YMMV on this one. The RAW states that when a creature within 60 ft that you can see begins casting a spell, you can counter spell it. While the range of the spell gets doubled, it doesn’t seem to change that you’re still required to see the guy 60ft away for it to work. I’d work with your DM on this one. The intention seems to be there with the spells range correlating with the text, but it might not fly at every table.
Overall though, if no one else has it, Counterspell is a good choice to have, and 60 ft is fairly generous unless all of their spell casters are flying around.
Distant Spell affects the Range of a spell. Counterspell has a range of 60 ft. Distant Spell doubles the range so the range becomes 120 ft. This means if you see a creature within 120 ft of you casting a spell you can use Distant Spell Counterspell to attempt to stop it.
This is RAW. This is RAI. This is balanced. This is clear, defined and not open to interpretation. If you DM is saying no to this I would suggest asking them why they're going against the RAW/RAI of this very clearly defined facet of the metamagic and spell and why they did not make you aware beforehand they were changing how Distant Spell or Counterspell works before you could choose them.
Apologies if this is a necro, I picked up this topic from a metacrawler search, scanned the sticky in the immediate forum didn't see anything relating to a statute for necros.
Distant Spell affects the Range of a spell [when you cast a spell]. Counterspell has a range of 60 ft. Distant Spell [can] doubles the range so the range becomes 120 ft. This means if you see a creature within 120 ft of you casting a spell you can use Distant Spell Counterspell to attempt to stop it.
Emphasis my own in your quote. Distant spell only affects the range of spells when you cast them. Counterspell specifically calls out within its' spell block text a condition which MUST be met as written within the Casting Time header. That conditional requires (a reaction and) you to see the target casting the spell you wish to counter AND for that target to be within 60 ft of you; if you don't have both of those conditions, you are not entitled to the specific reaction: counterspell.
Simply knowing the metamagic feature does not change the range of the spell (until you cast it) and even if it did (which it doesn't), it has absolutely no effect on the specific casting time conditional within the spell block text. This casting conditional and the range of the spell (which happen to be the same in this instance) are two separate entries within the spell block text and should not be conflated. Spells do what they say and say what they do, period, full-stop.
In short, you could increase the range of counterspell to 120 ft, however, it would be moot as you MUST be within 60 ft of your target, they MUST be casting a spell, and you MUST see them doing so. This essentially wastes the additional 60 ft range and 1 sorc point as you'll already be within 60 ft or you will not have triggered your reaction to counter.
distant spell, double the range. that makes it usable to 120 ft.
not sure what's hard about this. as long as you can see the target 120 ft away it's usable at 120 ft with distant spell
the wording is no different then if magic missile said you shoot at a creature you can see within 120 ft
Read the message above you. Even if you use Distant spell, it doesn't change the trigger, which is seeing a creature within 60 feet of you cast a spell. Magic missile has no such requirement, along with most other spells.
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distant spell, double the range. that makes it usable to 120 ft.
not sure what's hard about this. as long as you can see the target 120 ft away it's usable at 120 ft with distant spell
the wording is no different then if magic missile said you shoot at a creature you can see within 120 ft
Read the message above you. Even if you use Distant spell, it doesn't change the trigger, which is seeing a creature within 60 feet of you cast a spell. Magic missile has no such requirement, along with most other spells.
I'm with Unsu and Yharim on this one. Look at the actual details page for Counterspell. The importance is not that the default "Range/Area" is set to 60 ft, but that the "Casting Time" of "1 Reaction *" (that asterisk supplement is definitive) has the restriction of 60 ft. You can meta that spell all you want, but it will never work past 60 ft because the restricting factor is not the spell itself; it is the character.
If you want an analogy, look to Projectile Physics (in a fantasy world, yes, I know). A spell that traverses across any distance is going to have an initial velocity (speed), and an acceleration that is either zero (static velocity), a constant (value doesn't matter), or dynamic (formula doesn't matter). Why do these things that don't matter actually matter? TIME.
