With Optimus on this. EVERYONE has to roll a stealth roll if they are reasonably in combat or there is no surprise round. It is clearly laid out in the rules of determining surprise. Moreover if one character rolls terribly low then no one is surprised. Its two sentences and not that hard to understand. And yes this makes it hard for the assassin to get its surprise autocrit in a mixed party that doesn't commit to stealth. That is why they get advantage on people they beat in initiative, because the autocrit is supposed to be hard to get. Its a 3rd level ability not a cheat code.
"The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter."
yeah exactly its laid out right there...if you do not attempt a stealth roll = no surprise in my book.
And even then the Auto-Crit isn't even much damage...at the levels of play that 99% of people play at its like 11.5 damage (3rd level) to 22 points (10th level) extra damage once per encounter.
Since its single target damage any overkill damage is lost....so generally I think the other rouge features are more useful on a day to day basis and versatility is definitely not one of the strong suits of the Assassin.
Its fine and whatever but honestly having a subclass that allows you to get your sneak attack off turn more often or have a bonus to Initiative is generally going to produce near the same effect but you get other bonuses that apply to other aspects of the game.
Exactly this. The crit isn’t even that much damage and it’s the ONLY combat ability the literal assassin gets until stupidly high levels. One crit a combat is hardly noteworthy these days.
honestly just make it a guaranteed crit on a surprise round, or if they are hidden at the start, or if the DM says that it should be a crit (or social situations turned less social). I would even say the assassin should also get increased crit range or a way to earn a crit at a cost. Spend a turn hidden and next hit is a crit kinda thing. Or at least get more to do with poisons.
Exactly this. The crit isn’t even that much damage and it’s the ONLY combat ability the literal assassin gets until stupidly high levels. One crit a combat is hardly noteworthy these days.
honestly just make it a guaranteed crit on a surprise round, or if they are hidden at the start, or if the DM says that it should be a crit (or social situations turned less social). I would even say the assassin should also get increased crit range or a way to earn a crit at a cost. Spend a turn hidden and next hit is a crit kinda thing. Or at least get more to do with poisons.
It’s two crits by the way, if you’re dual wielding.
So technically, if you’ve fulfilled the other Assassination criteria, your chance of two hits (let’s assume a 60% chance to hit or 84% with advantage) is a 71% chance, one hit is a 26% chance, and the chance of no hits is 3%.
So if you’re using two scimitars (1d6), your total damage with two hits at level 5 would be:
2 hits (71% of the time): Scimitar (1d6), scimitar crit (1d6), sneak (3d6), sneak crit (3d6), main hand bonus (+4), offhand scimitar (1d6), offhand scimitar crit (1d6) = 39 damage
1 hit (26% of the time): 28-32 damage
0 hits (3% of the time): 0 damage
For a total potential of 27.69+7.8+0 = 35.49
A normal Rogue would have a 9.75% chance of a crit, so their damage potential in the same situation would be:
2 hits (50% of the time): 5% crit/45% no crit: 1.95+9.68 = 11.63
1 hit (44% of the time): 4% crit/40% no crit = 1.5+6.4 = 7.9
0 hit (6% of the time): 0
For a total potential of 11.63+7.9 = 19.53
Which means an Assassin will do approximately 81% more damage than a similar rogue in this situation.
Do other rogue subclasses make up this huge difference in damage over a 2-3 round combat? Over 3-4 combats? That’s something maybe a little more complex than just looking at numbers, but I know Mastermind, Swashbuckler, and Inquisitive don’t get any great additions to damage (only novel ways to Sneak Attack each round) at these levels so it’s unlikely going to overturn this damage bonus.
Apart from analysis though, I’m much more a fan of the alternate identities feature of the subclass more anyways. It’s a completely social-specific power but something the other subclasses will never touch in terms of actually being able to pull off the perfect subversion from the inside. This makes assassination actually possible, even against the most magically protected targets - especially when you can weasel your way to the side of the king without having to fight or stealth or charisma check your way in at all.
On top of that, impostor also denies a save if the ruse isn’t suspicious. This is one of the few classes that needs nothing in Charisma to get what they want socially.
Exactly this. The crit isn’t even that much damage and it’s the ONLY combat ability the literal assassin gets until stupidly high levels. One crit a combat is hardly noteworthy these days.
honestly just make it a guaranteed crit on a surprise round, or if they are hidden at the start, or if the DM says that it should be a crit (or social situations turned less social). I would even say the assassin should also get increased crit range or a way to earn a crit at a cost. Spend a turn hidden and next hit is a crit kinda thing. Or at least get more to do with poisons.
It’s two crits by the way, if you’re dual wielding.
So technically, if you’ve fulfilled the other Assassination criteria, your chance of two hits (let’s assume a 60% chance to hit or 84% with advantage) is a 71% chance, one hit is a 26% chance, and the chance of no hits is 3%.
So if you’re using two scimitars (1d6), your total damage with two hits at level 5 would be:
2 hits (71% of the time): Scimitar (1d6), scimitar crit (1d6), sneak (3d6), sneak crit (3d6), main hand bonus (+4), offhand scimitar (1d6), offhand scimitar crit (1d6) = 39 damage
1 hit (26% of the time): 28-32 damage
0 hits (3% of the time): 0 damage
For a total potential of 27.69+7.8+0 = 35.49
A normal Rogue would have a 9.75% chance of a crit, so their damage potential in the same situation would be:
2 hits (50% of the time): 5% crit/45% no crit: 1.95+9.68 = 11.63
1 hit (44% of the time): 4% crit/40% no crit = 1.5+6.4 = 7.9
0 hit (6% of the time): 0
For a total potential of 11.63+7.9 = 19.53
Which means an Assassin will do approximately 81% more damage than a similar rogue in this situation.
Do other rogue subclasses make up this huge difference in damage over a 2-3 round combat? Over 3-4 combats? That’s something maybe a little more complex than just looking at numbers, but I know Mastermind, Swashbuckler, and Inquisitive don’t get any great additions to damage (only novel ways to Sneak Attack each round) at these levels so it’s unlikely going to overturn this damage bonus.
But its all gone if your pally misses a stealth roll....
Thats the major issue. Once again you do not factor in party at all which makes this white room math at best. This assumes everyone is on board with your plan and can execute without a hitch...if they don't you forgo your subclass for an entire encounter.
You also assume that they will be using BA each combat to do the off hand attack and not want to use any aspect of cunning action...which may or not come into play depending on the situation.
Also you assume you will roll higher than the creature you are facing for initiative which with no bonus to initiative you are looking at a flat +3 when you get the subclass most likely and there is pretty good odds you will not roll high enough to target the creature you have movement to get to....unless you do a ranged attack....which means no offhand bonus attack and thus drops the damage.
Also as mentioned this single target damage so any damage you do beyond the HP of the target is wasted....so its not hugely effective for multiple creature encounters.
