What is the problem with them being manifested until you dismiss them? If used in melee you still have it in hand, if thrown it remanifests on your next turn.
Anecdotally, I've seen people on the internet claim they houserule their Psychic Blades to be always-on, allowing them to interact with the rest of the game, and those same people claim there's no balance issue, it just makes Psychic Blades as good as everyone wants them to be.
And that is exactly how we are going to rule my psychic blade (provided I get to do the quest/training to get them). Here's an excerpt of my homebrew "Dagger":
As an action, you use your psychic power to manifest blades in your free hands and make an attack. Those are replicas of daggers you know or have been attuned with, along with their magical, finesse and thrown properties. They stay manifested as long as you do not dismiss them.
The blade vanishes immediately after it hits or misses its target, and it leaves no mark on its target if it deals damage. If the dagger has an additional effect that needs it to be left on the target, you can choose to leave it there, otherwise you make it vanish and reappear in your free hand as a free action.
After you attack with the blade, you can make a melee or ranged weapon attack with a second psychic blade as a bonus action on the same turn. You do not apply your proficiency modifier to your off-hand attacks.
We have added a few more stuff - I'll probably publish my homebrew once we have some play test done with it - but that's the base of it. Similar to the Booming Blade cantrip, you manifest blades AND attack (range or melee, your choice - that's one difference to those cantrips). It lasts until dismissed, so you would keep an invisible blade "in hand" if you want. And it's kind of a "returning" blade, if you wish for it (for those "teleport" blades, kinda needed that rules there).
You could still flavour that they are invisible (since RAW they are), but that if you were to touch the blade, you would "feel" the blade, since it IS there, armed and ready...
You could still flavour that they are invisible (since RAW they are), but that if you were to touch the blade, you would "feel" the blade, since it IS there, armed and ready...
RAW they aren't invisible, but there are two radically different possible appearances for them, because "shimmer" has two wildly distinct meanings: shimmer as in mirage is a lot harder to see than shimmer as in star. I've 100% met people who use the star interpretation, which makes soulknives unplayable or borderline unplayable.
Approximately speaking, this is the text permanent psychic blades need, without introducing benefits above and beyond permanency (e.g. without introducing the ability to treat found magic daggers as psychic blades or whatever):
You can manifest a psychic blade as part of the attack you make with the weapon or up to 2 psychic blades as an action, bonus action, or item interaction. Blades vanish immediately after hitting or missing the target of an attack, leaving no mark; you choose whether a vanished blade returns to your hand immediately. You can have up to 2 blades manifested at once; if you attempt to manifest a third, one of the pre-existing ones (ordinarily your choice, but your DM can decide for you if they deem it appropriate) vanishes immediately prior to the manifestation.
The blades have the light property, and if used for two-weapon fighting, you can apply your ability score modifier to the bonus action attack. However, the blades only deal 1d4 psychic damage when used in an attack as part of a bonus action.
A substantially more powerful buff would be giving soulknives the ability to upgrade any daggers they find to have psychic blade stats, as now they can acquire magic daggers to apply the ability to.
RAW they aren't invisible, but there are two radically different possible appearances for them, because "shimmer" has two wildly distinct meanings: shimmer as in mirage is a lot harder to see than shimmer as in star. I've 100% met people who use the star interpretation, which makes soulknives unplayable or borderline unplayable.
Hmm, you are right. Since they left no mark on the target, I figured they were immaterial, which they are. But immaterial doesn't automatically mean invisible, indeed.
The version I (will) use is meant to reproduce existing daggers (their appearance and properties) in order to camouflage the actual nature of the skill, as it's supposed to stay secret... So that is why, in our settings, there are some other benefits. The mechanical way to do it RAW without the soulknife flavouring would be with a belt of returning and a couple daggers. We merely merged the psychic blades with the returning property in order for the damage to scale a bit (again, akin to cantrips that includes an attack).
I would just change the wording a bit. Instead of:
"Whenever you take the Attack action, you can manifest a psychic blade from your free hand and make the attack with that blade."
I would reword it to say:
"Whenever you make a weapon attack, you can manifest a psychic blade from your free hand and make the attack with that blade."