If a spell (with a casting time <= 1 action) is capable of crossing a certain distance, even when modified with metamagic, we can assume that it will cross that distance during the round. A full round is 6 seconds of "real time". A reaction is a fraction of that; blink of the eye, really. We don't have specific information about the speed of Counterspell, but we do have time and distance. In particular, since the spell's description of casting time has a direct reference to a specific distance (not the Range/Area), the logic is as follows:
Metamagic can make Counterspell traverse a total distance of up to 120 ft
Counterspell must travel at a rate that is capable of crossing 60 ft within the time frame of one reaction
The movement equations of Counterspell are not directly tied to the distance property
Ergo, Counterspell is only capable of crossing 60 ft in the time frame of one reaction
Therefore, we can conclude that while Distant Spell can technically be applied to Counterspell, it would be a complete waste to do so. You could send a Counterspell up to 120 ft away from you, but it won't get there in time to actually stop the enemy from finishing their own spell first.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Thanks Unsu for the necro and the knowledge. My guess is that “60 feet of you” should read “range” as the intent is probably for Distant Spell to be effective. But RAW, Distant Spell is not effective and I don’t see anything in the PHB errata or Sage Advice that would reverse that. Looks like my sorcerer will take Empowered rather than Distant at level 10.
Thanks Unsu for the necro and the knowledge. My guess is that “60 feet of you” should read “range” as the intent is probably for Distant Spell to be effective. But RAW, Distant Spell is not effective and I don’t see anything in the PHB errata or Sage Advice that would reverse that. Looks like my sorcerer will take Empowered rather than Distant at level 10.
It does actually read as Range. But it reads as range in plain English rather than technical jargon of somehow marking and calling out the word as special and applying to the typical range of the spell.
Which is the argueing point that many people are using. they are trying to differentiate the plane English statement of how the spell works (target you see within 60 feet) and the technical aspect of that plain language (target you see within the range of the spell which is typically 60' without other modifiers to it) and you fit certain factors then you can use this spell to it's intended effect.
Thanks Unsu for the necro and the knowledge. My guess is that “60 feet of you” should read “range” as the intent is probably for Distant Spell to be effective. But RAW, Distant Spell is not effective and I don’t see anything in the PHB errata or Sage Advice that would reverse that. Looks like my sorcerer will take Empowered rather than Distant at level 10.
It does actually read as Range. But it reads as range in plain English rather than technical jargon of somehow marking and calling out the word as special and applying to the typical range of the spell.
Which is the argueing point that many people are using. they are trying to differentiate the plane English statement of how the spell works (target you see within 60 feet) and the technical aspect of that plain language (target you see within the range of the spell which is typically 60' without other modifiers to it) and you fit certain factors then you can use this spell to it's intended effect.
I'm not sure if I understand your intended point. The spell does have a standard range entry of 60 feet that is no different from any other spell's range, and that range can be affected by Distant Spell. However, that is not the limitation specific to Counterspell which makes Distant Spell useless with it.
As I mentioned in a previous post, the limitation is time. Counterspell has a specific requirement attached to the casting time. In order to successfully cast the spell as a reaction (which is the only time you can use the spell anyway), the target of the spell must be "a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell". That's a static requirement, and is not affected by Distant Spell.
Whether the spell could hypothetically traverse a distance greater than 60 feet or not is irrelevant. If the target casting a spell is not within 60 feet of you, it is not possible to successfully cast the spell to begin with.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
The complication comes because there is a 60' specified as the range of the spell and a 60' specified in the text of the trigger. Distant Spell increases the range of the spell, but by RAW has no effect on the text of the trigger. If the text of the trigger had been "which you take when you see a creature within Counterspell's range casting a spell", then absolutely you could use Distant Spell to Counterspell out to 120'.
My interpretation is that Distant Spell doesn't work here, because the trigger has to occur before you actually cast the spell, meaning before you apply Metamagic. In the same way that you cannot cast Shield before you're actually hit by an attack or targeted by Magic Missile, you can't cast Counterspell until you see a creature casting a spell within 60' of you. And since you haven't cast Counterspell yet, you cannot have used Distant Spell to boost its range.
Soul Cage, Hellish Rebuke and Feather Fall, all reactions, have similar verbiage to Counterspell, so chances are the designers did not intend for Distant to be used effectively with these spells. On the other hand, they could have made four mistakes. Unlikely though.
I'd personally house rule that it makes no logical sense to be able to double the range of a spell with metamagic but have a baked-in restriction like that on the reaction trigger and just allow it to happen. For logical consistency it's either that or house rule that you can't use metamagic on reaction spellcasts at all. I would ignore any discussion of the "speed of magic" as a universal constant by saying "um, it's magic."
