I’ve been reading older forum posts discussing various warlock/sorcerer/paladin/fighter builds. Thus far, I only see a payoff for the common 17/3 build which allows the character to retain 9th level spells. My personal preference is Warlock 17/Sorcerer 3 or vice versa. Although, I see the benefit of adding a little Paladin or Fighter to your Hexblade...
I just wonder how folks rationalize forgoing powerful features like High Level Mystical Arcanum for low level versatility and extra DPR. As your level increases, so will the CR of the bad guys. Suddenly, your multiclassed character (with max 5th level spells slots) is facing powerful spells casters with much higher-level spells.
Maybe I’m missing the bigger picture about min/maxing? Or perhaps these builds assume the player doesn’t intend to take the character to 20th or beyond. It seems like it would be very easy to get carried away and multiclass yourself into a hot mess: Look I'm a 10th level Sorcadinlock! I can Smite like a mother@#$!..but that's pretty much it!
So, here’s my question:
Would you forgo any or all Mystical Arcanum for certain warlock multiclass builds? If so, which builds? Why or why not?
Due to some story reasons (namely, my warlocks patron gaining enough strength as a god to actually bestow upon him divine power) my own character has started down his road to a rethemed ancient paladin (still all about life of course, just more of living and not of nature.) Currently sitting at level 5 (4 war and 1 pali) and even though I didn't nab myself that sweet multi attack for my pact weapon I'm still keeping up with the others. I'll probably end up throwing more into paladin and be less of a spellcaster more of a melee anti spellcaster. Since his CHA was 20 out if the gate I can invest in all sorts of feats like mage slayer to really mess those high level spellcasters days.
The way i see it though is less of a warlock with paladin levels and more of a paladin eith warlock. I get some invocations, the range power of eldritch blast, hex and hexblade curse for that added damage, and CHA for all my attacks. Mix that with short rest smites plus the ability to use the paladin spells for other spells such as hex and I can really rip into a target. Is it minmax? Not really though I do try to make sure I don't completely gimp myself.
Er right. So yeah, I'm forgoing the mystics for a Spellbreaker sorta build of a warlock(hexblade)/Paladin(ancients) to ruin spellcasters days. Decent HP plus the ancients resistance aura and its protection aura means all my saves get a +5 and magic is half as effective at damage. Paladin gives me the HP, defense, and smite while Warlock makes me SAD and gives me some versatility in spells (not high level of course but thats not the point.) Dunno what level I'll get to but I plan to go the next 6 in paladin then nab level 5 warlock for an extra invocation and 3rd level short rest spell slots. Maybe get the ability to teleport as a bonus action towards a hexed target for that extra "you can't hide from me spellcaster" feel.
I'm currently playing a multiclass Rogue / Warlock Hexblade and the reason for doing it was more for concept than trying to get the most damage I could out of my character. Like KageAcuma, my character is more a Rogue who has some Warlock abilities than a Warlock. The Mask of Many Faces Invocation helps him infiltrate a place by disguising himself as someone else and the ability of the Pact of the Blade weapon to appear and disappear means my character can walk into a place unarmed, and then all of a sudden have the most appropriate weapon at his hands. My character is built around social skills like deception, so being able to focus on Charisma as my main stat for attacking helps my character be more effective in combat.
Our DM has said he expects our characters to max out at level 15, so I am less focused on the high level abilities of the class.
I don't think I really plan on multiclassing any character I make for awhile as I want to really get a feel for the classes in fifth edition before I mix/match. Also, I enjoy the idea of multiclassing for the sake of your RP, your story, over direct power. Below is my character my reasons for not multiclassing my warlock at the moment if you want to read it.
My Warlock I actually don't want to Multiclass (Partially because I want to feel it out as long as possible, and partially story reason). he is essentially a Cambion (before I knew that existed) he is the son of a Succubus, a Tiefling with every fiendish trait I can give him. I play him as a Hexblade who gets his abilities from another fiend he is bound to. We are playing more of a good campaign, so I play him as trying to prove that even though he is borderline an actual devil, and is using magic granted to him by a different Devil, he is trying to be the best person he can be, and that means showing that even borderline "Evil" powers can be used in a good way. I know it's fairly cliche, first character in MANY years.
