Champion is actually pretty bad...its supposed to be a damage dealing subclass and simple. It is simple but it falls behind in damage tremendously. I won't expand further as this a rouge thread but Champion is not good at what it is supposed to be good at.
Rogue tends to have less issues across the board due to the strong core but you are right you can play a subclass a bit off from its design intent.
Swashbuckler encourages you to isolate an enemy away from your friends and lock them down there. If you play them next to everyone all the time you will not see the benefit as much but you will still be effective as you will still proc your sneak attack...but be missing the pieces that make the subclass what it is.
You will still enjoy the CHA to initiative though!
Champion isn't a pure damage dealer. It's actually incredibly versatile. Improved Critical and Superior Critical do aid in dealing damage, and they lend themselves better to more Strength and a [Tooltip Not Found] weapon, and they're especially potent with Great Weapon Fighter, but you don't have to go that route. Remarkable Athlete adds half your proficiency bonus (rounded up) to up to four skills and your Initiative modifier. A second Fighting Style lets them double-down on a single mode of play or be more of a switch-hitter, and with the advent of Tasha's is basically a free feat unto itself. And Survivor is just free just hit points to help keep you up in a fight. That's straight survivability, and it doesn't compete with any actions.
But enough of that. Y'all need to stop hating on stuff. Because you clearly don't understand as much as you think you do, and nobody needs that much negativity in their life.
Champion is less versatile then battlemaster and it does less damage.
So all in all it's only grace is that it's simple which it does in spades... But again that's off topic and likely should be in the fighter forum.
As for swashbuckler it is for pulling single enemies from groups and then dashing away to pull them again.
It's less about locking them in one area and more drawing them into another.
So I agree with that correction on my part.
It's not less Versatile. The only place that Battle Master has any kind of edge is in Combat. And only because it locks away a couple of combat specific actions. But Tasha's actually tried to make it a bit more like the Champion even though that's not necessarily dead obvious. It tried to add more skill and non-combat capability which Champion branches into naturally. It also created what is basically an entire feat to give what the Champion was getting for free combat wise. It may sacrifice a little controllable damage and some short term damage but it did so for a variety of other increases. both in combat and outside of combat. Some of which are not easily measurable like white rooming combat numbers is.
When you Take a Battle Master and a Champion and you make them both 7th level. Yes the Champion is going to do a little bit more controllable damage through a small handful of superiority dice, assuming that's what you put your maneuvers towards. But the Champion is going to naturally be a bit better at Stealth, Athletics, slight of hand, and athletics without direct investment in any of them. The Only one that the Battle Master can regain the upper hand in is Stealth and it will take up one of it's 5 Maneuvers to do so and it's not an always on ability. It will require using Superiority dice to do it while the Champion has it always on for less of an increase. And the more skillful you want to make the Battle Master either the more feats you have to dedicate to it or the more damage you have to lose in combat as you sacrifice both maneuvers and superiority dice into doing it. The Battle Master ends up in a potential position of increasing Chance of not actually having the rescources either to do damage or to use their social skills buffs when they actually need them in trade for potentially higher bonuses when they do get to use them which the Champion doesn't have to worry about, Particularly if they plan their skills smartly. Though the Battle Master ability does technically stack with Proficiency unlike the Champion's level 7 feature. And that's all ignoring the fact that the Champion still has a natural increase to the very specific athletics usage of jumping. But that is a minor extra ability for the most part.
It's actually one of the fine examples about how people don't actually fairly or objectively compare Subclasses and what they are capable of. Whether it's these two in Fighter or The way that some feel about the Swashbuckler, and the Inquisitive, and the Scout for example.
All 3 of them have reputations. Both from the playstyles that people use which rates them either highly or poorly. And because people subjectively weigh the usefulness of some of their abilities. Like People that try to claim that the Scout is the Better Ranger because it gets expertise in a single skill that overlaps a bit of what the Ranger does thanks to getting to put expertise into a couple skills that don't encompass all that Rangers do. All because they see an increase in a couple of skills that fits the style of what they want to use. Swashbucklers get rated highly or lowly based upon how much people want to kind of stand in the face of others. Even though it's capable of something better. And the Inquisitive suffers from the same issue that certain others like the thief and the Mastermind in that they aren't combat focused so they are seen as just not as good or even weak/bad subclasses. They aren't looked at Objectively or really tested out in a variety of situations to see where they shine by most people even though each one has their own niche and Objectively they are all really good and built on a strong core class chassis that they make use of and enhance in various ways.