I'd personally house rule that it makes no logical sense to be able to double the range of a spell with metamagic but have a baked-in restriction like that on the reaction trigger and just allow it to happen. For logical consistency it's either that or house rule that you can't use metamagic on reaction spellcasts at all. I would ignore any discussion of the "speed of magic" as a universal constant by saying "um, it's magic."
Magic is just science that isn't completely understood yet. 🙄
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
My interpretation is that Distant Spell doesn't work here, because the trigger has to occur before you actually cast the spell, meaning before you apply Metamagic. In the same way that you cannot cast Shield before you're actually hit by an attack or targeted by Magic Missile, you can't cast Counterspell until you see a creature casting a spell within 60' of you. And since you haven't cast Counterspell yet, you cannot have used Distant Spell to boost its range.
My interpretation is that Distant Spell doesn't work here, because the trigger has to occur before you actually cast the spell, meaning before you apply Metamagic. In the same way that you cannot cast Shield before you're actually hit by an attack or targeted by Magic Missile, you can't cast Counterspell until you see a creature casting a spell within 60' of you. And since you haven't cast Counterspell yet, you cannot have used Distant Spell to boost its range.
But the Distant Spell description says ”When you cast a spell...” meaning that it happens as you cast the spell, not after, meaning you could very well see someone casting a spell 70’ away, begin to cast Counterspell, then Distant Spell it to increase the range, because the increase to range happens when you begin to cast the Counterspell.
To people saying that Distant Spell wouldn't actually increase the ’baked in restriction’, while Counterspell may say ”1 reaction, which you take when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell”, that doesn't automatically mean that that isn't also the range of the spell. In other words, just because it doesn't say the word ’range’, that doesn't mean it isn't the range, so just because the asterisk on Counterspell doesn't say the word ’range’, that doesn't mean that the 60’ isn't classified as ’range’, and that it can't be affected by the Distant Spell. The Distant Spell description says it doubles the range of the spell, not necessarily the number with the word ”Range” beside it.
My interpretation is that Distant Spell doesn't work here, because the trigger has to occur before you actually cast the spell, meaning before you apply Metamagic. In the same way that you cannot cast Shield before you're actually hit by an attack or targeted by Magic Missile, you can't cast Counterspell until you see a creature casting a spell within 60' of you. And since you haven't cast Counterspell yet, you cannot have used Distant Spell to boost its range.
But the Distant Spell description says ”When you cast a spell...” meaning that it happens as you cast the spell, not after, meaning you could very well see someone casting a spell 70’ away, begin to cast Counterspell, then Distant Spell it to increase the range, because the increase to range happens when you begin to cast the Counterspell.
To people saying that Distant Spell wouldn't actually increase the ’baked in restriction’, while Counterspell may say ”1 reaction, which you take when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell”, that doesn't automatically mean that that isn't also the range of the spell. In other words, just because it doesn't say the word ’range’, that doesn't mean it isn't the range, so just because the asterisk on Counterspell doesn't say the word ’range’, that doesn't mean that the 60’ isn't classified as ’range’, and that it can't be affected by the Distant Spell. The Distant Spell description says it doubles the range of the spell, not necessarily the number with the word ”Range” beside it.
The thing is, you couldn't even begin tocast the spell unless the trigger happened. You couldn't increase unless you cast it, and therefore, you couldn't target someone farther away with distant.
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My interpretation is that Distant Spell doesn't work here, because the trigger has to occur before you actually cast the spell, meaning before you apply Metamagic. In the same way that you cannot cast Shield before you're actually hit by an attack or targeted by Magic Missile, you can't cast Counterspell until you see a creature casting a spell within 60' of you. And since you haven't cast Counterspell yet, you cannot have used Distant Spell to boost its range.
But the Distant Spell description says ”When you cast a spell...” meaning that it happens as you cast the spell, not after, meaning you could very well see someone casting a spell 70’ away, begin to cast Counterspell, then Distant Spell it to increase the range, because the increase to range happens when you begin to cast the Counterspell.
To people saying that Distant Spell wouldn't actually increase the ’baked in restriction’, while Counterspell may say ”1 reaction, which you take when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell”, that doesn't automatically mean that that isn't also the range of the spell. In other words, just because it doesn't say the word ’range’, that doesn't mean it isn't the range, so just because the asterisk on Counterspell doesn't say the word ’range’, that doesn't mean that the 60’ isn't classified as ’range’, and that it can't be affected by the Distant Spell. The Distant Spell description says it doubles the range of the spell, not necessarily the number with the word ”Range” beside it.