I cannot tell you offhand how many characters I have. What I mean by this is, I have never gotten any character all the way to 20 before we started over with a new campaign. So planning out what I'm gonna have/not have by the time I get to 20 has been and continues to be a futile effort. The farthest I have gotten with any character is 17, and one 16, and one 14. And a whole stack of 5/6s. Not sure how many others have experienced this. But for those who do experience this fairly regularly, it may be useful to determine if you think the campaign you are entering is going to actually take you all the way, and then plan your progression based on the expected life of the character.
I cannot tell you offhand how many characters I have. What I mean by this is, I have never gotten any character all the way to 20 before we started over with a new campaign. So planning out what I'm gonna have/not have by the time I get to 20 has been and continues to be a futile effort. The farthest I have gotten with any character is 17, and one 16, and one 14. And a whole stack of 5/6s. Not sure how many others have experienced this. But for those who do experience this fairly regularly, it may be useful to determine if you think the campaign you are entering is going to actually take you all the way, and then plan your progression based on the expected life of the character.
THIS. I'm amazed at how many people on forums like this one map out their characters entire level progression from 1 to 20 without a) knowing whether their campaign even has a chance of running that long, most don't, or b) having any idea where the story will take their character. But for a lot of them, character leveling is purely about mechanics, and has very little to do with storytelling. I can't play D&D that way, if I want that kind of experience I'll play video games.
So planning your character progression is a bad thing? There is no reason that planning your character build and storytelling have to be mutually exclusive.
Even if you’re not an optimizer it’s still fun to have a little foresight about the future. Isn’t character building and campaign building what DND is all about?
The issue isn't necessarily mapping out your characters, it's the DETAILED mapping out that seems a little odd. If I have a level 1 character, I will have a concept, what I want to build towards and whatnot, maybe some ideas of spells or feats I want to take eventually, but I won't go trying to plan each level up to 20 because I will probably never get there.
I personally never really even look at what is available by 20, I've never in 7-8 years of playing D&D have gotten close to level 20.
So planning your character progression is a bad thing? There is no reason that planning your character build and storytelling have to be mutually exclusive.
Even if you’re not an optimizer it’s still fun to have a little foresight about the future. Isn’t character building and campaign building what DND is all about?
I think multiclassing requires some planning ahead, at least in terms of when you are going to take levels in your second class and how many. However, since most campaigns never reach level 20, mapping the character out that far doesn't make sense for a lot of players. If I'm going to multiclass, I will map out through the second class dip. Once my character reaches that point, I just plan ahead for the next level and don't look further than that.
Indeed. I plan ahead for multiclassing, but it's really only out to about level 10, and it's not as detailed as some folks like to do. If we manage to get past that, then I'll worry about that at that time. Plus, one never knows if one is going to gain a piece of interesting loot that changes the plan a little. I don't need to spend a lot of time analyzing for something that isn't clear is ever gonna happen. I have other intellectual exercises I need to do, since this isn't the only game I play. Obviously other folks have other priorities.
I don't need to spend a lot of time analyzing for something that isn't clear is ever gonna happen. I have other intellectual exercises I need to do, since this isn't the only game I play. Obviously other folks have other priorities.
Ouch! An Eldritch Blast across the bow...
Is level 20 really such a fairy tale for everyone? Does no one play high level campaigns???? I would ask why folks keep grinding out stacks of new lower level characters...not so different than planning one or two capstone builds.
I’m going to speculate that a lot of you have character commitment issues...Wham! I said it!
I just don’t want to risk optimizing for 10 then end up at 17 or above without Foresight (haha) or True Polymorph. Imagine how all my warlock friends would point and laugh!
Admittedly, I spend too much time obsessing about my character....I guess I need a few of those “other priorities”.
