I am not going to weigh in on what's better overall, but just say that Sorcs may be very well adapted for Adventure League play. From what I can tell, most sessions have two or three combat encounters, and seem fairly rail-roady in terms of the plot. With that in mind, conserving metamagic resources for a long adventuring day isn't nearly as important, nor is having an incredibly diverse tool kit that can be reset with a long rest.
Answer: Well in that case a wizard could in AL just adapt their spell kit to be more viable configuration in adventures league.
I just started an AL sorc, so obviously my perspective is limited. I did take a wizard level at level 2, and I believe that the first level of wiz packs a ton of utility for the a sorc. Familiar and a number of other great rituals, and "oh shit" spells that you always want but don't require a high casting stat. Shield, absorb elements, feather fall, fog cloud, stuff like that. Those won't take up your 15 known spells. Same story with cantrips. Wizard can get you things like Minor Illusion and Mage Hand and allow a good range of combat options on the sorc side. The plan is to get to the Evoker subclass around character level 7.
Answer: So... what your saying is your sorcerer got better since it became... more wizard...
Finally, a purpose built sorc would destroy the wizard in a social campaign. Subtle spell, obviously, but sorcs will have much better persuasion, deception, and other CHA based skills.
Answer: Yes but no... ok hear me out... RITUAL SPELLS also wizards can if they want drop some points into Cha. But yes most sorcerers in a much more role play center campaign (but if you know it’s a social campaign the wizard as you’ve said can merely adjust their generality to a more focused build). As with subtle spell a wizard by taking Metamagic Adept would actually be able to take a bigger advantage of such a Metamagic option.
Finally, a purpose built sorc would destroy the wizard in a social campaign. Subtle spell, obviously, but sorcs will have much better persuasion, deception, and other CHA based skills.
Answer: Yes but no... ok hear me out... RITUAL SPELLS also wizards can if they want drop some points into Cha. But yes most sorcerers in a much more role play center campaign (but if you know it’s a social campaign the wizard as you’ve said can merely adjust their generality to a more focused build). As with subtle spell a wizard by taking Metamagic Adept would actually be able to take a bigger advantage of such a Metamagic option.
So your answer is saying the wizard got better because it became more sorcerer?
Also Metamagic adept is pretty pointless on anything but a sorc, especially when costing a feat. 2 sorc points a day? No thanks (No font of magic gained with this feat).
Opinion: Sorc has the edge in combat encounters, wizard has the edge in utility (Non-combat).
(PS. lvl 20 comparisons aren't much use as only very few players ever play those levels)
Wizards specialize in having the right spell for the right occasion. They're not the best at skill rolls, they're not that great at hitting things with a stick without buffing spells. Thus, Arcane Recovery and rituals.
Sorcerers, as of Tasha's, specialize in using Sorcery Points to get things done. Got a skill check? Use spell points. What spell to use? You have quite the selection now using Tasha-level subclasses, and good metamagic options to use them on. Need more spell points? There's a magic item and a feat for that now, which is (I suspect), meant to be a stealth-fix for the Sorcerer sorcery point issue.
Sorcerers actively have some very good options now (arguably taxed a bit, but what can you do?). Which changes the entire dynamic between sorcerer and wizard, when all is said and done.
I am not going to weigh in on what's better overall, but just say that Sorcs may be very well adapted for Adventure League play. From what I can tell, most sessions have two or three combat encounters, and seem fairly rail-roady in terms of the plot. With that in mind, conserving metamagic resources for a long adventuring day isn't nearly as important, nor is having an incredibly diverse tool kit that can be reset with a long rest.
Answer: Well in that case a wizard could in AL just adapt their spell kit to be more viable configuration in adventures league.
I just started an AL sorc, so obviously my perspective is limited. I did take a wizard level at level 2, and I believe that the first level of wiz packs a ton of utility for the a sorc. Familiar and a number of other great rituals, and "oh shit" spells that you always want but don't require a high casting stat. Shield, absorb elements, feather fall, fog cloud, stuff like that. Those won't take up your 15 known spells. Same story with cantrips. Wizard can get you things like Minor Illusion and Mage Hand and allow a good range of combat options on the sorc side. The plan is to get to the Evoker subclass around character level 7.
