“Yes your math is bad for the same reason I said it was on the previous thread....
It assumes white room scenarios thanks to magic items, and low perception enemies which is not very real-world fitting. “
Shows math using absolutely worst-case scenarios for Perception checks
“You assume its as easy as Stealth vs. Perception which is not the only factor with Surprise unforunately...thats half the issue.”
I can’t argue if you’re constantly moving the goal posts.
”It also takes 0 account for your party mates which is also extremely unrealistic.”
“If your party fails on the checks they may notice all of you or at least be aware enough to forgo the surprise....something you didn't account for at all. ”
Since when does an Assassin approach a target with his Plate Mail-wearing Cleric standing beside him? If your DM is so unrealistic that an entire party of adventurers has to roll for Stealth to get the drop on a bad guy, that’s not a problem of the class, that’s a problem of your DM or your player’s imaginations.
You can’t argue my math is bad (quoting wonky Perception) then immediately backtrack in your next post. I already addressed that you should chat with your DM to make sure they’re open to the idea of Stealth and Surprise at *least* how they’re written in the book. If your DM doesn’t like Stealth, then better not play any Rogues at all.
There’s even an Audible Sound Distance Table for people trying to be quiet on the DM Screen for 2d6*5 ft, so I would hope they would at least allow your Assassin to scout 60ft ahead and not require the party to roll Stealth checks.
But I’m done arguing - you can call it a white room calculation (it is), but spouting out random numbers (like 10%) without even qualifying it is just being hyperbolic for no reason.
It is though.... You assume everyone will have low perception even though it's one of the most common Prof for creatures to have and Keen Sense gives creatures +5 to passive perception scores.
Audible sound table? Is that some random DM screen information?
Also every encounter (or at least 1 per session) has to be able to be scout able in this manner and the DM has to consistently do this little song and dance for one player to do so?
IMO it's bad design and should not rely on wonky mechanics.
If you need to rely on a feat to get a base class ability to function properly then its not super well designed IMO.
You don't need to rely on the feat, a decent DEX score will get you your first round advantage nearly all of the time; you only need to go ahead of one enemy to have advantage against that one. Alert just makes the chance much better, and is a must for any alpha striker, not uniquely the assassin.
I'd happily trade one of the later features for a built in initiative boost for the scaling, but Rogues get a bonus ability score increase so it's not unreasonable to assume you'll take at least one feat to further optimise one of your core features. The feature I'd probably trade would be the 9th level Infiltration Expert, or just add the initiative boost on top of it (since Infiltration Expert is a pretty much purely out of combat feature). But like I say we get the extra ability score increase at 10th level anyway so you can just take Alert.
If you need alert to make Assassin viable then its not really a good deal....not when Aim exists now to give you ADV on your first shot in a fight anyway.
Aim only works with ranged attacks and requires your bonus action; with first round advantage you can use your bonus action for a second melee attack, as even with advantage you can still miss, but two attacks with advantage are incredibly unlikely to, or you can use it to hide to maintain advantage for later while also protecting yourself (which aim doesn't do).
It depends a lot on whether you want to be a melee or ranged assassin, as you might not need Alert if you surprise enemies from a distance for the auto-crit, as you could take Sharpshooter for the extra damage instead (-5 to hit is no burden if you're going to be auto-crit after all).
The auto crit relies on the surprise mechanism which is wonky at best and pretty bad at worst. If that were more clearly defined then I would have confidence in the subclass.
The surprise mechanism is dead simple; you roll stealth checks for "anyone hiding", i.e- the advance group of rogues, rangers and other stealthy characters, and compare against enemy perception rolls. Everyone else hangs back until the fighting starts, because they can use the surprise round to dash into range. Depending on your group it might mean that some players get an extra turn and others don't, but that's what surprise is all about.
Ultimately all the assassin needs is for one enemy to roll only moderately well and they can auto-crit against them. It's also worth keeping in mind that the auto-crit isn't a one-off, if you have two light weapons you can auto-crit twice for the extra damage, or use your bonus action to hide to protect yourself. Basic assassin stuff really.
The main problem with the assassin is if you have a group or DM who never lets you check for surprise in the first place; you're probably not going to have a good time if you've got that one friend who always plays a barbarian who rushes into every fight screaming "Hey enemies! I'm right here, and my allies are here, here and here" then complains about how badly combat goes like it's somehow everybody else's fault.
It's what I'd call a session zero sub-class, like Ranger can be a session zero class, where it pays to discuss the group and campaign in advance rather than everybody picking a character in isolation then being unhappy at the group being poorly balanced. It's a perfectly good sub-class for what it's for; being an assassin, and when you're allowed to be an assassin it's very, very good, even in spite of its somewhat "meh" later level features.
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As a bonus action, you give yourself advantage on your next attack roll on the current turn. You can use this bonus action only if you haven’t moved during this turn, and after you use the bonus action, your speed is 0 until the end of the current turn.