I don't need to spend a lot of time analyzing for something that isn't clear is ever gonna happen. I have other intellectual exercises I need to do, since this isn't the only game I play. Obviously other folks have other priorities.
Ouch! An Eldritch Blast across the bow...
Is level 20 really such a fairy tale for everyone? Does no one play high level campaigns???? I would ask why folks keep grinding out stacks of new lower level characters...not so different than planning one or two capstone builds.
I’m going to speculate that a lot of you have character commitment issues...Wham! I said it!
I just don’t want to risk optimizing for 10 then end up at 17 or above without Foresight (haha) or True Polymorph. Imagine how all my warlock friends would point and laugh!
Admittedly, I spend too much time obsessing about my character....I guess I need a few of those “other priorities”.
I would love to have a character make it to level 20 as I am quite attached to the characters I play in two separate D&D groups. However, the campaigns that I've played in the past ended either because the campaign story was finished or the group fell apart before level 20. In the current campaigns, one of the DM has stated that the campaign is only up to level 15, the other DM hasn't given a character level for the end of his campaign, but said he didn't expect us to make it to 20. So not having a character make It to level 20 has nothing to do with character commitment, just the difficulty of keeping a group together for the time to make it to level 20 or the interest in a DM for running a campaign that goes to those level.
I see your point. If I knew there was a hard cap of level 15 on my campaign I wouldn’t worry so much about giving up mystic Arcanum. I might even go for a crazy build like 6 warlock 5 sorcerer and 4 Bard just to get as much utility as I can. Hmmm that doesn’t sound as bad...
It might also help if WOTC had more products for High-level campaigns. My group is trying to figure out how to tackle Storm Kings Thunder starting at level 8 without skipping the first five chapters...We made characters a few months ago and nobody is ready to start again...I still haven’t even finished my backstory.
I don't know about big builds and whether to keep mystic arcanum or not but all I know is I made a warlock/sorcerer and with the Pact of the Tome and Sorcerer it's cantrip heaven.
Please allow me to explain. Frankly, since I don't DM, I am restricted to what's being played in my area. Across several game shops, nobody has for the last several years, as far as I have seen, had a campaign going at Tier 4. So Tier 4 is a once in a very long while special event that happens around here, usually only at a convention. Consequently there's generally no reason to plan for Tier 4, because chances are, I will never play that character at Tier 4. Would I really like to play my Open Hand Monk at tier 4? You betcha. But generally campaigns around here last less than a year, and then new campaigns are started all over with the newest books,, and new characters at Tier 1. So do I have any Tier 4 characters that I planned out all the way to where they are now? Yup, I have two. Really like them. But I never get to play them, except maybe at a convention, IF I manage to preregister in time to get into the one tier 4 game that is usually being hosted. So, new books resulting in new campaigns at least once a year, you know. And by the time I get these - maybe - close to Tier 4, we'll see another new book and start another new campaign. So, no, there's not much need here to plan for level 20.
I am with you on multiclassing for RP not power but I also don't want to feel like im being punished for trying to make my character more unique or pursuing his story.
I am DM'ing a game we started at level 2, and one of the players started as a Rogue (1), Warlock (1). As far as I can tell, a poor min/max choice, but he had a cool backstory in mind on how he was a ranger, was overcome by foes, and then was rescued by his patron. His charisma and dexterity are both tied at 16, too! I look forward to honoring and making that choice as cool as possible as a DM.
Anyway, to answer the OP, that's an example of a reason to delay certain warlock features - interesting role play choices.
I've got an HB 7 / Rogue 3 that is going to level up soon. I'm certainly going to go HB 8, which gives me an ASI to max out the CHA stat.
But, with Rogue 3, I could easily add another ASI, or a Feat. But this would put a level 9 spell (and a 4th spell slot...) out of reach. If we even get to level 20...
Is level 20 really such a fairy tale for everyone? Does no one play high level campaigns???? I would ask why folks keep grinding out stacks of new lower level characters...not so different than planning one or two capstone builds.