You are sort of wrong but also kinda right. Let me explain myself; It is true that a swashbucker (or the concept) brings to mind a dex based fighter with an acrobatic/ highly mobile combat syle. But how do you get there in 5e? You can either assign it as a fighter subclass or rogue subclass, and the game designers went with Rogue. I think this makes sense. The Rogue class has the innherent mobility and precision damage powers that lend themselves to the concept of a swashbucker, and it has a wide skill selection for your pirate/vigilante/noble swordsman. Still, rogues are not fighters, and some action economy and defensive prowess have to be sacrificed. I honestly think this is a good compromise. That doesn't mean it is the best for for you or your group. A Dex based battle master (per Scrubbo) would be better for your Musketeer build as it would allow you to remain in the front line longer and ultimately (because rolling more attacks with less damage is actually better long term than less attacks with more damage) give you a higher dps. D'Artagnan would be a prime example. Swashbuckler would be best if you want a rakish fighter who is always on the move and may stoop to dirty tricks to win. Yurie points out the many combat adjecent powers the subclass offers, and I would say Jack Sparrow is the poster child for this character concept. Either build will get you a playable fighter/rouge, you just have to decide which foot you would rather put forward.
You are sort of wrong but also kinda right. Let me explain myself; It is true that a swashbucker (or the concept) brings to mind a dex based fighter with an acrobatic/ highly mobile combat syle. But how do you get there in 5e? You can either assign it as a fighter subclass or rogue subclass, and the game designers went with Rogue. I think this makes sense. The Rogue class has the innherent mobility and precision damage powers that lend themselves to the concept of a swashbucker, and it has a wide skill selection for your pirate/vigilante/noble swordsman. Still, rogues are not fighters, and some action economy and defensive prowess have to be sacrificed. I honestly think this is a good compromise. That doesn't mean it is the best for for you or your group. A Dex based battle master (per Scrubbo) would be better for your Musketeer build as it would allow you to remain in the front line longer and ultimately (because rolling more attacks with less damage is actually better long term than less attacks with more damage) give you a higher dps. D'Artagnan would be a prime example. Swashbuckler would be best if you want a rakish fighter who is always on the move and may stoop to dirty tricks to win. Yurie points out the many combat adjecent powers the subclass offers, and I would say Jack Sparrow is the poster child for this character concept. Either build will get you a playable fighter/rouge, you just have to decide which foot you would rather put forward.
If you're going to reply to a three month old dead thread you probably want to quote the person you are replying to, otherwise it's just going to be annoying and confusing.
Right. I was replying to the OP. The substance of the original post was "swashbuckler is disappointing, am I wrong?" Anyway forgetting to quote the op doesn't seem annoying as pedantically trolling someone on a "three month old dead thread" (that was a quote from you, I know how easily you get confused).
Is there any particular reason why you are so mean-spirited or can you just not take criticism very well?
I can't comment on Fighter vs Rogue builds but I can say playing a Swashbuckler Rogue at low levels, I am consistently doing the highest damage of anyone in our party. Now, we're without a pure fighter, or a pure caster. Paladin, 2 Clerics, Ranger, and Myself. In terms of AC: I'm 17 at level 4, not too shabby for a rogue. He started off primarily using a longbow, and that may stay as part of his game but he's definitely working as a dart in and then back away type fighter. Musketeers? Zorro? I don't remember those characters standing toe to toe for very long. They were always about positioning and flourish and distraction. Now, I can definitely see the advantages of a dex based fighter with heavier armor, but I'm tempted to take Moderately armored at my next Feat choice and carry a buckler around. 19 AC plus sneak attack in a low level campaign sounds pretty good.
I can't comment on Fighter vs Rogue builds but I can say playing a Swashbuckler Rogue at low levels, I am consistently doing the highest damage of anyone in our party. Now, we're without a pure fighter, or a pure caster. Paladin, 2 Clerics, Ranger, and Myself. In terms of AC: I'm 17 at level 4, not too shabby for a rogue. He started off primarily using a longbow, and that may stay as part of his game but he's definitely working as a dart in and then back away type fighter. Musketeers? Zorro? I don't remember those characters standing toe to toe for very long. They were always about positioning and flourish and distraction. Now, I can definitely see the advantages of a dex based fighter with heavier armor, but I'm tempted to take Moderately armored at my next Feat choice and carry a buckler around. 19 AC plus sneak attack in a low level campaign sounds pretty good.