Answer: So... what your saying is your sorcerer got better since it became... more wizard...
I don't really give a damn about what is more powerful. If wizards are more powerful, fine by me. I just wanted to try a sorc. Powerful isn't the same as fun. Shrug.
So your answer is saying the wizard got better because it became more sorcerer?
Answer: Yes but no... I’m saying that a wizard would gain more ability than a sorcerer having subtle spell etc. As with “the wizard got better because it became more sorcerer” I gave the Metamagic Adept to the wizard since he said he took a level of wizard at level 2 (and became better).
Also Metamagic adept is pretty pointless on anything but a sorc, especially when costing a feat. 2 sorc points a day? No thanks (No font of magic gained with this feat).
Answer: Uhhh no... the wizard can get miles from subtle spell and quickened spell. As with font of magic tbh it’s not that great when compared to arcane recovery (as the levels of spells gained).
Opinion: Sorc has the edge in combat encounters, wizard has the edge in utility (Non-combat).
Answer: I wouldn’t say that as a sorcerer he would be able to out the wizard in combat especially when the wizard has more spells than the sorcerer. So the wizard could prepare the same amount of spells while still having more spells available than the sorcerer.
Wizards specialize in having the right spell for the right occasion. They're not the best at skill rolls, they're not that great at hitting things with a stick without buffing spells. Thus, Arcane Recovery and rituals.
Answer: They can be though as there are spells to help with that and when you say skill roles I think you mean anything but int skill checks. And when you say “they're not that great at hitting things with a stick” have you heard of Bladesinger. Also the spellcasting class prob isn’t that great at melee.
Sorcerers, as of Tasha's, specialize in using Sorcery Points to get things done. Got a skill check? Use spell points. What spell to use? You have quite the selection now using Tasha-level subclasses, and good metamagic options to use them on. Need more spell points? There's a magic item and a feat for that now, which is (I suspect), meant to be a stealth-fix for the Sorcerer sorcery point issue.
Answer: True... ish I just have a problem with the underlying thought of the wizard can’t do *this* but they can so... yeah.
Sorcerers actively have some very good options now (arguably taxed a bit, but what can you do?). Which changes the entire dynamic between sorcerer and wizard, when all is said and done.
Answer: Well like all of what you said the wizard could do also.
Answer: They can be though as there are spells to help with that and when you say skill roles I think you mean anything but int skill checks. And when you say “they're not that great at hitting things with a stick” have you heard of Bladesinger. Also the spellcasting class prob isn’t that great at melee.
Even INT checks. See, they have a base competency of Attribute + Skill. But there's the thing. EVERYONE has that. Most other classes have some kind of class feature that helps them with skill checks. Rages, action surge to two skills a turn, expertise, shapeshifting, SOMETHING. For a wizard, the answer is always "I cast the appropriate spell." Which is cool and all, but its part of their style.
And yes, I know of bladesinger. Played one too. But even bladesingers are reliant upon spells - too squishy and too weak without them, even with bladesong.
Answer: True... ish I just have a problem with the underlying thought of the wizard can’t do *this* but they can so... yeah.
Wizards do things in a different way. I'm not saying they can't achieve the same goal, but they go about it differently. Wizards can't spend sorcery points to get advantage on a skill check. Instead, they need to find the appropriate spell to cast to do something.
Answer: Well like all of what you said the wizard could do also.
They both can do lots of things in different ways. Which is good, because before, sorcerer couldn't. Now they can. Its a different dynamic.
Answer: They can be though as there are spells to help with that and when you say skill roles I think you mean anything but int skill checks. And when you say “they're not that great at hitting things with a stick” have you heard of Bladesinger. Also the spellcasting class prob isn’t that great at melee.