5E mechanics essentially make PC's de facto gods by the time they reach level 15, so I think people get bored.
Not the exact same thing my campaign we started as single class lvl 3 but I was ganna start taking lvls in warlock at lvl five. I ultimately decided against it though because RP wise my character didnt seem right becomeing a spell caster other than maybe a sorcerer and not yet. I want my next expertise as a rogue soon because this was my first real character and I we made him wrong so my first expertise which i think i got at lvl 2 (so i started with it) was used wrong and I gave myself additional profs instead of making me better at one i had. This sucks!
PS
I am starting my own campaign as the DM now and I think warlocks get jipped on spell slots so a cool magic item for your warlock would probably be appreciated. What I would suggest is (if they went pact of the blade) give them a weapon that restores a spell slot when it kills things. Even make it harder by making them roll for and they have to get above 6 on a d10. or maybe only on crit hits. or perhaps they have to deal a certain amount of damage to the creature when they kill it like 50% of its max hp, or a flat amount (though i wouldnt do a flat amount because then its really easy as they get higher in lvl). If you think this would be to powerful then you can always make it only work once or twice before resting. and as they lvl up you can make them find quests and other chances to enhance the weapon to give it more charges.
I’ve been reading older forum posts discussing various warlock/sorcerer/paladin/fighter builds. Thus far, I only see a payoff for the common 17/3 build which allows the character to retain 9th level spells. My personal preference is Warlock 17/Sorcerer 3 or vice versa. Although, I see the benefit of adding a little Paladin or Fighter to your Hexblade...
I just wonder how folks rationalize forgoing powerful features like High Level Mystical Arcanum for low level versatility and extra DPR. As your level increases, so will the CR of the bad guys. Suddenly, your multiclassed character (with max 5th level spells slots) is facing powerful spells casters with much higher-level spells.
Maybe I’m missing the bigger picture about min/maxing? Or perhaps these builds assume the player doesn’t intend to take the character to 20th or beyond. It seems like it would be very easy to get carried away and multiclass yourself into a hot mess: Look I'm a 10th level Sorcadinlock! I can Smite like a mother@#$!..but that's pretty much it!
So, here’s my question:
Would you forgo any or all Mystical Arcanum for certain warlock multiclass builds? If so, which builds? Why or why not?
Due to some story reasons (namely, my warlocks patron gaining enough strength as a god to actually bestow upon him divine power) my own character has started down his road to a rethemed ancient paladin (still all about life of course, just more of living and not of nature.) Currently sitting at level 5 (4 war and 1 pali) and even though I didn't nab myself that sweet multi attack for my pact weapon I'm still keeping up with the others. I'll probably end up throwing more into paladin and be less of a spellcaster more of a melee anti spellcaster. Since his CHA was 20 out if the gate I can invest in all sorts of feats like mage slayer to really mess those high level spellcasters days.
The way i see it though is less of a warlock with paladin levels and more of a paladin eith warlock. I get some invocations, the range power of eldritch blast, hex and hexblade curse for that added damage, and CHA for all my attacks. Mix that with short rest smites plus the ability to use the paladin spells for other spells such as hex and I can really rip into a target. Is it minmax? Not really though I do try to make sure I don't completely gimp myself.
Er right. So yeah, I'm forgoing the mystics for a Spellbreaker sorta build of a warlock(hexblade)/Paladin(ancients) to ruin spellcasters days. Decent HP plus the ancients resistance aura and its protection aura means all my saves get a +5 and magic is half as effective at damage. Paladin gives me the HP, defense, and smite while Warlock makes me SAD and gives me some versatility in spells (not high level of course but thats not the point.) Dunno what level I'll get to but I plan to go the next 6 in paladin then nab level 5 warlock for an extra invocation and 3rd level short rest spell slots. Maybe get the ability to teleport as a bonus action towards a hexed target for that extra "you can't hide from me spellcaster" feel.