Elf Swashbucklers (since you're using a longbow) are cool and getting a moderately armoured for a buckler would make a lot of sense for the, you know, "buckling" part of the swashbuckler. Seems like a good move. B)
Swashbuckler is fine IMO. My only issues with rogue tend to come from the later levels, the subclasses are, generally, fine and there's some good early level stuff. But in the later levels the class kind of starts to falter for me.
Yeah, but a lot of the primary classes falter toward the end from what I can see. I tend only to look at them 1-12 or 1-13 because most of the pre-made modules only go that far. I'd love to play a high level campaign, but we're in Rime of the Frostmaiden, so we'll be capped out at 12.
I've just made a level 1 rogue and I intend it to be a swashbuckler so I will let everyone know how I get on. I have high hopes for the sublcass though thanks to the swashbuckler's ability to disengage without taking it as an action or bonus action, as well as being able to fight 1on1 and get advantage and therefore sneak attack without having to rely on allies or hiding etc.
I personally went for an Eladrin simply because I love elves but also because I believe it is a great start. +2 DEX +1 CHA (great for a swashbuckler), darkvision, advantage against being charmed and immunity to sleep, and Fey Step are all awesome traits for a rogue. I intend to run with a rapier for 1 big attack + sneak attack, and use my bonus action for things like cunning dash and disengage etc. Of course, at lvl 1, I'll probably stick to the light crossbow to stay alive before my main class features come online.
At lvl 4 I want to get Magic Initiate (Sorcerer) so I can use CHA as my spell casting ability. I plan to get Booming Blade and Greenflame Blade for the extra damage and battlefield control, although I'm not sure what 1st lvl spell I should take. I know lots of people reocmmend Find Familiar but being a swashuckler (and having that bonus action to hide) means that I won't be struggling to get sneak attack or advantage. Any recommendations on what I could take?
@Jamie90 I've been puzzling over my swashbuckler build and, after thinking about and rejecting a 3 level dip into fighter for battlemaster, I'm looking at doing just a 1 level dip into sorcerer. With draconic resistance you automatically have +3 AC unarmored, you get to keep your ASI for DEX instead of spending it on a feat, and you get 4 cantrips and 2 x 1st level spells instead of 2 and 1 from Magic Initiate. For spells, Message is great for scouting or messing with the heads of targets, Prestidigitation or Minor Illusion for creating distractions and social interactions, Ray of Frost for a long distance spell that can slow down your target, Feather Fall to use for parkour style movement, jumping off buildings/ledges and using your reaction at the last moment to trigger the spell and land unharmed. Low level spells might not be powerful but, used correctly, they provide more options, and more fun!
Yeah, but a lot of the primary classes falter toward the end from what I can see. I tend only to look at them 1-12 or 1-13 because most of the pre-made modules only go that far. I'd love to play a high level campaign, but we're in Rime of the Frostmaiden, so we'll be capped out at 12.
You know, if the DM just keeps making up more story, the campaign can continue. Just because RotFM is over, that doesn’t mean you have to stop.
Yeah, but a lot of the primary classes falter toward the end from what I can see. I tend only to look at them 1-12 or 1-13 because most of the pre-made modules only go that far. I'd love to play a high level campaign, but we're in Rime of the Frostmaiden, so we'll be capped out at 12.
You know, if the DM just keeps making up more story, the campaign can continue. Just because RotFM is over, that doesn’t mean you have to stop.
That's very true, but I think it's more likely we'll start a new campaign with new characters. Still not even at the halfway point of this campaign though, so it's hard to judge where we'll go in several months time.