Overall its fine because its a rogue and thus the base class is good enough you will find plenty of value...but its far from what I would call "great".
Exactly this. The crit isn’t even that much damage and it’s the ONLY combat ability the literal assassin gets until stupidly high levels. One crit a combat is hardly noteworthy these days.
honestly just make it a guaranteed crit on a surprise round, or if they are hidden at the start, or if the DM says that it should be a crit (or social situations turned less social). I would even say the assassin should also get increased crit range or a way to earn a crit at a cost. Spend a turn hidden and next hit is a crit kinda thing. Or at least get more to do with poisons.
It’s two crits by the way, if you’re dual wielding.
So technically, if you’ve fulfilled the other Assassination criteria, your chance of two hits (let’s assume a 60% chance to hit or 84% with advantage) is a 71% chance, one hit is a 26% chance, and the chance of no hits is 3%.
So if you’re using two scimitars (1d6), your total damage with two hits at level 5 would be:
2 hits (71% of the time): Scimitar (1d6), scimitar crit (1d6), sneak (3d6), sneak crit (3d6), main hand bonus (+4), offhand scimitar (1d6), offhand scimitar crit (1d6) = 39 damage
1 hit (26% of the time): 28-32 damage
0 hits (3% of the time): 0 damage
For a total potential of 27.69+7.8+0 = 35.49
A normal Rogue would have a 9.75% chance of a crit, so their damage potential in the same situation would be:
2 hits (50% of the time): 5% crit/45% no crit: 1.95+9.68 = 11.63
1 hit (44% of the time): 4% crit/40% no crit = 1.5+6.4 = 7.9
0 hit (6% of the time): 0
For a total potential of 11.63+7.9 = 19.53
Which means an Assassin will do approximately 81% more damage than a similar rogue in this situation.
Do other rogue subclasses make up this huge difference in damage over a 2-3 round combat? Over 3-4 combats? That’s something maybe a little more complex than just looking at numbers, but I know Mastermind, Swashbuckler, and Inquisitive don’t get any great additions to damage (only novel ways to Sneak Attack each round) at these levels so it’s unlikely going to overturn this damage bonus.
But its all gone if your pally misses a stealth roll....
Thats the major issue. Once again you do not factor in party at all which makes this white room math at best. This assumes everyone is on board with your plan and can execute without a hitch...if they don't you forgo your subclass for an entire encounter.
You also assume that they will be using BA each combat to do the off hand attack and not want to use any aspect of cunning action...which may or not come into play depending on the situation.
Also you assume you will roll higher than the creature you are facing for initiative which with no bonus to initiative you are looking at a flat +3 when you get the subclass most likely and there is pretty good odds you will not roll high enough to target the creature you have movement to get to....unless you do a ranged attack....which means no offhand bonus attack and thus drops the damage.
Also as mentioned this single target damage so any damage you do beyond the HP of the target is wasted....so its not hugely effective for multiple creature encounters.
Overall its fine because its a rogue and thus the base class is good enough you will find plenty of value...but its far from what I would call "great".
Again with this… all I can say is, if your DM requires an entire party to roll Stealth in every encounter then I suggest removing Stealth entirely from your ruleset and replace it with some homebrew (definitely worth a post in the Homebrew forums if you want to continue that discussion).
As for forgoing your subclass feature - this can happen in multiple ways for any rogue Subclass. If the chances of using an ability and the effectiveness of said ability were calculable you could maybe go ahead and do some assessments, but I’m not here to do the work for you.
Some introspective thinking for you to consider: I’ve never not had a round without Sneak Attack in all my years of playing DnD 5e rogues and I’ve never played a Swashbuckler rogue - does that mean Rakish Audacity is a worthless class feature? I certainly don’t think it is, but do you? Certainly you’ll point at the other ribbon feature about initiative… to which I would point out the other ribbon feature within the Assassin class feature that also works on almost every combat.
The math stands on its own - the damage calculations are generously in favour of the Assassin in the exact scenario I listed and you’re quite capable of adjusting the numbers to compare using the BA for something else and show the numbers as well. If you insist on making claims (“And the auto-crit isn’t even that much damage”) that are easily disproven with plain and simple data and then dismiss it with literal red-herrings like “Oh yeah well Pally Sneak” and “What if they don’t use their Bonus Action” I have to assume you’re just avoiding the discussion entirely at this point.
Exactly this. The crit isn’t even that much damage and it’s the ONLY combat ability the literal assassin gets until stupidly high levels. One crit a combat is hardly noteworthy these days.
honestly just make it a guaranteed crit on a surprise round, or if they are hidden at the start, or if the DM says that it should be a crit (or social situations turned less social). I would even say the assassin should also get increased crit range or a way to earn a crit at a cost. Spend a turn hidden and next hit is a crit kinda thing. Or at least get more to do with poisons.
It’s two crits by the way, if you’re dual wielding.
So technically, if you’ve fulfilled the other Assassination criteria, your chance of two hits (let’s assume a 60% chance to hit or 84% with advantage) is a 71% chance, one hit is a 26% chance, and the chance of no hits is 3%.
So if you’re using two scimitars (1d6), your total damage with two hits at level 5 would be:
2 hits (71% of the time): Scimitar (1d6), scimitar crit (1d6), sneak (3d6), sneak crit (3d6), main hand bonus (+4), offhand scimitar (1d6), offhand scimitar crit (1d6) = 39 damage
1 hit (26% of the time): 28-32 damage
0 hits (3% of the time): 0 damage
For a total potential of 27.69+7.8+0 = 35.49
A normal Rogue would have a 9.75% chance of a crit, so their damage potential in the same situation would be:
2 hits (50% of the time): 5% crit/45% no crit: 1.95+9.68 = 11.63
1 hit (44% of the time): 4% crit/40% no crit = 1.5+6.4 = 7.9
0 hit (6% of the time): 0
For a total potential of 11.63+7.9 = 19.53
Which means an Assassin will do approximately 81% more damage than a similar rogue in this situation.
Do other rogue subclasses make up this huge difference in damage over a 2-3 round combat? Over 3-4 combats? That’s something maybe a little more complex than just looking at numbers, but I know Mastermind, Swashbuckler, and Inquisitive don’t get any great additions to damage (only novel ways to Sneak Attack each round) at these levels so it’s unlikely going to overturn this damage bonus.
But its all gone if your pally misses a stealth roll....
Thats the major issue. Once again you do not factor in party at all which makes this white room math at best. This assumes everyone is on board with your plan and can execute without a hitch...if they don't you forgo your subclass for an entire encounter.
You also assume that they will be using BA each combat to do the off hand attack and not want to use any aspect of cunning action...which may or not come into play depending on the situation.