I'm currently playing a multiclass Rogue / Warlock Hexblade and the reason for doing it was more for concept than trying to get the most damage I could out of my character. Like KageAcuma, my character is more a Rogue who has some Warlock abilities than a Warlock. The Mask of Many Faces Invocation helps him infiltrate a place by disguising himself as someone else and the ability of the Pact of the Blade weapon to appear and disappear means my character can walk into a place unarmed, and then all of a sudden have the most appropriate weapon at his hands. My character is built around social skills like deception, so being able to focus on Charisma as my main stat for attacking helps my character be more effective in combat.
Our DM has said he expects our characters to max out at level 15, so I am less focused on the high level abilities of the class.
I don't think I really plan on multiclassing any character I make for awhile as I want to really get a feel for the classes in fifth edition before I mix/match. Also, I enjoy the idea of multiclassing for the sake of your RP, your story, over direct power. Below is my character my reasons for not multiclassing my warlock at the moment if you want to read it.
My Warlock I actually don't want to Multiclass (Partially because I want to feel it out as long as possible, and partially story reason). he is essentially a Cambion (before I knew that existed) he is the son of a Succubus, a Tiefling with every fiendish trait I can give him. I play him as a Hexblade who gets his abilities from another fiend he is bound to. We are playing more of a good campaign, so I play him as trying to prove that even though he is borderline an actual devil, and is using magic granted to him by a different Devil, he is trying to be the best person he can be, and that means showing that even borderline "Evil" powers can be used in a good way. I know it's fairly cliche, first character in MANY years.
I cannot tell you offhand how many characters I have. What I mean by this is, I have never gotten any character all the way to 20 before we started over with a new campaign.
So planning out what I'm gonna have/not have by the time I get to 20 has been and continues to be a futile effort. The farthest I have gotten with any character is 17, and one 16, and one 14. And a whole stack of 5/6s. Not sure how many others have experienced this. But for those who do experience this fairly regularly, it may be useful to determine if you think the campaign you are entering is going to actually take you all the way, and then plan your progression based on the expected life of the character.
So planning your character progression is a bad thing? There is no reason that planning your character build and storytelling have to be mutually exclusive.
Even if you’re not an optimizer it’s still fun to have a little foresight about the future. Isn’t character building and campaign building what DND is all about?
The issue isn't necessarily mapping out your characters, it's the DETAILED mapping out that seems a little odd. If I have a level 1 character, I will have a concept, what I want to build towards and whatnot, maybe some ideas of spells or feats I want to take eventually, but I won't go trying to plan each level up to 20 because I will probably never get there.
I personally never really even look at what is available by 20, I've never in 7-8 years of playing D&D have gotten close to level 20.
Indeed. I plan ahead for multiclassing, but it's really only out to about level 10, and it's not as detailed as some folks like to do. If we manage to get past that, then I'll worry about that at that time. Plus, one never knows if one is going to gain a piece of interesting loot that changes the plan a little. I don't need to spend a lot of time analyzing for something that isn't clear is ever gonna happen. I have other intellectual exercises I need to do, since this isn't the only game I play. Obviously other folks have other priorities.
Ouch! An Eldritch Blast across the bow...
Is level 20 really such a fairy tale for everyone? Does no one play high level campaigns???? I would ask why folks keep grinding out stacks of new lower level characters...not so different than planning one or two capstone builds.
I’m going to speculate that a lot of you have character commitment issues...Wham! I said it!
I just don’t want to risk optimizing for 10 then end up at 17 or above without Foresight (haha) or True Polymorph. Imagine how all my warlock friends would point and laugh!
Admittedly, I spend too much time obsessing about my character....I guess I need a few of those “other priorities”.
I would love to have a character make it to level 20 as I am quite attached to the characters I play in two separate D&D groups. However, the campaigns that I've played in the past ended either because the campaign story was finished or the group fell apart before level 20. In the current campaigns, one of the DM has stated that the campaign is only up to level 15, the other DM hasn't given a character level for the end of his campaign, but said he didn't expect us to make it to 20. So not having a character make It to level 20 has nothing to do with character commitment, just the difficulty of keeping a group together for the time to make it to level 20 or the interest in a DM for running a campaign that goes to those level.
