn that there is overlap with the bonus action and thus PAM can lose a lot of its value. Remember, Spiritual Weapon uses that same bonus action ThelonelyMagi. Sure, you can keep PAM on the build mostly for the reaction attack, but the competition in the bonus action slot is not ideal and definitely something to consider. But, as I said before, there are other compelling uses for your second level slots (I personally love find steed, although the flavor of a minotaur riding a horse is...odd 😜), and you also don't necessarily have enough second level slots for every combat in a day. So even on a conquest paladin with more competition than most paladins, PAM is still a great option to consider. If you're going to lean real hard into spiritual weapon, then it loses a good deal of value, but is not some worthless option by any stretch.
Blessed Warrior definitely doesn't invalidate Spiritual Weapon at all sneakboi69. In fact, it makes for a really nice ranged routine because the cantrip takes your action and spiritual weapon fills your bonus action.
I know this a bit close to non-advice when you're looking for mechanical input, but I recommend picking whatever weapon paints the best picture in your head. What weapon do you see this Minotaur wielding? What weapon gets you the most jazzed about this badass oxman you're about to play? Because Paladin is a very forgiving class (it's just so good), and Conquest Paladin in particular will have your back if you don't pick up a use for your bonus action with a particular weapon approach thanks to spiritual weapon.
Oh I totally agree with the overlap of PAM and Spiritual Weapon for your bonus action. I was suggesting that he can take PAM and use that as his primary bonus action and only breaking out Spiritual Weapon against foes he cannot reach.
Oh gotcha. Looking back it's pretty clear that's what you were communicating I just read it funny. Muh B. I definitely agree that's a good approach. Spell slots don't grow on trees for Paladins and having a consistent, no resource bonus action to lean on is definitely a good thing. Not feeling beholden to spiritual weapon to fill out the combat routine will be freeing to a certain degree and that's great too.
Oh, now I see. So if I have to deal with enemy spellcasters, just bust out Spiritual Weapon and watch as they get cleaved apart by a magic glaive. Although I realize now that Baphomet carries a glaive called Heart-cleaver, and a LOT of other evil entities use the glaive too. How ironic, considering that my Minotaur despises his agents for the near destruction of his city. (he was on City Watch, but did retire and swear an Oath to become a Paladin.)
I also figured out that with a bonus action you can send the magic weapon an additional 20 feet, meaning I can have 90 FEET OF RANGE. Holy crap. That sounds so broken.
You could always go halberd if the glaive's connection to evil uber entities is overly troublesome. They're the same statistically. I don't know about you but I think halberds are super badass. The naginata is one of my favorite historical weapons ever, so I love glaives too, but man is the halberd a cool one. Something to consider if the flavor of the glaive keeps nagging at you.
Spiritual Weapon is a great spell, but I don't think it's broken. Bonus action casting with no concentration is so sweet. Chef's kiss level of sweet. Just don't be surprised when you get caught with a frustrating lack of movement. That 20 feet isn't always enough to get to the next target or follow one that's trying to run from it. Regardless, it will absolutely be a workhorse of a spell.
I also figured out that with a bonus action you can send the magic weapon an additional 20 feet, meaning I can have 90 FEET OF RANGE. Holy crap. That sounds so broken.
The range on spiritual weapon is 60’. It can’t be further than that from you. Also, while you can flavor it to look like a polearm if you like, it won’t actually be one. It only has a 5’ range, not reach.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Hello. I've recently made a Minotaur Paladin, and I plan for him to take the Oath of Conquest. With this idea in mind, should I go Sword and Board for a mix of offense and defense, or One Handed, for absolute damage? Thanks in advance!
As a Conqueror, you're naturally going to fall more into a control/tank/support kind of role, since your biggest signature feature, the Aura of Conquest, only works if you've already frightened a target, which means you need to prioritize your charisma score and concentration saves in order to land and hold those frighten effects, which in turn means you're also going to have slightly worse weapon attacks but slightly better spellcasting and support abilities like Aura of Protection than typical paladins.
So you're looking at a tanky support role, and a need to avoid as many incoming attacks as possible in order to not have to make unnecessary concentration saves. For this reason, you'd really like to use a shield.
However, as a controlly tank you really want to be able to control an area around you, and in particular you'd like to be able to attack enemies trapped by your aura of conquest without having to move into melee possible since that will leave trapped melee enemies with no body to attack at all. For this reason, you'd really like to use a reach weapon, even if as a Conqueror you usually won't have room for the Polearm Master feat in your build.
Finally, for all your support and control abilities, at the end of the day you're still a martial class, and weapon attacks are still going to make up the overwhelming majority of your actions in the overwhelming majority of combats throughout your career. Base weapon damage may not seem like it matters that much, but it does add up, and you're already letting your damage output slide a bit to prioritize your frighten effects. Mediocre damage output is ok since as a paladin you can turn it up when you need to, but bad damage is bad. As such, you'd really like to use a weapon with at least decent base damage dice.