Have a swashbuckler that I am taking to 4/6 rogue fighter. He’s at 3 swashbuckler now (levels to 4 next session I hope) and a bit squishy but tons of fun and holds his own in damage
@Jamie90 I've been puzzling over my swashbuckler build and, after thinking about and rejecting a 3 level dip into fighter for battlemaster, I'm looking at doing just a 1 level dip into sorcerer. With draconic resistance you automatically have +3 AC unarmored, you get to keep your ASI for DEX instead of spending it on a feat, and you get 4 cantrips and 2 x 1st level spells instead of 2 and 1 from Magic Initiate. For spells, Message is great for scouting or messing with the heads of targets, Prestidigitation or Minor Illusion for creating distractions and social interactions, Ray of Frost for a long distance spell that can slow down your target, Feather Fall to use for parkour style movement, jumping off buildings/ledges and using your reaction at the last moment to trigger the spell and land unharmed. Low level spells might not be powerful but, used correctly, they provide more options, and more fun!
That's a good idea and one I hadn't considered before. I think dipping into Sorcerer at lvl 4 (Rogue 3 / Sorcerer 1) would be a good alternative to using the ASI / Feat like you said. I'd then go back to Rogue at lvl 5 to get the boos to DEX. I'd probably go with the following for Sorcerer 1 though:
Cantrips
Greenflame Blade - extra dmg and can target a 2nd opponent.
Booming Blade - extra dmg and crowd control.
Message - great for stealthy scouting
Mage Hand - always useful.
Spells
Shield
Absdorb elements
Both spells are handy for survivability and will scale well.
My current party has a wizard and a cleric so I'm not too worried about the utility spells.
Yeah, but a lot of the primary classes falter toward the end from what I can see. I tend only to look at them 1-12 or 1-13 because most of the pre-made modules only go that far. I'd love to play a high level campaign, but we're in Rime of the Frostmaiden, so we'll be capped out at 12.
You know, if the DM just keeps making up more story, the campaign can continue. Just because RotFM is over, that doesn’t mean you have to stop.
That's very true, but I think it's more likely we'll start a new campaign with new characters. Still not even at the halfway point of this campaign though, so it's hard to judge where we'll go in several months time.
If you really want to play a high level campaign, now’s the time to talk to your table about it so the DM has time to plan ahead. If they don’t have an idea in advance it’ll be impossible for them to drop in the foreshadowing and hooks to make things flow from one into the other.
Yeah, but a lot of the primary classes falter toward the end from what I can see. I tend only to look at them 1-12 or 1-13 because most of the pre-made modules only go that far. I'd love to play a high level campaign, but we're in Rime of the Frostmaiden, so we'll be capped out at 12.
You know, if the DM just keeps making up more story, the campaign can continue. Just because RotFM is over, that doesn’t mean you have to stop.
That's very true, but I think it's more likely we'll start a new campaign with new characters. Still not even at the halfway point of this campaign though, so it's hard to judge where we'll go in several months time.
If you really want to play a high level campaign, now’s the time to talk to your table about it so the DM has time to plan ahead. If they don’t have an idea in advance it’ll be impossible for them to drop in the foreshadowing and hooks to make things flow from one into the other.
I mentioned it to him today, but I don't think he's ever run a high level campaign. Will just have to see how things go.
I found with my tabaxi swashbuckler (reached lvl 14) that getting hold of the cloak of displacement was a god send. All attacks at disadvantage against me. With your low AC this help loads though I did also take medium armour feat for ability to use a buckler. Ended up with an AC of 20 at the end at lvl 14 with all attacks at disadvantage made that AC more survivable.
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It's not less Versatile. The only place that Battle Master has any kind of edge is in Combat. And only because it locks away a couple of combat specific actions. But Tasha's actually tried to make it a bit more like the Champion even though that's not necessarily dead obvious. It tried to add more skill and non-combat capability which Champion branches into naturally. It also created what is basically an entire feat to give what the Champion was getting for free combat wise. It may sacrifice a little controllable damage and some short term damage but it did so for a variety of other increases. both in combat and outside of combat. Some of which are not easily measurable like white rooming combat numbers is.