You're missing the point. The trigger condition has to be met BEFORE you can cast Counterspell, and Distant Spell doesn't become active UNTIL you cast Counterspell, which means the triggering condition must have already been met BEFORE Distant Spell was active, therefore the 60' in the trigger is still 60'.
This whole argument really doesn't matter. It's up to the individual DMs to decide. As for me, not being a rule nazi, I would allow it as it seems to me to be in the spirit of the game (even though I hate counterspell).
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Is Distant Spell a viable option for Metamagic? It only works for edge cases, but if your DM throws spells from distances a lot, should I take it?
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YMMV on this one. The RAW states that when a creature within 60 ft that you can see begins casting a spell, you can counter spell it. While the range of the spell gets doubled, it doesn’t seem to change that you’re still required to see the guy 60ft away for it to work. I’d work with your DM on this one. The intention seems to be there with the spells range correlating with the text, but it might not fly at every table.
Overall though, if no one else has it, Counterspell is a good choice to have, and 60 ft is fairly generous unless all of their spell casters are flying around.
Distant Spell affects the Range of a spell. Counterspell has a range of 60 ft. Distant Spell doubles the range so the range becomes 120 ft. This means if you see a creature within 120 ft of you casting a spell you can use Distant Spell Counterspell to attempt to stop it.
This is RAW. This is RAI. This is balanced. This is clear, defined and not open to interpretation. If you DM is saying no to this I would suggest asking them why they're going against the RAW/RAI of this very clearly defined facet of the metamagic and spell and why they did not make you aware beforehand they were changing how Distant Spell or Counterspell works before you could choose them.
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Apologies if this is a necro, I picked up this topic from a metacrawler search, scanned the sticky in the immediate forum didn't see anything relating to a statute for necros.
Emphasis my own in your quote. Distant spell only affects the range of spells when you cast them. Counterspell specifically calls out within its' spell block text a condition which MUST be met as written within the Casting Time header. That conditional requires (a reaction and) you to see the target casting the spell you wish to counter AND for that target to be within 60 ft of you; if you don't have both of those conditions, you are not entitled to the specific reaction: counterspell.
Simply knowing the metamagic feature does not change the range of the spell (until you cast it) and even if it did (which it doesn't), it has absolutely no effect on the specific casting time conditional within the spell block text. This casting conditional and the range of the spell (which happen to be the same in this instance) are two separate entries within the spell block text and should not be conflated. Spells do what they say and say what they do, period, full-stop.
In short, you could increase the range of counterspell to 120 ft, however, it would be moot as you MUST be within 60 ft of your target, they MUST be casting a spell, and you MUST see them doing so. This essentially wastes the additional 60 ft range and 1 sorc point as you'll already be within 60 ft or you will not have triggered your reaction to counter.
counterspell range 60 ft
distant spell, double the range. that makes it usable to 120 ft.
not sure what's hard about this. as long as you can see the target 120 ft away it's usable at 120 ft with distant spell
the wording is no different then if magic missile said you shoot at a creature you can see within 120 ft
Read the message above you. Even if you use Distant spell, it doesn't change the trigger, which is seeing a creature within 60 feet of you cast a spell. Magic missile has no such requirement, along with most other spells.
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I'm with Unsu and Yharim on this one. Look at the actual details page for Counterspell. The importance is not that the default "Range/Area" is set to 60 ft, but that the "Casting Time" of "1 Reaction *" (that asterisk supplement is definitive) has the restriction of 60 ft. You can meta that spell all you want, but it will never work past 60 ft because the restricting factor is not the spell itself; it is the character.
If you want an analogy, look to Projectile Physics (in a fantasy world, yes, I know). A spell that traverses across any distance is going to have an initial velocity (speed), and an acceleration that is either zero (static velocity), a constant (value doesn't matter), or dynamic (formula doesn't matter). Why do these things that don't matter actually matter? TIME.
If a spell (with a casting time <= 1 action) is capable of crossing a certain distance, even when modified with metamagic, we can assume that it will cross that distance during the round. A full round is 6 seconds of "real time". A reaction is a fraction of that; blink of the eye, really. We don't have specific information about the speed of Counterspell, but we do have time and distance. In particular, since the spell's description of casting time has a direct reference to a specific distance (not the Range/Area), the logic is as follows:
Therefore, we can conclude that while Distant Spell can technically be applied to Counterspell, it would be a complete waste to do so. You could send a Counterspell up to 120 ft away from you, but it won't get there in time to actually stop the enemy from finishing their own spell first.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Thanks Unsu for the necro and the knowledge. My guess is that “60 feet of you” should read “range” as the intent is probably for Distant Spell to be effective. But RAW, Distant Spell is not effective and I don’t see anything in the PHB errata or Sage Advice that would reverse that. Looks like my sorcerer will take Empowered rather than Distant at level 10.