Even INT checks. See, they have a base competency of Attribute + Skill. But there's the thing. EVERYONE has that. Most other classes have some kind of class feature that helps them with skill checks. Rages, action surge to two skills a turn, expertise, shapeshifting, SOMETHING. For a wizard, the answer is always "I cast the appropriate spell." Which is cool and all, but its part of their style.
And yes, I know of bladesinger. Played one too. But even bladesingers are reliant upon spells - too squishy and too weak without them, even with bladesong.
Answer: True... ish I just have a problem with the underlying thought of the wizard can’t do *this* but they can so... yeah.
Wizards do things in a different way. I'm not saying they can't achieve the same goal, but they go about it differently. Wizards can't spend sorcery points to get advantage on a skill check. Instead, they need to find the appropriate spell to cast to do something.
Answer: Well like all of what you said the wizard could do also.
They both can do lots of things in different ways. Which is good, because before, sorcerer couldn't. Now they can. Its a different dynamic.
So what your saying the sorcerer got a buff and therefore can become akin to the wizard who could do the same thing but both have different ways of achieving that same thing. And what I’m saying is that thing they can both do the wizard can do (mostly) more effectively. Yeah?
“I don't really give a damn about what is more powerful. If wizards are more powerful, fine by me. I just wanted to try a sorc. Powerful isn't the same as fun. Shrug.”
Answer: But being powerful... is fun (haha). I know.
"More effectively" is debatable. If we were talking about pre-Tasha's, I'd agree. But I think the wealth of new abilities, magic items, feats and spell access has changed the way that they play to the point that "effective" is a question of player ability and table play style.
The sorcerer is no longer stuck in the wizard's shadow.
"More effectively" is debatable. If we were talking about pre-Tasha's, I'd agree. But I think the wealth of new abilities, magic items, feats and spell access has changed the way that they play to the point that "effective" is a question of player ability and table play style.
The sorcerer is no longer stuck in the wizard's shadow.
I love what Tasha's has done for the class - especially origin spells and the ability to change your metamagic when you get to ASI levels but I find some of it very DM dependent for other things. The Bloodwell vial for example is great but it depends on the DM to include that in any loot they dole out. Also a DM can rule that nothing from Tasha's can be used so there goes your subclasses, spells and alternate class features.
"More effectively" is debatable. If we were talking about pre-Tasha's, I'd agree. But I think the wealth of new abilities, magic items, feats and spell access has changed the way that they play to the point that "effective" is a question of player ability and table play style.
The sorcerer is no longer stuck in the wizard's shadow.
Answer: You say “new abilities, magic items, feats and spell access” (discounting no that you mentioned that if the sorcerer gets magic items he’ll be stronger thing) but the wizard also got some more “buffs” (though less, and less impressive).
Though I agree with your sentiment the wizard still outclasses the sorcerer in many ways (sure you can say social skills are better but the wizard can as you just "I cast the appropriate spell” type of thing.
“I don't really give a damn about what is more powerful. If wizards are more powerful, fine by me. I just wanted to try a sorc. Powerful isn't the same as fun. Shrug.”
Answer: But being powerful... is fun (haha). I know.
I don't really get where you keep reading "stronger" into things. At no point have I said sorcerer is stronger than the wizard.
I said the dynamic changed, but that's because the sorcerer has now developed a set of skills and abilities that operate differently from the wizard enough that they're more distinct as a class, and can carry their own.
I said they were closer in power, to the point that playstyle can make the difference, which implies parity.
I'm aware of the new wizard things, and I think the cantrips are neat, and I love the new books. But this is a sorcerer forum thread, so I talk about the sorcerer mostly.
Also Metamagic adept is pretty pointless on anything but a sorc, especially when costing a feat. 2 sorc points a day? No thanks (No font of magic gained with this feat).
Answer: Uhhh no... the wizard can get miles from subtle spell and quickened spell. As with font of magic tbh it’s not that great when compared to arcane recovery (as the levels of spells gained).