Also you assume you will roll higher than the creature you are facing for initiative which with no bonus to initiative you are looking at a flat +3 when you get the subclass most likely and there is pretty good odds you will not roll high enough to target the creature you have movement to get to....unless you do a ranged attack....which means no offhand bonus attack and thus drops the damage.
Also as mentioned this single target damage so any damage you do beyond the HP of the target is wasted....so its not hugely effective for multiple creature encounters.
Overall its fine because its a rogue and thus the base class is good enough you will find plenty of value...but its far from what I would call "great".
Again with this… all I can say is, if your DM requires an entire party to roll Stealth in every encounter then I suggest removing Stealth entirely from your ruleset and replace it with some homebrew (definitely worth a post in the Homebrew forums if you want to continue that discussion).
As for forgoing your subclass feature - this can happen in multiple ways for any rogue Subclass. If the chances of using an ability and the effectiveness of said ability were calculable you could maybe go ahead and do some assessments, but I’m not here to do the work for you.
Some introspective thinking for you to consider: I’ve never not had a round without Sneak Attack in all my years of playing DnD 5e rogues and I’ve never played a Swashbuckler rogue - does that mean Rakish Audacity is a worthless class feature? I certainly don’t think it is, but do you? Certainly you’ll point at the other ribbon feature about initiative… to which I would point out the other ribbon feature within the Assassin class feature that also works on almost every combat.
The math stands on its own - the damage calculations are generously in favour of the Assassin in the exact scenario I listed and you’re quite capable of adjusting the numbers to compare using the BA for something else and show the numbers as well. If you insist on making claims (“And the auto-crit isn’t even that much damage”) that are easily disproven with plain and simple data and then dismiss it with literal red-herrings like “Oh yeah well Pally Sneak” and “What if they don’t use their Bonus Action” I have to assume you’re just avoiding the discussion entirely at this point.
You can still get sneak attack and that's expected...
What's not expected is to get surprise, roll high on initiative and hit with your attack all while keeping your party in stealth every combat or even once a day.
Frankly it's just better design to have something more likely.
Thought of the day. The surprise crit power of Assassin is overpowered by design. You aren't supposed to get it every combat.
The real feature is the free advantage round 1 when you beat someone on initiative. That is about on par with the other rogue classes for level 3 abilities.
Thought of the day. The surprise crit power of Assassin is overpowered by design. You aren't supposed to get it every combat.
The real feature is the free advantage round 1 when you beat someone on initiative. That is about on par with the other rogue classes for level 3 abilities.
Uhh. It’s not overpowered? Like at all. It’s so conditional I expect it to be a crit plus a bit to be worth fighting for. Rogues already fall behind other Martials with melee damage most of the time. Yeah you get the occasional big hit but a grave cleric can give on demand vulnerability. Anyone with any hold spell gives a full team crits. A single big crit isn’t that big a deal. Rogues already have a 10% chance to crit with advantage anyway
and all rogues get advantage if they just steady aim. Or hide. Advantage is a dime a dozen for rogue.
Thought of the day. The surprise crit power of Assassin is overpowered by design. You aren't supposed to get it every combat.
The real feature is the free advantage round 1 when you beat someone on initiative. That is about on par with the other rogue classes for level 3 abilities.
I would say this is good... If you got any bonus to initiative to pair with it.
As is it's not like you have amazing odds to beat a good amount of creatures.
I'm playing a lvl 5 Dhampir (Lvl 4 Rogue Swashbuckler / Lvl 1 Fighter) and I already feel very powerful. Dhampir gives me darkvision, good racial ASI boosts, a hands free version of spider climb, no need to breath, and a d4 +4 fanged bite that can be used x3 per long rest to either heal or give a bonus to my next attack. Add in Second Wind and that's 2 excellent ways to heal myself.
I Also picked Duel Wielder for my LvL 4 feat so I get +1 AC and the ability to use 2 rapiers which I've combined with the Fighter's TWF fighting style for +4 on my offhand. That's two opportunities to deliver my sneak attack per turn, and hopefully more when I get Action Surge. I can't wait to get manuvers so I can use Riposte and Brace as reactions to get another sneak attack per round if the conditions are right. I might even pick up Sentinel at some point depending on how things go.
I felt that way at level 5 as well. By level 8, when my GWM Paladin buddy was laying down 80+ hit points of damage in a given nova round, my Druid buddy was polymorphing our NPC companion into a T-Rex, and my Wizard buddy was dropping spells like Hypnotic Pattern and Counterspell at clutch moments, I was feeling considerably less smug. Rogues do really well at low levels. At higher levels, Rogues like other pure martials tend to get outclassed in combat by Paladins and full spellcasters, so your sense of self-worth starts to revolve more and more around your out-of-combat skill-monkey utility with things like Reliable Talent.
Hmmm...I want to break this down a bit based on my interpretation of it. My emphasis added in BOLD.
"The DM determines who might be surprised."
Well, this is obvious. That's what the DM is for.
"If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other."
This assumes at least 2 (two) opposing sides, likely, the Party and the Enemy. It also assumes that the Party is not attempting to be stealthy. This is where things get situational as with most things. It seems correct to assume that if the entire party is together (we'll say within 60 feet of each other) and the party contains members that may not be the best at succeeding on a stealth check without assistance stealth checks will fail and the surprise will be missed for both sides. Thus combat continues as normal.
However, the stealthier characters (such as rogues, rangers, etc.) should not be so close to the rest of the party if they know/suspect an enemy may be nearby. This is where that session zero and speaking with the DM about how they want to run stealth/surprise/combat comes in as well as Party members understanding the strengths and weaknesses of their fellow adventurers. For example, as a tank I wouldn't drag mobs closer to the squishier Party members without a DGR.
"Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side."
Here is where the Party's Marching Order (PHB pg. 182 which also lays out Stealth and Noticing Threats) comes into play. Ideally, the Rogue/Ranger/Stealthier characters should occupy the front rank if stealth is to be considered for possible Enemy encounters with the less stealthy Party members occupying the back rank (or middle and back if applicable). This is mentioned in the PHB under the Stealth and Noticing Threats sections.
If the entire party is moving as a single rank or entity the chances of surprise are going to be less likely. That, IMHO, is not a dig on Assassin Rogue subclass. This is where, again, a conversation needs to be had with the party about Marching Order. Obviously, the Party or , at least the front rank, gaining surprise on the Enemy every encounter would be optimal but not entirely realistic. This, again, is not a dig on the Assassin Rogue subclass as there can be situations where every subclass ability for every class will be adversely affected by external forces beyond the Party's control.
In situations where the front rank (stealthy Party members) is likely to encounter the Enemy independent of the rest of the Party it makes zero sense for the DM to force the entire Party to roll for stealth. It states in the Stealth section specifically that splitting up the party can permit stealthier characters to do stealthier things. In this case, we can go back to the earlier part concerning "neither side" being stealthy. We now have more than 2 assumed sides, The stealthy members of the Adventuring Party, the Non-Stealthy members of the Adventuring Party and the Enemy. In the case of appropriate Marching Order, the non-stealthy members of the adventuring Party are not encountering the Enemy first and (unless they are being obnoxious or intentionally loud) should not factor into determining if the Enemy is surprised (by the stealthy characters).
"Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter."
Here I concede the wording can be slightly better. By saying "A threat", it can imply that should the Enemy notice the non-stealthy Party members (a threat) that surprise is no longer possible even if the stealthy Party members (a different threat) have not been noticed. That said, with appropriate Marching Order this should rarely, if ever, happen. Better wording, IMHO, would be as follows:
"Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter by the threat that went unnoticed."
However, the unaltered wording could mean that if 1 or more Party members are hidden (successful stealth check) and go unnoticed when an encounter begins (which is PRIOR to initiative being rolled) then the character or monster that didn't notice ALL the threats is still surprised by those unnoticed Party Members. I say this because essentially the Party split between stealthy members (threat 1) and less-stealthy members (threat 2) indicates that the character or monster has to notice both threats or falls under the wording of "doesn't notice a threat", that threat being the stealthy Party members. I further support this interpretation because of the other abilities that rogues (especially Assassins) have in using duplicity to get to a target. If a rogue disguises themselves to get close to a target (and successfully does) even if the Rogue is right in front of them when they pull their dagger/sword/whatever, the target may notice the character but they don't notice the threat until it is too late for them to act.
Personally, I would rule that if the Party is split between stealthy and less/non-stealthy members and the stealthy members happen upon an Enemy surprise can be achieved independent of the non-stealthy members as long as the situation would indicate that the Enemy isn't aware of the stealthy Party members and have not taken action against the less/non-stealthy members.
Hmmm...I want to break this down a bit based on my interpretation of it. My emphasis added in BOLD.
"The DM determines who might be surprised."
Well, this is obvious. That's what the DM is for.
"If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other."
This assumes at least 2 (two) opposing sides, likely, the Party and the Enemy. It also assumes that the Party is not attempting to be stealthy. This is where things get situational as with most things. It seems correct to assume that if the entire party is together (we'll say within 60 feet of each other) and the party contains members that may not be the best at succeeding on a stealth check without assistance stealth checks will fail and the surprise will be missed for both sides. Thus combat continues as normal.
However, the stealthier characters (such as rogues, rangers, etc.) should not be so close to the rest of the party if they know/suspect an enemy may be nearby. This is where that session zero and speaking with the DM about how they want to run stealth/surprise/combat comes in as well as Party members understanding the strengths and weaknesses of their fellow adventurers. For example, as a tank I wouldn't drag mobs closer to the squishier Party members without a DGR.
"Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side."
Here is where the Party's Marching Order (PHB pg. 182 which also lays out Stealth and Noticing Threats) comes into play. Ideally, the Rogue/Ranger/Stealthier characters should occupy the front rank if stealth is to be considered for possible Enemy encounters with the less stealthy Party members occupying the back rank (or middle and back if applicable). This is mentioned in the PHB under the Stealth and Noticing Threats sections.
If the entire party is moving as a single rank or entity the chances of surprise are going to be less likely. That, IMHO, is not a dig on Assassin Rogue subclass. This is where, again, a conversation needs to be had with the party about Marching Order. Obviously, the Party or , at least the front rank, gaining surprise on the Enemy every encounter would be optimal but not entirely realistic. This, again, is not a dig on the Assassin Rogue subclass as there can be situations where every subclass ability for every class will be adversely affected by external forces beyond the Party's control.
In situations where the front rank (stealthy Party members) is likely to encounter the Enemy independent of the rest of the Party it makes zero sense for the DM to force the entire Party to roll for stealth. It states in the Stealth section specifically that splitting up the party can permit stealthier characters to do stealthier things. In this case, we can go back to the earlier part concerning "neither side" being stealthy. We now have more than 2 assumed sides, The stealthy members of the Adventuring Party, the Non-Stealthy members of the Adventuring Party and the Enemy. In the case of appropriate Marching Order, the non-stealthy members of the adventuring Party are not encountering the Enemy first and (unless they are being obnoxious or intentionally loud) should not factor into determining if the Enemy is surprised (by the stealthy characters).
"Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter."
Here I concede the wording can be slightly better. By saying "A threat", it can imply that should the Enemy notice the non-stealthy Party members (a threat) that surprise is no longer possible even if the stealthy Party members (a different threat) have not been noticed. That said, with appropriate Marching Order this should rarely, if ever, happen. Better wording, IMHO, would be as follows:
"Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter by the threat that went unnoticed."
However, the unaltered wording could mean that if 1 or more Party members are hidden (successful stealth check) and go unnoticed when an encounter begins (which is PRIOR to initiative being rolled) then the character or monster that didn't notice ALL the threats is still surprised by those unnoticed Party Members. I say this because essentially the Party split between stealthy members (threat 1) and less-stealthy members (threat 2) indicates that the character or monster has to notice both threats or falls under the wording of "doesn't notice a threat", that threat being the stealthy Party members. I further support this interpretation because of the other abilities that rogues (especially Assassins) have in using duplicity to get to a target. If a rogue disguises themselves to get close to a target (and successfully does) even if the Rogue is right in front of them when they pull their dagger/sword/whatever, the target may notice the character but they don't notice the threat until it is too late for them to act.
Personally, I would rule that if the Party is split between stealthy and less/non-stealthy members and the stealthy members happen upon an Enemy surprise can be achieved independent of the non-stealthy members as long as the situation would indicate that the Enemy isn't aware of the stealthy Party members and have not taken action against the less/non-stealthy members.
But that's just me.
The fact you have to break it down in such a way is the major issue IMO....PF2E does it much better.
In PF2e you can roll just about ANY skill for initiative. The default is perception (which honestly makes sense)....however you can do anything as long as you can attempt to justify it to the DM.
You can use Deception ("Hey look over there!"), Athletics ("I kick down the door hoping to catch them off guard"), and lastly for rogues....Stealth ("I sneak up and attack") If you roll a higher initative than the enemy with a Stealth roll they are flat-footed (PF2e version of ADV for the most part) and you get your sneak attack on them.
The way prof. works in PF2e is that you can literally dump a stat but still have a huge modifier in that skill if you continue to train in it. You can get a +10 to deception without needing to invest in CHA.
So with that in mind here is another way you could change it:
1. Assassin able to roll stealth for initiative (if applicable) or deception (if applicable). DM can also allow other skills on their discretion
2. Attacks against creatures that have not acted are still at advantage.
3. Any attack you take with your first attack action on your first turn (thus preventing MC action surge cheese) can apply sneak attack. The BA attack from TWF would apply here as well.
4. Forgo the auto-critical part of the ability.
To me this improves the ability in several ways:
1. Less single target damage- With the ability able to target multiple creatures with sneak attack you could take down two mob enemies instead if you wanted....or go big on the big bad your choice.
