Wizards really do make sorcerers pointless. If you want to play a fun sorcerer, pick warlock or wizard.
Sorcerer is mechanically ok technically if you pick the right spells, but it's easy to fall into trap options and end up useless. It's also mechanically boring af, as once you've used your tiny amount of metamagic, as was stated above by another user, it's basically an NPC class.
At this point I think the sorcerer lacks so much mechanical identity I don't think it should have been in 5e as a class, and metamagic should have remained a feat for all casters like with earlier editions. Sorcerers special thing was spontaneous casting, which all casters now get.
Thematically sorcerer is my favourite class, but I wouldn't dream of playing one anymore now I've played some other classes to compare and just found them so much more fun.
This is mainly due to what the designers did to the class when they ported it over to 5e. They revised the spellcasting system so that all spellcasting classes gained spontaneous casters and just gave prepared casters a vast increase in number of spells known in lieu of prepping spell slots. At the same time sorcerers in prior editions had approx 45ish spells known over 20 class levels this was cut down to 15. On top of that their spell list was nerfed they no longer have access to the wizard spell list. Also, eschew materials was given to all casters instead of being part of the sorcerer class by way of spell casting foci. In addition another power limiter on wizards was removed in 5e, spell school specialization. Prior when you chose your school (or arcane tradition in 5e) you had to choose 2 prohibited schools you couldn't cast from. Not to pick on wizards but the class overall was given huge power buffs when it was already a stronger option prior to 5e. Then they "balanced" the sorcerer class by nerfing its spellcasting feature by cutting spells known to 1/3. Sure they have metamagic but once your out of points they don't matter.
WOTC knows all of this and has done nothing to address which means they were essentially told the class had to be in 5e so they sabotaged it intentionally. This is further proven by the lack of subclasses for sorcerers compared to other classes 6 (5 if you don't count planeshift) compared to wizards who currently have 12. So they spend 2x as much development time on wizards than sorcerers. So no matter how much we may want fixes or development time devoted WOTC has stated through their actions that we will not get any fixes to the class.
Wizards really do make sorcerers pointless. If you want to play a fun sorcerer, pick warlock or wizard.
Sorcerer is mechanically ok technically if you pick the right spells, but it's easy to fall into trap options and end up useless. It's also mechanically boring af, as once you've used your tiny amount of metamagic, as was stated above by another user, it's basically an NPC class.
At this point I think the sorcerer lacks so much mechanical identity I don't think it should have been in 5e as a class, and metamagic should have remained a feat for all casters like with earlier editions. Sorcerers special thing was spontaneous casting, which all casters now get.
Thematically sorcerer is my favourite class, but I wouldn't dream of playing one anymore now I've played some other classes to compare and just found them so much more fun.
This is mainly due to what the designers did to the class when they ported it over to 5e. They revised the spellcasting system so that all spellcasting classes gained spontaneous casters and just gave prepared casters a vast increase in number of spells known in lieu of prepping spell slots. At the same time sorcerers in prior editions had approx 45ish spells known over 20 class levels this was cut down to 15. On top of that their spell list was nerfed they no longer have access to the wizard spell list. Also, eschew materials was given to all casters instead of being part of the sorcerer class by way of spell casting foci. In addition another power limiter on wizards was removed in 5e, spell school specialization. Prior when you chose your school (or arcane tradition in 5e) you had to choose 2 prohibited schools you couldn't cast from. Not to pick on wizards but the class overall was given huge power buffs when it was already a stronger option prior to 5e. Then they "balanced" the sorcerer class by nerfing its spellcasting feature by cutting spells known to 1/3. Sure they have metamagic but once your out of points they don't matter.
WOTC knows all of this and has done nothing to address which means they were essentially told the class had to be in 5e so they sabotaged it intentionally. This is further proven by the lack of subclasses for sorcerers compared to other classes 6 (5 if you don't count planeshift) compared to wizards who currently have 12. So they spend 2x as much development time on wizards than sorcerers. So no matter how much we may want fixes or development time devoted WOTC has stated through their actions that we will not get any fixes to the class.
The best thing to do is play warlock, and have a kind DM who allows you to say the power is coming from your bloodline rather than a patron. Their short rest casting feels more like spontaneous casting than sorcerers do. They even get unique spell lists per subclass.
Hell, even their sub subclasses get their own spell lists.
Wizards really do make sorcerers pointless. If you want to play a fun sorcerer, pick warlock or wizard.
Sorcerer is mechanically ok technically if you pick the right spells, but it's easy to fall into trap options and end up useless. It's also mechanically boring af, as once you've used your tiny amount of metamagic, as was stated above by another user, it's basically an NPC class.
At this point I think the sorcerer lacks so much mechanical identity I don't think it should have been in 5e as a class, and metamagic should have remained a feat for all casters like with earlier editions. Sorcerers special thing was spontaneous casting, which all casters now get.
Thematically sorcerer is my favourite class, but I wouldn't dream of playing one anymore now I've played some other classes to compare and just found them so much more fun.
If you don't know how to play a sorcerer, fair enough, but just because you don't know how to play a Sorcerer doesn't make it useless, just useless in your hands. Don't take that personal btw, we all have classes that we can play well and classes we don't.
Also - both Wizards and Sorcerers have the exact same amount of spell slots. If you are talking about the utility of a wizard being able to change his spell book then you are also talking about a sorcerer regaining all its meta magic because both require a long rest. If your talking about picking the wrong spells on a sorcerer than I refer you to my previous point/paragraph.