Note it does not say ranged....
Also yeah you just use a ranged weapon for the first attack and get ADV. and an opening sneak attack.
It's pretty hard to get surprise on a melee attack Imo as if you break cover to run in and attack I generally feel that doesn't warrant surprise.
I think that's as intended too as the rest of the features boost your ability to be pretend to be someone else so you can get in close before attacking which AIM would be perfect for then.
Overall it's a ok ability but the fact you only ever get a +5 to initiative unless you pick a certain feat or a specific race feels like bad design to me.
Sorry, what I should have said is that it's less useful for melee; as not being able to move kind of makes it hard to hit unless you're already right at the enemy. Most of the time you're better off hiding for the defensive benefits, and then trying to strike something in the side or from behind.
Also yeah you just use a ranged weapon for the first attack and get ADV. and an opening sneak attack.
Which works just fine for a ranged Assassin as well, except that they should be aiming for the auto-crit instead wherever possible. It doesn't matter if other Rogues can get advantage now because the Assassin can still auto-crit instead (double damage is huge with sneak attack), meanwhile when other Rogues won't have advantage in the first round, the Assassin still can.
It's enhancing a Rogue's natural ability to do brutal opening attacks. I'm not personally happy about the inclusion of Aimed Shot for Rogues in Tasha's, as the class didn't need the boost and it makes ranged Rogues into a real zero-effort build IMO, but even so, it doesn't make the Assassin worse because they can get advantage when others don't, and can auto-crit even when they do.
It's pretty hard to get surprise on a melee attack Imo as if you break cover to run in and attack I generally feel that doesn't warrant surprise.
If you melee attack them from the front then sure, you're no longer hidden, but that doesn't matter for surprise, as you only needed to remain hidden until the trap was sprung; enemies don't lose their turn because they can't see you, they lose their turn because they didn't see you in time. They're stuck readying weapons, rolling out of bed etc., basically giving you a free turn because you're on them before they can react.
It's the difference between seeing someone down a corridor and knowing they're going to rush you, and them waiting till you get closer before jumping out and getting to you before you can react properly.
Overall it's a ok ability but the fact you only ever get a +5 to initiative unless you pick a certain feat or a specific race feels like bad design to me.
You don't need the race; surprise is largely up to you, you just have to be able to work with your group to set it up, so the auto-crit is fairly easy to get when you know there are enemies ahead. First round advantage you'll get most of the time otherwise, unless for some reason you go low DEX.
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It's pretty hard to get surprise on a melee attack Imo as if you break cover to run in and attack I generally feel that doesn't warrant surprise.
If you melee attack them from the front then sure, you're no longer hidden, but that doesn't matter for surprise, as you only needed to remain hidden until the trap was sprung; enemies don't lose their turn because they can't see you, they lose their turn because they didn't see you in time. They're stuck readying weapons, rolling out of bed etc., basically giving you a free turn because you're on them before they can react.
It's the difference between seeing someone down a corridor and knowing they're going to rush you, and them waiting till you get closer before jumping out and getting to you before you can react properly.
See the difference is that either interpretation is fair as the DM gets to decide who is surprised at the start of the fight
I would disagree that you surprise a guy running at him from cover but to each their own.
It's pretty hard to get surprise on a melee attack Imo as if you break cover to run in and attack I generally feel that doesn't warrant surprise.
If you melee attack them from the front then sure, you're no longer hidden, but that doesn't matter for surprise, as you only needed to remain hidden until the trap was sprung; enemies don't lose their turn because they can't see you, they lose their turn because they didn't see you in time. They're stuck readying weapons, rolling out of bed etc., basically giving you a free turn because you're on them before they can react.
It's the difference between seeing someone down a corridor and knowing they're going to rush you, and them waiting till you get closer before jumping out and getting to you before you can react properly.
See the difference is that either interpretation is fair as the DM gets to decide who is surprised at the start of the fight
That has nothing to do with it, the DM decides who to roll for. Once the rolls are made, the enemies are either surprised or not; you can do whatever you want with your opening turn, it doesn't matter if they can see you at that point, as they're already surprised.
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The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.
I interpret that as the DM decides if stealth even applies to the situation. In the case of the guy sprinting out to attack someone from 30 ft away I would say surprise is not a factor.
If you can get within like 10ft a lot more likely. But it is up to the DM.
We have all played at different tables and the assassin is heavily a table to table subclass. You need a DM AND a party to cooperate to make you successful. From the DM you need him to play with reasonable surprise rules and not just coax you into a 1 player ambush. Although lets be real here if you are trying to surprise every round it is reasonable for the DM to design an ambush for you. You are going to be seeking out surprise rounds on the regular. DM cooperation from encounter design to just leeway in what you are doing to be stealthy is critical.
