And what happens when one person is seen and the others aren't? The rogue isn't spotted but the clanky paladin is. Are they surprised then? Because they are aware of "A" threat
Unless I am mistaken the clanky paladin removes surprise for the entire team. Fundamentally this is where party composition ruins the surprise seeker. In my last game we did great being sneaky and then two stealthy characters died and were replaced by two guys in plate. No more surprise. It wasn't even worth trying. Yep. Just looked it up. Its all or nothing. EVERYONE in the party needs to try to be stealthy. If one person doesn't try then there is no surprise. Second, then its stealth vs. passive perception. If you don't do group stealth then all it takes is one full plate guy with disadvantage not clearing a 10 and it blows surprise for everyone. If you do party stealth then its a different game.
And what happens when one person is seen and the others aren't? The rogue isn't spotted but the clanky paladin is. Are they surprised then? Because they are aware of "A" threat
Unless I am mistaken the clanky paladin removes surprise for the entire team. Fundamentally this is where party composition ruins the surprise seeker. In my last game we did great being sneaky and then two stealthy characters died and were replaced by two guys in plate. No more surprise. It wasn't even worth trying. Yep. Just looked it up. Its all or nothing. EVERYONE in the party needs to try to be stealthy. If one person doesn't try then there is no surprise. Second, then its stealth vs. passive perception. If you don't do group stealth then all it takes is one full plate guy with disadvantage not clearing a 10 and it blows surprise for everyone. If you do party stealth then its a different game.
And there in lies the problem. The situations where the entire team can be stealthy to that point are insanely rare. That might be how surprise works but I really think surprise needs to work reliably for a class that revolves around it. Whether that means that still getting surprise provided they are hidden at the start of combat
And what happens when one person is seen and the others aren't? The rogue isn't spotted but the clanky paladin is. Are they surprised then? Because they are aware of "A" threat
An enemy is only surprised if they do not spot any threat, so if the paladin with stealth disadvantage rolls poorly the chances are good that some or all of the enemies will spot them. It depends how your DM wants to run it though as it's a prime candidate for turning into some form of group check depending upon numbers.
But this is why you don't want heavily armoured fighters as part of your ambushers unless you can offset them somehow (e.g- Enhance Ability, Pass Without Trace etc.), otherwise you want them to hang back so they're not part of the surprise check. Again this should be part of normal play for any Rogue, Ranger etc.; you send your stealthiest characters first to spot enemies, find traps etc.
This is why the issue is more DM/group dependent because if either your party doesn't want to play smart, or your DM doesn't want to let you, then you've got bigger problems, as you're also arguably not playing 5e as intended.
I feel like there has been enough people to share their experiences with the wonkiness of the surprise system to suggest that maybe it is common enough experience that perhaps clarification or errata for the subclass would be beneficial.
I fail to see how it's a problem with the Assassin sub-class that some people don't realise what the first step of every combat is supposed to be. All I see are people who really need to brush up on how combat works. 😝
And what happens when one person is seen and the others aren't? The rogue isn't spotted but the clanky paladin is. Are they surprised then? Because they are aware of "A" threat
An enemy is only surprised if they do not spot any threat, so if the paladin with stealth disadvantage rolls poorly the chances are good that some or all of the enemies will spot them. It depends how your DM wants to run it though as it's a prime candidate for turning into some form of group check depending upon numbers.
But this is why you don't want heavily armoured fighters as part of your ambushers unless you can offset them somehow (e.g- Enhance Ability, Pass Without Trace etc.), otherwise you want them to hang back so they're not part of the surprise check. Again this should be part of normal play for any Rogue, Ranger etc.; you send your stealthiest characters first to spot enemies, find traps etc.
This is why the issue is more DM/group dependent because if either your party doesn't want to play smart, or your DM doesn't want to let you, then you've got bigger problems, as you're also arguably not playing 5e as intended.
I feel like there has been enough people to share their experiences with the wonkiness of the surprise system to suggest that maybe it is common enough experience that perhaps clarification or errata for the subclass would be beneficial.
I fail to see how it's a problem with the Assassin sub-class that some people don't realise what the first step of every combat is supposed to be. All I see are people who really need to brush up on how combat works. 😝
I hate the "you just don't understand it and that's why it doesn't work for you" mentally to people's experiences.
We fully understand what the text says but feel it's not descriptive enough to consistently work the way a subclass should.
It's fair to ask for an ability that works consistently and with a variety of parties.... Not just ones that are required to cast enhance ability and pass without trace for you to use your subclass.
I hate the "you just don't understand it and that's why it doesn't work for you" mentally to people's experiences.
Except that it's fully applicable; the combat section's first step is literally to determine surprise. If you have a DM/group that do not do this, then you're not playing D&D combat as intended; you're playing it with an entire step missing.
This might be fine in any group without characters that can take advantage of an ambush, but in any group that can you should be playing this properly; and for the hundredth time now, this is not just groups with an assassin. Any group with a Rogue or Ranger should be aiming to get surprise whenever possible, unless for some reason you specifically want to play a loud and brash version of one of these who never enter an area cautiously or try to take an enemy by surprise.
It's fair to ask for an ability that works consistently and with a variety of parties.... Not just ones that are required to cast enhance ability and pass without trace for you to use your subclass.
Enhance Ability/Pass Without Trace are not required they are options. Every party also has the option of letting its less stealthy characters hang back so you can still surprise enemies, please don't pretend that this is complicated, it really isn't.