Dude, I'm beginning to think you nekro'd this thread for a wind up. You think a wizard can "get miles" by being able to subtle & quicken just 1 spell a day/long rest?. You would rather spend a feat on that rather than +2 INT or some other feat you have to give up, just so for one or two rounds you can act like a sorcerer? A wizard can get 'miles' acting like a sorcerer?
As for arcane recovery, 1/day (on a short rest only) a wiz can recover half its level in spell slots (say 5 @ level 10). If a sorc needs to do that (i rarely have) it can recover just as many spell slots and still have points left over for meta's, only a sorc can do this any time, no short rest required, even in the middle of a battle. Wiz can't do that.
As for core abilities (whatever sub-class)
Want to take the dodge action (disadvantage ANY attack roll against you for a turn) or disengage whilst still slinging a fireball? Wiz can't do that. Want to force disadvantage on a save or die roll, or a roll for half damage? Wiz can't do that. Want to maintain concentration on that save or die, or another spell? You have con prof, can dodge, sling another spell. Wiz can't do that. Want more movement? Then action dash and still cast any spell. Wiz can't do that Want to re-roll those 1's/2's and maybe 3's for that fireball? Wiz can't do that. Want to cast a spell without people knowing, or a spell whilst in silence or unable to speak? Wiz can't do that. Want to haste two of your friends? Wiz can't do that Want to re-roll that fail on your ability check? Sure, why not, with optional rules you can now have that. Wiz can't do that.
All core sorc abilities it can do by level 5, if it wants (whatever sub-class). All clutch stuff a sorc can pull off in in fight from low to mid level, the wiz can't do. Ran out of meta? Then yeah, then a sorc it just a wizard slinging one cantrip/spell as its action and hoping it works, whist having the same amount of spell slots to use.
Sorcs for random encounters/combat, wiz for utility and a few extra spell choices. Both have their value.
Advice for newbs: Meta is for lots of clutch moments. Plan what type of sorc you are (CC/blast/support/face etc) and pick your spells/meta accordingly, its the combo that matters and some meta's have lower/higher value depending on what you choose. Eg. Distant Spell isn't that recommended but on a Divine Soul it can be huge. Cast those touch spells like inflict wounds/revivify/lesser res @ 30ft? Yes please (cleric can't do that :) )
Dude, I'm beginning to think you nekro'd this thread for a wind up. You think a wizard can "get miles" by being able to subtle & quicken just 1 spell a day/long rest?. You would rather spend a feat on that rather than +2 INT or some other feat you have to give up, just so for one or two rounds you can act like a sorcerer? A wizard can get 'miles' acting like a sorcerer?
As for arcane recovery, 1/day (on a short rest only) a wiz can recover half its level in spell slots (say 5 @ level 10). If a sorc needs to do that (i rarely have) it can recover just as many spell slots and still have points left over for meta's, only a sorc can do this any time, no short rest required, even in the middle of a battle. Wiz can't do that.
As for core abilities (whatever sub-class)
Want to take the dodge action (disadvantage ANY attack roll against you for a turn) or disengage whilst still slinging a fireball? Wiz can't do that. Want to force disadvantage on a save or die roll, or a roll for half damage? Wiz can't do that. Want to maintain concentration on that save or die, or another spell? You have con prof, can dodge, sling another spell. Wiz can't do that. Want more movement? Then action dash and still cast any spell. Wiz can't do that Want to re-roll those 1's/2's and maybe 3's for that fireball? Wiz can't do that. Want to cast a spell without people knowing, or a spell whilst in silence or unable to speak? Wiz can't do that. Want to haste two of your friends? Wiz can't do that Want to re-roll that fail on your ability check? Sure, why not, with optional rules you can now have that. Wiz can't do that.
All core sorc abilities it can do by level 5, if it wants (whatever sub-class). All clutch stuff a sorc can pull off in in fight from low to mid level, the wiz can't do. Ran out of meta? Then yeah, then a sorc it just a wizard slinging one cantrip/spell as its action and hoping it works, whist having the same amount of spell slots to use.