From the other players you need help not charging in, maybe some armor help so you don't have heavy armor clanking around the front line. You need the party comfortable with you going ahead on your own. Personally I play in a campaign with too many players to not have at least 2 players clanking around in heavy armor. I think in the last 2 years we have probably surprised the enemy 2 or 3 times. Our heavy armor people like being at the front, hence why they view themselves as front liners. My group would be a poor choice to try and run an assassin with.
Personally as a DM I also wouldn't let someone get surprise if they ran out of cover to attack. You just started combat everyone roll initiative. You tell me you sneak. Lets see a roll and see who you surprised.
We have all played at different tables and the assassin is heavily a table to table subclass. You need a DM AND a party to cooperate to make you successful. From the DM you need him to play with reasonable surprise rules and not just coax you into a 1 player ambush. Although lets be real here if you are trying to surprise every round it is reasonable for the DM to design an ambush for you. You are going to be seeking out surprise rounds on the regular. DM cooperation from encounter design to just leeway in what you are doing to be stealthy is critical.
From the other players you need help not charging in, maybe some armor help so you don't have heavy armor clanking around the front line. You need the party comfortable with you going ahead on your own. Personally I play in a campaign with too many players to not have at least 2 players clanking around in heavy armor. I think in the last 2 years we have probably surprised the enemy 2 or 3 times. Our heavy armor people like being at the front, hence why they view themselves as front liners. My group would be a poor choice to try and run an assassin with.
Personally as a DM I also wouldn't let someone get surprise if they ran out of cover to attack. You just started combat everyone roll initiative. You tell me you sneak. Lets see a roll and see who you surprised.
Yeah that's just my point... It's still an ok subclass mostly because I think rogue has a really good base kit and you can't go to wrong with any subclass
I interpret that as the DM decides if stealth even applies to the situation. In the case of the guy sprinting out to attack someone from 30 ft away I would say surprise is not a factor.
I'm not sure where this idea is coming from; I never argued anything like this? The point of surprise is that you sneak up on the enemy, or hide somewhere they're going to pass by, and then you ambush them; hence the surprise.
You roll to see if the enemy is surprised, and every enemy that is surprised effectively loses their first turn of combat; if you're successful enough your ambushers basically get a round to do as they please, which includes moving up to the enemy and stabbing them literally in their faces if you want to.
If you can get within like 10ft a lot more likely. But it is up to the DM.
It's not up to the DM at this point; around the 60 foot or so mark you've already declared "we sneak up to ambush the enemy" or "we lie in wait in their path" and the DM has decided whether to roll for surprise. The results of the rolls aren't up to them, the die have literally been cast by that point; each enemy that fails to beat your stealth roll(s) is surprised.
Thanks to Cunning Action a Rogue can move 50-60 feet (more with Mobile, certain races etc.) to rush up and stab their target during the "free" turn this gives them, and for the assassin thanks to auto-crit this will be double the damage die and hitting automatically regardless of any and all obstacles.
Now whether you get sneak attack as part of that is more complex, but as long as you're going ahead of them in initiative order you'll get advantage no matter what, so it doesn't matter if you remain hidden. If you don't want to rely on getting that (and don't have Alert, an ally who can use Enhance Ability (Dexterity) on you etc.) then you can instead set up your ambush to try and attack from the side or behind (or maybe above?), so you'll still be hidden right up until the moment when your target explodes into a shower of gore with you bursting through them like an R-rated Kool-Aid Man. 😈
While yes, you require some DM cooperation, any DM who allows an assassin in their campaign and then actively works to prevent them from ever being able to use their core features is not a DM I'd ever want to play D&D with. Same goes for the hypothetical DMs on here who let someone create a Berserker and then regularly inflict exhaustion on their party, or allow casters then constantly employ antimagic fields. That's just bad DMing, and you've got bigger problems at such a table.
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I interpret that as the DM decides if stealth even applies to the situation. In the case of the guy sprinting out to attack someone from 30 ft away I would say surprise is not a factor.
I'm not sure where this idea is coming from; I never argued anything like this? The point of surprise is that you sneak up on the enemy, or hide somewhere they're going to pass by, and then you ambush them; hence the surprise.
You roll to see if the enemy is surprised, and every enemy that is surprised effectively loses their first turn of combat; if you're successful enough your ambushers basically get a round to do as they please, which includes moving up to the enemy and stabbing them literally in their faces if you want to.
If you can get within like 10ft a lot more likely. But it is up to the DM.
It's not up to the DM at this point; around the 60 foot or so mark you've already declared "we sneak up to ambush the enemy" or "we lie in wait in their path" and the DM has decided whether to roll for surprise. The results of the rolls aren't up to them, the die have literally been cast by that point; each enemy that fails to beat your stealth roll(s) is surprised.
Thanks to Cunning Action a Rogue can move 50-60 feet (more with Mobile, certain races etc.) to rush up and stab their target during the "free" turn this gives them, and for the assassin thanks to auto-crit this will be double the damage die and hitting automatically regardless of any and all obstacles.