So there are three priorities when selecting weapons for your conqueror - defense, reach, and damage - and as is so often the case in such situations you can only have two. This leads to three different optimal weapon choices:
1. defense plus damage - any one handed weapon with d8 damage die that can be wielded along with a shield. Longsword, Warhammer, that sort of thing. The rapier is one of these that even works with dex builds
2. damage plus reach - any of the two handed reach weapons with d10 damage die - Halberd, Glaive, or Pike. Note that this option is not available to dex primary conquest paladins, where the other two are.
3. reach plus defense - the whip is the singular one handed weapon in 5e with reach, allowing you to use it with a shield. It's even a finesse weapon, so dex builds can use it. Unfortunately the d4 damage die is pretty bad.
Any of the above can be considered optimal for a Conquest Paladin. In fact, since your early ASIs are likely going into maxing out charisma and taking either War Caster or Resilient to shore up your concentration saves, you probably aren't taking any feats that would lock you into a particular set of weapon options. Even if you do somehow have some available feats, other options like raising your weapon attack stat or improving your tanking and support abilities with feats like Sentinel, Inspiring Leader, or Alert are still probably higher priorities to you than the typical weapon damage feats like Polearm Master or Great Weapon Master. Defense is probably your best fighting style chocie as well, which works with any of the above, as does Blind Fighting or Blessed Warrior if you want a more interesting style.
As such, you should feel free to switch between these options as you like. Have a weapon from each category that you can switch between as necessary. At the very least, purchase and keep a spare whip if you otherwise fight with sword & board, or a spare Rapier or Warhammer if you usually fight with a whip. And if you happen to find a cool magic weapon, you can go ahead and use it, even if it's a different kind of weapon from what you were using before.
Conquerors are, after all, typically pragmatic types. Not overly prone to sentiment, not particularly concerned with image or style. They value strength above all, and will think nothing of abandoning a trusty weapon that has served them well if a better alternative comes along.
I'm going to assume you meant two-handed for damage. The big factor is going to be the rest of the party. If they're all squishy, you should go sword and board so you can be better at soaking enemy attacks. If there's other melee types up next to you, then two-handed can work.
Switching back and forth, as secption suggests, is a good option too. At least in the early levels while you are trying to see how the party will come together. Then once you land on a style that works better for you, start taking feats to compliment it.
Oh yeah, I meant two-handed, sorry! The party is almost completely devoid of spellcasters, there are only two while there are like 4 melee fighters. Two monk,s a fighter, and a rogue. and 2 Wizards.
Switching between styles? I never thought that could work at all, I thought I needed to be restricted to one Fighting Style for the most part.
You are right. You do need to choose one fighting style and stick with it (though, per Tasha's, if you use the optional rule, you can opt to change your fighting style when you hit a level where you gain an ASI). What I'd meant is more, carry around something like a sword, shield and glaive. Then see which one ends up working better for you. It's not easy to switch during a fight, but try a couple with each one and see. You can always take something like the defensive style. and then if you decide you want to switch out to great weapon or dueling, do that at level 4. Or just keep defensive, because a +1 to AC is never a bad idea.
Tasha's Fighting Style switch doesn't seem to be enabled for the paladin. I don't think he's allowing that, unfortunately. It's fine, however.
Yeah, I think I'll try carrying a sword, shield, and glaive. Glaive is probably my favorite reach two handed weapon, the idea of a Minotaur paladin wielding a MASSIVE polearm similar to the naginata could definitely be extremely terrifying. I'll try out both styles and see what works best. Thank you so much!
Oh wow, this is a lot more complicated than I thought. I didn't think both styles suited the Conquest Paladin so well, I thought one was strictly better over the other. I think I'm leaning into using glaive for the reason you described, although Shield Master knocks enemies prone, meaning at all times you have advantage when you're near them and they will always have disadvantage against you.
Yeah, I don't think I'll use a whip. While it thematically works with the class as a sort of Paladin who captures his foes and terrifies them through different torture methods, that's way too evil, and works better as a oathbreaker or Hell Knight, the evil Conquest paladins who serve Bel as the general of Avernus. Kinda sucks that he lost that position to Zariel, his strategies work better than brute force, IMO.
I'm still kinda concerned about about Great Weapon Fighting, since from the guides I've read it's the worst Fighting Style, because it barely adds any damage compared to dueling with a Warhammer and Shield.
You do have a good point, Conquest paladins value strength above all else, so that they must deal overwhelming victory. I'll try experimenting with both styles and see what works. Thank you!
Yea Great Weapon Fighting is a pretty average fighting style. I would probably go Defense fighting style to help make up for the loss of a shield if you are using Heavy 2H Weapons.
I'll most likely take Defense anyway, but I have some time until the campaign is going to start, so I'll be thinking about what style to use.
Another good fighting style for the Paladin is Blessed Warrior for a couple of cantrips.
Oh, I think I've seen that in the drop-down, I can get stuff like Sacred Flame or Guidance! I'll be considering that too, thank you for bringing it up.
PAM and other bonus action granting feats have stiff competition on a Conquest Paladin in the form of Spiritual Weapon. I would weigh the value of a feat like PAM versus how much you want to lean on Spiritual Weapon as your bonus action and source of consistent extra damage. If you end up liking the spiritual weapon routine then something like PAM is going to feel out of place, but there's nothing wrong with spending your second level slots on other stuff while you lean on PAM for your bonus action. Something to consider before settling on the Glaive.