2. Less clunk- Sneaking? Roll stealth for initiative. Acting like someone else? Deception. Doesn't matter what your buddy is doing as it doesnt play a part at all. DM would still be good to shut it down if applicable.
3. Firm benefit- you get your ability most of the time without having to pick up a feat to boost your initiative and you get to have fun playing into different strategies to get close.
Thought of the day. The surprise crit power of Assassin is overpowered by design. You aren't supposed to get it every combat.
The real feature is the free advantage round 1 when you beat someone on initiative. That is about on par with the other rogue classes for level 3 abilities.
I would say this is good... If you got any bonus to initiative to pair with it.
As is it's not like you have amazing odds to beat a good amount of creatures.
I even broke down the odds in a spreadsheet for you that uses the average scores of every single creature in the game at every CR level.
66.6% chance of winning Init, 56.9% cumulative chance hitting at least once, without Alert.
80.5% chance of winning Init, 64% cumulative chance of hitting at least once, with Alert.
It gets better every level too, btw.
The only other issue is Stealth, which you seem to have meandered from: a) hide doesn’t work, to b) the whole group needs to roll and the Paladin wearing plate mail will ruin everything, to c) No assassin would take Alert, that’s silly, to d) PF2E let’s you roll Deception to surprise and that’s impossible in DnD because the rules are so rigid that a DM would never let you use a disguise to get close and surprise your opponents.
My DMs absolutely would allow surprise if I approached on my own and distracted the guards with a disguise. Maybe your issue is your DM?
Thought of the day. The surprise crit power of Assassin is overpowered by design. You aren't supposed to get it every combat.
The real feature is the free advantage round 1 when you beat someone on initiative. That is about on par with the other rogue classes for level 3 abilities.
I would say this is good... If you got any bonus to initiative to pair with it.
As is it's not like you have amazing odds to beat a good amount of creatures.
I even broke down the odds in a spreadsheet for you that uses the average scores of every single creature in the game at every CR level.
66.6% chance of winning Init, 56.9% cumulative chance hitting at least once, without Alert.
80.5% chance of winning Init, 64% cumulative chance of hitting at least once, with Alert.
It gets better every level too, btw.
The only other issue is Stealth, which you seem to have meandered from: a) hide doesn’t work, to b) the whole group needs to roll and the Paladin wearing plate mail will ruin everything, to c) No assassin would take Alert, that’s silly, to d) PF2E let’s you roll Deception to surprise and that’s impossible in DnD because the rules are so rigid that a DM would never let you use a disguise to get close and surprise your opponents.
My DMs absolutely would allow surprise if I approached on my own and distracted the guards with a disguise. Maybe your issue is your DM?
It's not just mine as the intent is that the party either rolls as one or the rogue is by themselves...
Neither of which is good for the rogue.
56.9% chance of getting your subclass? That's ******* terrible my dude.....
Like even in the best scenario (completely ignoring your party which is not really realistic anyway) without a feat its barely better than a coin flip that you actually get your subclass? That is worse than I thought....
The whole "the subclass sucks because your GM Might not let it work" argument feels weird to me because you can apply it to almost anyone. Wizards are universally considered amazing, but any GM can throw in some anti-magic bullshit to ruin their day. Gloomstalkers are considered by many to be one of, if not the best ranger subclass in 5e... but a melee gloomstalker loses most of their subclass if an enemy starts 50 feet away from them. Etc. etc. It's pretty universal.
The whole "the subclass sucks because your GM Might not let it work" argument feels weird to me because you can apply it to almost anyone. Wizards are universally considered amazing, but any GM can throw in some anti-magic bullshit to ruin their day. Gloomstalkers are considered by many to be one of, if not the best ranger subclass in 5e... but a melee gloomstalker loses most of their subclass if an enemy starts 50 feet away from them. Etc. etc. It's pretty universal.
While the heart of that concern may be true its especially true or at least much easier to conceive with Assassin. The abilities rely on specific circumstances that as you can see (56% ooof) may not happen enough to make it worthwhile.
I would absolutely agree with you on Illusion based wizards for the same reason....but evocation based wizards would not have the same limitations.
Overall you could get a glimmer of how the subclasses and classes will work with discussions with your DM but ultimately its not going to be known until you actually play and get with the group.
Thought of the day. The surprise crit power of Assassin is overpowered by design. You aren't supposed to get it every combat.
The real feature is the free advantage round 1 when you beat someone on initiative. That is about on par with the other rogue classes for level 3 abilities.
I would say this is good... If you got any bonus to initiative to pair with it.
As is it's not like you have amazing odds to beat a good amount of creatures.
I even broke down the odds in a spreadsheet for you that uses the average scores of every single creature in the game at every CR level.
66.6% chance of winning Init, 56.9% cumulative chance hitting at least once, without Alert.
80.5% chance of winning Init, 64% cumulative chance of hitting at least once, with Alert.
It gets better every level too, btw.
The only other issue is Stealth, which you seem to have meandered from: a) hide doesn’t work, to b) the whole group needs to roll and the Paladin wearing plate mail will ruin everything, to c) No assassin would take Alert, that’s silly, to d) PF2E let’s you roll Deception to surprise and that’s impossible in DnD because the rules are so rigid that a DM would never let you use a disguise to get close and surprise your opponents.
My DMs absolutely would allow surprise if I approached on my own and distracted the guards with a disguise. Maybe your issue is your DM?
It's not just mine as the intent is that the party either rolls as one or the rogue is by themselves...
Neither of which is good for the rogue.
56.9% chance of getting your subclass? That's ******* terrible my dude.....
Like even in the best scenario (completely ignoring your party which is not really realistic anyway) without a feat its barely better than a coin flip that you actually get your subclass? That is worse than I thought....
The fact you refuse to actually click the link and try it out is telling. Otherwise, you’d actually see I downplayed the percentage because that’s literally the lowest it ever gets with the worst optimization. And assumes you never take Alert too, or get initiative bonuses, or weapons bonuses, or items that improve stealth, etc.
64% for level 5, but higher (closer to 70%) against anything less than CR5. 8d6+3 (ave 31)
76% at level 9, but higher (closer to 82%) against anything less than CR9. 12d6+4 (ave 46)
80% at level 10, but higher (closer to 85%) against anything less than CR8. 13d6+4 (ave 49.5)
84% at level 13, but higher (closer to 86%) against anything less than CR10. 17d6+4 (ave 62.5).
82% at level 17, but higher (closer to 86%) against anything less than CR15. 19d6 (ave 70.5), 65% chance of 141 ave damage.
81% at level 20, but higher (closer to 84%) against anything less than CR18. 21d6 (ave 77.5), 65% chance of 145 ave damage.