Now whether you get sneak attack as part of that is more complex, but as long as you're going ahead of them in initiative order you'll get advantage no matter what, so it doesn't matter if you remain hidden. If you don't want to rely on getting that (and don't have Alert, an ally who can use Enhance Ability (Dexterity) on you etc.) then you can instead set up your ambush to try and attack from the side or behind (or maybe above?), so you'll still be hidden right up until the moment when your target explodes into a shower of gore with you bursting through them like an R-rated Kool-Aid Man. 😈
While yes, you require some DM cooperation, any DM who allows an assassin in their campaign and then actively works to prevent them from ever being able to use their core features is not a DM I'd ever want to play D&D with. Same goes for the hypothetical DMs on here who let someone create a Berserker and then regularly inflict exhaustion on their party, or allow casters then constantly employ antimagic fields. That's just bad DMing, and you've got bigger problems at such a table.
Well to each their own then...I interpret it a different way and it appears I am not the only one.
Overall the major point is that there is definitely subclasses with more versatility and less single target damage if that is the ideal for "balance" otherwise its up to the individual.
While yes, you require some DM cooperation, any DM who allows an assassin in their campaign and then actively works to prevent them from ever being able to use their core features is not a DM I'd ever want to play D&D with. Same goes for the hypothetical DMs on here who let someone create a Berserker and then regularly inflict exhaustion on their party, or allow casters then constantly employ antimagic fields. That's just bad DMing, and you've got bigger problems at such a table.
Earlier you had a great point that an assassin requires a solid session zero before playing with the DM. Some other classes benefit as well, but a clear understanding of party make up and how the DM plans on running stealth/surprise/etc. is critical for everyone at the table to have fun. We haven't gotten into poisons yet, but that is an important discussion as well for the DM and player to have. Its always good to know the house rules going in and how things will be interpreted. Rules lawyering mid game is not fun for the table.
While yes, you require some DM cooperation, any DM who allows an assassin in their campaign and then actively works to prevent them from ever being able to use their core features is not a DM I'd ever want to play D&D with. Same goes for the hypothetical DMs on here who let someone create a Berserker and then regularly inflict exhaustion on their party, or allow casters then constantly employ antimagic fields. That's just bad DMing, and you've got bigger problems at such a table.
Earlier you had a great point that an assassin requires a solid session zero before playing with the DM. Some other classes benefit as well, but a clear understanding of party make up and how the DM plans on running stealth/surprise/etc. is critical for everyone at the table to have fun. We haven't gotten into poisons yet, but that is an important discussion as well for the DM and player to have. Its always good to know the house rules going in and how things will be interpreted. Rules lawyering mid game is not fun for the table.
Well to each their own then...I interpret it a different way and it appears I am not the only one.
There isn't any other way to interpret it, the rules are clear; while the check involved just happens to be the same as for the hide action, you are not required to be hidden, these two things are not linked. Your DM can choose to make being well hidden an additional requirement, but it should depend on how exactly your player(s) are trying to surprise the enemy. For example you could launch an ambush while standing right out in the open by being in disguise; stealth/perception is still relevant for that as you're trying to hide your weapons/armour to appear non-threatening until you suddenly draw and attack.
Even if your DM makes being hidden a requirement to initiate surprise, once the enemy is surprised it does not matter if you remain hidden or not. Literally nothing in the rule tells you to do this, so if you make that an additional requirement you are actively choosing to use a houserule to discourage ambushing enemies. That's not a fault of the Assassin sub-class, that's you or your DM choosing to do something that isn't in the rules; you can't blame a sub-class for coping poorly with a houserule that seems designed specifically to disadvantage it.
Overall the major point is that there is definitely subclasses with more versatility and less single target damage if that is the ideal for "balance" otherwise its up to the individual.
The assassin is plenty versatile if your DM actually uses the rules properly rather than actively trying to stop you from using your character abilities; even when you can't setup an ambush you should get first round advantage most of the time, which means an easy zero-cost sneak attack in the first round, while leaving your bonus action free to do as you please (so you can actually sneak attack andhide to make yourself nearly impossible to hit back), rather than having to sacrifice your bonus action just to get what the assassin got for free.
They are also plenty versatile; because their 3rd level feature makes opening sneak attacks easier/deadlier their combat abilities scale with sneak attack; while I would like a little something more (an Initiative boost at 9th as I said) it's not a major problem, and they get two decent social stealth abilities.
A sub-class does not need to be bland "works even if your DM doesn't know the rules" to be balanced, it just needs to work within the actual rules of the game. Assassin is reasonably balanced on that basis; it's an alpha-striker that requires a little setup to get the most out of it (setting up surprise), and does well with optimisation (taking Alert with your bonus ASI).
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Well to each their own then...I interpret it a different way and it appears I am not the only one.