Now obviously if your group or DM refuse to ever do combat properly then you're going to have a hard time getting a surprise round as an assassin, but that's not a fault of the subclass, that's a fault of your group/DM. Played properly, such a group should be getting surprised by the enemies instead, but no doubt they won't do that either, so they never have any consequences for ignoring the rules.
But this is no different to vanilla Rangers being hampered if your DM/group refuse to ever explore or do survival; these are legitimate parts of the game that are intended to be a part of it. Groups/DMs not bothering is nothing new, but pretending that that's the fault of the Ranger class for not pandering to their laziness is victim blaming. You can absolutely drop exploration/survival/surprise if your group has no characters that thrive upon it, but if you're dropping them when you do then you are choosing to cripple that character on purpose; that makes it your/your DM's/your group's fault.
I hate the "you just don't understand it and that's why it doesn't work for you" mentally to people's experiences.
Except that it's fully applicable; the combat section's first step is literally to determine surprise. If you have a DM/group that do not do this, then you're not playing D&D combat as intended; you're playing it with an entire step missing.
This might be fine in any group without characters that can take advantage of an ambush, but in any group that can you should be playing this properly; and for the hundredth time now, this is not just groups with an assassin. Any group with a Rogue or Ranger should be aiming to get surprise whenever possible, unless for some reason you specifically want to play a loud and brash version of one of these who never enter an area cautiously or try to take an enemy by surprise.
It's fair to ask for an ability that works consistently and with a variety of parties.... Not just ones that are required to cast enhance ability and pass without trace for you to use your subclass.
Enhance Ability/Pass Without Trace are not required they are options. Every party also has the option of letting its less stealthy characters hang back so you can still surprise enemies, please don't pretend that this is complicated, it really isn't.
Now obviously if your group or DM refuse to ever do combat properly then you're going to have a hard time getting a surprise round as an assassin, but that's not a fault of the subclass, that's a fault of your group/DM. Played properly, such a group should be getting surprised by the enemies instead, but no doubt they won't do that either, so they never have any consequences for ignoring the rules.
But this is no different to vanilla Rangers being hampered if your DM/group refuse to ever explore or do survival; these are legitimate parts of the game that are intended to be a part of it. Groups/DMs not bothering is nothing new, but pretending that that's the fault of the Ranger class for not pandering to their laziness is victim blaming. You can absolutely drop exploration/survival/surprise if your group has no characters that thrive upon it, but if you're dropping them when you do then you are choosing to cripple that character on purpose; that makes it your/your DM's/your group's fault.
I hate the "you just don't understand it and that's why it doesn't work for you" mentally to people's experiences.
Except that it's fully applicable; the combat section's first step is literally to determine surprise. If you have a DM/group that do not do this, then you're not playing D&D combat as intended; you're playing it with an entire step missing.
This might be fine in any group without characters that can take advantage of an ambush, but in any group that can you should be playing this properly; and for the hundredth time now, this is not just groups with an assassin. Any group with a Rogue or Ranger should be aiming to get surprise whenever possible, unless for some reason you specifically want to play a loud and brash version of one of these who never enter an area cautiously or try to take an enemy by surprise.
It's fair to ask for an ability that works consistently and with a variety of parties.... Not just ones that are required to cast enhance ability and pass without trace for you to use your subclass.
Enhance Ability/Pass Without Trace are not required they are options. Every party also has the option of letting its less stealthy characters hang back so you can still surprise enemies, please don't pretend that this is complicated, it really isn't.
Now obviously if your group or DM refuse to ever do combat properly then you're going to have a hard time getting a surprise round as an assassin, but that's not a fault of the subclass, that's a fault of your group/DM. Played properly, such a group should be getting surprised by the enemies instead, but no doubt they won't do that either, so they never have any consequences for ignoring the rules.
But this is no different to vanilla Rangers being hampered if your DM/group refuse to ever explore or do survival; these are legitimate parts of the game that are intended to be a part of it. Groups/DMs not bothering is nothing new, but pretending that that's the fault of the Ranger class for not pandering to their laziness is victim blaming. You can absolutely drop exploration/survival/surprise if your group has no characters that thrive upon it, but if you're dropping them when you do then you are choosing to cripple that character on purpose; that makes it your/your DM's/your group's fault.
Your whole thing is based on stuff the dm has to decide on. How far back is far enough? Is it far enough that they wouldn’t know if combat had started? Is it far enough that they have to give up their first round just getting in range? Because one person spotted means no surprise. And I don’t see any rules that dictate how far away someone has to be to not roll stealth checks? Because I’d bet it would be around 60-100ft based on sound alone. If people are trying to sneak cover to cover and line of sight is a factor… man how do you even quantify that.
the dm then gets carte Blanche to just make surprise for the assassin just not worth it. People just end up being too far away to Make the turns they spend catching up worth the hit. sure the ideal situation is you fish for surprise every round but what does that entail? Is that realistic? Is it consistent between dms? Can it be consistent? Can a subclass be significantly weakened if your party has anyone with heavy armour?
now if assassins got the chance to get surprise provided they were unseen at the start of combat… now we are talking. Now it’s something they can rely on that isn’t ruined by other characters. Because I do not believe an assassin couldn’t take advantage of people being distracted by a group of people, especially if they consider them a threat. Sounds a perfect time to strike
hell I would even say assassins should get an increased critical hit threshold if they are hidden and make an attack. Guarantee a crit on the first round if hidden. Increased crit chance when hidden subsequently.