Thing is, if you have nothing in your hands, it wouldn't be a weapon attack but an unarmed attack. (Edit : Unarmed strikes are weapon attacks) Whereas declaring that you take the Attack action lets you manifests the blades... I guess you could reword it to give the blade a duration (lasts until the end of your turn? or beginning of your next turn for OAs)....
Thing is, if you have nothing in your hands, it wouldn't be a weapon attack but an unarmed attack. Whereas declaring that you take the Attack action lets you manifests the blades...
You are right, thanks for letting me know. Edited the post to reflect that :D
My point on duration could still valid though. But since you could theoretically manifest blades as part of the OAs, wouldn't be needed for that. It would still be useful for features that requires a melee weapon in hand, like Riposte or Dueling maybe? I can't think of another right now...
I have discussed this with my DM and he likes this.
"You can manifest a psychic blade from your free hand and make an attack with this blade. This magic blade is a simple melee weapon with the finesse and thrown properties. It has a normal range of 60 feet and no long range, and on a hit, it deals psychic damage equal to 1d6 plus the ability modifier you used for the attack roll and it leaves no mark on its target. A psychic blade used for a ranged attack vanishes immediately after it hits or misses its target.
After you attack with the blade, you can make a melee or ranged weapon attack with a second psychic blade as a bonus action on the same turn, provided your other hand is free to create it. The damage die of this bonus attack is 1d4 plus the ability modifier you used for the attack roll."
His game has firearms, very rarely, and typically only as a magic item or a weapon of some rich and powerful NPC. My character has seem them in action. We are going to play test them were I can manifest one or both as a dagger for melee or as a pistol if I am specifically manefesting it as a ranged weapon. If I get to level 9 I can do the Wanted curved shot : ).
I think it’s important to note, Psychic Blade has “finesse, thrown, and range 60ft.” (Which appears to be an error in the template on the character sheet.
Not “finesse and thrown with range.”
that means the error claims it is a finesse weapon, thrown weapon, and ranged weapon. With a range of 60ft.
if you compare it to a dagger or hand axe, those are melee weapons with a thrown property. A dart is a ranged weapon with finesse and thrown properties. A psychic blade is all of them. It’s not an actual knife/dagger, it’s a psychic dart with a melee property.
It benefits from archery like a dart and fighting style thrown weapon. You can use it with dueling as well.
the template needs fixed so it doesn’t benefit from archery fighting style or other feats and features that interact with ranged weapons.
I think it’s important to note, Psychic Blade has “finesse, thrown, and range 60ft.”
Not “finesse and thrown with range.”
that means it is a finesse weapon, thrown weapon, and ranged weapon. With a range of 60ft.
if you compare it to a dagger or hand axe, those are melee weapons with a thrown property. A dart is a ranged weapon with finesse and thrown properties. A psychic blade is all of them. It’s not an actual knife/dagger, it’s a psychic dart with a melee property.
It benefits from archery like a dart and fighting style thrown weapon. You can use it with dueling as well.
No. It is not a ranged weapon. It cannot benefit from the Archery fighting style. You can however stack the Dueling and Thrown Weapon fighting styles.
Psychic Blades
Also at 3rd level, You can manifest your psionic power as shimmering blades of psychic energy. Whenever you take the Attack action, you can manifest a psychic blade from your free hand and make the attack with that blade. This magic blade is a simple melee weapon with the finesse and thrown properties. It has a normal range of 60 feet and no long range, and on a hit, it deals psychic damage equal to 1d6 plus the ability modifier you used for the attack roll. The blade vanishes immediately after it hits or misses its target, and it leaves no mark on its target if it deals damage.
After you attack with the blade, you can make a melee or ranged weapon attack with a second psychic blade as a bonus action on the same turn, provided your other hand is free to create it. The damage die of this bonus attack is 1d4, instead of 1d6.
I think it’s important to note, Psychic Blade has “finesse, thrown, and range 60ft.” (Which appears to be an error in the template on the character sheet.