It does actually read as Range. But it reads as range in plain English rather than technical jargon of somehow marking and calling out the word as special and applying to the typical range of the spell.
Which is the argueing point that many people are using. they are trying to differentiate the plane English statement of how the spell works (target you see within 60 feet) and the technical aspect of that plain language (target you see within the range of the spell which is typically 60' without other modifiers to it) and you fit certain factors then you can use this spell to it's intended effect.
I'm not sure if I understand your intended point. The spell does have a standard range entry of 60 feet that is no different from any other spell's range, and that range can be affected by Distant Spell. However, that is not the limitation specific to Counterspell which makes Distant Spell useless with it.
As I mentioned in a previous post, the limitation is time. Counterspell has a specific requirement attached to the casting time. In order to successfully cast the spell as a reaction (which is the only time you can use the spell anyway), the target of the spell must be "a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell". That's a static requirement, and is not affected by Distant Spell.
Whether the spell could hypothetically traverse a distance greater than 60 feet or not is irrelevant. If the target casting a spell is not within 60 feet of you, it is not possible to successfully cast the spell to begin with.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
The complication comes because there is a 60' specified as the range of the spell and a 60' specified in the text of the trigger. Distant Spell increases the range of the spell, but by RAW has no effect on the text of the trigger. If the text of the trigger had been "which you take when you see a creature within Counterspell's range casting a spell", then absolutely you could use Distant Spell to Counterspell out to 120'.
My interpretation is that Distant Spell doesn't work here, because the trigger has to occur before you actually cast the spell, meaning before you apply Metamagic. In the same way that you cannot cast Shield before you're actually hit by an attack or targeted by Magic Missile, you can't cast Counterspell until you see a creature casting a spell within 60' of you. And since you haven't cast Counterspell yet, you cannot have used Distant Spell to boost its range.
Soul Cage, Hellish Rebuke and Feather Fall, all reactions, have similar verbiage to Counterspell, so chances are the designers did not intend for Distant to be used effectively with these spells. On the other hand, they could have made four mistakes. Unlikely though.
I'd personally house rule that it makes no logical sense to be able to double the range of a spell with metamagic but have a baked-in restriction like that on the reaction trigger and just allow it to happen. For logical consistency it's either that or house rule that you can't use metamagic on reaction spellcasts at all. I would ignore any discussion of the "speed of magic" as a universal constant by saying "um, it's magic."
Magic is just science that isn't completely understood yet. 🙄
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Best answer with no pseudo-science explanation.
But the Distant Spell description says ”When you cast a spell...” meaning that it happens as you cast the spell, not after, meaning you could very well see someone casting a spell 70’ away, begin to cast Counterspell, then Distant Spell it to increase the range, because the increase to range happens when you begin to cast the Counterspell.
To people saying that Distant Spell wouldn't actually increase the ’baked in restriction’, while Counterspell may say ”1 reaction, which you take when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell”, that doesn't automatically mean that that isn't also the range of the spell. In other words, just because it doesn't say the word ’range’, that doesn't mean it isn't the range, so just because the asterisk on Counterspell doesn't say the word ’range’, that doesn't mean that the 60’ isn't classified as ’range’, and that it can't be affected by the Distant Spell. The Distant Spell description says it doubles the range of the spell, not necessarily the number with the word ”Range” beside it.
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Send help pleaseThe thing is, you couldn't even begin to cast the spell unless the trigger happened. You couldn't increase unless you cast it, and therefore, you couldn't target someone farther away with distant.
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You're missing the point. The trigger condition has to be met BEFORE you can cast Counterspell, and Distant Spell doesn't become active UNTIL you cast Counterspell, which means the triggering condition must have already been met BEFORE Distant Spell was active, therefore the 60' in the trigger is still 60'.
This whole argument really doesn't matter. It's up to the individual DMs to decide. As for me, not being a rule nazi, I would allow it as it seems to me to be in the spirit of the game (even though I hate counterspell).