Your whole thing is based on stuff the dm has to decide on. How far back is far enough? Is it far enough that they wouldn’t know if combat had started? Is it far enough that they have to give up their first round just getting in range? Because one person spotted means no surprise. And I don’t see any rules that dictate how far away someone has to be to not roll stealth checks? Because I’d bet it would be around 60-100ft based on sound alone. If people are trying to sneak cover to cover and line of sight is a factor… man how do you even quantify that.
That's what your DM is there for, to make these kinds of decisions.
The purpose of surprise is that the enemies being surprised should be a benefit to the ambushers (the rogues, rangers etc.), as that's the whole point of it; other characters who have to hang back may well not be able to do anything other than dash into effective range ready for round two, but that's to be expected for them hanging back so the stealthy characters can do their thing.
It shouldn't need to be specified in more detail because there are a whole bunch of different ways to potentially surprise an enemy including quietly approaching from behind, setting up an ambush in advance, using disguise and so-on. And that's for enemies you're aware of/expecting; a DM can also grant it to a party just for being prudent enough to have stealthy characters scout ahead in unknown areas, rather than just blundering in as a group (in which case it may be the enemies who get surprise against the party).
While it's the first step of combat, it's like an out-of-combat setup stage; your DM is here to facilitate these things.
the dm then gets carte Blanche to just make surprise for the assassin just not worth it.
Why would they? If your DM is going out of their way to ruin the game for one player then your problem is not with the sub-class. That would be like arguing that Wizards are terrible because your DM's campaign doesn't include magic or ever dungeon has an anti-magic field. Why would you blame a (sub-)class for the harmful actions of your DM?
If the arguments here are focused around "my DM is a total dick and/or hates me" then it should be pretty obvious where your problem actually lies. 😝
now if assassins got the chance to get surprise provided they were unseen at the start of combat… now we are talking. Now it’s something they can rely on that isn’t ruined by other characters. Because I do not believe an assassin couldn’t take advantage of people being distracted by a group of people, especially if they consider them a threat. Sounds a perfect time to strike
The assassin can already do this by going ahead of or otherwise separating from the group to spring their attack first; the party being a distraction can absolutely be a part of that, but the way surprise is structured it would be while the enemies are distracted readying to fight to the rest of the group. Again, this is why it's up to the DM as they're the ones who decide which characters need to roll what for surprise. As long as the assassin uses their bonus action to re-hide or otherwise remains hidden, then enemies have no choice to be distracted by the party rather than the assassin that's picking them off without being seen.
Even when surprise is interfered with by the party, the assassin still has a strong chance of getting first round advantage against most enemies, as the auto-crit is not their only feature.
This is factually not how this works. Surprise is if they are aware of “A” threat. Not the rogue. ANY threat. If it worked that they could be surprised by the assassin alone even if they were aware of the party. Different story. But RAW that’s not how it works.
you also haven’t answered how that is worth it either. So 2-4 members of the party spend a turn dashing. So one character gets a crit? And maybe a ranger if it exists gets a few shots? This is a problem. This is why the assassin needs to be able to set themselves up independent of the party. because again, there are NO rules covering how far away a party must be so the rogue gets this shot. It might even be more than one round to close the gap. It forces your team to play around you. It slows down the game. It makes others feel bad for ruining group stealth’s for you. And this could all be avoided by making the assassin able to surprise independently Of the party. Or remove the surprise requirement and just make it if they are hidden at the start of the combat
and the assassin cannot just pick people off unseen. If you make an attack, people become aware of your presence. Sure you can re-hide but people are going to know you are in the area. And if they go on ahead that’s fine. Scouting is one thing. But I really struggle to see the situation where a single crit from the rogue (outside of extremely min max builds) outdoes just the party getting a turn.
your whole anti magic field/wizard comparison don’t work either. Anti magic fields are costly and rare. They also affect multiple classes and people equally. The surprise round is crucial to the entire lot of the assassin. And just having specific teammates dramatically changes that. It’s not an environmental thing. It’s just a “you joined the wrong party” thing.
i have got to ask what is the problem with the assassin getting a quality of life buff? Something that makes their main feature more usable. Why are you against them having the ability to surprise independently or to make them get that first crit more consistently in some way? It’s their only combat ability until super late and the other two abilities are only useful in very very specific cases that may NEVER apply. Why not let them have their moment more consistently?
This is factually not how this works. Surprise is if they are aware of “A” threat. Not the rogue. ANY threat. If it worked that they could be surprised by the assassin alone even if they were aware of the party. Different story. But RAW that’s not how it works.
you also haven’t answered how that is worth it either. So 2-4 members of the party spend a turn dashing. So one character gets a crit? And maybe a ranger if it exists gets a few shots? This is a problem. This is why the assassin needs to be able to set themselves up independent of the party. because again, there are NO rules covering how far away a party must be so the rogue gets this shot. It might even be more than one round to close the gap. It forces your team to play around you. It slows down the game. It makes others feel bad for ruining group stealth’s for you. And this could all be avoided by making the assassin able to surprise independently Of the party. Or remove the surprise requirement and just make it if they are hidden at the start of the combat
and the assassin cannot just pick people off unseen. If you make an attack, people become aware of your presence. Sure you can re-hide but people are going to know you are in the area. And if they go on ahead that’s fine. Scouting is one thing. But I really struggle to see the situation where a single crit from the rogue (outside of extremely min max builds) outdoes just the party getting a turn.