Add a Weapon of Warning at any time and all of those numbers turn to 80-95% chances. I’ll also add, I didn’t even take Reliable Talent into effect, which will add about 11% to every score above as well, if you have it.
Name me ONE subclass ability of any rogue class that can do that much consistent damage. I’m listening. But that’s kinda your schtick isn’t it? Make a claim, and pretend it’s bad even though you have no counterexample.
Its also not the entire subclass feature - it’s only the aspect of getting surprise, otherwise you still get the critical hits (which is still much more likely).
Thought of the day. The surprise crit power of Assassin is overpowered by design. You aren't supposed to get it every combat.
The real feature is the free advantage round 1 when you beat someone on initiative. That is about on par with the other rogue classes for level 3 abilities.
I would say this is good... If you got any bonus to initiative to pair with it.
As is it's not like you have amazing odds to beat a good amount of creatures.
I even broke down the odds in a spreadsheet for you that uses the average scores of every single creature in the game at every CR level.
66.6% chance of winning Init, 56.9% cumulative chance hitting at least once, without Alert.
80.5% chance of winning Init, 64% cumulative chance of hitting at least once, with Alert.
It gets better every level too, btw.
The only other issue is Stealth, which you seem to have meandered from: a) hide doesn’t work, to b) the whole group needs to roll and the Paladin wearing plate mail will ruin everything, to c) No assassin would take Alert, that’s silly, to d) PF2E let’s you roll Deception to surprise and that’s impossible in DnD because the rules are so rigid that a DM would never let you use a disguise to get close and surprise your opponents.
My DMs absolutely would allow surprise if I approached on my own and distracted the guards with a disguise. Maybe your issue is your DM?
It's not just mine as the intent is that the party either rolls as one or the rogue is by themselves...
Neither of which is good for the rogue.
56.9% chance of getting your subclass? That's ****ing terrible my dude.....
Like even in the best scenario (completely ignoring your party which is not really realistic anyway) without a feat its barely better than a coin flip that you actually get your subclass? That is worse than I thought....
The fact you refuse to actually click the link and try it out is telling. Otherwise, you’d actually see I downplayed the percentage because that’s literally the lowest it ever gets with the worst optimization. And assumes you never take Alert too, or get initiative bonuses, or weapons bonuses, or items that improve stealth, etc.
64% for level 5, but higher (closer to 70%) against anything less than CR5. 8d6+3 (ave 31)
76% at level 9, but higher (closer to 82%) against anything less than CR9. 12d6+4 (ave 46)
80% at level 10, but higher (closer to 85%) against anything less than CR8. 13d6+4 (ave 49.5)
84% at level 13, but higher (closer to 86%) against anything less than CR10. 17d6+4 (ave 62.5).
82% at level 17, but higher (closer to 86%) against anything less than CR15. 19d6 (ave 70.5), 65% chance of 141 ave damage.
81% at level 20, but higher (closer to 84%) against anything less than CR18. 21d6 (ave 77.5), 65% chance of 145 ave damage.
Add a Weapon of Warning at any time and all of those numbers turn to 80-95% chances. I’ll also add, I didn’t even take Reliable Talent into effect, which will add about 11% to every score above as well, if you have it.
Name me ONE subclass ability of any rogue class that can do that much consistent damage. I’m listening. But that’s kinda your schtick isn’t it? Make a claim, and pretend it’s bad even though you have no counterexample.
Its also not the entire subclass feature - it’s only the aspect of getting surprise, otherwise you still get the critical hits (which is still much more likely).
TBH your document is not good.... There's no work just a number in a Google sheet. I'm not sure what to do with it other than use the numbers you provided and I did.
you said 56% so I'm just quoting you my dude....
The extra damage is not worth only getting your subclass 56% of the time.
46 damage once per encounter is not really that good at level 9+.... especially considering what you are giving up with the other subclasses to get it.
Plus you still ignore the rest of the party so this 80% or whatever business is just white room math with no real application in any normal party.
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yeah exactly its laid out right there...if you do not attempt a stealth roll = no surprise in my book.
And even then the Auto-Crit isn't even much damage...at the levels of play that 99% of people play at its like 11.5 damage (3rd level) to 22 points (10th level) extra damage once per encounter.
Since its single target damage any overkill damage is lost....so generally I think the other rouge features are more useful on a day to day basis and versatility is definitely not one of the strong suits of the Assassin.
Its fine and whatever but honestly having a subclass that allows you to get your sneak attack off turn more often or have a bonus to Initiative is generally going to produce near the same effect but you get other bonuses that apply to other aspects of the game.
Exactly this. The crit isn’t even that much damage and it’s the ONLY combat ability the literal assassin gets until stupidly high levels. One crit a combat is hardly noteworthy these days.
honestly just make it a guaranteed crit on a surprise round, or if they are hidden at the start, or if the DM says that it should be a crit (or social situations turned less social). I would even say the assassin should also get increased crit range or a way to earn a crit at a cost. Spend a turn hidden and next hit is a crit kinda thing. Or at least get more to do with poisons.
It’s two crits by the way, if you’re dual wielding.
So technically, if you’ve fulfilled the other Assassination criteria, your chance of two hits (let’s assume a 60% chance to hit or 84% with advantage) is a 71% chance, one hit is a 26% chance, and the chance of no hits is 3%.
So if you’re using two scimitars (1d6), your total damage with two hits at level 5 would be:
2 hits (71% of the time): Scimitar (1d6), scimitar crit (1d6), sneak (3d6), sneak crit (3d6), main hand bonus (+4), offhand scimitar (1d6), offhand scimitar crit (1d6) = 39 damage
1 hit (26% of the time): 28-32 damage
0 hits (3% of the time): 0 damage
For a total potential of 27.69+7.8+0 = 35.49
A normal Rogue would have a 9.75% chance of a crit, so their damage potential in the same situation would be:
2 hits (50% of the time): 5% crit/45% no crit: 1.95+9.68 = 11.63
1 hit (44% of the time): 4% crit/40% no crit = 1.5+6.4 = 7.9
0 hit (6% of the time): 0
For a total potential of 11.63+7.9 = 19.53
Which means an Assassin will do approximately 81% more damage than a similar rogue in this situation.
Do other rogue subclasses make up this huge difference in damage over a 2-3 round combat? Over 3-4 combats? That’s something maybe a little more complex than just looking at numbers, but I know Mastermind, Swashbuckler, and Inquisitive don’t get any great additions to damage (only novel ways to Sneak Attack each round) at these levels so it’s unlikely going to overturn this damage bonus.
Apart from analysis though, I’m much more a fan of the alternate identities feature of the subclass more anyways. It’s a completely social-specific power but something the other subclasses will never touch in terms of actually being able to pull off the perfect subversion from the inside. This makes assassination actually possible, even against the most magically protected targets - especially when you can weasel your way to the side of the king without having to fight or stealth or charisma check your way in at all.