Not “finesse and thrown with range.”
that means the error claims it is a finesse weapon, thrown weapon, and ranged weapon. With a range of 60ft.
if you compare it to a dagger or hand axe, those are melee weapons with a thrown property. A dart is a ranged weapon with finesse and thrown properties. A psychic blade is all of them. It’s not an actual knife/dagger, it’s a psychic dart with a melee property.
It benefits from archery like a dart and fighting style thrown weapon. You can use it with dueling as well.
the template needs fixed so it doesn’t benefit from archery fighting style or other feats and features that interact with ranged weapons.
It just means that it has Thrown (60ft), not that it's a Ranged weapon. It is very explicitly not a ranged weapon.
Something to think on is that the psychic blades are some of the best torture devices in game.
Just think you capture an enemy and ask have you ever felt what's it like to have your fingers cut off. Proceed to cut through fingers they feel the pain but no damage. Just rinse and repeat untill they talk.
Something to think on is that the psychic blades are some of the best torture devices in game.
Just think you capture an enemy and ask have you ever felt what's it like to have your fingers cut off. Proceed to cut through fingers they feel the pain but no damage. Just rinse and repeat untill they talk.
Very dark I know but it's something very doable
I think it's in the very nature of the psychic type damage they deal. And Soulknives with their Psychic Blades are one of the good tools for infiltration, making them pretty useful for spy.
You might need to slightly heal your target repetitively if they drop below 1HP to keep them conscious... I agree, it's dark, but if it is accepted around your table, no one would argue otherwise! :D
Something to think on is that the psychic blades are some of the best torture devices in game.
Just think you capture an enemy and ask have you ever felt what's it like to have your fingers cut off. Proceed to cut through fingers they feel the pain but no damage. Just rinse and repeat untill they talk.
Very dark I know but it's something very doable
I am picturing the Test of Humanity from Dune. Victim puts hand in box and feels the fingers being cut off, but can't see that it is not happening.
I have had the scenario that you described, but with a real blade. After I cut off the second finger, he started screaming. I put the finger to his lips and told him "shhhhh..." Neutral evil can be quite fun.
Ehh... They're good enough to use and feel like a roguish telepath (with ranged attacks). They aren't incredible - but you get them at the same time as psi bolstered knack, which is. The bonus action attack is a second chance of triggering sneak attack.
Ultimately they enable certain character concepts while not significantly being power creep.
With a reasonable DM I think they're quite good. One of the first things we agreed to for my soulknife char was that I could also use the knives for opportunity attacks, because it's just silly for a char to be drawing and dropping a random dagger every turn when the whole flavor of the class is that this psychic power is some innate and supremely trained ability. Makes rounds go faster, feels cooler all around, and doesn't unbalance anything.
Sharpshooter not working because the blades are "simple melee weapons with the finesse and thrown properties" was something my DM looked at, said "well that's stupid", and then promptly overruled, and now I've got something to look forward to as I level up (with some fun flavor about basically "firing" a shot of psychic energy instead of throwing it). Still not insane range on them or anything, but I'm super looking forward to being able to combine SS with homing strike at level 9. :-D
I think RAW the knives are probably just decent (innate TWF, 60ft range and infinite ammo is def not "bad", and the OA lack is felt less than you might think for a very stealthy ranged rogue), but with even minimal amount of DM openness I think they're quite good. Adding OA's makes them very solid all around, and if the DM is willing to let you add sharpshooter, heck, then they become really good. You can probably (definitely?) optimize for better builds even with these allowances, but all in all I feel pretty strong running the blades exclusively.
i really wish they scaled its the main feature of the subclass you get them at 3rd how about at lvl 6 you get +1 pt of damage and at 9th it becomes a d8 at 12th its a d10 i mean come on it would represent the character becoming psychically stronger do to practice
i really wish they scaled its the main feature of the subclass you get them at 3rd how about at lvl 6 you get +1 pt of damage and at 9th it becomes a d8 at 12th its a d10 i mean come on it would represent the character becoming psychically stronger do to practice
You can always ask the DM for a scaling version... like the Fire Bolt or use multiple attack Eldritch Blast cantrip, but with the blade's damage die instead.
"At 5th level it deals 2d6, at 11th level it deals 3d6, at 17th level it deals 4d6."