your whole anti magic field/wizard comparison don’t work either. Anti magic fields are costly and rare. They also affect multiple classes and people equally. The surprise round is crucial to the entire lot of the assassin. And just having specific teammates dramatically changes that. It’s not an environmental thing. It’s just a “you joined the wrong party” thing.
i have got to ask what is the problem with the assassin getting a quality of life buff? Something that makes their main feature more usable. Why are you against them having the ability to surprise independently or to make them get that first crit more consistently in some way? It’s their only combat ability until super late and the other two abilities are only useful in very very specific cases that may NEVER apply. Why not let them have their moment more consistently?
The last part is the part I never get....its obvious that a fair amount of people would like to see an alternative option for the assassin at this point...why not give it a shot with a different ability? We have made changes to other published subclasses at this point....why not this one?
I mean make it the same ability but more reliable. Lean into WHY people play assassin. Hell I would go further and straight up get them to keep the abilities we have and add to the ones it already has. Make it work better with poisons. Let them make unique poisons. Let them remain hidden if they kill a target whilst hidden.
the assassin is such a fun class idea that is SO fiddly to really work. I have played one so many times and it’s just…. Cumbersome and unreliable unless a DM bends over backwards. Half it’s abilities only work in specific campaigns full stop.
so make what it has reliable. And add new abilities to the older ones. Ones that support the playstyle.
I mean make it the same ability but more reliable. Lean into WHY people play assassin. Hell I would go further and straight up get them to keep the abilities we have and add to the ones it already has. Make it work better with poisons. Let them make unique poisons. Let them remain hidden if they kill a target whilst hidden.
the assassin is such a fun class idea that is SO fiddly to really work. I have played one so many times and it’s just…. Cumbersome and unreliable unless a DM bends over backwards. Half it’s abilities only work in specific campaigns full stop.
so make what it has reliable. And add new abilities to the older ones. Ones that support the playstyle.
I feel like at one point they were going that way (Hence the prof. in poison kit) but decided it would be too complicated or something and backed out.
I think the subclass's biggest sin is....its just boring.
You can potentially do some good damage on the first turn....great so can the fighter with action surge or the gloomstalker ranger.
But thats pretty much all you get from the subclass until level 17.
The 9th and 14th level abilities are at best fluff.
9th level feature requires a full week of downtime....I have rarely if ever gotten that in game...especially one where we couldn't just use magic or some other in to make it work by 9th level.
The Actor feat is just better than the 14th level feature if you want to mimic things. (1 minute for Actor vs 3 hours for Assassin) to a creature for ADV on the deception check either way.
17th level is really the only feature that adds more value to the subclass that isnt just better handled by dipping into another class or simply picking up a better subclass.
I mean make it the same ability but more reliable. Lean into WHY people play assassin. Hell I would go further and straight up get them to keep the abilities we have and add to the ones it already has. Make it work better with poisons. Let them make unique poisons. Let them remain hidden if they kill a target whilst hidden.
the assassin is such a fun class idea that is SO fiddly to really work. I have played one so many times and it’s just…. Cumbersome and unreliable unless a DM bends over backwards. Half it’s abilities only work in specific campaigns full stop.
so make what it has reliable. And add new abilities to the older ones. Ones that support the playstyle.
I feel like at one point they were going that way (Hence the prof. in poison kit) but decided it would be too complicated or something and backed out.
I think the subclass's biggest sin is....its just boring.
You can potentially do some good damage on the first turn....great so can the fighter with action surge or the gloomstalker ranger.
But thats pretty much all you get from the subclass until level 17.
The 9th and 14th level abilities are at best fluff.
9th level feature requires a full week of downtime....I have rarely if ever gotten that in game...especially one where we couldn't just use magic or some other in to make it work by 9th level.
The Actor feat is just better than the 14th level feature if you want to mimic things. (1 minute for Actor vs 3 hours for Assassin) to a creature for ADV on the deception check either way.
17th level is really the only feature that adds more value to the subclass that isnt just better handled by dipping into another class or simply picking up a better subclass.
I will absolutely agree with you there. Which is why I really think a touch up isn’t too much to ask. Make the assassinate work reliably and consistently. Give them more ways to get it. give them additional means to do damage (poisons, increased critical strike chance, anything that leans itself to assassination style damage) whilst keeping the infiltration skills.
this could be such a fun class if they just weren’t so scared to lean into it and let it be powerful.
This is factually not how this works. Surprise is if they are aware of “A” threat. Not the rogue. ANY threat.
You don't need to roll for anyone that an enemy cannot reasonably perceive; if an ally is standing still (cannot be heard) out of direct line of sight (cannot be seen) then there is no reason for your DM to ask them to roll a stealth check. Your primary criticism of surprise was that the DM decides, but this is precisely why they decide, because they choose who rolls and who doesn't. You'll notice that the rule does not state "roll stealth checks for literally every creature in all of the multiverse, just in case an enemy somehow notices them".
This is the basic back and forth of how the vast majority of D&D works, so I'm not sure why I should have to explain this? It's no different from trying to persuade an NPC; if you can come up with a reasonable argument, your DM can decide who needs to roll what to deceive or convince them. Surely you're not going to argue that social checks in D&D are too vague because Wizards of the Coast didn't limit you to a specific list of lines your characters are allowed to say?