On top of that, impostor also denies a save if the ruse isn’t suspicious. This is one of the few classes that needs nothing in Charisma to get what they want socially.
Good discussions guys
But its all gone if your pally misses a stealth roll....
Thats the major issue. Once again you do not factor in party at all which makes this white room math at best. This assumes everyone is on board with your plan and can execute without a hitch...if they don't you forgo your subclass for an entire encounter.
You also assume that they will be using BA each combat to do the off hand attack and not want to use any aspect of cunning action...which may or not come into play depending on the situation.
Also you assume you will roll higher than the creature you are facing for initiative which with no bonus to initiative you are looking at a flat +3 when you get the subclass most likely and there is pretty good odds you will not roll high enough to target the creature you have movement to get to....unless you do a ranged attack....which means no offhand bonus attack and thus drops the damage.
Also as mentioned this single target damage so any damage you do beyond the HP of the target is wasted....so its not hugely effective for multiple creature encounters.
Overall its fine because its a rogue and thus the base class is good enough you will find plenty of value...but its far from what I would call "great".
Again with this… all I can say is, if your DM requires an entire party to roll Stealth in every encounter then I suggest removing Stealth entirely from your ruleset and replace it with some homebrew (definitely worth a post in the Homebrew forums if you want to continue that discussion).
As for forgoing your subclass feature - this can happen in multiple ways for any rogue Subclass. If the chances of using an ability and the effectiveness of said ability were calculable you could maybe go ahead and do some assessments, but I’m not here to do the work for you.
Some introspective thinking for you to consider: I’ve never not had a round without Sneak Attack in all my years of playing DnD 5e rogues and I’ve never played a Swashbuckler rogue - does that mean Rakish Audacity is a worthless class feature? I certainly don’t think it is, but do you? Certainly you’ll point at the other ribbon feature about initiative… to which I would point out the other ribbon feature within the Assassin class feature that also works on almost every combat.
The math stands on its own - the damage calculations are generously in favour of the Assassin in the exact scenario I listed and you’re quite capable of adjusting the numbers to compare using the BA for something else and show the numbers as well. If you insist on making claims (“And the auto-crit isn’t even that much damage”) that are easily disproven with plain and simple data and then dismiss it with literal red-herrings like “Oh yeah well Pally Sneak” and “What if they don’t use their Bonus Action” I have to assume you’re just avoiding the discussion entirely at this point.
You can still get sneak attack and that's expected...
What's not expected is to get surprise, roll high on initiative and hit with your attack all while keeping your party in stealth every combat or even once a day.
Frankly it's just better design to have something more likely.
Thought of the day. The surprise crit power of Assassin is overpowered by design. You aren't supposed to get it every combat.
The real feature is the free advantage round 1 when you beat someone on initiative. That is about on par with the other rogue classes for level 3 abilities.
Uhh. It’s not overpowered? Like at all. It’s so conditional I expect it to be a crit plus a bit to be worth fighting for. Rogues already fall behind other Martials with melee damage most of the time. Yeah you get the occasional big hit but a grave cleric can give on demand vulnerability. Anyone with any hold spell gives a full team crits. A single big crit isn’t that big a deal. Rogues already have a 10% chance to crit with advantage anyway
and all rogues get advantage if they just steady aim. Or hide. Advantage is a dime a dozen for rogue.
I would say this is good... If you got any bonus to initiative to pair with it.
As is it's not like you have amazing odds to beat a good amount of creatures.
I felt that way at level 5 as well. By level 8, when my GWM Paladin buddy was laying down 80+ hit points of damage in a given nova round, my Druid buddy was polymorphing our NPC companion into a T-Rex, and my Wizard buddy was dropping spells like Hypnotic Pattern and Counterspell at clutch moments, I was feeling considerably less smug. Rogues do really well at low levels. At higher levels, Rogues like other pure martials tend to get outclassed in combat by Paladins and full spellcasters, so your sense of self-worth starts to revolve more and more around your out-of-combat skill-monkey utility with things like Reliable Talent.
Hmmm...I want to break this down a bit based on my interpretation of it. My emphasis added in BOLD.
"The DM determines who might be surprised."
Well, this is obvious. That's what the DM is for.
"If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other."
This assumes at least 2 (two) opposing sides, likely, the Party and the Enemy. It also assumes that the Party is not attempting to be stealthy. This is where things get situational as with most things. It seems correct to assume that if the entire party is together (we'll say within 60 feet of each other) and the party contains members that may not be the best at succeeding on a stealth check without assistance stealth checks will fail and the surprise will be missed for both sides. Thus combat continues as normal.
However, the stealthier characters (such as rogues, rangers, etc.) should not be so close to the rest of the party if they know/suspect an enemy may be nearby. This is where that session zero and speaking with the DM about how they want to run stealth/surprise/combat comes in as well as Party members understanding the strengths and weaknesses of their fellow adventurers. For example, as a tank I wouldn't drag mobs closer to the squishier Party members without a DGR.
"Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side."
Here is where the Party's Marching Order (PHB pg. 182 which also lays out Stealth and Noticing Threats) comes into play. Ideally, the Rogue/Ranger/Stealthier characters should occupy the front rank if stealth is to be considered for possible Enemy encounters with the less stealthy Party members occupying the back rank (or middle and back if applicable). This is mentioned in the PHB under the Stealth and Noticing Threats sections.
If the entire party is moving as a single rank or entity the chances of surprise are going to be less likely. That, IMHO, is not a dig on Assassin Rogue subclass. This is where, again, a conversation needs to be had with the party about Marching Order. Obviously, the Party or , at least the front rank, gaining surprise on the Enemy every encounter would be optimal but not entirely realistic. This, again, is not a dig on the Assassin Rogue subclass as there can be situations where every subclass ability for every class will be adversely affected by external forces beyond the Party's control.
In situations where the front rank (stealthy Party members) is likely to encounter the Enemy independent of the rest of the Party it makes zero sense for the DM to force the entire Party to roll for stealth. It states in the Stealth section specifically that splitting up the party can permit stealthier characters to do stealthier things. In this case, we can go back to the earlier part concerning "neither side" being stealthy. We now have more than 2 assumed sides, The stealthy members of the Adventuring Party, the Non-Stealthy members of the Adventuring Party and the Enemy. In the case of appropriate Marching Order, the non-stealthy members of the adventuring Party are not encountering the Enemy first and (unless they are being obnoxious or intentionally loud) should not factor into determining if the Enemy is surprised (by the stealthy characters).
"Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter."
Here I concede the wording can be slightly better. By saying "A threat", it can imply that should the Enemy notice the non-stealthy Party members (a threat) that surprise is no longer possible even if the stealthy Party members (a different threat) have not been noticed. That said, with appropriate Marching Order this should rarely, if ever, happen. Better wording, IMHO, would be as follows:
"Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter by the threat that went unnoticed."