Sorcs for random encounters/combat, wiz for utility and a few extra spell choices. Both have their value.
Advice for newbs: Meta is for lots of clutch moments. Plan what type of sorc you are (CC/blast/support/face etc) and pick your spells/meta accordingly, its the combo that matters and some meta's have lower/higher value depending on what you choose. Eg. Distant Spell isn't that recommended but on a Divine Soul it can be huge. Cast those touch spells like inflict wounds/revivify/lesser res @ 30ft? Yes please (cleric can't do that :) )
(As for tashas it gave like 4 new things to the sorcerer while giving the wizard 1 new thing so you know)
ANSWER: Yes he can get miles off of subtle spell (which he can use twice or choose to use quickened once) as he has a MUCH larger spell list than the limitedness of the sorcerer. As with the why not just get a +2 int you can do that or if one wants take Metamagic for that little extra bit of versatility.
As for Font of magic and arcane recovery their net value of gaining spell slots their practically the same. As for the timing of arcane recovery vs font of magic items ehh sure I guess. Just saying as for how a spells slots are valued the wizard spells are more valuable than a sorcerer as they have more power (as they have more spells to choose from and therefore have more value as they can be used more). Then again a wizard gets arcane recovery at 1st level and the sorcerer gets font of magic at 2nd level then gets Metamagic at 3rd.
Do you mean quickened spell?
As for forcing disadvantage wdym a divination can force a fail (portent) while Chronurgist can force disadvantage (chronal shift).
With maintaining concentration on a save or die spell but the wizard can do what you say though... ?
Still quickened spell?
Evoker...
So subtle spell.
Mmm more cherry picking...
You said “Ran out of meta? Then yeah, then a sorc it just a wizard slinging one cantrip/spell as its action and hoping it works, whist having the same amount of spell slots to use.” no... just no a sorcerer when ran out of sorcery points is a sad budget wizard with its sorcery points he is just a weird hobo wizard.
Yes both have their value but I feel the wizard is better...
As for forcing disadvantage wdym a divination can force a fail (portent) while Chronurgist can force disadvantage (chronal shift).
With maintaining concentration on a save or die spell but the wizard can do what you say though... ?
Still quickened spell?
Evoker...
So subtle spell.
Mmm more cherry picking...
You said “Ran out of meta? Then yeah, then a sorc it just a wizard slinging one cantrip/spell as its action and hoping it works, whist having the same amount of spell slots to use.” no... just no a sorcerer when ran out of sorcery points is a sad budget wizard with its sorcery points he is just a weird hobo wizard.
Yes both have their value but I feel the wizard is better...
LOL, you just exampled the abilities of 3 different sub-classes and STILL cannot do what any 5th lvl sorc can do in a fight, with just CORE abilities (No sub-class).
Quickened is pretty awesome so I'm not surprised you ducked it, so yeah, more quickened spell :) (Eg. That 5th lvl sorc can take the dodge action every round for 2/3 combat encounters and still sling a spell every single round. That's disadvantage any melee/ranged or spell attack roll against him, always. Not that he needs to do this, but he could)
Cherry picking? Why not, I like cherries and plenty to pick from, they taste sweeeeet.
Quote: "as they have more spells to choose from and therefore have more value as they can be used more" No they can't, they have the exact same amount of spell slots. But, to give another example: Wiz cast chromatic orb for three rounds, Sorc TWINS chromatic orb for three rounds. Wiz cast polymorph, sorc TWINS polymorph. Which has more power now?
Quote: "just no a sorcerer when ran out of sorcery points is a sad budget wizard with its sorcery points he is just a weird hobo wizard." Something up bro?
Sorcs have the edge in combat, wizards for utility. Both can be fun to role-play.
When I said a wizards spell slots have more value I was talking about that a wizards spell slots is better since that spell slot has more use (larger spell list) than the sorcerer and therefore is more useful as it can be used for more than a sorcerers spell slot. So yes a wizard spell slot when compared to a sorcerer spell slot has more value.