D&D is fundamentally a freeform RPG yet you're insisting that one feature must have concrete immutable rules that render it only usable in specific circumstances because… why? Because your DM hates you and wants you to fail? Why are you even arguing this? The DM may control your enemies, but their role in the game is not to be your enemy, it is to run the game; if your DM wants to deny a specific character the ability to use one of their sub-class features then your problem is not with the sub-class, but your terrible, terrible DM.
The only reasonable argument around surprise is that the player's handbook, or the dungeon master's guide could do with including a few specific examples for some common types of surprise (hiding in bushes, social ambush etc.); if that was the argument you were making I'd agree with you, but the rule is freeform for a reason, because it's simply not possible to account for every possible idea a party may have for an ambush.
Just take a look at some of the other suggestions; the assassin should get auto-crit if they're hidden in the first round? That's actually worse because it eliminates entire categories of surprise completely; in fact if you look at the assassin's other features you'll see that one of the types of surprise they're intended to excel at is deceiving their way into proximity to a target through social stealth so they can launch an attack having bypassed guards etc. entirely. Such a proposed change would actually make them worse at doing this, rather than being the potentially one hit killer assassins that they're designed to be.
So 2-4 members of the party spend a turn dashing. So one character gets a crit?
Why are you so determined to look at this backwards? One character (or several, in a decently mixed partly) get essentially a free turn; this is the whole point of surprise. With some additional work you can give this to the entire party, either by helping the less stealthy characters to hide as well (with Enhance Ability, Pass Without Trace etc.) or a better plan for how they can be concealed without being too far away. And if they have to run in on their first turn; so what? This is a turn that the combat wouldn't have otherwise had, because you've launched an ambush to trigger surprise, rather than just blundered loudly into range to fight an enemy that already knows you are there.
And ultimately all I'm doing is proposing that your groups actually play using the actual combat rules of D&D; I don't know why you're so determined that D&D be dumbed down by eliminating the entire first step of the combat rules? It's there for a reason. And if you're determined to not play using the rules that the sub-class was specifically designed to capitalise upon then that's your own fault, not the sub-class'.
and the assassin cannot just pick people off unseen. If you make an attack, people become aware of your presence. Sure you can re-hide but people are going to know you are in the area. And if they go on ahead that’s fine. Scouting is one thing. But I really struggle to see the situation where a single crit from the rogue (outside of extremely min max builds) outdoes just the party getting a turn.
The party still gets a turn, the ambushers get an extra one, and in the case of the assassin it can be one hell of a turn. The damage they can put out from a guaranteed auto-crit is huge, it can make the difference between facing an enemy group with spellcasting and facing one without, it can mean picking off individual guards without raising a general alarm.
And they absolutely can pick enemies off unseen; if the assassin is hidden when they auto-crit, then hidden again afterwards, then what exactly do you imagine the enemies saw? If they fail their perception checks to see the assassin then the assassin is unseen. The enemies may know that they are being picked off, they might even know there is an enemy nearby, but they don't know who, and they don't know where or how to find them. They can either waste their turns on making additional perception checks to find the assassin, or they can find any other enemies that they can see.
D&D is a game of imagination; why are you determined to invent obstacles but not to consider the advantages of properly employing what is once again literally the first rule of combat in D&D? The assassin sub-class is for playing a damned assassin, so play one.
But I'm getting sick of this; a sub-class is not at fault because you don't play using the rules it was designed for as they're supposed to be used. Once again that's like saying Wizards are bad in a campaign that doesn't allow magic; while it's technically true, it has nothing to do with the (sub-)class.
The assassin sub-class is for playing as an assassin; they are one of, if not the, best alpha strikers in the game; if you actually play the game using the rules you're supposed to. And this is true whether they strike through cunning in combat, or subterfuge out of combat. While they don't have any new combat features between 3rd and 17th, sneak attack progression is still combat progression for the assassin, as it's sneak attack that they have a much higher chance of getting (or doubling) in the first round. While again, I'd like a built in initiative boost (so there would be less need to take Alert using the Rogue's bonus ability score increase) it's not critical, and it's a perfectly well balanced sub-class when using the 5th edition ruleset as presented (not as bastardised by lazy DM's and players).
One could argue that if the other PC is not trying to be sneaky then they should be insta-spotted when initative is rolled....its even addressed in that section:
"If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other."
So I would interpret that (as has every DM I have played with) that if you are in combat range (DM dependent but roughly 30-60 ft) in order for ANYONE to get surprise you have to try to be sneaky and roll the stealth roll.
If not then you are automatically detected once initiative is rolled and thus no surprise.
One could argue that if the other PC is not trying to be sneaky then they should be insta-spotted when initative is rolled....its even addressed in that section:
We're not talking about two sides where neither is trying to be sneaky; we're talking about one side with ambushers sneaking into range while the rest hang back or are otherwise concealed ready for the ambush to occur.
If not then you are automatically detected once initiative is rolled and thus no surprise.
This literally could not be more wrong; surprise is the first step of combat. You do not roll initiative until after the enemy are either surprised or not. Once the first turn begins it no longer matters if anybody is hidden; enemies that were surprised are still surprised. Some of your party being visible doesn't stop the enemies being surprised, nor does it affect the assassin's sneak attack, that's up to them alone. That's how the rules work.