However, the unaltered wording could mean that if 1 or more Party members are hidden (successful stealth check) and go unnoticed when an encounter begins (which is PRIOR to initiative being rolled) then the character or monster that didn't notice ALL the threats is still surprised by those unnoticed Party Members. I say this because essentially the Party split between stealthy members (threat 1) and less-stealthy members (threat 2) indicates that the character or monster has to notice both threats or falls under the wording of "doesn't notice a threat", that threat being the stealthy Party members. I further support this interpretation because of the other abilities that rogues (especially Assassins) have in using duplicity to get to a target. If a rogue disguises themselves to get close to a target (and successfully does) even if the Rogue is right in front of them when they pull their dagger/sword/whatever, the target may notice the character but they don't notice the threat until it is too late for them to act.
Personally, I would rule that if the Party is split between stealthy and less/non-stealthy members and the stealthy members happen upon an Enemy surprise can be achieved independent of the non-stealthy members as long as the situation would indicate that the Enemy isn't aware of the stealthy Party members and have not taken action against the less/non-stealthy members.
But that's just me.
A good book and a cup of tea.
Homebrew| Bard: College of Composition
Feedback Appreciated!
The fact you have to break it down in such a way is the major issue IMO....PF2E does it much better.
In PF2e you can roll just about ANY skill for initiative. The default is perception (which honestly makes sense)....however you can do anything as long as you can attempt to justify it to the DM.
You can use Deception ("Hey look over there!"), Athletics ("I kick down the door hoping to catch them off guard"), and lastly for rogues....Stealth ("I sneak up and attack") If you roll a higher initative than the enemy with a Stealth roll they are flat-footed (PF2e version of ADV for the most part) and you get your sneak attack on them.
The way prof. works in PF2e is that you can literally dump a stat but still have a huge modifier in that skill if you continue to train in it. You can get a +10 to deception without needing to invest in CHA.
So with that in mind here is another way you could change it:
1. Assassin able to roll stealth for initiative (if applicable) or deception (if applicable). DM can also allow other skills on their discretion
2. Attacks against creatures that have not acted are still at advantage.
3. Any attack you take with your first attack action on your first turn (thus preventing MC action surge cheese) can apply sneak attack. The BA attack from TWF would apply here as well.
4. Forgo the auto-critical part of the ability.
To me this improves the ability in several ways:
1. Less single target damage- With the ability able to target multiple creatures with sneak attack you could take down two mob enemies instead if you wanted....or go big on the big bad your choice.
2. Less clunk- Sneaking? Roll stealth for initiative. Acting like someone else? Deception. Doesn't matter what your buddy is doing as it doesnt play a part at all. DM would still be good to shut it down if applicable.
3. Firm benefit- you get your ability most of the time without having to pick up a feat to boost your initiative and you get to have fun playing into different strategies to get close.
I even broke down the odds in a spreadsheet for you that uses the average scores of every single creature in the game at every CR level.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1EQTIdJ2QFpqtgT-OuVY5tFmOmqGO2IvPEHJQDT64R0k/edit
Level 5
66.6% chance of winning Init, 56.9% cumulative chance hitting at least once, without Alert.
80.5% chance of winning Init, 64% cumulative chance of hitting at least once, with Alert.
It gets better every level too, btw.
The only other issue is Stealth, which you seem to have meandered from: a) hide doesn’t work, to b) the whole group needs to roll and the Paladin wearing plate mail will ruin everything, to c) No assassin would take Alert, that’s silly, to d) PF2E let’s you roll Deception to surprise and that’s impossible in DnD because the rules are so rigid that a DM would never let you use a disguise to get close and surprise your opponents.
My DMs absolutely would allow surprise if I approached on my own and distracted the guards with a disguise. Maybe your issue is your DM?
It's not just mine as the intent is that the party either rolls as one or the rogue is by themselves...
Neither of which is good for the rogue.
56.9% chance of getting your subclass? That's ******* terrible my dude.....
Like even in the best scenario (completely ignoring your party which is not really realistic anyway) without a feat its barely better than a coin flip that you actually get your subclass? That is worse than I thought....
The whole "the subclass sucks because your GM Might not let it work" argument feels weird to me because you can apply it to almost anyone. Wizards are universally considered amazing, but any GM can throw in some anti-magic bullshit to ruin their day. Gloomstalkers are considered by many to be one of, if not the best ranger subclass in 5e... but a melee gloomstalker loses most of their subclass if an enemy starts 50 feet away from them. Etc. etc. It's pretty universal.
While the heart of that concern may be true its especially true or at least much easier to conceive with Assassin. The abilities rely on specific circumstances that as you can see (56% ooof) may not happen enough to make it worthwhile.
I would absolutely agree with you on Illusion based wizards for the same reason....but evocation based wizards would not have the same limitations.
Overall you could get a glimmer of how the subclasses and classes will work with discussions with your DM but ultimately its not going to be known until you actually play and get with the group.
The fact you refuse to actually click the link and try it out is telling. Otherwise, you’d actually see I downplayed the percentage because that’s literally the lowest it ever gets with the worst optimization. And assumes you never take Alert too, or get initiative bonuses, or weapons bonuses, or items that improve stealth, etc.
64% for level 5, but higher (closer to 70%) against anything less than CR5. 8d6+3 (ave 31)
76% at level 9, but higher (closer to 82%) against anything less than CR9. 12d6+4 (ave 46)
80% at level 10, but higher (closer to 85%) against anything less than CR8. 13d6+4 (ave 49.5)
84% at level 13, but higher (closer to 86%) against anything less than CR10. 17d6+4 (ave 62.5).
82% at level 17, but higher (closer to 86%) against anything less than CR15. 19d6 (ave 70.5), 65% chance of 141 ave damage.
81% at level 20, but higher (closer to 84%) against anything less than CR18. 21d6 (ave 77.5), 65% chance of 145 ave damage.
Add a Weapon of Warning at any time and all of those numbers turn to 80-95% chances. I’ll also add, I didn’t even take Reliable Talent into effect, which will add about 11% to every score above as well, if you have it.
Name me ONE subclass ability of any rogue class that can do that much consistent damage. I’m listening.
But that’s kinda your schtick isn’t it? Make a claim, and pretend it’s bad even though you have no counterexample.
Its also not the entire subclass feature - it’s only the aspect of getting surprise, otherwise you still get the critical hits (which is still much more likely).
TBH your document is not good.... There's no work just a number in a Google sheet. I'm not sure what to do with it other than use the numbers you provided and I did.
you said 56% so I'm just quoting you my dude....
The extra damage is not worth only getting your subclass 56% of the time.
46 damage once per encounter is not really that good at level 9+.... especially considering what you are giving up with the other subclasses to get it.
Plus you still ignore the rest of the party so this 80% or whatever business is just white room math with no real application in any normal party.