And as with the “STILL cannot do what any 5th lvl sorc can do in a fight” yes I know the wizard and sorcerers are different but the wizard can do things that a sorcerer can’t do and the sorcerer can do things that a wizard can’t do. I’m just saying that between the two (say two 5th level players) the wizard in like any campaign would be more useful, more powerful, and more capable inmost of any situation than the sorcerer.
Although I do recognize that yes most of the time a combat sorcerer will out a wizard in combat. But tbh in a fight between a 5th level wizard and a 5th level sorcerer I think that the wizard would come out on top.
Some questions have sparked in my mind about the differences between a sorcerer and a wizard. Mostly these:
- Which is the more advantageous in terms of combat skills and survival skills?
Define combat skills? Define survival skills? Does that include something like the Abjurer subclass, or the Divine Soul? Generally, the wizard has access to more spells (both in terms of spell slots and spells known), and thus is more flexible than the sorcerer, but the sorcerer can do some funky things with the few spells they do know. Wizards have better sustained abilities, while sorcerers have stronger nova powers.
The wizard had the same or fewer spell slots.
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Answer: Well in that case a wizard could in AL just adapt their spell kit to be more viable configuration in adventures league.
Answer: So... what your saying is your sorcerer got better since it became... more wizard...
Answer: Yes but no... ok hear me out... RITUAL SPELLS also wizards can if they want drop some points into Cha. But yes most sorcerers in a much more role play center campaign (but if you know it’s a social campaign the wizard as you’ve said can merely adjust their generality to a more focused build). As with subtle spell a wizard by taking Metamagic Adept would actually be able to take a bigger advantage of such a Metamagic option.
So your answer is saying the wizard got better because it became more sorcerer?
Also Metamagic adept is pretty pointless on anything but a sorc, especially when costing a feat. 2 sorc points a day? No thanks (No font of magic gained with this feat).
Opinion: Sorc has the edge in combat encounters, wizard has the edge in utility (Non-combat).
(PS. lvl 20 comparisons aren't much use as only very few players ever play those levels)
Holy thread necromancy, batman!!
Wizards specialize in having the right spell for the right occasion. They're not the best at skill rolls, they're not that great at hitting things with a stick without buffing spells. Thus, Arcane Recovery and rituals.
Sorcerers, as of Tasha's, specialize in using Sorcery Points to get things done. Got a skill check? Use spell points. What spell to use? You have quite the selection now using Tasha-level subclasses, and good metamagic options to use them on. Need more spell points? There's a magic item and a feat for that now, which is (I suspect), meant to be a stealth-fix for the Sorcerer sorcery point issue.
Sorcerers actively have some very good options now (arguably taxed a bit, but what can you do?). Which changes the entire dynamic between sorcerer and wizard, when all is said and done.
I don't really give a damn about what is more powerful. If wizards are more powerful, fine by me. I just wanted to try a sorc. Powerful isn't the same as fun. Shrug.
Answer: Yes but no... I’m saying that a wizard would gain more ability than a sorcerer having subtle spell etc. As with “the wizard got better because it became more sorcerer” I gave the Metamagic Adept to the wizard since he said he took a level of wizard at level 2 (and became better).
Answer: Uhhh no... the wizard can get miles from subtle spell and quickened spell. As with font of magic tbh it’s not that great when compared to arcane recovery (as the levels of spells gained).
Answer: I wouldn’t say that as a sorcerer he would be able to out the wizard in combat especially when the wizard has more spells than the sorcerer. So the wizard could prepare the same amount of spells while still having more spells available than the sorcerer.
Answer: *thumbs up* noice.
Answer: They can be though as there are spells to help with that and when you say skill roles I think you mean anything but int skill checks. And when you say “they're not that great at hitting things with a stick” have you heard of Bladesinger. Also the spellcasting class prob isn’t that great at melee.
Answer: True... ish I just have a problem with the underlying thought of the wizard can’t do *this* but they can so... yeah.
Answer: Well like all of what you said the wizard could do also.
Thanks!