There isn't any other way to interpret it, the rules are clear; while the check involved just happens to be the same as for the hide action, you are not required to be hidden, these two things are not linked. Your DM can choose to make being well hidden an additional requirement, but it should depend on how exactly your player(s) are trying to surprise the enemy. For example you could launch an ambush while standing right out in the open by being in disguise; stealth/perception is still relevant for that as you're trying to hide your weapons/armour to appear non-threatening until you suddenly draw and attack.
Even if your DM makes being hidden a requirement to initiate surprise, once the enemy is surprised it does not matter if you remain hidden or not. Literally nothing in the rule tells you to do this, so if you make that an additional requirement you are actively choosing to use a houserule to discourage ambushing enemies. That's not a fault of the Assassin sub-class, that's you or your DM choosing to do something that isn't in the rules; you can't blame a sub-class for coping poorly with a houserule that seems designed specifically to disadvantage it.
Overall the major point is that there is definitely subclasses with more versatility and less single target damage if that is the ideal for "balance" otherwise its up to the individual.
The assassin is plenty versatile if your DM actually uses the rules properly rather than actively trying to stop you from using your character abilities; even when you can't setup an ambush you should get first round advantage most of the time, which means an easy zero-cost sneak attack in the first round, while leaving your bonus action free to do as you please (so you can actually sneak attack andhide to make yourself nearly impossible to hit back), rather than having to sacrifice your bonus action just to get what the assassin got for free.
They are also plenty versatile; because their 3rd level feature makes opening sneak attacks easier/deadlier their combat abilities scale with sneak attack; while I would like a little something more (an Initiative boost at 9th as I said) it's not a major problem, and they get two decent social stealth abilities.
A sub-class does not need to be bland "works even if your DM is being a prick" to be balanced, it just needs to work within the actual rules of the game.
Honestly I feel assassin needs a feature along with the assassinate at level 3 which gives them a chance to gain surprise on the first round of combat. Because some dms ignore it entirely. And the rules aren’t even clear. What is surprise? If they are aware of a threat and combat ready, are they surprised if they aren’t aware of the rogue? Because it doesn't read that way. I feel like it needs to be baked into the kit so dms can’t ignore it.
having played one, the game devolved into me asking “can I get surprise” every combat. Having hard and fast ways to get suprise would be amazing. Give me a way to skip a turn for assassinate next turn. Make it so it’s not surprise, it’s being unaware of the assassins location. Make positioning important. Or make poisons better on them. Or just anything that makes it simple to use the thing people take it for.
A band of adventurers sneaks up on a bandit camp, springing from the trees to attack them. A gelatinous cube glides down a dungeon passage, unnoticed by the adventurers until the cube engulfs one of them. In these situations, one side of the battle gains surprise over the other.
It's any situation in which enemies are unaware they're in danger until it's too late, so they're slow to react.
The problem really seems to be that most people's experience of combat is that your adventuring party gets close to a group of enemies, then you're all just rolling for initiative and that's that, but unless those enemies are well aware that you're approaching then this shouldn't actually be normal.
If you go storming noisily into a kobold cave then sure, they'll probably be readying weapons and traps by the time you arrive, but if more realistically you see a cave and decide to approach cautiously, then it's your stealth versus the kobold guard's perception to determine if you get the drop on them (or the DM might reverse it to see if they get the drop on you).
This is why the rules of Surprise precede the rules for Initiative; because a DM is supposed to think about who is surprising who before every single fight, you shouldn't have to tell them to, though as any stealthy character you should probably remind them of how you're approaching, to emphasise that you're not just charging in blind. Sadly it might be a poorly utilised section of the rules, but it's not an unclear section, it's right there at the start of the combat page, it's literally the first step of every combat.
And this doesn't just apply to assassins btw; all Rogues should care about surprising their enemies, so should most Rangers, probably Monks, some casters, other lightly armoured fighters and so-on, as a "free" first round can make a huge difference to combats as that's one less round of the enemy damaging you in return (if they even survive to try).
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And what happens when one person is seen and the others aren't? The rogue isn't spotted but the clanky paladin is. Are they surprised then? Because they are aware of "A" threat
A band of adventurers sneaks up on a bandit camp, springing from the trees to attack them. A gelatinous cube glides down a dungeon passage, unnoticed by the adventurers until the cube engulfs one of them. In these situations, one side of the battle gains surprise over the other.
It's any situation in which enemies are unaware they're in danger until it's too late, so they're slow to react.
The problem really seems to be that most people's experience of combat is that your adventuring party gets close to a group of enemies, then you're all just rolling for initiative and that's that, but unless those enemies are well aware that you're approaching then this shouldn't actually be normal.
If you go storming noisily into a kobold cave then sure, they'll probably be readying weapons and traps by the time you arrive, but if more realistically you see a cave and decide to approach cautiously, then it's your stealth versus the kobold guard's perception to determine if you get the drop on them (or the DM might reverse it to see if they get the drop on you).
This is why the rules of Surprise precede the rules for Initiative; because a DM is supposed to think about who is surprising who before every single fight, you shouldn't have to tell them to, though as any stealthy character you should probably remind them of how you're approaching, to emphasise that you're not just charging in blind. Sadly it might be a poorly utilised section of the rules, but it's not an unclear section, it's right there at the start of the combat page, it's literally the first step of every combat.