The offhand would scale out of d4s. Wouldn't affect your "to-hit" chance though but using multiple attacks will multiply your sneak attack chance of triggering!
i really wish they scaled its the main feature of the subclass you get them at 3rd how about at lvl 6 you get +1 pt of damage and at 9th it becomes a d8 at 12th its a d10 i mean come on it would represent the character becoming psychically stronger do to practice
You can always ask the DM for a scaling version... like the Fire Bolt or use multiple attack Eldritch Blast cantrip, but with the blade's damage die instead.
"At 5th level it deals 2d6, at 11th level it deals 3d6, at 17th level it deals 4d6."
The offhand would scale out of d4s. Wouldn't affect your "to-hit" chance though but using multiple attacks will multiply your sneak attack chance of triggering!
This isn't really necessary because your Sneak Attack dice scale with level, and that is where the Rogues damage comes from (regardless of subclass). I could see it maybe getting a +1 to be on par with a +1 dagger, but the Psychic Blades already outpace daggers in range, damage, and the infinite nature of them. You can throw Psychic Blades all day long, whereas you would have to have a bandoleer of daggers and pick them up after encounters.
Soulknife is excellent in every way. In combat he does a lot of damage throwing his psychic dagger (if you use your steady aim bonus, you'll roll with advantage + sneak attack every turn. And if it's also an elf with elven accuracy, you'll roll with 3 dice). Additionally, he deals psychic damage which is one of the least resisted damages types in the game. Outside of combat you can add your psionic die to your ability checks, which, added to the rogue's expertise plus his large number of skills, ensures that you won't fail almost any ability check. But if that wasn't enough, you can also speak telepathically with your teammates. And all of that at 3rd level. At 9th level, you can teleport or add your psychic die to your failed attack rolls (with Sharpshooter this is wonderful). At 13th level you can turn invisible "for free" once, and then by spending a psi die.
It does everything a rogue is supposed to do, but better. It's as simple as that. There are other rogues that have other things that make them stand out, but the Soulknife, in the traditional role of a rogue, is the best IMO.
And that is exactly how we are going to rule my psychic blade (provided I get to do the quest/training to get them).
Here's an excerpt of my homebrew "Dagger":
We have added a few more stuff - I'll probably publish my homebrew once we have some play test done with it - but that's the base of it.
Similar to the Booming Blade cantrip, you manifest blades AND attack (range or melee, your choice - that's one difference to those cantrips).
It lasts until dismissed, so you would keep an invisible blade "in hand" if you want.
And it's kind of a "returning" blade, if you wish for it (for those "teleport" blades, kinda needed that rules there).
You could still flavour that they are invisible (since RAW they are), but that if you were to touch the blade, you would "feel" the blade, since it IS there, armed and ready...
Hyrkali
Full DNDBeyond.com in Dark Mode? Yes please!
RAW they aren't invisible, but there are two radically different possible appearances for them, because "shimmer" has two wildly distinct meanings: shimmer as in mirage is a lot harder to see than shimmer as in star. I've 100% met people who use the star interpretation, which makes soulknives unplayable or borderline unplayable.
Approximately speaking, this is the text permanent psychic blades need, without introducing benefits above and beyond permanency (e.g. without introducing the ability to treat found magic daggers as psychic blades or whatever):
A substantially more powerful buff would be giving soulknives the ability to upgrade any daggers they find to have psychic blade stats, as now they can acquire magic daggers to apply the ability to.
I would just change the wording a bit. Instead of:
"Whenever you take the Attack action, you can manifest a psychic blade from your free hand and make the attack with that blade."
I would reword it to say:
"Whenever you make a weapon attack, you can manifest a psychic blade from your free hand and make the attack with that blade."
That does a few things:
Hmm, you are right.
Since they left no mark on the target, I figured they were immaterial, which they are. But immaterial doesn't automatically mean invisible, indeed.
The version I (will) use is meant to reproduce existing daggers (their appearance and properties) in order to camouflage the actual nature of the skill, as it's supposed to stay secret... So that is why, in our settings, there are some other benefits. The mechanical way to do it RAW without the soulknife flavouring would be with a belt of returning and a couple daggers. We merely merged the psychic blades with the returning property in order for the damage to scale a bit (again, akin to cantrips that includes an attack).