Even INT checks. See, they have a base competency of Attribute + Skill. But there's the thing. EVERYONE has that. Most other classes have some kind of class feature that helps them with skill checks. Rages, action surge to two skills a turn, expertise, shapeshifting, SOMETHING. For a wizard, the answer is always "I cast the appropriate spell." Which is cool and all, but its part of their style.
And yes, I know of bladesinger. Played one too. But even bladesingers are reliant upon spells - too squishy and too weak without them, even with bladesong.
Wizards do things in a different way. I'm not saying they can't achieve the same goal, but they go about it differently. Wizards can't spend sorcery points to get advantage on a skill check. Instead, they need to find the appropriate spell to cast to do something.
They both can do lots of things in different ways. Which is good, because before, sorcerer couldn't. Now they can. Its a different dynamic.
So what your saying the sorcerer got a buff and therefore can become akin to the wizard who could do the same thing but both have different ways of achieving that same thing. And what I’m saying is that thing they can both do the wizard can do (mostly) more effectively. Yeah?
Point:
“I don't really give a damn about what is more powerful. If wizards are more powerful, fine by me. I just wanted to try a sorc. Powerful isn't the same as fun. Shrug.”
Answer: But being powerful... is fun (haha). I know.
"More effectively" is debatable. If we were talking about pre-Tasha's, I'd agree. But I think the wealth of new abilities, magic items, feats and spell access has changed the way that they play to the point that "effective" is a question of player ability and table play style.
The sorcerer is no longer stuck in the wizard's shadow.
I love what Tasha's has done for the class - especially origin spells and the ability to change your metamagic when you get to ASI levels but I find some of it very DM dependent for other things. The Bloodwell vial for example is great but it depends on the DM to include that in any loot they dole out. Also a DM can rule that nothing from Tasha's can be used so there goes your subclasses, spells and alternate class features.
Answer: You say “new abilities, magic items, feats and spell access” (discounting no that you mentioned that if the sorcerer gets magic items he’ll be stronger thing) but the wizard also got some more “buffs” (though less, and less impressive).
Though I agree with your sentiment the wizard still outclasses the sorcerer in many ways (sure you can say social skills are better but the wizard can as you just "I cast the appropriate spell” type of thing.
Sure it is. As are other things.
Dude, I'm beginning to think you nekro'd this thread for a wind up. You think a wizard can "get miles" by being able to subtle & quicken just 1 spell a day/long rest?. You would rather spend a feat on that rather than +2 INT or some other feat you have to give up, just so for one or two rounds you can act like a sorcerer? A wizard can get 'miles' acting like a sorcerer?
As for arcane recovery, 1/day (on a short rest only) a wiz can recover half its level in spell slots (say 5 @ level 10). If a sorc needs to do that (i rarely have) it can recover just as many spell slots and still have points left over for meta's, only a sorc can do this any time, no short rest required, even in the middle of a battle. Wiz can't do that.
As for core abilities (whatever sub-class)
Want to take the dodge action (disadvantage ANY attack roll against you for a turn) or disengage whilst still slinging a fireball? Wiz can't do that.
Want to force disadvantage on a save or die roll, or a roll for half damage? Wiz can't do that.
Want to maintain concentration on that save or die, or another spell? You have con prof, can dodge, sling another spell. Wiz can't do that.
Want more movement? Then action dash and still cast any spell. Wiz can't do that
Want to re-roll those 1's/2's and maybe 3's for that fireball? Wiz can't do that.
Want to cast a spell without people knowing, or a spell whilst in silence or unable to speak? Wiz can't do that.
Want to haste two of your friends? Wiz can't do that
Want to re-roll that fail on your ability check? Sure, why not, with optional rules you can now have that. Wiz can't do that.
All core sorc abilities it can do by level 5, if it wants (whatever sub-class). All clutch stuff a sorc can pull off in in fight from low to mid level, the wiz can't do. Ran out of meta? Then yeah, then a sorc it just a wizard slinging one cantrip/spell as its action and hoping it works, whist having the same amount of spell slots to use.