I'm sorry, but I'm done trying to explain this rule to either of you; I'm un-subbing from this thread because I'm sick to death of trying to argue the merits of the Assassin sub-class with people who do not know the rules upon which it is based, and don't seem to want to learn.
The sub-class is fine, and good at what it's for, and reasonably balanced. I'm sorry for filling this thread with posts with no benefit to anyone.
With Optimus on this. EVERYONE has to roll a stealth roll if they are reasonably in combat or there is no surprise round. It is clearly laid out in the rules of determining surprise. Moreover if one character rolls terribly low then no one is surprised. Its two sentences and not that hard to understand. And yes this makes it hard for the assassin to get its surprise autocrit in a mixed party that doesn't commit to stealth. That is why they get advantage on people they beat in initiative, because the autocrit is supposed to be hard to get. Its a 3rd level ability not a cheat code.
"The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter."
Unless I am mistaken the clanky paladin removes surprise for the entire team. Fundamentally this is where party composition ruins the surprise seeker. In my last game we did great being sneaky and then two stealthy characters died and were replaced by two guys in plate. No more surprise. It wasn't even worth trying.
Yep. Just looked it up. Its all or nothing. EVERYONE in the party needs to try to be stealthy. If one person doesn't try then there is no surprise. Second, then its stealth vs. passive perception. If you don't do group stealth then all it takes is one full plate guy with disadvantage not clearing a 10 and it blows surprise for everyone. If you do party stealth then its a different game.
And there in lies the problem. The situations where the entire team can be stealthy to that point are insanely rare. That might be how surprise works but I really think surprise needs to work reliably for a class that revolves around it. Whether that means that still getting surprise provided they are hidden at the start of combat
Yup hence why the white room math is pointless...
You roll a group check for stealth you are bound to fail pretty often unless you have a group kitted for it.
Or you have the rogue approaching every encounter by themselves and getting dunked on if they roll low on stealth or initiative.
One of the best times for a Ranger and Pass without Trace
Yeah if you got the right group and a stealth focus then it's a good choice I would agree.
An enemy is only surprised if they do not spot any threat, so if the paladin with stealth disadvantage rolls poorly the chances are good that some or all of the enemies will spot them. It depends how your DM wants to run it though as it's a prime candidate for turning into some form of group check depending upon numbers.
But this is why you don't want heavily armoured fighters as part of your ambushers unless you can offset them somehow (e.g- Enhance Ability, Pass Without Trace etc.), otherwise you want them to hang back so they're not part of the surprise check. Again this should be part of normal play for any Rogue, Ranger etc.; you send your stealthiest characters first to spot enemies, find traps etc.
This is why the issue is more DM/group dependent because if either your party doesn't want to play smart, or your DM doesn't want to let you, then you've got bigger problems, as you're also arguably not playing 5e as intended.
I fail to see how it's a problem with the Assassin sub-class that some people don't realise what the first step of every combat is supposed to be. All I see are people who really need to brush up on how combat works. 😝
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I hate the "you just don't understand it and that's why it doesn't work for you" mentally to people's experiences.
We fully understand what the text says but feel it's not descriptive enough to consistently work the way a subclass should.
It's fair to ask for an ability that works consistently and with a variety of parties.... Not just ones that are required to cast enhance ability and pass without trace for you to use your subclass.
Except that it's fully applicable; the combat section's first step is literally to determine surprise. If you have a DM/group that do not do this, then you're not playing D&D combat as intended; you're playing it with an entire step missing.
This might be fine in any group without characters that can take advantage of an ambush, but in any group that can you should be playing this properly; and for the hundredth time now, this is not just groups with an assassin. Any group with a Rogue or Ranger should be aiming to get surprise whenever possible, unless for some reason you specifically want to play a loud and brash version of one of these who never enter an area cautiously or try to take an enemy by surprise.
Enhance Ability/Pass Without Trace are not required they are options. Every party also has the option of letting its less stealthy characters hang back so you can still surprise enemies, please don't pretend that this is complicated, it really isn't.
Now obviously if your group or DM refuse to ever do combat properly then you're going to have a hard time getting a surprise round as an assassin, but that's not a fault of the subclass, that's a fault of your group/DM. Played properly, such a group should be getting surprised by the enemies instead, but no doubt they won't do that either, so they never have any consequences for ignoring the rules.
But this is no different to vanilla Rangers being hampered if your DM/group refuse to ever explore or do survival; these are legitimate parts of the game that are intended to be a part of it. Groups/DMs not bothering is nothing new, but pretending that that's the fault of the Ranger class for not pandering to their laziness is victim blaming. You can absolutely drop exploration/survival/surprise if your group has no characters that thrive upon it, but if you're dropping them when you do then you are choosing to cripple that character on purpose; that makes it your/your DM's/your group's fault.