Arcane recovery is neat in you can recover a few spell slots (dependent on level), but with Quicken Spell the sorcerer gets to do all manner of fun stuff I hinted at in another thread that a wizard just can't do. That one meta-magic means they can bonus action any spell they have and use his action for something else (Dodge/dash/disengage/activate that lever/healing potion etc).
Eg. Enemy wizards/Archers targeting you? Action Dodge (disadvantage any attack roll made against you, advantage on Dex saves) and also bonus action sling that fireball at them.
Eg. Enemy too close? Action dash then sling any spell. Need to cast that save or die spell? Move, cast, if it fails carry on moving and action dash. Enemy REALLY to close, Action Disengage then sling that spell.
The 1pt meta's are awesome and preferable, hell even Empowered can be clutch. I fireballed two flying enemy wizards once as a bonus action quicken & empowered, turned a 27pt dmg into a 44pt dmg, one did make his save so I action Firebolt and killed him too (If I had been a wizard I would have been stood there waiting for two enemy wizards turn to come around).
A sorcerer simply has more options in a tough combat than a wizard who, after a short rest, gets some spell slots back. Ritual casting can be useful but hell, take a 1 bard dip for that (It costs you nothing) if thats what you want. When metamagic does runs out, well, then your just a wizard :)
They may not have "every" spell but they do have the largest spell list in the game. Whereas the sorcerer has the smallest of the full casters by a large margin. Honestly it doesn't make sense for them not to share the same spell list. Sorcerer's only get 15 spells known to the wizards (as much as I want in my book) even assuming they only get the 2 per level thats 40 something spells known to the sorcerer's 15. Metamagic is nice but was poorly designed. Whenever you have one option that overshadows the others by a large margin = bad design. quicken/twin is great but so much so that the other options don't get a chance to shine. Bear in mind that metamagic is also the sorcerer's spell recovery mechanic so chances are you won't have the points to use them as much as you seem to indicate. A 10th level sorcerer only gets 10 points if they use those points for the equivalent of a wizard's arcane recovery then they really only have 3 points to actually use metamagic. In addition most of the sub class abilities rely on sorcery points to fuel them. The wizard gets to use their abilities as much as they want without consequence. To add further imbalance wizards eventually get unlimited 1st and 2nd lvl spell slots. There is no equivalent to the sorcerer whatsoever.
They may not have "every" spell but they do have the largest spell list in the game. Whereas the sorcerer has the smallest of the full casters by a large margin. Honestly it doesn't make sense for them not to share the same spell list. Sorcerer's only get 15 spells known to the wizards (as much as I want in my book) even assuming they only get the 2 per level thats 40 something spells known to the sorcerer's 15. Metamagic is nice but was poorly designed. Whenever you have one option that overshadows the others by a large margin = bad design. quicken/twin is great but so much so that the other options don't get a chance to shine. Bear in mind that metamagic is also the sorcerer's spell recovery mechanic so chances are you won't have the points to use them as much as you seem to indicate. A 10th level sorcerer only gets 10 points if they use those points for the equivalent of a wizard's arcane recovery then they really only have 3 points to actually use metamagic. In addition most of the sub class abilities rely on sorcery points to fuel them. The wizard gets to use their abilities as much as they want without consequence. To add further imbalance wizards eventually get unlimited 1st and 2nd lvl spell slots. There is no equivalent to the sorcerer whatsoever.
Sorcerers didn't get the full wizard list because the designers were concerned with potential meta-magic synergy issues. It does make sense in that regard.
Sorcerers don't usually bother creating spell slots because meta-magic is more effective. The opposite is more likely where a slot is burned for sorc points to power meta-magic. That also removes the argument that there are not many sorc points.
The reason people mention creating slots is because arcane recovery is weaker than font of magic used the same way, and therefore not a wizard advantage. A sorcerer can take it a step farther and convert higher level slots into lower level slots for more total spell actions and still add sorc points for meta-magic. The fact that using font of magic that way is usually a weaker option than applying meta-magic doesn't change that. It just means meta-magic > font of magic > arcane recovery.
Divine souls have a spell list, btw. The size a spell list is helpful, but doesn't change where the real restrictions are. With the wizard isn't spells prepped (and his list is actually limited to his spell book) while the sorcerer has spells known. That is advantageous to the wizard, to be clear, but not to the extent claimed on forum's at times.
Arcane recovery and ritual casting don't typically do much in combat. A few more spells prepped is situational. Meta-magic is impactful and fun.
The only issues with sorcerers are that the spells known does require caution in selecting them (they are very restricted) with a bit of system mastery, and font of magic / meta-magic a shared resource so the player should understand how one is impacting the other when managing resources.
I think the biggest differences in opinions breaks down to players who think wizards are good enough in combat without meta-magic versus players who think sorcerers are good enough out of combat without the other bells and whistles. Either shines in different ways at different times.
I disagree metamagic's usefulness is highly dependant on spell selection and how it lines up with what your dm throws your way. The wizard is always useful since they have so many prepared spells due to prepared casting being turned into spontaneous casting in 5e. 15 spells known is less than virtually every casting class in the game and sorcerers are supposed to be considered a full casting class?
I find it funny that you think shrinking the sorcerer's spells list is ok for game balance. But when the sorcerer's class identity was ripped from them and given to all casting classes that it does not create an imbalance. Im fine with that but when something of that magnitude is taken from a class there needs to be something added to preserve game balance. This was not done.
This was done due to the spellcasting systerm overhaul in 5e. However it is clearly wizard biased since they also removed all spellcasting restrictions on wizards since they no longer have to choose 2 prohibited spell schools. Unless the argument is that in prior editions the sorcerer was a stronger class than the wizard which is utterly ridiculous.