And this doesn't just apply to assassins btw; all Rogues should care about surprising their enemies, so should most Rangers, probably Monks, some casters, other lightly armoured fighters and so-on, as a "free" first round can make a huge difference to combats.
I feel like there has been enough people to share their experiences with the wonkiness of the surprise system to suggest that maybe it is common enough experience that perhaps clarification or errata for the subclass would be beneficial.
Personally I would love to see it be something the Assassin could activate each round of combat so that the class is a bit more active in its approach. I would like to see an option you can use in conjunction with Cunning Action maybe to help synergize with the base class more.
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It is though.... You assume everyone will have low perception even though it's one of the most common Prof for creatures to have and Keen Sense gives creatures +5 to passive perception scores.
Audible sound table? Is that some random DM screen information?
Also every encounter (or at least 1 per session) has to be able to be scout able in this manner and the DM has to consistently do this little song and dance for one player to do so?
IMO it's bad design and should not rely on wonky mechanics.
What does "balanced" mean here? All the subclasses work well for getting in sneak attack in some way, which is the biggest combat consideration.
And they all get expertise and other bonuses to social checks, so they can still be the face of the party.
You don't need to rely on the feat, a decent DEX score will get you your first round advantage nearly all of the time; you only need to go ahead of one enemy to have advantage against that one. Alert just makes the chance much better, and is a must for any alpha striker, not uniquely the assassin.
I'd happily trade one of the later features for a built in initiative boost for the scaling, but Rogues get a bonus ability score increase so it's not unreasonable to assume you'll take at least one feat to further optimise one of your core features. The feature I'd probably trade would be the 9th level Infiltration Expert, or just add the initiative boost on top of it (since Infiltration Expert is a pretty much purely out of combat feature). But like I say we get the extra ability score increase at 10th level anyway so you can just take Alert.
Aim only works with ranged attacks and requires your bonus action; with first round advantage you can use your bonus action for a second melee attack, as even with advantage you can still miss, but two attacks with advantage are incredibly unlikely to, or you can use it to hide to maintain advantage for later while also protecting yourself (which aim doesn't do).
It depends a lot on whether you want to be a melee or ranged assassin, as you might not need Alert if you surprise enemies from a distance for the auto-crit, as you could take Sharpshooter for the extra damage instead (-5 to hit is no burden if you're going to be auto-crit after all).
The surprise mechanism is dead simple; you roll stealth checks for "anyone hiding", i.e- the advance group of rogues, rangers and other stealthy characters, and compare against enemy perception rolls. Everyone else hangs back until the fighting starts, because they can use the surprise round to dash into range. Depending on your group it might mean that some players get an extra turn and others don't, but that's what surprise is all about.
Ultimately all the assassin needs is for one enemy to roll only moderately well and they can auto-crit against them. It's also worth keeping in mind that the auto-crit isn't a one-off, if you have two light weapons you can auto-crit twice for the extra damage, or use your bonus action to hide to protect yourself. Basic assassin stuff really.
The main problem with the assassin is if you have a group or DM who never lets you check for surprise in the first place; you're probably not going to have a good time if you've got that one friend who always plays a barbarian who rushes into every fight screaming "Hey enemies! I'm right here, and my allies are here, here and here" then complains about how badly combat goes like it's somehow everybody else's fault.
It's what I'd call a session zero sub-class, like Ranger can be a session zero class, where it pays to discuss the group and campaign in advance rather than everybody picking a character in isolation then being unhappy at the group being poorly balanced. It's a perfectly good sub-class for what it's for; being an assassin, and when you're allowed to be an assassin it's very, very good, even in spite of its somewhat "meh" later level features.
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Aim works with either ranged or melee:
Steady Aim
3rd-level rogue feature
As a bonus action, you give yourself advantage on your next attack roll on the current turn. You can use this bonus action only if you haven’t moved during this turn, and after you use the bonus action, your speed is 0 until the end of the current turn.
Note it does not say ranged....
Also yeah you just use a ranged weapon for the first attack and get ADV. and an opening sneak attack.
It's pretty hard to get surprise on a melee attack Imo as if you break cover to run in and attack I generally feel that doesn't warrant surprise.
I think that's as intended too as the rest of the features boost your ability to be pretend to be someone else so you can get in close before attacking which AIM would be perfect for then.
Overall it's a ok ability but the fact you only ever get a +5 to initiative unless you pick a certain feat or a specific race feels like bad design to me.
Sorry, what I should have said is that it's less useful for melee; as not being able to move kind of makes it hard to hit unless you're already right at the enemy. Most of the time you're better off hiding for the defensive benefits, and then trying to strike something in the side or from behind.