I see your point. If I knew there was a hard cap of level 15 on my campaign I wouldn’t worry so much about giving up mystic Arcanum. I might even go for a crazy build like 6 warlock 5 sorcerer and 4 Bard just to get as much utility as I can. Hmmm that doesn’t sound as bad...
It might also help if WOTC had more products for High-level campaigns. My group is trying to figure out how to tackle Storm Kings Thunder starting at level 8 without skipping the first five chapters...We made characters a few months ago and nobody is ready to start again...I still haven’t even finished my backstory.
I don't know about big builds and whether to keep mystic arcanum or not but all I know is I made a warlock/sorcerer and with the Pact of the Tome and Sorcerer it's cantrip heaven.
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Please allow me to explain. Frankly, since I don't DM, I am restricted to what's being played in my area. Across several game shops, nobody has for the last several years, as far as I have seen, had a campaign going at Tier 4. So Tier 4 is a once in a very long while special event that happens around here, usually only at a convention. Consequently there's generally no reason to plan for Tier 4, because chances are, I will never play that character at Tier 4. Would I really like to play my Open Hand Monk at tier 4? You betcha. But generally campaigns around here last less than a year, and then new campaigns are started all over with the newest books,, and new characters at Tier 1.
So do I have any Tier 4 characters that I planned out all the way to where they are now? Yup, I have two. Really like them. But I never get to play them, except maybe at a convention, IF I manage to preregister in time to get into the one tier 4 game that is usually being hosted. So, new books resulting in new campaigns at least once a year, you know. And by the time I get these - maybe - close to Tier 4, we'll see another new book and start another new campaign. So, no, there's not much need here to plan for level 20.
I am with you on multiclassing for RP not power but I also don't want to feel like im being punished for trying to make my character more unique or pursuing his story.
SilverSummons
I am DM'ing a game we started at level 2, and one of the players started as a Rogue (1), Warlock (1). As far as I can tell, a poor min/max choice, but he had a cool backstory in mind on how he was a ranger, was overcome by foes, and then was rescued by his patron. His charisma and dexterity are both tied at 16, too! I look forward to honoring and making that choice as cool as possible as a DM.
Anyway, to answer the OP, that's an example of a reason to delay certain warlock features - interesting role play choices.
I've got an HB 7 / Rogue 3 that is going to level up soon. I'm certainly going to go HB 8, which gives me an ASI to max out the CHA stat.
But, with Rogue 3, I could easily add another ASI, or a Feat. But this would put a level 9 spell (and a 4th spell slot...) out of reach. If we even get to level 20...
5E mechanics essentially make PC's de facto gods by the time they reach level 15, so I think people get bored.
i litterally almost did this.
Not the exact same thing my campaign we started as single class lvl 3 but I was ganna start taking lvls in warlock at lvl five. I ultimately decided against it though because RP wise my character didnt seem right becomeing a spell caster other than maybe a sorcerer and not yet. I want my next expertise as a rogue soon because this was my first real character and I we made him wrong so my first expertise which i think i got at lvl 2 (so i started with it) was used wrong and I gave myself additional profs instead of making me better at one i had. This sucks!
PS
I am starting my own campaign as the DM now and I think warlocks get jipped on spell slots so a cool magic item for your warlock would probably be appreciated. What I would suggest is (if they went pact of the blade) give them a weapon that restores a spell slot when it kills things. Even make it harder by making them roll for and they have to get above 6 on a d10. or maybe only on crit hits. or perhaps they have to deal a certain amount of damage to the creature when they kill it like 50% of its max hp, or a flat amount (though i wouldnt do a flat amount because then its really easy as they get higher in lvl). If you think this would be to powerful then you can always make it only work once or twice before resting. and as they lvl up you can make them find quests and other chances to enhance the weapon to give it more charges.
SilverSummons