I disagree metamagic's usefulness is highly dependant on spell selection and how it lines up with what your dm throws your way. The wizard is always useful since they have so many prepared spells due to prepared casting being turned into spontaneous casting in 5e. 15 spells known is less than virtually every casting class in the game and sorcerers are supposed to be considered a full casting class?
I find it funny that you think shrinking the sorcerer's spells list is ok for game balance. But when the sorcerer's class identity was ripped from them and given to all casting classes that it does not create an imbalance. Im fine with that but when something of that magnitude is taken from a class there needs to be something added to preserve game balance. This was not done.
This was done due to the spellcasting systerm overhaul in 5e. However it is clearly wizard biased since they also removed all spellcasting restrictions on wizards since they no longer have to choose 2 prohibited spell schools. Unless the argument is that in prior editions the sorcerer was a stronger class than the wizard which is utterly ridiculous.
The prior editions aren't relevant to a comparison between sorcerers and wizards in the current edition. Comparing 3.x sorcerers to 5e sorcerers means nothing when comparing 5e sorcerers to 5e wizards. Both classes are different from 3e but that's a red herring point.
I'll also point out wizards also lost out on spells available and bonus feats. Both classes evolved. This isn't a case of wizards only gaining and sorcerers only losing.
Meta-magic is dependent on spell selection but that's something the player determines. Meta-magic is not dependent on what's encountered. It's dependent on spells selected. Spells selected are impacted by what's encountered and that applies to spells prepared as well.
The wizard advantage is a few more spells known that might be useful. That advantage increases with advanced knowledge and the opportunity to rest. The sorcerer deals with that lack of advantage with careful spell selection where spells are more universally applicable and less situational.
You also keep mentioning 15 spells known. That's.incomplete information. Wizards prepare 2 more spells than sorcerers know at 1st level. Sorcerers have an extra utility cantrip instead. That remains a constant 2 more spells prepared where the wizard gains 1 or 2 leveling up with INT ASI's over time.
Wizards don't actually prepare a big gap over sorcerer spells known until tier 3 when prep maintains progression while spells known drops off. That small gap doesn't leave room for the impact you are describing. There simply aren't enough high impact spells beyond what's already being taken by either class to create a large advantage over a few spells. Those spells tend to be used for utility instead of combat as well.
A player might want a bigger toolbox of spells, but what is needed is an offensive, defensive, and utility spell for low, medium, and high level ranges. Sorcerer spells known progression does allow for that need. The character only needs so many and defensive spells. The rest get used on other things, which is a reason wizards tend to have more out of combat options. I tend towards four five offensive spells, couple defensive, and the rest whatever on a high level sorcerer.
The spells known is cramped, but it's worth it to me for the meta-magic.
Really dislike how they've done the divine soul sorcerer. It should have a specific list of cleric spells it can use like every other spellcaster with extended spell lists. And then all other sorcerer bloodlines should have that too.
Rather than being given an entire classes spell list and then being the posterboy of 'sorcerer is amazing' while all the other subclasses are so disappointing.
I've played different subclasses and I do like divine should best but having the added spell list isn't s great as people think. You still only get 16 spells and you can only change one when you level up unless your DM allows the alternate class features from UA. Cleric spells are designed with clerics in mind so there are many touch spells and spells where you need to be in melee range. For a glass canon that tends to be a no go unless you take a feat. A lot of divine souls end up multi classing with Cleric or Warlock because the other limitations for the class stay the same.
From a mechanics perspective I personally favor Sorcerers--especially if your table allows the UA Class Features rules. Honestly no matter how hard I try, every character I create ends up with some # of sorcerer levels. I typically gravitate toward some combination of Cleric + Sorcerer. Course I'm currently playing an Eladrin Sorc/Bard--loving it.
Why?
Pros
Charisma based skills are the most valuable in the game IMHO followed by Wis or Dex based. Int only serves knowledge skills and is rarely needed for Saves.
Sorc gets Con save, huge boon to casters ( all classes really ). I consider Cha to be the best secondary save as well.
Sorcery Points/Font of Magic = More spells than most other classes and flexibility ( if your table uses UA Class Features this is even better. ie granting advantage on Skill checks )
Metamagic - Subtle Spell is amazeballs. Plenty of other good metamagics to complete for 2nd place.
Most cantrips out of the gate ( rivaled only by an Arcane Cleric ). Cantrips are fantastic!
UA Class Features allows you to replace ANY spell you have with another of the same level after a Long Rest ( wizards have to find/buy ).
Cons
Access to fewer spells
No "ritual casting"
FYI - I multiclass all the time. Half-elves & Tieflings are possibly the best--but I'm not opposed to just about any race that can boost con and/or cha. Skills wise? you have magic. Magic can replace most skills. Dragonborn, I honestly consider to be one of the weakest choices for either, however if it fits your character concept--concept should win.
There are much more cons to a sorcerer compared to a wizard than that. Here's my list:
Pros of playing a sorcerer over a wizard:
More roleplay potential due to class design and Charisma as primary stat.
Constitution saving throws ('nuff said).
Sorcery Points to cast spells and use metamagic is a nice ability, the core identity of the whole class.
No gold required to play your class.
Better to multiclass into compared to a wizard.
Cons of playing a sorcerer over a wizard:
Smaller amount of known spells.
Smaller spell list.
More limited spell list (pertaining to spell choice).
Way less unique spells.
No rituals.
No spellbook for prepared spells and ritual casting.
No arcane recovery, which is most often better than Font of Magic, due to the fact that your sorcery points will be eaten up by your metamagic.
Less flexibility than a wizard.
Worse subclasses overall.
Less subclasses.
Extremely limited playstyle pertaining to the diversity of subclasses (everyone knows why a necromancer is a necromancer, while not everyone knows why a storm sorcerer isn't a blue draconic bloodline sorcerer)
Less of a unified theme.
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There are much more cons to a sorcerer compared to a wizard than that. Here's my list:
Pros of playing a sorcerer over a wizard:
More roleplay potential due to class design and Charisma as primary stat.
Constitution saving throws ('nuff said).
Sorcery Points to cast spells and use metamagic is a nice ability, the core identity of the whole class.
No gold required to play your class.
Better to multiclass into compared to a wizard.
Cons of playing a sorcerer over a wizard:
Smaller amount of known spells.
Smaller spell list.
More limited spell list (pertaining to spell choice).
Way less unique spells.
No rituals.
No spellbook for prepared spells and ritual casting.
No arcane recovery, which is most often better than Font of Magic, due to the fact that your sorcery points will be eaten up by your metamagic.
Less flexibility than a wizard.
Worse subclasses overall.
Less subclasses.
Extremely limited playstyle pertaining to the diversity of subclasses (everyone knows why a necromancer is a necromancer, while not everyone knows why a storm sorcerer isn't a blue draconic bloodline sorcerer)
Less of a unified theme.
There's tautology in your sorc cons.
Smaller spell list and more limited spell list is the same thing. Less unique spells is almost the same thing.
No rituals and the spell book ritual mechanic is the same advantage for wizards.
Worse subclasses, less subclasses, and more limited subclasses is the same thing.
Other than that...
Wizards don't have to pay for the class. It was balanced around the free spells gained per level. Adding spells is a gravy advantage. I would love the "disadvantage" of gaining extra spells for gold, lol. ;-)
Theme might be be harder to build around but that's not mechanically a disadvantage.
Font of magic is undeniably better than arcane recovery. Just because meta-magic is so much better than font of magic (and font of magic is used for the opposite effect of arcane recovery) that it usually takes priority doesn't change that. It reinforces the value of meta-magic.
Sorcerers have a concentration advantage, situational benefits from font of magic, charisma checks instead of intelligence checks, bloodlines right from 1st level, an additional cantrip, and the biggie of meta-magic.
Wizards have a better spell list, spell prep (including more prepped than sorcs know), intelligence checks versus charisma checks, arcane recovery independent of other features, ritual casting, and a wider variety of subclasses.
Both are good. I prefer sorcerers in combat because of meta-magic and wizards out of combat because of the rituals, prep mechanics, and broader spell selection. But both are good.
Smaller spell list and more limited spell list is the same thing. Less unique spells is almost the same thing.
It's not. A cleric and a bard can have the same length of spell list while still having different spells with different uses. Sorcerers basically have wizard spell lists, but mostly limited to mostly evocation spells. Sorcerers focus more on damage than wizards do.
No rituals and the spell book ritual mechanic is the same advantage for wizards.
Not really. Druids, Clerics, and Artificers can cast ritual spells, but have to prepare them, while wizards just need them in their spellbook.
Worse subclasses, less subclasses, and more limited subclasses is the same thing.
Nope, it's not. There are only 5 official sorcerer subclasses, while there are 12 wizard ones, that's having less subclasses. Then, sorcerer subclasses are overall objectively worse than the average wizard subclasses, and also more limiting in playstyle.
Wizards don't have to pay for the class. It was balanced around the free spells gained per level. Adding spells is a gravy advantage. I would love the "disadvantage" of gaining extra spells for gold, lol. ;-)
Theme might be be harder to build around but that's not mechanically a disadvantage.
Font of magic is undeniably better than arcane recovery. Just because meta-magic is so much better than font of magic (and font of magic is used for the opposite effect of arcane recovery) that it usually takes priority doesn't change that. It reinforces the value of meta-magic.
Sorcerers have a concentration advantage, situational benefits from font of magic, charisma checks instead of intelligence checks, bloodlines right from 1st level, an additional cantrip, and the biggie of meta-magic.
Wizards have a better spell list, spell prep (including more prepped than sorcs know), intelligence checks versus charisma checks, arcane recovery independent of other features, ritual casting, and a wider variety of subclasses.
Both are good. I prefer sorcerers in combat because of meta-magic and wizards out of combat because of the rituals, prep mechanics, and broader spell selection. But both are good.
Sorcerers are not as good as wizards and most other full casters, overall.
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Smaller spell list and more limited spell list is the same thing. Less unique spells is almost the same thing.
It's not. A cleric and a bard can have the same length of spell list while still having different spells with different uses. Sorcerers basically have wizard spell lists, but mostly limited to mostly evocation spells. Sorcerers focus more on damage than wizards do.
No rituals and the spell book ritual mechanic is the same advantage for wizards.
Not really. Druids, Clerics, and Artificers can cast ritual spells, but have to prepare them, while wizards just need them in their spellbook.
Worse subclasses, less subclasses, and more limited subclasses is the same thing.
Nope, it's not. There are only 5 official sorcerer subclasses, while there are 12 wizard ones, that's having less subclasses. Then, sorcerer subclasses are overall objectively worse than the average wizard subclasses, and also more limiting in playstyle.
Wizards don't have to pay for the class. It was balanced around the free spells gained per level. Adding spells is a gravy advantage. I would love the "disadvantage" of gaining extra spells for gold, lol. ;-)
Theme might be be harder to build around but that's not mechanically a disadvantage.