Which works just fine for a ranged Assassin as well, except that they should be aiming for the auto-crit instead wherever possible. It doesn't matter if other Rogues can get advantage now because the Assassin can still auto-crit instead (double damage is huge with sneak attack), meanwhile when other Rogues won't have advantage in the first round, the Assassin still can.
It's enhancing a Rogue's natural ability to do brutal opening attacks. I'm not personally happy about the inclusion of Aimed Shot for Rogues in Tasha's, as the class didn't need the boost and it makes ranged Rogues into a real zero-effort build IMO, but even so, it doesn't make the Assassin worse because they can get advantage when others don't, and can auto-crit even when they do.
If you melee attack them from the front then sure, you're no longer hidden, but that doesn't matter for surprise, as you only needed to remain hidden until the trap was sprung; enemies don't lose their turn because they can't see you, they lose their turn because they didn't see you in time. They're stuck readying weapons, rolling out of bed etc., basically giving you a free turn because you're on them before they can react.
It's the difference between seeing someone down a corridor and knowing they're going to rush you, and them waiting till you get closer before jumping out and getting to you before you can react properly.
You don't need the race; surprise is largely up to you, you just have to be able to work with your group to set it up, so the auto-crit is fairly easy to get when you know there are enemies ahead. First round advantage you'll get most of the time otherwise, unless for some reason you go low DEX.
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See the difference is that either interpretation is fair as the DM gets to decide who is surprised at the start of the fight
I would disagree that you surprise a guy running at him from cover but to each their own.
That has nothing to do with it, the DM decides who to roll for. Once the rolls are made, the enemies are either surprised or not; you can do whatever you want with your opening turn, it doesn't matter if they can see you at that point, as they're already surprised.
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The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.
I interpret that as the DM decides if stealth even applies to the situation. In the case of the guy sprinting out to attack someone from 30 ft away I would say surprise is not a factor.
If you can get within like 10ft a lot more likely. But it is up to the DM.
We have all played at different tables and the assassin is heavily a table to table subclass. You need a DM AND a party to cooperate to make you successful. From the DM you need him to play with reasonable surprise rules and not just coax you into a 1 player ambush. Although lets be real here if you are trying to surprise every round it is reasonable for the DM to design an ambush for you. You are going to be seeking out surprise rounds on the regular. DM cooperation from encounter design to just leeway in what you are doing to be stealthy is critical.
From the other players you need help not charging in, maybe some armor help so you don't have heavy armor clanking around the front line. You need the party comfortable with you going ahead on your own. Personally I play in a campaign with too many players to not have at least 2 players clanking around in heavy armor. I think in the last 2 years we have probably surprised the enemy 2 or 3 times. Our heavy armor people like being at the front, hence why they view themselves as front liners. My group would be a poor choice to try and run an assassin with.
Personally as a DM I also wouldn't let someone get surprise if they ran out of cover to attack. You just started combat everyone roll initiative. You tell me you sneak. Lets see a roll and see who you surprised.
Yeah that's just my point... It's still an ok subclass mostly because I think rogue has a really good base kit and you can't go to wrong with any subclass
I'm not sure where this idea is coming from; I never argued anything like this? The point of surprise is that you sneak up on the enemy, or hide somewhere they're going to pass by, and then you ambush them; hence the surprise.
You roll to see if the enemy is surprised, and every enemy that is surprised effectively loses their first turn of combat; if you're successful enough your ambushers basically get a round to do as they please, which includes moving up to the enemy and stabbing them literally in their faces if you want to.
It's not up to the DM at this point; around the 60 foot or so mark you've already declared "we sneak up to ambush the enemy" or "we lie in wait in their path" and the DM has decided whether to roll for surprise. The results of the rolls aren't up to them, the die have literally been cast by that point; each enemy that fails to beat your stealth roll(s) is surprised.
Thanks to Cunning Action a Rogue can move 50-60 feet (more with Mobile, certain races etc.) to rush up and stab their target during the "free" turn this gives them, and for the assassin thanks to auto-crit this will be double the damage die and hitting automatically regardless of any and all obstacles.
Now whether you get sneak attack as part of that is more complex, but as long as you're going ahead of them in initiative order you'll get advantage no matter what, so it doesn't matter if you remain hidden. If you don't want to rely on getting that (and don't have Alert, an ally who can use Enhance Ability (Dexterity) on you etc.) then you can instead set up your ambush to try and attack from the side or behind (or maybe above?), so you'll still be hidden right up until the moment when your target explodes into a shower of gore with you bursting through them like an R-rated Kool-Aid Man. 😈
While yes, you require some DM cooperation, any DM who allows an assassin in their campaign and then actively works to prevent them from ever being able to use their core features is not a DM I'd ever want to play D&D with. Same goes for the hypothetical DMs on here who let someone create a Berserker and then regularly inflict exhaustion on their party, or allow casters then constantly employ antimagic fields. That's just bad DMing, and you've got bigger problems at such a table.
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Well to each their own then...I interpret it a different way and it appears I am not the only one.