Sorcs for random encounters/combat, wiz for utility and a few extra spell choices. Both have their value.
Advice for newbs: Meta is for lots of clutch moments. Plan what type of sorc you are (CC/blast/support/face etc) and pick your spells/meta accordingly, its the combo that matters and some meta's have lower/higher value depending on what you choose. Eg. Distant Spell isn't that recommended but on a Divine Soul it can be huge. Cast those touch spells like inflict wounds/revivify/lesser res @ 30ft? Yes please (cleric can't do that :) )
(As for tashas it gave like 4 new things to the sorcerer while giving the wizard 1 new thing so you know)
ANSWER: Yes he can get miles off of subtle spell (which he can use twice or choose to use quickened once) as he has a MUCH larger spell list than the limitedness of the sorcerer. As with the why not just get a +2 int you can do that or if one wants take Metamagic for that little extra bit of versatility.
As for Font of magic and arcane recovery their net value of gaining spell slots their practically the same. As for the timing of arcane recovery vs font of magic items ehh sure I guess. Just saying as for how a spells slots are valued the wizard spells are more valuable than a sorcerer as they have more power (as they have more spells to choose from and therefore have more value as they can be used more). Then again a wizard gets arcane recovery at 1st level and the sorcerer gets font of magic at 2nd level then gets Metamagic at 3rd.
Do you mean quickened spell?
As for forcing disadvantage wdym a divination can force a fail (portent) while Chronurgist can force disadvantage (chronal shift).
With maintaining concentration on a save or die spell but the wizard can do what you say though... ?
Still quickened spell?
Evoker...
So subtle spell.
Mmm more cherry picking...
You said “Ran out of meta? Then yeah, then a sorc it just a wizard slinging one cantrip/spell as its action and hoping it works, whist having the same amount of spell slots to use.” no... just no a sorcerer when ran out of sorcery points is a sad budget wizard with its sorcery points he is just a weird hobo wizard.
Yes both have their value but I feel the wizard is better...
LOL, you just exampled the abilities of 3 different sub-classes and STILL cannot do what any 5th lvl sorc can do in a fight, with just CORE abilities (No sub-class).
Quickened is pretty awesome so I'm not surprised you ducked it, so yeah, more quickened spell :) (Eg. That 5th lvl sorc can take the dodge action every round for 2/3 combat encounters and still sling a spell every single round. That's disadvantage any melee/ranged or spell attack roll against him, always. Not that he needs to do this, but he could)
Cherry picking? Why not, I like cherries and plenty to pick from, they taste sweeeeet.
Quote: "as they have more spells to choose from and therefore have more value as they can be used more"
No they can't, they have the exact same amount of spell slots. But, to give another example: Wiz cast chromatic orb for three rounds, Sorc TWINS chromatic orb for three rounds. Wiz cast polymorph, sorc TWINS polymorph. Which has more power now?
Quote: "just no a sorcerer when ran out of sorcery points is a sad budget wizard with its sorcery points he is just a weird hobo wizard."
Something up bro?
Sorcs have the edge in combat, wizards for utility. Both can be fun to role-play.
When I said a wizards spell slots have more value I was talking about that a wizards spell slots is better since that spell slot has more use (larger spell list) than the sorcerer and therefore is more useful as it can be used for more than a sorcerers spell slot. So yes a wizard spell slot when compared to a sorcerer spell slot has more value.
And as with the “STILL cannot do what any 5th lvl sorc can do in a fight” yes I know the wizard and sorcerers are different but the wizard can do things that a sorcerer can’t do and the sorcerer can do things that a wizard can’t do. I’m just saying that between the two (say two 5th level players) the wizard in like any campaign would be more useful, more powerful, and more capable inmost of any situation than the sorcerer.
Although I do recognize that yes most of the time a combat sorcerer will out a wizard in combat. But tbh in a fight between a 5th level wizard and a 5th level sorcerer I think that the wizard would come out on top.
The wizard had the same or fewer spell slots.