Considering the Conquest Paladin already incentivizes charisma more than most other paladin subclasses, I would absolutely consider picking up Blessed Warrior as the fighting style (honestly, I think this is a very strong pick for all paladins). Picking up a solid ranged option or two in the form of Toll the Dead/Sacred Flame is really nice for fleshing out the paladin kit. They're notoriously lacking in the ranged department and having a decent scaling option is really nice tactically. Just because you want to get in everyone's faces all the time doesn't mean you'll be able to, y'know?
Hmm, PAM and Spiritual Weapon look really good, but considering on what you said, they can't be matched together. That's a tough choice to be honest, Spiritual Weapon is like Shillelagh but ranged which sounds essential for the Paladin if they want to capitalize of damage, but PAM allows you to make an extra attack that still works with the modifier for the first attack. YOu also get an opportunity attack against melee fighters who enter your range. Ah, it's so complicated!
I am definitely picking Blessed Warrior, since you can get cantrips that cover you in the ranged department. Would Blessed Warrior invalidate Spiritual Weapon, since through this style Sacred Flame and Toll the Dead are available to you? It could also go nicely with Reach Weapons, in my opinion, since you have like 70 feet of range combined all-together.
Why can't PAM and Spiritual Weapon be matched together? You can't use them at the same time but you can certainly take them both. You use PAM's bonus attack for melee and Spiritual Weapon for ranged attacks because like HeironymusZot says you won't be able to get in everybody's face all the time. Also Blessed Warrior would not invalidate Spiritual Weapon because you can use them both on the same turn since the cantrip uses your action while Spiritual Weapon uses your bonus action.
I mean yeah, you can use PAM and Spiritual Weapon on the same build. There's nothing expressly forbidding it, and I would never tell someone they can't do it. But I will warn that there is overlap with the bonus action and thus PAM can lose a lot of its value. Remember, Spiritual Weapon uses that same bonus action ThelonelyMagi. Sure, you can keep PAM on the build mostly for the reaction attack, but the competition in the bonus action slot is not ideal and definitely something to consider. But, as I said before, there are other compelling uses for your second level slots (I personally love find steed, although the flavor of a minotaur riding a horse is...odd 😜), and you also don't necessarily have enough second level slots for every combat in a day. So even on a conquest paladin with more competition than most paladins, PAM is still a great option to consider. If you're going to lean real hard into spiritual weapon, then it loses a good deal of value, but is not some worthless option by any stretch.
Blessed Warrior definitely doesn't invalidate Spiritual Weapon at all sneakboi69. In fact, it makes for a really nice ranged routine because the cantrip takes your action and spiritual weapon fills your bonus action.
I know this a bit close to non-advice when you're looking for mechanical input, but I recommend picking whatever weapon paints the best picture in your head. What weapon do you see this Minotaur wielding? What weapon gets you the most jazzed about this badass oxman you're about to play? Because Paladin is a very forgiving class (it's just so good), and Conquest Paladin in particular will have your back if you don't pick up a use for your bonus action with a particular weapon approach thanks to spiritual weapon.
Oh I totally agree with the overlap of PAM and Spiritual Weapon for your bonus action. I was suggesting that he can take PAM and use that as his primary bonus action and only breaking out Spiritual Weapon against foes he cannot reach.
Oh gotcha. Looking back it's pretty clear that's what you were communicating I just read it funny. Muh B. I definitely agree that's a good approach. Spell slots don't grow on trees for Paladins and having a consistent, no resource bonus action to lean on is definitely a good thing. Not feeling beholden to spiritual weapon to fill out the combat routine will be freeing to a certain degree and that's great too.
Oh, now I see. So if I have to deal with enemy spellcasters, just bust out Spiritual Weapon and watch as they get cleaved apart by a magic glaive. Although I realize now that Baphomet carries a glaive called Heart-cleaver, and a LOT of other evil entities use the glaive too. How ironic, considering that my Minotaur despises his agents for the near destruction of his city. (he was on City Watch, but did retire and swear an Oath to become a Paladin.)
I also figured out that with a bonus action you can send the magic weapon an additional 20 feet, meaning I can have 90 FEET OF RANGE. Holy crap. That sounds so broken.
You could always go halberd if the glaive's connection to evil uber entities is overly troublesome. They're the same statistically. I don't know about you but I think halberds are super badass. The naginata is one of my favorite historical weapons ever, so I love glaives too, but man is the halberd a cool one. Something to consider if the flavor of the glaive keeps nagging at you.
Spiritual Weapon is a great spell, but I don't think it's broken. Bonus action casting with no concentration is so sweet. Chef's kiss level of sweet. Just don't be surprised when you get caught with a frustrating lack of movement. That 20 feet isn't always enough to get to the next target or follow one that's trying to run from it. Regardless, it will absolutely be a workhorse of a spell.
The range on spiritual weapon is 60’. It can’t be further than that from you.
Also, while you can flavor it to look like a polearm if you like, it won’t actually be one. It only has a 5’ range, not reach.