Font of magic is undeniably better than arcane recovery. Just because meta-magic is so much better than font of magic (and font of magic is used for the opposite effect of arcane recovery) that it usually takes priority doesn't change that. It reinforces the value of meta-magic.
Sorcerers have a concentration advantage, situational benefits from font of magic, charisma checks instead of intelligence checks, bloodlines right from 1st level, an additional cantrip, and the biggie of meta-magic.
Wizards have a better spell list, spell prep (including more prepped than sorcs know), intelligence checks versus charisma checks, arcane recovery independent of other features, ritual casting, and a wider variety of subclasses.
Both are good. I prefer sorcerers in combat because of meta-magic and wizards out of combat because of the rituals, prep mechanics, and broader spell selection. But both are good.
Sorcerers are not as good as wizards and most other full casters, overall.
Having more spells is automatically going to give more variety or unique spells. That is the same thing. For reference (levels 1-9):
School
Sorcerer
Wizard
Sorc
Wizard
Abjuration
9
26
5.63%
9.74%
Conjuration
23
41
14.38%
15.36%
Divination
8
17
5.00%
6.37%
Enchantment
19
24
11.88%
8.99%
Evocation
38
51
23.75%
19.10%
Illusion
15
29
9.38%
10.86%
Necromancy
9
24
5.63%
8.99%
Transmutation
39
55
24.38%
20.60%
160
267
100.00%
100.00%
Note the similar pattern in allocation of schools. It's true that the wizard easily has a longer spell list but it's not true that the sorcerer spell list is mostly evocation spells. In reality, evocation and transmutation are the biggest schools for either class, and neither class is predominantly one school. In both cases the sorcerer is further limited by spells known while the wizard is further limited by spells scribed and again by spells prepped during any given encounter. That advantage does exist for the wizard by not by the degree sometimes expressed on forums. A spell that's not in play is has zero value regardless of how long the list of those spells might be. ;-)
The wizard ritual mechanic compared to artificers, bards, clerics, or druids only means the advantage is greater than in comparison to those classes. It doesn't mean it's more than one advantage.
How did you demonstrate sorcerer subclasses are objectively worse? That looks based on subjective value of the player looking at specific traits found within those subclasses. Shadow sorcerer and divine soul are good subclasses. Draconic is good or not so good depending on how it set up for the elemental characteristics but free AC and bonus hp are always nice. Storm is okay but works best with specific play styles. Wild mage is fun and does have some useful abilities regardless of the random nature of surges and inconsistency among DM's. We'll have to see what the UA subclasses look like that come out with Tasha's.
Your final statement didn't refute anything quoted above it. That was nothing more than a reiteration of your opinion.
Having a lot of spells that a class isn't actually using does not do much. At any given point in time that sorcerer only knows a few less spells than the wizard prepares until the spells known table drops off for the higher levels. Spell swapping only gives a situational advantage and only provided advanced knowledge and time are available. The more spells prepped versus known is the bigger advantage there and that's not that much. The extra spells available and rituals do give more versatility. They aren't better than meta-magic in encounters. Subtle avoids a weakness for spell casters. Twin or quicken increase potency of the action. Heighten or empowered directly increase the potency of the spell. Careful allows for dropping a hypnotic pattern right on the party which evokers cannot do even if they can fireball safely, and a lot more can be twinned than just enchantments like an enchanter before looking at sorc subclasses getting into the subclass versus meta-magic argument.
Sorcerers are great in certain areas depending on spells, meta-magic, and subclass chosen.
- Which is the more advantageous in terms of combat skills and survival skills?
Answer: What do you mean combat/survival skills. If you mean by combat skills as to defeat multiple enemies I’d say wizard flies past sorcerer, if by crowd control wizards again, if by PvP wizard at higher levels is the best only rivalled by a Moon Druid and Hexascoradin (Hexblade/Sorcerer/Paladin) but then again a 18 Wizard/2 Fighter character could easily overpower via double castings of spells defeat those builds (Fully depends on the builds fighting though). As with survival the wizard just dominates with the spell selection (Tiny Hut, All the warding spells and MORE!) and ritual spells.
- Which race can benefit the most out of becoming either a sorcerer or a wizard?
Answer: I think you mean what race benefits the a sorcerer or wizard the most. For the wizard I’d say Hobgoblin, Deep Gnome, Variant Human or Elf is the best but as of tashas there are much more viable race choices. As with sorcerer I’d say Variant human, Half-elves and tieflings.
- Which is better: a dragonborn sorcerer or a dragonborn wizard?
Answer: A dragon born sorcerer is better as the Cha bonus helps he sorcerer. As with the tashas it makes the Dragonborn much more viable for each class though.
I am not going to weigh in on what's better overall, but just say that Sorcs may be very well adapted for Adventure League play. From what I can tell, most sessions have two or three combat encounters, and seem fairly rail-roady in terms of the plot. With that in mind, conserving metamagic resources for a long adventuring day isn't nearly as important, nor is having an incredibly diverse tool kit that can be reset with a long rest.
I just started an AL sorc, so obviously my perspective is limited. I did take a wizard level at level 2, and I believe that the first level of wiz packs a ton of utility for the a sorc. Familiar and a number of other great rituals, and "oh shit" spells that you always want but don't require a high casting stat. Shield, absorb elements, feather fall, fog cloud, stuff like that. Those won't take up your 15 known spells. Same story with cantrips. Wizard can get you things like Minor Illusion and Mage Hand and allow a good range of combat options on the sorc side. The plan is to get to the Evoker subclass around character level 7.
Finally, a purpose built sorc would destroy the wizard in a social campaign. Subtle spell, obviously, but sorcs will have much better persuasion, deception, and other CHA based skills.