That is true!
A little thing I didn't notice... Thanks for bringing this to attention.
Thing is, if you have nothing in your hands, it wouldn't be a weapon attack but an unarmed attack.(Edit : Unarmed strikes are weapon attacks) Whereas declaring that you take the Attack action lets you manifests the blades...I guess you could reword it to give the blade a duration (lasts until the end of your turn? or beginning of your next turn for OAs)....
Hyrkali
Full DNDBeyond.com in Dark Mode? Yes please!
Unarmed strikes are weapon attacks.
You are right, thanks for letting me know. Edited the post to reflect that :D
My point on duration could still valid though.
But since you could theoretically manifest blades as part of the OAs, wouldn't be needed for that. It would still be useful for features that requires a melee weapon in hand, like Riposte or Dueling maybe? I can't think of another right now...
Hyrkali
Full DNDBeyond.com in Dark Mode? Yes please!
I have discussed this with my DM and he likes this.
"You can manifest a psychic blade from your free hand and make an attack with this blade. This magic blade is a simple melee weapon with the finesse and thrown properties. It has a normal range of 60 feet and no long range, and on a hit, it deals psychic damage equal to 1d6 plus the ability modifier you used for the attack roll and it leaves no mark on its target. A psychic blade used for a ranged attack vanishes immediately after it hits or misses its target.
After you attack with the blade, you can make a melee or ranged weapon attack with a second psychic blade as a bonus action on the same turn, provided your other hand is free to create it. The damage die of this bonus attack is 1d4 plus the ability modifier you used for the attack roll."
His game has firearms, very rarely, and typically only as a magic item or a weapon of some rich and powerful NPC. My character has seem them in action. We are going to play test them were I can manifest one or both as a dagger for melee or as a pistol if I am specifically manefesting it as a ranged weapon. If I get to level 9 I can do the Wanted curved shot : ).
I think it’s important to note, Psychic Blade has “finesse, thrown, and range 60ft.” (Which appears to be an error in the template on the character sheet.
Not “finesse and thrown with range.”
that means the error claims it is a finesse weapon, thrown weapon, and ranged weapon. With a range of 60ft.
if you compare it to a dagger or hand axe, those are melee weapons with a thrown property. A dart is a ranged weapon with finesse and thrown properties. A psychic blade is all of them. It’s not an actual knife/dagger, it’s a psychic dart with a melee property.
It benefits from archery like a dart and fighting style thrown weapon. You can use it with dueling as well.
the template needs fixed so it doesn’t benefit from archery fighting style or other feats and features that interact with ranged weapons.
No. It is not a ranged weapon. It cannot benefit from the Archery fighting style. You can however stack the Dueling and Thrown Weapon fighting styles.
Psychic Blades
Also at 3rd level, You can manifest your psionic power as shimmering blades of psychic energy. Whenever you take the Attack action, you can manifest a psychic blade from your free hand and make the attack with that blade. This magic blade is a simple melee weapon with the finesse and thrown properties. It has a normal range of 60 feet and no long range, and on a hit, it deals psychic damage equal to 1d6 plus the ability modifier you used for the attack roll. The blade vanishes immediately after it hits or misses its target, and it leaves no mark on its target if it deals damage.
After you attack with the blade, you can make a melee or ranged weapon attack with a second psychic blade as a bonus action on the same turn, provided your other hand is free to create it. The damage die of this bonus attack is 1d4, instead of 1d6.
It just means that it has Thrown (60ft), not that it's a Ranged weapon. It is very explicitly not a ranged weapon.
Something to think on is that the psychic blades are some of the best torture devices in game.
Just think you capture an enemy and ask have you ever felt what's it like to have your fingers cut off. Proceed to cut through fingers they feel the pain but no damage. Just rinse and repeat untill they talk.
Very dark I know but it's something very doable
I think it's in the very nature of the psychic type damage they deal. And Soulknives with their Psychic Blades are one of the good tools for infiltration, making them pretty useful for spy.