When you Take a Battle Master and a Champion and you make them both 7th level. Yes the Champion is going to do a little bit more controllable damage through a small handful of superiority dice, assuming that's what you put your maneuvers towards. But the Champion is going to naturally be a bit better at Stealth, Athletics, slight of hand, and athletics without direct investment in any of them. The Only one that the Battle Master can regain the upper hand in is Stealth and it will take up one of it's 5 Maneuvers to do so and it's not an always on ability. It will require using Superiority dice to do it while the Champion has it always on for less of an increase. And the more skillful you want to make the Battle Master either the more feats you have to dedicate to it or the more damage you have to lose in combat as you sacrifice both maneuvers and superiority dice into doing it. The Battle Master ends up in a potential position of increasing Chance of not actually having the rescources either to do damage or to use their social skills buffs when they actually need them in trade for potentially higher bonuses when they do get to use them which the Champion doesn't have to worry about, Particularly if they plan their skills smartly. Though the Battle Master ability does technically stack with Proficiency unlike the Champion's level 7 feature. And that's all ignoring the fact that the Champion still has a natural increase to the very specific athletics usage of jumping. But that is a minor extra ability for the most part.
It's actually one of the fine examples about how people don't actually fairly or objectively compare Subclasses and what they are capable of. Whether it's these two in Fighter or The way that some feel about the Swashbuckler, and the Inquisitive, and the Scout for example.
All 3 of them have reputations. Both from the playstyles that people use which rates them either highly or poorly. And because people subjectively weigh the usefulness of some of their abilities. Like People that try to claim that the Scout is the Better Ranger because it gets expertise in a single skill that overlaps a bit of what the Ranger does thanks to getting to put expertise into a couple skills that don't encompass all that Rangers do. All because they see an increase in a couple of skills that fits the style of what they want to use. Swashbucklers get rated highly or lowly based upon how much people want to kind of stand in the face of others. Even though it's capable of something better. And the Inquisitive suffers from the same issue that certain others like the thief and the Mastermind in that they aren't combat focused so they are seen as just not as good or even weak/bad subclasses. They aren't looked at Objectively or really tested out in a variety of situations to see where they shine by most people even though each one has their own niche and Objectively they are all really good and built on a strong core class chassis that they make use of and enhance in various ways.
You are sort of wrong but also kinda right. Let me explain myself; It is true that a swashbucker (or the concept) brings to mind a dex based fighter with an acrobatic/ highly mobile combat syle. But how do you get there in 5e? You can either assign it as a fighter subclass or rogue subclass, and the game designers went with Rogue. I think this makes sense. The Rogue class has the innherent mobility and precision damage powers that lend themselves to the concept of a swashbucker, and it has a wide skill selection for your pirate/vigilante/noble swordsman. Still, rogues are not fighters, and some action economy and defensive prowess have to be sacrificed. I honestly think this is a good compromise. That doesn't mean it is the best for for you or your group. A Dex based battle master (per Scrubbo) would be better for your Musketeer build as it would allow you to remain in the front line longer and ultimately (because rolling more attacks with less damage is actually better long term than less attacks with more damage) give you a higher dps. D'Artagnan would be a prime example. Swashbuckler would be best if you want a rakish fighter who is always on the move and may stoop to dirty tricks to win. Yurie points out the many combat adjecent powers the subclass offers, and I would say Jack Sparrow is the poster child for this character concept. Either build will get you a playable fighter/rouge, you just have to decide which foot you would rather put forward.
If you're going to reply to a three month old dead thread you probably want to quote the person you are replying to, otherwise it's just going to be annoying and confusing.
That’s why, in either 2e or 3e, there was a Fighter Swashbuckler, and a Rogue Swashbuckler.
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Is there any particular reason why you are so mean-spirited or can you just not take criticism very well?
I can't comment on Fighter vs Rogue builds but I can say playing a Swashbuckler Rogue at low levels, I am consistently doing the highest damage of anyone in our party. Now, we're without a pure fighter, or a pure caster. Paladin, 2 Clerics, Ranger, and Myself. In terms of AC: I'm 17 at level 4, not too shabby for a rogue. He started off primarily using a longbow, and that may stay as part of his game but he's definitely working as a dart in and then back away type fighter. Musketeers? Zorro? I don't remember those characters standing toe to toe for very long. They were always about positioning and flourish and distraction. Now, I can definitely see the advantages of a dex based fighter with heavier armor, but I'm tempted to take Moderately armored at my next Feat choice and carry a buckler around. 19 AC plus sneak attack in a low level campaign sounds pretty good.
Elf Swashbucklers (since you're using a longbow) are cool and getting a moderately armoured for a buckler would make a lot of sense for the, you know, "buckling" part of the swashbuckler. Seems like a good move. B)
Good catch, yeah he's a Wood Elf. https://www.dndbeyond.com/profile/mbl2100/characters/47901538 if you're interested in the current build as it stands.