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This is mainly due to what the designers did to the class when they ported it over to 5e. They revised the spellcasting system so that all spellcasting classes gained spontaneous casters and just gave prepared casters a vast increase in number of spells known in lieu of prepping spell slots. At the same time sorcerers in prior editions had approx 45ish spells known over 20 class levels this was cut down to 15. On top of that their spell list was nerfed they no longer have access to the wizard spell list. Also, eschew materials was given to all casters instead of being part of the sorcerer class by way of spell casting foci. In addition another power limiter on wizards was removed in 5e, spell school specialization. Prior when you chose your school (or arcane tradition in 5e) you had to choose 2 prohibited schools you couldn't cast from. Not to pick on wizards but the class overall was given huge power buffs when it was already a stronger option prior to 5e. Then they "balanced" the sorcerer class by nerfing its spellcasting feature by cutting spells known to 1/3. Sure they have metamagic but once your out of points they don't matter.
WOTC knows all of this and has done nothing to address which means they were essentially told the class had to be in 5e so they sabotaged it intentionally. This is further proven by the lack of subclasses for sorcerers compared to other classes 6 (5 if you don't count planeshift) compared to wizards who currently have 12. So they spend 2x as much development time on wizards than sorcerers. So no matter how much we may want fixes or development time devoted WOTC has stated through their actions that we will not get any fixes to the class.
The best thing to do is play warlock, and have a kind DM who allows you to say the power is coming from your bloodline rather than a patron. Their short rest casting feels more like spontaneous casting than sorcerers do. They even get unique spell lists per subclass.
Hell, even their sub subclasses get their own spell lists.
If you don't know how to play a sorcerer, fair enough, but just because you don't know how to play a Sorcerer doesn't make it useless, just useless in your hands. Don't take that personal btw, we all have classes that we can play well and classes we don't.
Also - both Wizards and Sorcerers have the exact same amount of spell slots. If you are talking about the utility of a wizard being able to change his spell book then you are also talking about a sorcerer regaining all its meta magic because both require a long rest. If your talking about picking the wrong spells on a sorcerer than I refer you to my previous point/paragraph.
Arcane recovery is neat in you can recover a few spell slots (dependent on level), but with Quicken Spell the sorcerer gets to do all manner of fun stuff I hinted at in another thread that a wizard just can't do. That one meta-magic means they can bonus action any spell they have and use his action for something else (Dodge/dash/disengage/activate that lever/healing potion etc).
Eg. Enemy wizards/Archers targeting you? Action Dodge (disadvantage any attack roll made against you, advantage on Dex saves) and also bonus action sling that fireball at them.
Eg. Enemy too close? Action dash then sling any spell. Need to cast that save or die spell? Move, cast, if it fails carry on moving and action dash. Enemy REALLY to close, Action Disengage then sling that spell.
The 1pt meta's are awesome and preferable, hell even Empowered can be clutch. I fireballed two flying enemy wizards once as a bonus action quicken & empowered, turned a 27pt dmg into a 44pt dmg, one did make his save so I action Firebolt and killed him too (If I had been a wizard I would have been stood there waiting for two enemy wizards turn to come around).
A sorcerer simply has more options in a tough combat than a wizard who, after a short rest, gets some spell slots back. Ritual casting can be useful but hell, take a 1 bard dip for that (It costs you nothing) if thats what you want. When metamagic does runs out, well, then your just a wizard :)
Wizards don't have every spell in the game.
They may not have "every" spell but they do have the largest spell list in the game. Whereas the sorcerer has the smallest of the full casters by a large margin. Honestly it doesn't make sense for them not to share the same spell list. Sorcerer's only get 15 spells known to the wizards (as much as I want in my book) even assuming they only get the 2 per level thats 40 something spells known to the sorcerer's 15. Metamagic is nice but was poorly designed. Whenever you have one option that overshadows the others by a large margin = bad design. quicken/twin is great but so much so that the other options don't get a chance to shine. Bear in mind that metamagic is also the sorcerer's spell recovery mechanic so chances are you won't have the points to use them as much as you seem to indicate. A 10th level sorcerer only gets 10 points if they use those points for the equivalent of a wizard's arcane recovery then they really only have 3 points to actually use metamagic. In addition most of the sub class abilities rely on sorcery points to fuel them. The wizard gets to use their abilities as much as they want without consequence. To add further imbalance wizards eventually get unlimited 1st and 2nd lvl spell slots. There is no equivalent to the sorcerer whatsoever.
Sorcerers didn't get the full wizard list because the designers were concerned with potential meta-magic synergy issues. It does make sense in that regard.
Sorcerers don't usually bother creating spell slots because meta-magic is more effective. The opposite is more likely where a slot is burned for sorc points to power meta-magic. That also removes the argument that there are not many sorc points.
The reason people mention creating slots is because arcane recovery is weaker than font of magic used the same way, and therefore not a wizard advantage. A sorcerer can take it a step farther and convert higher level slots into lower level slots for more total spell actions and still add sorc points for meta-magic. The fact that using font of magic that way is usually a weaker option than applying meta-magic doesn't change that. It just means meta-magic > font of magic > arcane recovery.
Divine souls have a spell list, btw. The size a spell list is helpful, but doesn't change where the real restrictions are. With the wizard isn't spells prepped (and his list is actually limited to his spell book) while the sorcerer has spells known. That is advantageous to the wizard, to be clear, but not to the extent claimed on forum's at times.
Arcane recovery and ritual casting don't typically do much in combat. A few more spells prepped is situational. Meta-magic is impactful and fun.