You might need to slightly heal your target repetitively if they drop below 1HP to keep them conscious...
I agree, it's dark, but if it is accepted around your table, no one would argue otherwise! :D
Hyrkali
Full DNDBeyond.com in Dark Mode? Yes please!
The simple fix that needs to be added is that they can create psychic blades at will instead of on an attack action.
I am picturing the Test of Humanity from Dune. Victim puts hand in box and feels the fingers being cut off, but can't see that it is not happening.
I have had the scenario that you described, but with a real blade. After I cut off the second finger, he started screaming. I put the finger to his lips and told him "shhhhh..." Neutral evil can be quite fun.
Ehh... They're good enough to use and feel like a roguish telepath (with ranged attacks). They aren't incredible - but you get them at the same time as psi bolstered knack, which is. The bonus action attack is a second chance of triggering sneak attack.
Ultimately they enable certain character concepts while not significantly being power creep.
With a reasonable DM I think they're quite good. One of the first things we agreed to for my soulknife char was that I could also use the knives for opportunity attacks, because it's just silly for a char to be drawing and dropping a random dagger every turn when the whole flavor of the class is that this psychic power is some innate and supremely trained ability. Makes rounds go faster, feels cooler all around, and doesn't unbalance anything.
Sharpshooter not working because the blades are "simple melee weapons with the finesse and thrown properties" was something my DM looked at, said "well that's stupid", and then promptly overruled, and now I've got something to look forward to as I level up (with some fun flavor about basically "firing" a shot of psychic energy instead of throwing it). Still not insane range on them or anything, but I'm super looking forward to being able to combine SS with homing strike at level 9. :-D
I think RAW the knives are probably just decent (innate TWF, 60ft range and infinite ammo is def not "bad", and the OA lack is felt less than you might think for a very stealthy ranged rogue), but with even minimal amount of DM openness I think they're quite good. Adding OA's makes them very solid all around, and if the DM is willing to let you add sharpshooter, heck, then they become really good. You can probably (definitely?) optimize for better builds even with these allowances, but all in all I feel pretty strong running the blades exclusively.
i really wish they scaled its the main feature of the subclass you get them at 3rd how about at lvl 6 you get +1 pt of damage and at 9th it becomes a d8 at 12th its a d10 i mean come on it would represent the character becoming psychically stronger do to practice
You can always ask the DM for a scaling version... like the Fire Bolt or use multiple attack Eldritch Blast cantrip, but with the blade's damage die instead.
"At 5th level it deals 2d6, at 11th level it deals 3d6, at 17th level it deals 4d6."
The offhand would scale out of d4s. Wouldn't affect your "to-hit" chance though but using multiple attacks will multiply your sneak attack chance of triggering!
Hyrkali
Full DNDBeyond.com in Dark Mode? Yes please!
This isn't really necessary because your Sneak Attack dice scale with level, and that is where the Rogues damage comes from (regardless of subclass). I could see it maybe getting a +1 to be on par with a +1 dagger, but the Psychic Blades already outpace daggers in range, damage, and the infinite nature of them. You can throw Psychic Blades all day long, whereas you would have to have a bandoleer of daggers and pick them up after encounters.
Soulknife is excellent in every way. In combat he does a lot of damage throwing his psychic dagger (if you use your steady aim bonus, you'll roll with advantage + sneak attack every turn. And if it's also an elf with elven accuracy, you'll roll with 3 dice). Additionally, he deals psychic damage which is one of the least resisted damages types in the game.
Outside of combat you can add your psionic die to your ability checks, which, added to the rogue's expertise plus his large number of skills, ensures that you won't fail almost any ability check. But if that wasn't enough, you can also speak telepathically with your teammates.
And all of that at 3rd level. At 9th level, you can teleport or add your psychic die to your failed attack rolls (with Sharpshooter this is wonderful). At 13th level you can turn invisible "for free" once, and then by spending a psi die.
It does everything a rogue is supposed to do, but better. It's as simple as that. There are other rogues that have other things that make them stand out, but the Soulknife, in the traditional role of a rogue, is the best IMO.