Overall the major point is that there is definitely subclasses with more versatility and less single target damage if that is the ideal for "balance" otherwise its up to the individual.
Earlier you had a great point that an assassin requires a solid session zero before playing with the DM. Some other classes benefit as well, but a clear understanding of party make up and how the DM plans on running stealth/surprise/etc. is critical for everyone at the table to have fun. We haven't gotten into poisons yet, but that is an important discussion as well for the DM and player to have. Its always good to know the house rules going in and how things will be interpreted. Rules lawyering mid game is not fun for the table.
Fair take
There isn't any other way to interpret it, the rules are clear; while the check involved just happens to be the same as for the hide action, you are not required to be hidden, these two things are not linked. Your DM can choose to make being well hidden an additional requirement, but it should depend on how exactly your player(s) are trying to surprise the enemy. For example you could launch an ambush while standing right out in the open by being in disguise; stealth/perception is still relevant for that as you're trying to hide your weapons/armour to appear non-threatening until you suddenly draw and attack.
Even if your DM makes being hidden a requirement to initiate surprise, once the enemy is surprised it does not matter if you remain hidden or not. Literally nothing in the rule tells you to do this, so if you make that an additional requirement you are actively choosing to use a houserule to discourage ambushing enemies. That's not a fault of the Assassin sub-class, that's you or your DM choosing to do something that isn't in the rules; you can't blame a sub-class for coping poorly with a houserule that seems designed specifically to disadvantage it.
The assassin is plenty versatile if your DM actually uses the rules properly rather than actively trying to stop you from using your character abilities; even when you can't setup an ambush you should get first round advantage most of the time, which means an easy zero-cost sneak attack in the first round, while leaving your bonus action free to do as you please (so you can actually sneak attack and hide to make yourself nearly impossible to hit back), rather than having to sacrifice your bonus action just to get what the assassin got for free.
They are also plenty versatile; because their 3rd level feature makes opening sneak attacks easier/deadlier their combat abilities scale with sneak attack; while I would like a little something more (an Initiative boost at 9th as I said) it's not a major problem, and they get two decent social stealth abilities.
A sub-class does not need to be bland "works even if your DM doesn't know the rules" to be balanced, it just needs to work within the actual rules of the game. Assassin is reasonably balanced on that basis; it's an alpha-striker that requires a little setup to get the most out of it (setting up surprise), and does well with optimisation (taking Alert with your bonus ASI).
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Agree to disagree then.
Honestly I feel assassin needs a feature along with the assassinate at level 3 which gives them a chance to gain surprise on the first round of combat. Because some dms ignore it entirely. And the rules aren’t even clear. What is surprise? If they are aware of a threat and combat ready, are they surprised if they aren’t aware of the rogue? Because it doesn't read that way. I feel like it needs to be baked into the kit so dms can’t ignore it.
having played one, the game devolved into me asking “can I get surprise” every combat. Having hard and fast ways to get suprise would be amazing. Give me a way to skip a turn for assassinate next turn. Make it so it’s not surprise, it’s being unaware of the assassins location. Make positioning important. Or make poisons better on them. Or just anything that makes it simple to use the thing people take it for.
The rules tell you:
It's any situation in which enemies are unaware they're in danger until it's too late, so they're slow to react.
The problem really seems to be that most people's experience of combat is that your adventuring party gets close to a group of enemies, then you're all just rolling for initiative and that's that, but unless those enemies are well aware that you're approaching then this shouldn't actually be normal.
If you go storming noisily into a kobold cave then sure, they'll probably be readying weapons and traps by the time you arrive, but if more realistically you see a cave and decide to approach cautiously, then it's your stealth versus the kobold guard's perception to determine if you get the drop on them (or the DM might reverse it to see if they get the drop on you).
This is why the rules of Surprise precede the rules for Initiative; because a DM is supposed to think about who is surprising who before every single fight, you shouldn't have to tell them to, though as any stealthy character you should probably remind them of how you're approaching, to emphasise that you're not just charging in blind. Sadly it might be a poorly utilised section of the rules, but it's not an unclear section, it's right there at the start of the combat page, it's literally the first step of every combat.
And this doesn't just apply to assassins btw; all Rogues should care about surprising their enemies, so should most Rangers, probably Monks, some casters, other lightly armoured fighters and so-on, as a "free" first round can make a huge difference to combats as that's one less round of the enemy damaging you in return (if they even survive to try).
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And what happens when one person is seen and the others aren't? The rogue isn't spotted but the clanky paladin is. Are they surprised then? Because they are aware of "A" threat
I feel like there has been enough people to share their experiences with the wonkiness of the surprise system to suggest that maybe it is common enough experience that perhaps clarification or errata for the subclass would be beneficial.
Personally I would love to see it be something the Assassin could activate each round of combat so that the class is a bit more active in its approach. I would like to see an option you can use in conjunction with Cunning Action maybe to help synergize with the base class more.