The only issues with sorcerers are that the spells known does require caution in selecting them (they are very restricted) with a bit of system mastery, and font of magic / meta-magic a shared resource so the player should understand how one is impacting the other when managing resources.
I think the biggest differences in opinions breaks down to players who think wizards are good enough in combat without meta-magic versus players who think sorcerers are good enough out of combat without the other bells and whistles. Either shines in different ways at different times.
I disagree metamagic's usefulness is highly dependant on spell selection and how it lines up with what your dm throws your way. The wizard is always useful since they have so many prepared spells due to prepared casting being turned into spontaneous casting in 5e. 15 spells known is less than virtually every casting class in the game and sorcerers are supposed to be considered a full casting class?
I find it funny that you think shrinking the sorcerer's spells list is ok for game balance. But when the sorcerer's class identity was ripped from them and given to all casting classes that it does not create an imbalance. Im fine with that but when something of that magnitude is taken from a class there needs to be something added to preserve game balance. This was not done.
This was done due to the spellcasting systerm overhaul in 5e. However it is clearly wizard biased since they also removed all spellcasting restrictions on wizards since they no longer have to choose 2 prohibited spell schools. Unless the argument is that in prior editions the sorcerer was a stronger class than the wizard which is utterly ridiculous.
The prior editions aren't relevant to a comparison between sorcerers and wizards in the current edition. Comparing 3.x sorcerers to 5e sorcerers means nothing when comparing 5e sorcerers to 5e wizards. Both classes are different from 3e but that's a red herring point.
I'll also point out wizards also lost out on spells available and bonus feats. Both classes evolved. This isn't a case of wizards only gaining and sorcerers only losing.
Meta-magic is dependent on spell selection but that's something the player determines. Meta-magic is not dependent on what's encountered. It's dependent on spells selected. Spells selected are impacted by what's encountered and that applies to spells prepared as well.
The wizard advantage is a few more spells known that might be useful. That advantage increases with advanced knowledge and the opportunity to rest. The sorcerer deals with that lack of advantage with careful spell selection where spells are more universally applicable and less situational.
You also keep mentioning 15 spells known. That's.incomplete information. Wizards prepare 2 more spells than sorcerers know at 1st level. Sorcerers have an extra utility cantrip instead. That remains a constant 2 more spells prepared where the wizard gains 1 or 2 leveling up with INT ASI's over time.
Wizards don't actually prepare a big gap over sorcerer spells known until tier 3 when prep maintains progression while spells known drops off. That small gap doesn't leave room for the impact you are describing. There simply aren't enough high impact spells beyond what's already being taken by either class to create a large advantage over a few spells. Those spells tend to be used for utility instead of combat as well.
A player might want a bigger toolbox of spells, but what is needed is an offensive, defensive, and utility spell for low, medium, and high level ranges. Sorcerer spells known progression does allow for that need. The character only needs so many and defensive spells. The rest get used on other things, which is a reason wizards tend to have more out of combat options. I tend towards four five offensive spells, couple defensive, and the rest whatever on a high level sorcerer.
The spells known is cramped, but it's worth it to me for the meta-magic.
Really dislike how they've done the divine soul sorcerer. It should have a specific list of cleric spells it can use like every other spellcaster with extended spell lists. And then all other sorcerer bloodlines should have that too.
Rather than being given an entire classes spell list and then being the posterboy of 'sorcerer is amazing' while all the other subclasses are so disappointing.
I've played different subclasses and I do like divine should best but having the added spell list isn't s great as people think. You still only get 16 spells and you can only change one when you level up unless your DM allows the alternate class features from UA. Cleric spells are designed with clerics in mind so there are many touch spells and spells where you need to be in melee range. For a glass canon that tends to be a no go unless you take a feat. A lot of divine souls end up multi classing with Cleric or Warlock because the other limitations for the class stay the same.
From a mechanics perspective I personally favor Sorcerers--especially if your table allows the UA Class Features rules. Honestly no matter how hard I try, every character I create ends up with some # of sorcerer levels. I typically gravitate toward some combination of Cleric + Sorcerer. Course I'm currently playing an Eladrin Sorc/Bard--loving it.
Why?
Pros
Cons
FYI - I multiclass all the time. Half-elves & Tieflings are possibly the best--but I'm not opposed to just about any race that can boost con and/or cha. Skills wise? you have magic. Magic can replace most skills. Dragonborn, I honestly consider to be one of the weakest choices for either, however if it fits your character concept--concept should win.
There are much more cons to a sorcerer compared to a wizard than that. Here's my list:
Pros of playing a sorcerer over a wizard:
Cons of playing a sorcerer over a wizard:
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Funny. I consider Sorcerers and Clerics to the be the most powerful classes in the game ( Sorcs 1rst ).
There's tautology in your sorc cons.
Smaller spell list and more limited spell list is the same thing. Less unique spells is almost the same thing.
No rituals and the spell book ritual mechanic is the same advantage for wizards.
Worse subclasses, less subclasses, and more limited subclasses is the same thing.
Other than that...
Wizards don't have to pay for the class. It was balanced around the free spells gained per level. Adding spells is a gravy advantage. I would love the "disadvantage" of gaining extra spells for gold, lol. ;-)
Theme might be be harder to build around but that's not mechanically a disadvantage.
Font of magic is undeniably better than arcane recovery. Just because meta-magic is so much better than font of magic (and font of magic is used for the opposite effect of arcane recovery) that it usually takes priority doesn't change that. It reinforces the value of meta-magic.
Sorcerers have a concentration advantage, situational benefits from font of magic, charisma checks instead of intelligence checks, bloodlines right from 1st level, an additional cantrip, and the biggie of meta-magic.