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Agree to disagree then
Your whole thing is based on stuff the dm has to decide on. How far back is far enough? Is it far enough that they wouldn’t know if combat had started? Is it far enough that they have to give up their first round just getting in range? Because one person spotted means no surprise. And I don’t see any rules that dictate how far away someone has to be to not roll stealth checks? Because I’d bet it would be around 60-100ft based on sound alone. If people are trying to sneak cover to cover and line of sight is a factor… man how do you even quantify that.
the dm then gets carte Blanche to just make surprise for the assassin just not worth it. People just end up being too far away to Make the turns they spend catching up worth the hit. sure the ideal situation is you fish for surprise every round but what does that entail? Is that realistic? Is it consistent between dms? Can it be consistent? Can a subclass be significantly weakened if your party has anyone with heavy armour?
now if assassins got the chance to get surprise provided they were unseen at the start of combat… now we are talking. Now it’s something they can rely on that isn’t ruined by other characters. Because I do not believe an assassin couldn’t take advantage of people being distracted by a group of people, especially if they consider them a threat. Sounds a perfect time to strike
hell I would even say assassins should get an increased critical hit threshold if they are hidden and make an attack. Guarantee a crit on the first round if hidden. Increased crit chance when hidden subsequently.
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This is factually not how this works. Surprise is if they are aware of “A” threat. Not the rogue. ANY threat. If it worked that they could be surprised by the assassin alone even if they were aware of the party. Different story. But RAW that’s not how it works.
you also haven’t answered how that is worth it either. So 2-4 members of the party spend a turn dashing. So one character gets a crit? And maybe a ranger if it exists gets a few shots? This is a problem. This is why the assassin needs to be able to set themselves up independent of the party. because again, there are NO rules covering how far away a party must be so the rogue gets this shot. It might even be more than one round to close the gap. It forces your team to play around you. It slows down the game. It makes others feel bad for ruining group stealth’s for you. And this could all be avoided by making the assassin able to surprise independently Of the party. Or remove the surprise requirement and just make it if they are hidden at the start of the combat
and the assassin cannot just pick people off unseen. If you make an attack, people become aware of your presence. Sure you can re-hide but people are going to know you are in the area. And if they go on ahead that’s fine. Scouting is one thing. But I really struggle to see the situation where a single crit from the rogue (outside of extremely min max builds) outdoes just the party getting a turn.
your whole anti magic field/wizard comparison don’t work either. Anti magic fields are costly and rare. They also affect multiple classes and people equally. The surprise round is crucial to the entire lot of the assassin. And just having specific teammates dramatically changes that. It’s not an environmental thing. It’s just a “you joined the wrong party” thing.
i have got to ask what is the problem with the assassin getting a quality of life buff? Something that makes their main feature more usable. Why are you against them having the ability to surprise independently or to make them get that first crit more consistently in some way? It’s their only combat ability until super late and the other two abilities are only useful in very very specific cases that may NEVER apply. Why not let them have their moment more consistently?
The last part is the part I never get....its obvious that a fair amount of people would like to see an alternative option for the assassin at this point...why not give it a shot with a different ability? We have made changes to other published subclasses at this point....why not this one?
I mean make it the same ability but more reliable. Lean into WHY people play assassin. Hell I would go further and straight up get them to keep the abilities we have and add to the ones it already has. Make it work better with poisons. Let them make unique poisons. Let them remain hidden if they kill a target whilst hidden.
the assassin is such a fun class idea that is SO fiddly to really work. I have played one so many times and it’s just…. Cumbersome and unreliable unless a DM bends over backwards. Half it’s abilities only work in specific campaigns full stop.
so make what it has reliable. And add new abilities to the older ones. Ones that support the playstyle.
I feel like at one point they were going that way (Hence the prof. in poison kit) but decided it would be too complicated or something and backed out.
I think the subclass's biggest sin is....its just boring.
You can potentially do some good damage on the first turn....great so can the fighter with action surge or the gloomstalker ranger.
But thats pretty much all you get from the subclass until level 17.
The 9th and 14th level abilities are at best fluff.
9th level feature requires a full week of downtime....I have rarely if ever gotten that in game...especially one where we couldn't just use magic or some other in to make it work by 9th level.
The Actor feat is just better than the 14th level feature if you want to mimic things. (1 minute for Actor vs 3 hours for Assassin) to a creature for ADV on the deception check either way.
17th level is really the only feature that adds more value to the subclass that isnt just better handled by dipping into another class or simply picking up a better subclass.
I will absolutely agree with you there. Which is why I really think a touch up isn’t too much to ask. Make the assassinate work reliably and consistently. Give them more ways to get it. give them additional means to do damage (poisons, increased critical strike chance, anything that leans itself to assassination style damage) whilst keeping the infiltration skills.
this could be such a fun class if they just weren’t so scared to lean into it and let it be powerful.
You don't need to roll for anyone that an enemy cannot reasonably perceive; if an ally is standing still (cannot be heard) out of direct line of sight (cannot be seen) then there is no reason for your DM to ask them to roll a stealth check. Your primary criticism of surprise was that the DM decides, but this is precisely why they decide, because they choose who rolls and who doesn't. You'll notice that the rule does not state "roll stealth checks for literally every creature in all of the multiverse, just in case an enemy somehow notices them".
This is the basic back and forth of how the vast majority of D&D works, so I'm not sure why I should have to explain this? It's no different from trying to persuade an NPC; if you can come up with a reasonable argument, your DM can decide who needs to roll what to deceive or convince them. Surely you're not going to argue that social checks in D&D are too vague because Wizards of the Coast didn't limit you to a specific list of lines your characters are allowed to say?
D&D is fundamentally a freeform RPG yet you're insisting that one feature must have concrete immutable rules that render it only usable in specific circumstances because… why? Because your DM hates you and wants you to fail? Why are you even arguing this? The DM may control your enemies, but their role in the game is not to be your enemy, it is to run the game; if your DM wants to deny a specific character the ability to use one of their sub-class features then your problem is not with the sub-class, but your terrible, terrible DM.