Swashbuckler is fine IMO. My only issues with rogue tend to come from the later levels, the subclasses are, generally, fine and there's some good early level stuff. But in the later levels the class kind of starts to falter for me.
Yeah, but a lot of the primary classes falter toward the end from what I can see. I tend only to look at them 1-12 or 1-13 because most of the pre-made modules only go that far. I'd love to play a high level campaign, but we're in Rime of the Frostmaiden, so we'll be capped out at 12.
I've just made a level 1 rogue and I intend it to be a swashbuckler so I will let everyone know how I get on. I have high hopes for the sublcass though thanks to the swashbuckler's ability to disengage without taking it as an action or bonus action, as well as being able to fight 1on1 and get advantage and therefore sneak attack without having to rely on allies or hiding etc.
I personally went for an Eladrin simply because I love elves but also because I believe it is a great start. +2 DEX +1 CHA (great for a swashbuckler), darkvision, advantage against being charmed and immunity to sleep, and Fey Step are all awesome traits for a rogue. I intend to run with a rapier for 1 big attack + sneak attack, and use my bonus action for things like cunning dash and disengage etc. Of course, at lvl 1, I'll probably stick to the light crossbow to stay alive before my main class features come online.
At lvl 4 I want to get Magic Initiate (Sorcerer) so I can use CHA as my spell casting ability. I plan to get Booming Blade and Greenflame Blade for the extra damage and battlefield control, although I'm not sure what 1st lvl spell I should take. I know lots of people reocmmend Find Familiar but being a swashuckler (and having that bonus action to hide) means that I won't be struggling to get sneak attack or advantage. Any recommendations on what I could take?
@Jamie90 I've been puzzling over my swashbuckler build and, after thinking about and rejecting a 3 level dip into fighter for battlemaster, I'm looking at doing just a 1 level dip into sorcerer. With draconic resistance you automatically have +3 AC unarmored, you get to keep your ASI for DEX instead of spending it on a feat, and you get 4 cantrips and 2 x 1st level spells instead of 2 and 1 from Magic Initiate. For spells, Message is great for scouting or messing with the heads of targets, Prestidigitation or Minor Illusion for creating distractions and social interactions, Ray of Frost for a long distance spell that can slow down your target, Feather Fall to use for parkour style movement, jumping off buildings/ledges and using your reaction at the last moment to trigger the spell and land unharmed. Low level spells might not be powerful but, used correctly, they provide more options, and more fun!
You know, if the DM just keeps making up more story, the campaign can continue. Just because RotFM is over, that doesn’t mean you have to stop.
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That's very true, but I think it's more likely we'll start a new campaign with new characters. Still not even at the halfway point of this campaign though, so it's hard to judge where we'll go in several months time.
Have a swashbuckler that I am taking to 4/6 rogue fighter. He’s at 3 swashbuckler now (levels to 4 next session I hope) and a bit squishy but tons of fun and holds his own in damage
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That's a good idea and one I hadn't considered before. I think dipping into Sorcerer at lvl 4 (Rogue 3 / Sorcerer 1) would be a good alternative to using the ASI / Feat like you said. I'd then go back to Rogue at lvl 5 to get the boos to DEX. I'd probably go with the following for Sorcerer 1 though:
Cantrips
Spells
Both spells are handy for survivability and will scale well.
My current party has a wizard and a cleric so I'm not too worried about the utility spells.
If you really want to play a high level campaign, now’s the time to talk to your table about it so the DM has time to plan ahead. If they don’t have an idea in advance it’ll be impossible for them to drop in the foreshadowing and hooks to make things flow from one into the other.
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I mentioned it to him today, but I don't think he's ever run a high level campaign. Will just have to see how things go.
If you play with flanking this build becomes even better. A level or three of sorcerer is certainly intersing.
I found with my tabaxi swashbuckler (reached lvl 14) that getting hold of the cloak of displacement was a god send. All attacks at disadvantage against me. With your low AC this help loads though I did also take medium armour feat for ability to use a buckler. Ended up with an AC of 20 at the end at lvl 14 with all attacks at disadvantage made that AC more survivable.