Wizards have a better spell list, spell prep (including more prepped than sorcs know), intelligence checks versus charisma checks, arcane recovery independent of other features, ritual casting, and a wider variety of subclasses.
Both are good. I prefer sorcerers in combat because of meta-magic and wizards out of combat because of the rituals, prep mechanics, and broader spell selection. But both are good.
It's not. A cleric and a bard can have the same length of spell list while still having different spells with different uses. Sorcerers basically have wizard spell lists, but mostly limited to mostly evocation spells. Sorcerers focus more on damage than wizards do.
Not really. Druids, Clerics, and Artificers can cast ritual spells, but have to prepare them, while wizards just need them in their spellbook.
Nope, it's not. There are only 5 official sorcerer subclasses, while there are 12 wizard ones, that's having less subclasses. Then, sorcerer subclasses are overall objectively worse than the average wizard subclasses, and also more limiting in playstyle.
Sorcerers are not as good as wizards and most other full casters, overall.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Having more spells is automatically going to give more variety or unique spells. That is the same thing. For reference (levels 1-9):
Note the similar pattern in allocation of schools. It's true that the wizard easily has a longer spell list but it's not true that the sorcerer spell list is mostly evocation spells. In reality, evocation and transmutation are the biggest schools for either class, and neither class is predominantly one school. In both cases the sorcerer is further limited by spells known while the wizard is further limited by spells scribed and again by spells prepped during any given encounter. That advantage does exist for the wizard by not by the degree sometimes expressed on forums. A spell that's not in play is has zero value regardless of how long the list of those spells might be. ;-)
The wizard ritual mechanic compared to artificers, bards, clerics, or druids only means the advantage is greater than in comparison to those classes. It doesn't mean it's more than one advantage.
How did you demonstrate sorcerer subclasses are objectively worse? That looks based on subjective value of the player looking at specific traits found within those subclasses. Shadow sorcerer and divine soul are good subclasses. Draconic is good or not so good depending on how it set up for the elemental characteristics but free AC and bonus hp are always nice. Storm is okay but works best with specific play styles. Wild mage is fun and does have some useful abilities regardless of the random nature of surges and inconsistency among DM's. We'll have to see what the UA subclasses look like that come out with Tasha's.
Your final statement didn't refute anything quoted above it. That was nothing more than a reiteration of your opinion.
Having a lot of spells that a class isn't actually using does not do much. At any given point in time that sorcerer only knows a few less spells than the wizard prepares until the spells known table drops off for the higher levels. Spell swapping only gives a situational advantage and only provided advanced knowledge and time are available. The more spells prepped versus known is the bigger advantage there and that's not that much. The extra spells available and rituals do give more versatility. They aren't better than meta-magic in encounters. Subtle avoids a weakness for spell casters. Twin or quicken increase potency of the action. Heighten or empowered directly increase the potency of the spell. Careful allows for dropping a hypnotic pattern right on the party which evokers cannot do even if they can fireball safely, and a lot more can be twinned than just enchantments like an enchanter before looking at sorc subclasses getting into the subclass versus meta-magic argument.
Sorcerers are great in certain areas depending on spells, meta-magic, and subclass chosen.
With access to the Cleric list, Divine Soul Sorcerer makes a fair Necromancer, even having True Resurrection.
Of course, like all Sorcerers, if that's what you specialize in you won't be doing much of anything else.
Answer: I’ll try my best...
Answer: What do you mean combat/survival skills. If you mean by combat skills as to defeat multiple enemies I’d say wizard flies past sorcerer, if by crowd control wizards again, if by PvP wizard at higher levels is the best only rivalled by a Moon Druid and Hexascoradin (Hexblade/Sorcerer/Paladin) but then again a 18 Wizard/2 Fighter character could easily overpower via double castings of spells defeat those builds (Fully depends on the builds fighting though). As with survival the wizard just dominates with the spell selection (Tiny Hut, All the warding spells and MORE!) and ritual spells.
Answer: I think you mean what race benefits the a sorcerer or wizard the most. For the wizard I’d say Hobgoblin, Deep Gnome, Variant Human or Elf is the best but as of tashas there are much more viable race choices. As with sorcerer I’d say Variant human, Half-elves and tieflings.
Answer: You could probably but it wouldn’t be best though as a wizard you might want to get subtle spell I guess but I wouldn’t recommend it.
Answer: A dragon born sorcerer is better as the Cha bonus helps he sorcerer. As with the tashas it makes the Dragonborn much more viable for each class though.
I am not going to weigh in on what's better overall, but just say that Sorcs may be very well adapted for Adventure League play. From what I can tell, most sessions have two or three combat encounters, and seem fairly rail-roady in terms of the plot. With that in mind, conserving metamagic resources for a long adventuring day isn't nearly as important, nor is having an incredibly diverse tool kit that can be reset with a long rest.
I just started an AL sorc, so obviously my perspective is limited. I did take a wizard level at level 2, and I believe that the first level of wiz packs a ton of utility for the a sorc. Familiar and a number of other great rituals, and "oh shit" spells that you always want but don't require a high casting stat. Shield, absorb elements, feather fall, fog cloud, stuff like that. Those won't take up your 15 known spells. Same story with cantrips. Wizard can get you things like Minor Illusion and Mage Hand and allow a good range of combat options on the sorc side. The plan is to get to the Evoker subclass around character level 7.
Finally, a purpose built sorc would destroy the wizard in a social campaign. Subtle spell, obviously, but sorcs will have much better persuasion, deception, and other CHA based skills.