The only reasonable argument around surprise is that the player's handbook, or the dungeon master's guide could do with including a few specific examples for some common types of surprise (hiding in bushes, social ambush etc.); if that was the argument you were making I'd agree with you, but the rule is freeform for a reason, because it's simply not possible to account for every possible idea a party may have for an ambush.
Just take a look at some of the other suggestions; the assassin should get auto-crit if they're hidden in the first round? That's actually worse because it eliminates entire categories of surprise completely; in fact if you look at the assassin's other features you'll see that one of the types of surprise they're intended to excel at is deceiving their way into proximity to a target through social stealth so they can launch an attack having bypassed guards etc. entirely. Such a proposed change would actually make them worse at doing this, rather than being the potentially one hit killer assassins that they're designed to be.
Why are you so determined to look at this backwards? One character (or several, in a decently mixed partly) get essentially a free turn; this is the whole point of surprise. With some additional work you can give this to the entire party, either by helping the less stealthy characters to hide as well (with Enhance Ability, Pass Without Trace etc.) or a better plan for how they can be concealed without being too far away. And if they have to run in on their first turn; so what? This is a turn that the combat wouldn't have otherwise had, because you've launched an ambush to trigger surprise, rather than just blundered loudly into range to fight an enemy that already knows you are there.
And ultimately all I'm doing is proposing that your groups actually play using the actual combat rules of D&D; I don't know why you're so determined that D&D be dumbed down by eliminating the entire first step of the combat rules? It's there for a reason. And if you're determined to not play using the rules that the sub-class was specifically designed to capitalise upon then that's your own fault, not the sub-class'.
The party still gets a turn, the ambushers get an extra one, and in the case of the assassin it can be one hell of a turn. The damage they can put out from a guaranteed auto-crit is huge, it can make the difference between facing an enemy group with spellcasting and facing one without, it can mean picking off individual guards without raising a general alarm.
And they absolutely can pick enemies off unseen; if the assassin is hidden when they auto-crit, then hidden again afterwards, then what exactly do you imagine the enemies saw? If they fail their perception checks to see the assassin then the assassin is unseen. The enemies may know that they are being picked off, they might even know there is an enemy nearby, but they don't know who, and they don't know where or how to find them. They can either waste their turns on making additional perception checks to find the assassin, or they can find any other enemies that they can see.
D&D is a game of imagination; why are you determined to invent obstacles but not to consider the advantages of properly employing what is once again literally the first rule of combat in D&D? The assassin sub-class is for playing a damned assassin, so play one.
But I'm getting sick of this; a sub-class is not at fault because you don't play using the rules it was designed for as they're supposed to be used. Once again that's like saying Wizards are bad in a campaign that doesn't allow magic; while it's technically true, it has nothing to do with the (sub-)class.
The assassin sub-class is for playing as an assassin; they are one of, if not the, best alpha strikers in the game; if you actually play the game using the rules you're supposed to. And this is true whether they strike through cunning in combat, or subterfuge out of combat. While they don't have any new combat features between 3rd and 17th, sneak attack progression is still combat progression for the assassin, as it's sneak attack that they have a much higher chance of getting (or doubling) in the first round. While again, I'd like a built in initiative boost (so there would be less need to take Alert using the Rogue's bonus ability score increase) it's not critical, and it's a perfectly well balanced sub-class when using the 5th edition ruleset as presented (not as bastardised by lazy DM's and players).
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One could argue that if the other PC is not trying to be sneaky then they should be insta-spotted when initative is rolled....its even addressed in that section:
"If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other."
So I would interpret that (as has every DM I have played with) that if you are in combat range (DM dependent but roughly 30-60 ft) in order for ANYONE to get surprise you have to try to be sneaky and roll the stealth roll.
If not then you are automatically detected once initiative is rolled and thus no surprise.
We're not talking about two sides where neither is trying to be sneaky; we're talking about one side with ambushers sneaking into range while the rest hang back or are otherwise concealed ready for the ambush to occur.
This literally could not be more wrong; surprise is the first step of combat. You do not roll initiative until after the enemy are either surprised or not. Once the first turn begins it no longer matters if anybody is hidden; enemies that were surprised are still surprised. Some of your party being visible doesn't stop the enemies being surprised, nor does it affect the assassin's sneak attack, that's up to them alone. That's how the rules work.
I'm sorry, but I'm done trying to explain this rule to either of you; I'm un-subbing from this thread because I'm sick to death of trying to argue the merits of the Assassin sub-class with people who do not know the rules upon which it is based, and don't seem to want to learn.
The sub-class is fine, and good at what it's for, and reasonably balanced. I'm sorry for filling this thread with posts with no benefit to anyone.
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With Optimus on this. EVERYONE has to roll a stealth roll if they are reasonably in combat or there is no surprise round. It is clearly laid out in the rules of determining surprise. Moreover if one character rolls terribly low then no one is surprised. Its two sentences and not that hard to understand. And yes this makes it hard for the assassin to get its surprise autocrit in a mixed party that doesn't commit to stealth. That is why they get advantage on people they beat in initiative, because the autocrit is supposed to be hard to get. Its a 3rd level ability not a cheat code.
"The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter."